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News: Tim Bray: Java is boring

  1. Tim Bray: Java is boring (73 messages)

    "Java is boring...You won't get fired for choosing Java", says XML co-inventor and industry veteran Tim Bray. Marking his first anniversary at Sun, Tim has blogged about where things are at Sun and the industry as a whole, what's good, what's boring, and what's not boring.

    While his remarks about Java may seem negative, 2005 is Java's 10th anniversary and these statements are actually a good sign of the maturity and ubiquity of the Java platform.

    What's boring, according to Tim Bray:
    So, what do you think about when you think about Sun? Computers, networks, operating systems... and Java. There's the problem, because Java is boring. Java is the safe choice. Java is COBOL. You won't get fired for choosing Java. Banks use Java. Telephone companies use Java. CIOs like Java...it's not exciting. J2EE isn't either. EJBs aren't either. Generics and autoboxing and variable-length argument lists are good things, but they’re not exciting.
    What's not boring:
    What's Not Boring? Cellphones aren't boring (of all the J2*E's, I like one with 'M' the best). Open Source isn't boring. Dynamic languages aren't boring. Web services and SOA aren’t boring, but we may have to destroy that village in order to save it. High-level support for CMT/TLP isn't boring. Extreme Programming and Agile Development and Test-Driven Development aren't boring. Ajax isn't boring. Distributed applications based on RSS/Atom syndication aren’t boring. UBL isn’t boring.
    Read One Sun Year, Tim Bray's analysis of how Sun's doing.

    Threaded Messages (73)

  2. XML is boring :)[ Go to top ]

    ...as hell.

    Artur
  3. XML is very boring[ Go to top ]

    and dense
  4. XML + schmea ..[ Go to top ]

    .. is much more boring. :(
  5. IMO the next logical step is to combine Java and XML.

    Once that is achieved, you don't have to synchronize UML (class) diagrams and Java code, why ... because the Java-editor and Uml-editor would use the same sourcecode file!

    But there is more. Based on a general approved XSD file, you can store information like transactions, security, pooling, pre-post conditions, design-by-contract, testing etc also in the same sourcecode file!

    With annotations in version 5 some of these issues are taken care of, but with a Java/XML combination much more can be done.

    Of course i don't want to suggest to write a Java program with an xml editor. It is up to the tool builders to present the sourcecode in exactly the same way as today, with additional wizzards to set transaction, security on the class or method(s).

    One final point. Once UML and javacode are synchronized automatically, the promise of model-driven-architecture realy could become reality.

    This is not boring :)
  6. Isn't this what Jelly is?
  7. WOW!!!! Sign me up!!! Can I invest? When do you kick off?
  8. If you work with uml and java on the same sourcecode file, there would be no more need for a java editor, IMO :)
    If you could express all via uml why you should limit your app to java?

    I think MDA and XMI try to achieve this.
  9. If you work with uml and java on the same sourcecode file, there would be no more need for a java editor, IMO :)

    For ordinary programming task, like implementing logic in the java methods, a state-of-the-art Java editor is still needed. But the point is that in a slit second one should be able to switch between the UML and Java view (and eventually deploy en test view)
  10. If you work with uml and java on the same sourcecode file, there would be no more need for a java editor, IMO :)
    For ordinary programming task, like implementing logic in the java methods, a state-of-the-art Java editor is still needed. But the point is that in a slit second one should be able to switch between the UML and Java view (and eventually deploy en test view)

    Then you are working in two different abstraction levels and should not mix them in one sourcefile because that are different informations. if you could implement the logic of methods via uml (AFAIK rudimentary possible in UML2) there is _theoretically_ no more need for a java editor. But i would never replace my eclipse against rational rose :)
  11. UML Modelling[ Go to top ]

    Ever seen someone model a for-loop in UML? It's a joke!

