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News: Oracle & MS lead appserver platforms over IBM & BEA - Forrester

  1. YABAR - Yet another businessy analyst report from Forrester has been released, this one comparing the top vendors of "application server platforms", what Forrester calls a stack that combines an appserver, portal server, and integration server together. After scoring 7 top vendors by 300 criteria, the report positions Oracle and MS as leaders, and BEA, IBM, Sun, SAP as "strong performers."

    In The Forrester Wave: Application Server Platforms Q1 2005 (pdf), Forrester analysts take a look at the current landscape of application server platform vendors and then evaluate the top 7 by the strength of their current offerings, corporate strategy, and market presence.

    Like most analyst reports, the results were not based on real world field experience but a combination of "hands-on lab evaluation, [vendor] demos, and vendor documentation to gather information on each of the seven platforms."

    The conclusion:
    Oracle and Microsoft provide the leading platform choices. Oracle has a surprising range of functions for composite application development and management, as well as a surprising degree of integration between the components of its application platform suite. Oracle scored high on all of the Forrester Wave's Current Offering criteria but had particularly strong administration and management features, compared with the other vendors. Oracle's costs are also comparatively low, and the company has dramatically expanded its market presence during the past two years. Microsoft also scored well across the board with its features, overcoming the negative impact of incomplete integration between its platform components. The gaps between the Windows Server, BizTalk Server, and SharePoint Portal Server, for example, create boundaries between development tools, which add complexity. The same is true of management tools. Microsoft's biggest assets in the comparison, however, were its productive development tools and its strong strategy. On the Forrester Wave diagram, Microsoft's market presence appears to be smaller than it really is because Microsoft declined to provide key data for that set of scores.
    IBM, BEA, SAP, and Sun are strong performers. IBM and BEA almost equaled Microsoft’s functionality scores. BEA created the market for application server platforms and has a strong product. WebLogic Platform’s current shortcomings in administration and management are scheduled to be eliminated in a 2005 release. IBM’s overall functionality is strong, but integration between its WebSphere platforms is weak. In addition, IBM’s scores also suffered because the company segments some key development and management functions into some of its other products. The strategy scores of both BEA and IBM were also driven down by their relatively high prices and other costs, compared with the leaders.

    Whatever.

    Threaded Messages (242)

  2. What kind of report is this?[ Go to top ]

    Availability and Reliability:
    BEA: 2.35
    Oracle: 4.35?!?
    Microsoft: 3.05????

    This can mean two different things:
    1) Most of Enterprise Architects are stupid and they throw away their budget using expensive and non-reliable BEA solutions instead of cheap and highly reliable Microsoft solutions, or
    2) This is just FUD.

    This document is a joke.
    Diego
  3. What kind of report is this?[ Go to top ]

    Microsoft's market presence appears to be smaller than it really is because Microsoft declined to provide key data for that set of scores.

    Although very likely, it still sounds like FUD to me, like the rest of this report

    +1
  4. What kind of report is this?[ Go to top ]

    FUD means "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt"

    There's no Uncertainty or Doubt - this report was paid for by Oracle and/or Microsoft. So this cannot be FUD - it's just F.
  5. Was it paid by Ora/MS[ Go to top ]

    this report was paid for by Oracle and/or Microsoft.

    Really? How to know?
  6. Was it paid by Ora/MS[ Go to top ]

    this report was paid for by Oracle and/or Microsoft.

    Really? How to know?

    I assume that you wouldn't pay for a report if the recommendation didn't include your offering, so the implication is that the vendor paying for it is the vendor getting recommended. Having witnessed it myself in the past, I would find it hard to defend the report.

    On the other hand, for a certain size of company in the USA, Microsoft is the dominant middleware platform vendor. I think it's a mistake to ignore that. That Microsoft's dominance doesn't carry overseas or into the enterprise is a different argument.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  7. The "Forrester Wave" type of reports are not something you can "buy". I asked around here (Oracle) and we didn't buy this report.
    The report is based on hands on experience with the products.
    You can Contact Forrester for more info.
  8. The report wasn't paid for by Oracle[ Go to top ]

    I think it was very sweet of you ;-)
  9. I once worked in the management of one of the vendors mentioned in this reports and believe me: such reports are bought in most cases.
    I can not say if this report has been bought. But I know that my former employee bought reports (esp. at Gartner) that "compared" their product against competitors. And, surprise: they always won!
  10. but I knew that already[ Go to top ]

    "That Microsoft's dominance doesn't carry overseas or into the enterprise is a different argument"

    You are wrong.
    For mission-critical application projects, Microsoft is at the top.

    From the Forrester report:
    "In the next two years, for mission-critical application projects, which of the following application platforms will be used for projects that receive at least 10% of your enterprise’s development investments?"

    Microsoft .NET 54%
    Java/J2EE 46%
    IBM mainframe 24%
    Proprietary rapid development tools 12%
    CORBA 3%
    Other 28%
    Don’t know or not applicable 8%

    Sometimes in the future you, Steve, Peter and others will come to your senses and realize that we are not living in 2000 anymore.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  11. but I knew that already[ Go to top ]

    "In the next two years, for mission-critical application projects, which of the following application platforms will be used for projects that receive at least 10% of your enterprise’s development investments?
    "Microsoft .NET 54%
    Java/J2EE 46%

    Come on now Rolf, we have been through all this in detail. For these figures to mean anything you need to show the degree to which these are competing, as against being used in different contexts, or even together. For example, we know that Java/J2EE (whatever that is supposed to mean) is primarily server side, whereas at least some .NET is being used as an upgrade for the highly popular but now abandoned Visual Basic 6.

    As you have quoted Forrester, let me do the same:

    "As opposed to .NET being a J2EE killer, it was really a Microsoft saver"

    Anyway, I thought you now believed Ruby was going to take over the world?
  12. Steve, I am not saying that I am infallible (except as a joke!).

    But if you combine Vic's posts + the Forester report + other info you bound to have,

    - you have to admit that the situation now in 2005 is very different from for the situation for 3 years ago. Search old post (everything is saved in TSS), and you will see that I was the only one that saw it. Can you not give me at least some credit???

    "The only true satisfaction for the intellectual is a successful prediction"

    Dynamic languages are the future but it will take a while. In the meantime Java/.NET will pick up bits and pieces of the Ruby innovations.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  13. Steve, I am not saying that I am infallible (except as a joke!).But if you combine Vic's posts + the Forester report + other info you bound to have,- you have to admit that the situation now in 2005 is very different from for the situation for 3 years ago.

    Only a day or two ago, you were saying that C# and Java had stayed at a constant relative percentage of each other for over 2 years. Indicating (according to your figures) no change in the relative numbers of developers for a long time. Make your mind up.
    Search old post (everything is saved in TSS), and you will see that I was the only one that saw it. Can you not give me at least some credit???

    No, as that would be no fun.
    "The only true satisfaction for the intellectual is a successful prediction"

    No-one can see into the future; you can't even see into the present: Remember such classic statements "Nasdaq runs on .NET technology" and "There are no high-performance sites that run on J2EE/EJB"?
    In the meantime Java/.NET will pick up bits and pieces of the Ruby innovations.

    Well, I have already presented evidence elsewhere, that you did not contract (other than with insults), that showed that the 'innovations' of Ruby are nothing that hasn't been done elsewhere and better years before.

    This reminds me of the way Microsoft calls the ability to use inheritance in VB.NET 'innovative'.

    "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"
  14. "what did I say" is my favorite![ Go to top ]

    "No-one can see into the future; you can't even see into the present: Remember such classic statements "Nasdaq runs on .NET technology" and "There are no high-performance sites that run on J2EE/EJB"?

    Both is true.