    For some things you are better off using code. UML has its place (defining architecture, for example), but as a means of implementing 'logic' it will never replace good old text.
  12. Then you are working in two different abstraction levels and should not mix them in one sourcefile because that are different informations

    Why not?, for example the J2ee specs dictates that info like security, transaction, mapping etc is stored in other (descriptor) files. But soon many realized that this is not practical, hence techniques like doclets appeared and now this practise is more or less formalised with annotations.
    But i would never replace my eclipse against rational rose :)

    You absolutely right, neither would i. The point is that it is up to the tool builders to give you the possibility to edit in the UML view with something like Rose, and edit the javacode with something like Eclipse.
  13. But i would never replace my eclipse against rational rose :)
    You absolutely right, neither would i. The point is that it is up to the tool builders to give you the possibility to edit in the UML view with something like Rose, and edit the javacode with something like Eclipse.

    Eclipse has UML plugins. MDUML (beware: cheap but not free) integrates with many IDEs. And there are more integrated tools. IIRC, the one with the least integration opportunities, if you exclude automatic code generation, is exactly Rational Rose. But I stopped using it in 2000, so I may be wrong.

    However, the idea is that you can already do this with the existing tools. Although I would be very cautious about exploiting the various UML-code-UML "round-trip" options given by these tools.
  14. Although I would be very cautious about exploiting the various UML-code-UML "round-trip" options given by these tools.

    That is exactly the reason why Java and XML should be combined. Store the Javacode, UML info, deployment descriptor info and more in ONE xml file, and there is no such thing as a UML-code-UML roundtrip anymore!
  15. Oh Lordy. I can't tell if you guys are serious or are just being sarcastic. UML info, descriptor info *and more*??? Why have all that crap to keep in sync in the first place? How about having exactly one canonical reprsentation of any fact?

    I think it's time to look at Rails if this is where Java is heading....
  16. Although I would be very cautious about exploiting the various UML-code-UML "round-trip" options given by these tools.
    That is exactly the reason why Java and XML should be combined. Store the Javacode, UML info, deployment descriptor info and more in ONE xml file, and there is no such thing as a UML-code-UML roundtrip anymore!

    I don't think so. UML also pretends to have semantics and a metamodel, so putting some XML representation of UML in the Java code doesn't mean a lot by itself. What does the compiler do with it? Well, to transform it into an executable form, it would have to follow a formal definition of UMLs semantics. Unfortunately such a thing does not exist. All MDA vendors invent their very own proprietary UML sematics. It's a complete hack and that's not how the kind of industrial scale software production that they envision will ever materialize.
  17. Initially i would not blow up this off topic. But after these replies i will be a little bit more clear.
    IMO the next logical step is to combine Java and XML. Once that is achieved, you don't have to synchronize UML (class) diagrams and Java code, why ... because the Java-editor and Uml-editor would use the same sourcecode file!
    How you wanna mix the two different meta levels? You wanna blow up the model with the code? Then the model source is getting really big. Or you wanna spread the model meta infos around all class files? Though they are allready there. IMO there is no need to mix up Java with XML. Java is a specific programming language with a well known syntax to describe Java programs. XML is a common markup language to describe everything you could transform into a textual form. So you can describe UML and Java via XML. XML by themself is no useable language to program. Its good to transport, store an exchange data, but not to write more complex code as seen in JSTL.
    I think what you are dream about is to link the model with the code. And that is what MDA try to achieve.
    Ever seen someone model a for-loop in UML? It's a joke!
    I have never seen someone coding in UML. But with UML2 and the Action Semantics it should be able to express individual instructions. And if i can do _theoretically_ the same things in UML like in Java (i believe and hope it would not happen soon) then it would be good to have only one sourcefile. But then its no need for a Java editor anymore. Why should i leave my modeling tool if i can program with it? Just to limit my application to one target platform?
    for example the J2ee specs dictates that info like security, transaction, mapping etc is stored in other (descriptor) files. But soon many realized that this is not practical, hence techniques like doclets appeared and now this practise is more or less formalised with annotations.
    IMO it is better to maintain meta data in one _simple_ xml file rather then in the source code. So i can easily replace it for a different enviroment and have not to step through all source files. Thatswhy i like the Spring Dependency Injection Approach more than the EJB 3.0 Annotations. And i think a big reason for using XDoclet is to help creating all the interfaces.
    Eclipse has UML plugins.
    Yes, and Rational Rose XDE is based on Eclipse.
  18. IMO it is better to maintain meta data in one _simple_ xml file rather then in the source code. So i can easily replace it for a different enviroment and have not to step through all source files. Thatswhy i like the Spring Dependency Injection Approach more than the EJB 3.0 Annotations. And i think a big reason for using XDoclet is to help creating all the interfaces.