    "Only a day or two ago, you were saying that C# and Java had stayed at a constant relative percentage of each other for over 2 years"

    At a constant relative except for the little shift did I say. The little shift being that Java are loosing ca 1 percent to C# every month. Maybe you have not learnt to read? In that case go to yout old school and get your money back.

    "ability to use inheritance in VB.NET innovative"

    What are you talking bout? Maybe you could give me a link? Or better still, give me an example on you making a successful prediction.

    </í>windows server more insecure that Linux server?

    Nice try Peter, but Linux is the "bad guy" in server security on all server security sites with 35 security breaches per week. Or was it per day? ;)

    That most surely be the main reason to that MS has taken the top spot in mission-critical application projects! Do you not think so?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (cheap predictions for $10 each, come and buy!)
  15. "what did I say" is my favorite![ Go to top ]

    "No-one can see into the future; you can't even see into the present: Remember such classic statements "Nasdaq runs on .NET technology" and "There are no high-performance sites that run on J2EE/EJB"?Both is true.

    Er No. NASDAQ uses Windows 2003 Server and SQL Server, but not .NET for its main systems. You know this. You have already publically admitted that EBay is a J2EE/EJB site.

    So, 'Both is true', is false.
    "Only a day or two ago, you were saying that C# and Java had stayed at a constant relative percentage of each other for over 2 years" At a constant relative except for the little shift did I say. The little shift being that Java are loosing ca 1 percent to C# every month. Maybe you have not learnt to read? In that case go to yout old school and get your money back.

    Can't you do basic math? You can't have a monthly shift of 1% every month AND anything like a constant ratio. Open a spreadsheet and try it!

    I did try and teach you a lesson about how comparing numbers without providing evidence for what is actually going on is meaningless. Let's refresh your memory:

    Remember my job search? Well, according to monster.fr the COBOL job figure has now reached double that of VB.NET! Wow! COBOL is sure eating away at VB use!
    "ability to use inheritance in VB.NET innovative"What are you talking bout? Maybe you could give me a link?

    You obviously never read Microsoft's hype at the time that .NET was introduced:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/0400/VBNexgen/default.aspx

    "At the same time, the Visual Basic language will include several constructs developers have long asked for that will bring it in line with the kind of object-oriented programming techniques familiar to users of C++ and the Java language.
     These innovations will not be available to the public until the next version of Visual Basic is in beta."

    A strange new use of the word 'innovation', isn't it.. bringing something into line with something else.
    Or better still, give me an example on you making a successful prediction.

    As for a successful prediction. I predict Rolf Tollerud will keep spouting FUD on TSS.

    Well, you could always prove me wrong!
  16. Steve, I am not saying that I am infallible (except as a joke!).But if you combine Vic's posts + the Forester report + other info you bound to have,- you have to admit that the situation now in 2005 is

    Vic's posts? Since when are those credible sources of information? I think Vic's posts just disqualified the rest of this thread from ever being taken seriously.
  17. but I knew that already[ Go to top ]

    "That Microsoft's dominance doesn't carry overseas or into the enterprise is a different argument"

    You are wrong.For mission-critical application projects, Microsoft is at the top.

    If you say so, it must be the God-given truth, since (after all!) you are a programmer working on a departmental CRM system that has been in development for ten years that no one has ever even heard of.

    Of course, if you consider Excel spreadsheets as supporting part of a company's critical mission, I just might have to give it to you ..

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  18. Cameron, why don't you keep to something you know? Like how to persist session information in a cluster! So very useful! What should i do without it? (bewildered).

    But why don't you study salesforce.com a little? You could learn a lot...

    With all due respect
    Rolf Tollerud
    Ninja of 19th degree
  19. P.S.[ Go to top ]

    If I can convince salesforce to buy a copy of Coherence do I get a percentage?
  20. http://www.salesforce.com/products/security.jsp

    Just look at the extensive security measures that salesforce.com employs in their setup. Are you telling me the internal CRM application you work on matches that level of security? An internal CRM application on a LAN does not need most of the things salesforce.com does for security. It would be an incredible waste of resources and huge overhead. It is the exact opposite of being fast, easy, light-weight and simple.