    Actually the dependency injection is really more of a J2EE thing than an EJB thing, and it can be done in XML instead of in annotations. We proposed exactly that in the J2EE group and it has been accepted. You should see it in the next draft.

    -Mike
  19. The audacity of the "author" of something as sickeningly mundane as XML to complain that Java is boring.. It makes me indignant, although it is humorous at the same time.. The Java programming language is the most significant advance in Computer Science.. In fact, Cobol and Fortran were also significant advances.. XML has been a step backwards and has spawned a generation of verbose dunces who think great programming is preceding every instance of a field in a database query with it's column name.. Or having arguments over which is the best XML parser, SAX or DOM.. In the old days we wrote an XML parser during lunch.. What is worse, it has had a deadening effect on creative poeple having an interest in programming.. It's like going from arabic numerals to Roman numerals..
  20. XML is worse than boring..[ Go to top ]

    The audacity of the "author" of something as sickeningly mundane as XML..

    As someone who has, over several decades, had to spend long hours dealing with obscure, proprietary, undocumented text and binary files, often devised by amateurish coders who thought it would be 'neat' to invent their own format, I consider XML to be one of the most important advances in IT in a very long time.

    If the alternative to boredom is to be given a binary file, with no idea of the format, the data word length, or the byte order and having to extract data from it within a deadline.. I would rather be bored!
  21. XML is boring[ Go to top ]

    ...as hell. Artur
    +1
  22. XML is boring[ Go to top ]

    I am amazed that so many ppl just read the title and jump on a conclusion. Please read the whole article. I think the author is actually bragging about the Java language.....

    +1
  23. Boredom[ Go to top ]

    At this point in this ridiculous thread, I - like most of you by now I hope - am bored.
    Not from the number of posts and the content of the Tim Bray article, but at how few people have actually got the message. I don't consider myself especially smart, but I think he's saying that boring=good. Things that succeed become mainstream, which is boring, as we tend to think.
    So stop taking his words at face value and consider the meaning for a moment.
  24. Java + XML is double boring :)[ Go to top ]

    ...life is also boring
  25. I think he's braying not blogging[ Go to top ]

    eom
  26. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    All that works is boring to Tim, things like COBOL, Java, etc.
    They can try other things less boring like M$ Solutions. It´s very exciting, you never now what will happen tomorow, today the program works, tomorow the same program crashes without sense, all this stuff is exciting.

    I prefer still using boring tecnologies like java, at least, projects where I have worked using boring tecnologies WORK.
  27. After all these years[ Go to top ]

    I can't believe the development community is still giving these w3c wonks permission to speak in public.
  28. Tim Bray[ Go to top ]

    ...is boring.
  29. aren't all geeks boring[ Go to top ]

    is that still true? or is it hip now to be a geek?
  30. Tim Bray[ Go to top ]

    ...is boring.
    +1
  31. Tim Bray is boring[ Go to top ]

    ...is boring.
    +1
    +2
  32. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    "May you live in interesting times"
  33. Tim is full of hot air. I saw him give a speach over 5 years ago on the Semantic Web and web services..it was boring.

    Tim Bray is boring..you know why? cause he doesn't do anything. He doesn't deliver anything. He just talks about pie in the sky stuff.

    Who pays him and why?
  34. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    One who ever supported a mission-critical production system and carried a pager over weekend (no beer, no beach) would agree that it must be build on something boring...

    Yes, when I was a student we did a lot of fun things in the research lab too...
  35. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    Mr. Bray - were you drunk/high when you wrote that? This is the most nonsensical dribble drabble I've ever seen a respectable guy like you ever write.

    It's not about bleeding edge - its about the end goal: driving down the cost of business while increasing shareholder value all the while not forgetting the moral virtues of "social capital." It's called business you numnut - and if Sun shares your views on that subject, I can no longer surprised at your company's pathetic P&L quarter-after-quarter.
  36. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    ... Java is boring. Java is the safe choice. Java is COBOL. You won't get fired for choosing Java. Banks use Java. Telephone companies use Java. CIOs like Java...

    One man's excitement is another's boredom.... but I find it nice to hear all these nice things about Java. Not too long ago, Java was the rebel language that you had to fight for the right to use in your company. Now it's just accepted as "what you use". I like that.
  37. This thread is boring...
  38. This thread is boring...[ Go to top ]

    All the people here are boring persons due to Java focus.
  39. This thread is boring...[ Go to top ]

    So sad: another flamebait TSS thread nipped in the bud.
    Suggestion: combine Bray and Tollerud for improved incendary effect.
  40. This thread is boring...[ Go to top ]

    This thread is boring...

    +1
  41. TheServerSide.Com is boring[ Go to top ]

    TheServerSide.Com is boring
  42. This thread is boring...[ Go to top ]

    absolutely boring
  43. This thread is boring...[ Go to top ]

    You guys are just a bunch of boring posters writing boring stuff on boring subjects.

    And I'm pretty much sure that not all of you are canadians.

    And at least, canadians invented Basketball and the Chocolate Nut Bar...and Java, a boring programming language.
  44. This thread is boring...[ Go to top ]

    You guys are just a bunch of boring posters writing boring stuff on boring subjects.And I'm pretty much sure that not all of you are canadians.And at least, canadians invented Basketball and the Chocolate Nut Bar...and Java, a boring programming language.

    I'm English. We invented Cricket. I'll say no more.
  45. This thread is boring...[ Go to top ]

    I'm English. We invented Cricket. I'll say no more.

    I'm American. We invented the incredibly useful concept of 'illegal combatants' to get around the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War.

    Could you britts and Canadians had done better than us?

    Nah, I didn't think so.
  46. but who invented curry[ Go to top ]

    I hear there's Curry chef visa's!!!
    </joke>
  47. but who invented curry[ Go to top ]

    I hear there's Curry chef visa's!!!</joke>

    The indians created curry but i dont think thats boring though tasty would be the right word... hmm am hungry now
  48. Cellphones aren't boring (of all the J2*E's, I like one with 'M' the best). Open Source isn't boring. Dynamic languages aren't boring. Web services and SOA blah blah blah...

    Oh! I get it! You really mean Java is no longer hyped.
    On the other hand, Web services and SOA are more hyped than interresting.
  49. Java might appear boring because it has not recently taken on bigger challenges. I would like to see Java take on challenges like:
    - Adopting more compact control flow instructions like it is done in many scripting languages like Python and others.
    - I want to see domain specific scripting for mathematical programming like matrix algebra, fuzzy arithmetics, ..etc.
    - Better and easier ways to do parallel programming, especially with new multi-core processors from Intel/AMD/Sun/IBM. There has to be a way to make this more seamless.
    - I also want to see a new spin-off language based on Java for the gaming industry. Most games now are written in C++ (yak!). This is a clear failure of the Java team. I am confident that a special spin-off of Java could be written to increase speed to approach the C++ performance while keeping some of the Java niceties like modularity, JIT, standard libraries,..etc. Such new language would be almost source-code compatible with Java but would eliminate the things that make Java slower than C++, including garbage collection and type checking. It is possible.