    Just look at their description of the database security features. Like I said before, the techniques one uses for an internal CRM application are very different than one built to handle thousands of companies using web browser as the primary interface. Unless you're saying the CRM you work on matches salesforce on all levels.

    peter
  21. salesforce is not invincible[ Go to top ]

    Peter,

    "Unless you're saying the CRM you work on matches salesforce on all levels"

    I do not work on any CRM system, departmental or otherwise. There are neither the funds nor the time to do so. It is only Cameron that is a little lax in his definition of honesty as is his wont. What happened was that I said that I "was envious on salesforce.com and though that I could do better". That is something different.

    And why are you talking about an "internal application"? No one (except Cameron) are taking on anything else than a competitor to salesforce.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  22. Put your foot where your mouth is[ Go to top ]

    I do not work on any CRM system, departmental or otherwise. There are neither the funds nor the time to do so. What happened was that I said that I "was envious on salesforce.com and though that I could do better". That is something different.And why are you talking about an "internal application"?

    RegardsRolf Tollerud

    I'm gonna call your bluf on this. How could you build a better salesforce.com if you don't even understand the technical requirements from development, security, maintenance, and hosting perspective. That would be like someone saying, I know how a wheel works; therefore I can build a F15 fighter.

    Are you really saying that just because you're a programmer that somehow you magically know all the nitty gritty details of what is needed to build an application like salesforce.com. If that were true, there would be a half dozen competitors. Since there aren't 6 sites like salesforce.com, one could reason it's much harder than it looks. In fact, from my own experience building medium to large applications, I would say it's very hard.

    Salesforce.com has managed to make something very complex appear simple. That is why they are successful, not because they are doing something easy. You really should apply to salesforce.com and try to get a job there. That way, you'll realize what it really takes, rather than extrapolating from your own limited experience.

    peter
  23. Peter,

    A good idea. Most times you answer me (that is how I feel) with something completely unrelated. Salesforce offer a 30 days free trial, excellent. Just register and I will do the same (choose "generic" as industry template). So maybe this time we will manage to keep to the subject!

    I have already done that. I also have set up a temporary mail, tss_lin at yahoo dot com

    Use this mail and add me as additional user when you register your salesforce-account. Send me an email so I can add you as a user in my account.

    The first thing I will like to prove is that "if you use the dich-client with no state at the server technique" there are no difference between the departmental application and world wide no-holds-barreled application, from the programmer viewpoint,

    let's go
    Rolf Tollerud
  24. tell you what[ Go to top ]

    I will glady sign up for a free trial, once you describe to me how you go about setting a secure site to handle 500 concurrent SSL connections and how that impacts the design and implementation of the entire architecture. I've already gone through this kind of exercize. A programmer would be foolish to think that it has no impact on the architecture and implementation. Anyone that has worked on secure sites will know what I am hinting at.

    peter
  25. Peter,

    Setting a secure site to handle 500 concurrent SSL connections is boring "engineer-work" that had nothing to do with me as a programmer. We, the creative software developers are supposed to stand for the inventive and innovative part of the project. Let me put it another way, as Formula One driver, do you tinker with the mechanics of the car?

    People that can set up a secure site to handle 500 concurrent SSL connections is a dime a dozen. But it is not my job.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  26. You're full of it[ Go to top ]

    Peter,
    Setting a secure site to handle 500 concurrent SSL connections is boring "engineer-work" that had nothing to do with me as a programmer. We, the creative software developers are supposed to stand for the inventive and innovative part of the project. Let me put it another way, as Formula One driver, do you tinker with the mechanics of the car?

    People that can set up a secure site to handle 500 concurrent SSL connections is a dime a dozen. But it is not my job.

    RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Just like I thought. You have no clue how to setup a site to handle those kinds of loads, or how it impacts application design. Since you don't know I'll just mention a few things.