    There are many challenges ahead.
  50. - I also want to see a new spin-off language based on Java for the gaming industry. Most games now are written in C++ (yak!). This is a clear failure of the Java team. I am confident that a special spin-off of Java could be written to increase speed to approach the C++ performance while keeping some of the Java niceties like modularity, JIT, standard libraries,..etc. Such new language would be almost source-code compatible with Java but would eliminate the things that make Java slower than C++, including garbage collection and type checking. It is possible.There are many challenges ahead.
    Release a virtual machine with optional but sound build-in opengl/direct 3d support and release frequent updates to allow for new releases of open gl and direct 3d.
    This could trigger an actual revolution: OS independed Games. I'm all for such an initiative. Would make both the console and the PC industry more competitive.

    This would also make me believe open sourcing Java becomes more of an importance. Now it's Microsoft, Sony, etc... Java based games would make it Sun, period.
  51. I also want to see a new spin-off language based on Java for the gaming industry. Most games now are written in C++ (yak!). This is a clear failure of the Java team.

    My impression is that the games industry is very conservative - for them, C++ is considered rather modern!
    I am confident that a special spin-off of Java could be written to increase speed to approach the C++ performance while keeping some of the Java niceties like modularity, JIT, standard libraries,..etc. Such new language would be almost source-code compatible with Java but would eliminate the things that make Java slower than C++, including garbage collection and type checking. It is possible.There are many challenges ahead.

    I believe that the improving Hotspot technology is making such considerations increasingly unnecessary. Many of the checks that Java performs are be often done once only then be optimised out by the Hotspot system, and there are garbage collection techniques that have little impact on performance. I really don't think a statement like 'Java slower than C++' is generally true anymore. Also, I believe Java will have significant benefits in the near future as a language that naturally fits with the multi-core nature of future PC processors. JVM designers have years of experience of dealing with memory management and garbage collection on multi-threaded systems.

    I have always thought that one of Java big advantages is that it is a very simple and clean language, without a lot of the baggage of, say, C++. I don't want to see that much change.

    There is one small thing I would personally like, as I have to write a lot of business logic: an extension of math operators to java.math* subclasses of java.lang.Number. For example, I'd love to be able add BigDecimals together in a way that was easily readable...
  52. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    Uncle Tim Bray is saying that java is boring ..she is also boring ..
    God , what i do
  53. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    yeah, java the language is a bit boring, and that's a good thing. But there are some pretty interesting things going on in the *Java world*. Compare the Java world to the Lisp world (or substitute your favorite sexy-as-hell language here): we all know that pretty much everything was invented first in Lisp, and you can do pretty much anything you can do in another language (plus some, (a *big* some)), but how many people are writing stuff in Lisp that will make all of our lives more interesting? I'm thinking free and open-source tools like IntelliJ and Eclipse, frameworks like Spring and the other IOC containers, cool shizzle like AspectJ, AspectWerzk, or Hibernate, and infrastructure like JBoss.

    Substitute Python or whatever your favorite language is (I personally *love* Python), but I'd argue that the "Java World" is more exciting at the moment than any other space that's large enough to be of interest to people doing enterprise-type programming (which is a good percentage of people who program for a living, and also happens to be isomorphic with the space that will actually pay my rent and feed me).
  54. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    Lately, TSS got even more boring than Java. But I think that is a good thing -- at least it allows me to do some work (implementing an exciting SOA framework, for instance.)

    SCNR, Lars
  55. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    It seems some people didn't bother reading article, its pretty obvious that headline was a joke. Some people just don't get irony I guess.
    But there is more. Based on a general approved XSD file, you can store information like transactions, security, pooling, pre-post conditions, design-by-contract, testing etc also in the same sourcecode file!

    Yuck! We just spent a decade getting SQL out of Java with Hibernate and DAO, why would you want to infest it with XML?
    With annotations in version 5 some of these issues are taken care of, but with a Java/XML combination much more can be done

    I think XDoclet & annotations are rape. Mixing Java & SQL is bad. Mixing Java & HTML ("<% ... %>"-style) is bad. Mixing Java & XML would be bad. Mixing is bad period. Whenever you mix one kind of source with another one suffers, because source will inevitably be focused on one or the other. Developing Java in a HTML-centric environment sucked. Developing SQL or HTML in a Java-centric environment sucked.
    Java might appear boring because it has not recently taken on bigger challenges. I would like to see Java take on challenges ...

    Orthogonal persistence?
  56. Read the blog.[ Go to top ]

    It's a criticism of Sun, not Java.

    This thread is boring.
  57. What?[ Go to top ]

    What is he trying to say?
  58. Tim Bray: Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    Bored people write boring stuff...
  59. Heaven and Hell :)[ Go to top ]

    Hi "Tim" pls read below, Hope it would clear all of ur doubts and then better decide what u would like to learn J or COBOL.


    Once old man was sitting in the park reading book "learn Java in 21 days"
    A passer by saw him and asked "U are such an old guy, why do you bother to learn Java?"
    "I have heard that communication language at heaven is Java so after my death
    when I will be in heaven, I don't want to face communication problem."
    old man replied.

    " But how come are U so sure that U will be in heaven? It could be a hell also." he asked.
    "Ya, that doesn't matter .... I already know COBOL" .

    Give Me J
    Sanjeev
    SCJP 1.4/SCBCD 1.3
  60. WS and SOA aren't boring[ Go to top ]

    Web services and SOA aren’t boring, but we may have to destroy that village in order to save it.

    Uh-oh! Another subtle hint from Sun. Remember the "Five keys unlock the gate" article from last month's TSS news? Few people perceived it, but it stated that the gate might remain locked. Maybe they think that the current incarnation of WS is starting to be perceived as a failure.

    And BTW, I found the article very interesting.
  61. Java on its way to OS...[ Go to top ]

    "Open Source" and "Operating System"

    This may be a sign that there is internal pressure to open source Java.

    Java is boring? Because Sun has such a tight grip on it? Open Source, even if written in Java, is "Exciting"?

    The writing is on the wall.

    If Java were Open Source, it would be 1000x as ubiquitous as COBOL because of the rate of growth of global commerce and the establishment of global communications by big telecom.

    The need for global communications has increased exponentially in the face of a stagnating economy. The opportunity is there to ensure the existence of the Java language for a very long time.

    SUN, IMHO, should open source the language and let the games begin - the primary differentiator in their market will be the ability to support the most Java applications with their hardware at the lowest cost.

    If you free it, and it comes back to you its yours forever.

    The terms "Java" and "wrench" could go down in the annuls of history as two things that had vast positive impact on society.

    I hope his statements are a sign of things to come.

    Hold on too tightly...

    Hell, maybe SUN and IBM will merge into the AT&T of network end host system infrastructures.
  62. Java on its way to OS...[ Go to top ]

    If Java were Open Source, it would be 1000x as ubiquitous as COBOL because of the rate of growth of global commerce and the establishment of global communications by big telecom.

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it there is no current barrier to open source Java. Anyone could write it, and provided it passed the compatibility tests, it could be called 'Java'. The VM spec, the language spec, and the core APIs are all published. Anyone can write clean-room implementations of Java, and many have, but so far none have been open source.

    The demands for 'open source Java' are, in reality, a demand to Sun to release their source code under an open source license.

    As the 'open source community' has produced Linux, Gnome, KE, Mono and thousands of other products, I'm a bit puzzled as to why the production of a high-quality clean-room Java implementation should be so difficult.
  63. Java on its way to OS...[ Go to top ]

    Java is boring, because when you talk java at a party, you end up going home alone. However, last night, I just impressed two hot chicks with my .Net knowledge and had a great threesome.
  64. Tim Bray : Java is boring[ Go to top ]

    Its boring when you are lonely... and he's right Java being right on top... nothing matches Java.. Java is all alone on top and its boring to be alone... Right Mr Braaaay?
  65. XML and XQuery is fun[ Go to top ]

    how can you say xml is boring? BOO BOOO :( :( :(

    L. Kim
    http://www.webheadstart.org
  66. It's true[ Go to top ]

    Yep, I'm pretty boring most times (hey, I'm from Canada), but XML, now that's *really* boring.
  67. This is so...[ Go to top ]