    1. say I require client certificates. it means the application needs to manage intelligently handle client certificates, but it also means the entire system must use SSO. This is necessary because load has to be distributed correctly, otherwise it could crash some systems.

    2. SSL is heavy on resources, so it means sending as little as possible to the client. A design which sends a ton of encrypted data over the internet is going to severely impact cost due to bandwidth usage. But it also means a significant cost in router hardware, and type of server you buy. That most definitely impacts which software you use and the software design. Even if someone uses hardware acceleration or something like BigIP, it makes load balancing easier, but you still have to be thrifty about how much data you send.

    3. for reliability and redundancy, you have to have multiple clusters hosted in different facilities. now it means your application needs to intelligently replicate data on the backend. It also means your SSO solution needs to be able to fail over to another cluster gracefully.

    that's just the tip of the ice berg. given that you don't know the first thing about building a system like salesforce.com, I'm not gonna waste my time explaining things to you. these are things you should already know. given that you claim to have 20 years of experience.

    I'll stop ranting at you now. It's so obvious you don't know what it means to build a site like salesforce.com

    peter
  27. what do you do?[ Go to top ]

    Peter,

    My job is to program the fastest possible code in as few lines as possible. That is my speciality, what I am good at. Performance. To use as little resources as possible.

    I also like to think that I know something of web design and usability after so many years, prefering simple, clear and usable customer-focused design. But that is secondary, the most important above anything is raw speed.

    What you do I don't know. You sound like a network-technician to me.
  28. It's call designing an application[ Go to top ]

    What you do is UI design. It's just one form of building software.

    Building the necessary business logic to support a large number of users with high reliability, scalability and flexibility is what many of us working on "enterprise systems" do. Things like thinking about what data you send to which tier and how that affects the systems ability to scale. Figuring out how the domain model impacts what you display, how you display it and how you load balance. These are all critical parts of a complete system. Blinding building an application from the UI and forgetting all these factors leads to huge failures. many of us have seen this first hand and I've seen that happen more than once.

    The UI designer does his prototype without thinking about the impact it has on all the other systems, which end up performing horribly when load increases. In the end, these kinds of developers get fired and their work thrown away. I hope that's not how you design and build your application.

    good luck

    peter
  29. ?[ Go to top ]

    Peter,

    I am the artist. What you are I couldn't care less.

    You may answer when talked to and are allowed to fetch coffee!
    Otherwise keep quite.
  30. thanks for revealing your skills[ Go to top ]

    You're too funny. I've met plenty of people like you and I've also seen the CTO/Product Manager fire these types of developers. The good UI developers I know are very deligent and make sure to talk to mid-tier, backend developers and dba before making an important decision. To me, that is what being a good developer means. It means listening to the members of your team and taking time to understand exactly what each teams requirements are. Often we get into heated debates, but in the end, we come to an agreement about how to balance the requirements.

    Building an application isn't just about making pretty graphics and layout. If that's all you care about, then write single user applications. Any kind of groupware like email, websites, source control, databases and servers require careful consideration and deligence to design and build.

    sorry to everyone for being way off topic, but I couldn't resist proding Rolf.

    peter
  31. what do you do?[ Go to top ]

    Peter, My job is to program the fastest possible code in as few lines as possible.
    ERGO... "I am a monkey coder"
    That is my speciality, what I am good at.
    ERGO... "I am a good monkey coder"
    Performance. To use as little resources as possible.
    ???
    Performance != "To use as little resources as possible"

    Performance is the result of efficient and effective use of resources.
    ...the most important above anything is raw speed.

    ERGO... "I am a monkey coder that dares to speak about performance."
  32. what do you do?[ Go to top ]

    Peter, My job is to program the fastest possible code in as few lines as possible. That is my speciality, what I am good at. Performance. To use as little resources as possible.I also like to think that I know something of web design and usability after so many years, prefering simple, clear and usable customer-focused design. But that is secondary, the most important above anything is raw speed.What you do I don't know. You sound like a network-technician to me.