    I am amazed that so many ppl just read the title and jump on a conclusion. Please read the whole article. I think the author is actually bragging about the Java language.....
  68. It's true[ Go to top ]

    What's really boring a bunch of computer geeks posting messages at a message board talking about what technologies they think are boring...how much closer to not having a pulse can you get?
    Hell, Tim and I are from Canada, what's everyone else's excuse?
  69. It's true[ Go to top ]

    So, we meet again:

    http://www.jroller.com/page/mkeith/20041028

    ...and you are still saying things to get attention :-)

    I would disagree, but FWIW I quite doubt that even you believe what you say!
  70. I dont think either....

    May be it is boring coz,
    it is so widely and extensively used.
    The obvious choice for many is Java and so finally it has become so common that we're bored of it.
  71. I am not sure whether Tim Bray is trying to be sarcastic or what , but a comment from a high regard person like him from the software community, you just wondered if he thinks is that his invention (XML) is not boring. XML is the most boring technology ever emerges in recent times. It is a clone or derivative of SGML which the ground-work was already done by Professor Knuth decades ago. So nothing is new in XML and I am surprised that it is being hyped up to a level which makes Java (the true non-boring state-of-the-art modern technology) sounds inferior. XML is boring and inferior to Java, end of story.

    If Tim Bray finds Java is boring then he should have joined the expert group for RTSJ (Real Time Specification for Java), where James Gosling was involved . Gosling mentioned about a year ago, that RTSJ was the longest JSR to mature and completed, where applications such as real-time-control-systems for running an air-craft carrier is now possible to be developed in Java. Sun and their real-time engineers demonstrated using RTSJ by a demo of running the CART (auto-regression) control systems algorithms on a computer screen. Can XML applicable in such applications ? Very minimal or even does not apply. Now I called the CART demo by Sun's real-time control engineers as exciting not boring according to Tim Bray. His XML is boring.

    cheers,
    sione.
  72. XML isn't Boring at all[ Go to top ]

    XML is the most boring technology ever emerges in recent times. It is a clone or derivative of SGML which the ground-work was already done by Professor Knuth decades ago.

    XML can be rather exciting - it is great to be able to design your own data format knowing that there are hundreds of tools and libraries out in the IT world which will be able to process your format. Even better, the extensibility means that other developers can extend your format or embed your data in other files without breaking usability - its an incredibly powerful idea.
    XML is boring and inferior to Java, end of story.

    XML is neither inferior or superior to Java. One is a file format, the other is a programming language. It is hard to see how they can be compared.
    If Tim Bray finds Java is boring then he should have joined the expert group for RTSJ (Real Time Specification for Java), where James Gosling was involved . Gosling mentioned about a year ago, that RTSJ was the longest JSR to mature and completed, where applications such as real-time-control-systems for running an air-craft carrier is now possible to be developed in Java. Sun and their real-time engineers demonstrated using RTSJ by a demo of running the CART (auto-regression) control systems algorithms on a computer screen. Can XML applicable in such applications ?

    Of course it can, and it is: see MinML, which is a parser designed to run in very small memory sizes. There are plenty of other projects to allow XML to be run in such environments. After all, its a useful format.

    One of these days, someone will explain to me why there seems to a gut reaction against XML from so many developers. I have found it to be a hugely useful technology.
  73. Tim Bray: You are boring[ Go to top ]

    Tim Bray: Java is boring

    Boring is not an Objective reult of an Objective evaluation.

    Next time make a phone call to such people after they go out of bed and take a shower to help them realize what the are saying.
  74. As a technical and managerial person i believe Tim Bray is not against java nor any other creation. He just wants to see how popular is Java. The first instance we all saw this topic we clicked on it to say how dare any one say so about Java and we happen to spend some time adding comments to this article.

    So Guys as a business responsibility Tim was checking the pulse of Java and did not do any thing to harm our sweet little Java which can do wonders.