    You can never develop in isolation. In order to provide raw speed you obviously either need to know something about networking issues, or work with someone who does. The speed of your code will be of no consequence if that speed can't be delivered to the customer. Use of the network is one of the resources you should be minimising.

    I would suggest that many of your recent posts imply that you aren't perhaps to interested in raw speed as you suggest.. no-one could accuse Ruby of delivering raw speed!

    If raw speed is your priority, allow me to suggest raw MS-DOS with a good Smartdrive cache, and then with a good C++ compiler high speed should be no problem.... (C++ is very good at writing things in just a few lines, providing you don't care who reads it).
  33. The J2EE people confuse everything so that you don't know what is server and what is client. They love to speak about "separation of concerns" but they do not live after it. Let us take an example.

    3-4 talented software developers lead by a person that’s know what he is doing spend one year on a application and produce 100000 lines of first class, tested code. Then they have a what you could call a "killing application".

    Then, if it is correctly done, that application can be deployed departmental, enterprise or world-wide without a single code change. All depend on the setup at the server.

    Otherwise it is not done correctly. IMO

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  34. The J2EE people confuse everything so that you don't know what is server and what is client.

    No - that is what YOU are doing with so much state on the client.
    They love to speak about "separation of concerns" but they do not live after it.

    A nice evidence-free statement, and you are contradicting yourself. In one post you criticise J2EE developers for using too much in the way of 'separation of concerns' (MVC, EJBs, ORM etc). The next you say they don't do it!
    Let us take an example.3-4 talented software developers lead by a person that’s know what he is doing spend one year on a application and produce 100000 lines of first class, tested code. Then they have a what you could call a "killing application".Then, if it is correctly done, that application can be deployed departmental, enterprise or world-wide without a single code change. All depend on the setup at the server. Otherwise it is not done correctly. IMORegardsRolf Tollerud

    This is so vague and irrelevant it is looking very much like an good example of the Chewbacca defence.

    The few parts that make some kind of sense directly contradict what you have said earlier. You said that what you have experience of is situations in which you are permitted to specify the client (and not just the server setup/software) i.e. the make and version of the browser, so according to the above statement, you are not doing things correctly, as you are depending on more than the setup at the server!

    It obviously possible to set up servers and software in general purpose ways that allows deployment over a range of environments and scales. But you have given no evidence that your approaches scale this way. You say you are only interested in 'business sites' and not websites that have widespread public use, so why do you feel you are qualified to comment on 'world-wide' sites? Why not leave commenting about general purpose website development to those of us who have actually (successfully) done it?
  35. lets throw out common sense[ Go to top ]

    The J2EE people confuse everything so that you don't know what is server and what is client. They love to speak about "separation of concerns" but they do not live after it. Let us take an example.3-4 talented software developers lead by a person that’s know what he is doing spend one year on a application and produce 100000 lines of first class, tested code. Then they have a what you could call a "killing application". Then, if it is correctly done, that application can be deployed departmental, enterprise or world-wide without a single code change. All depend on the setup at the server. Otherwise it is not done correctly. IMORegardsRolf Tollerud

    Oh man that is a great joke. So in essence you're saying it is possible to build an application to fit all situations. Go ask the first person on the street you see, "do you think it's possible to build a car for every purpose?" I'm sure they'll say "no, that's not possible."

    I do believe a small team of engineers can build great software and I've seen it. But that team wouldn't include you :)

    peter
  36. can you compete with the Chinese?[ Go to top ]

    Neither do I want you on mine!

    But on the other hand you can get the job of setting up the "mix of dual or quad processor servers running Windows Server 2003 advanced edition with 4 GB RAM and 64bit CPU supporting a cluster of databases"

    Please send me an offer! I expect it all to be set up in a day or two though, which is what the Chinese has offered.

    Best regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  37. haven't you heard[ Go to top ]

    Neither do I want you on mine!But on the other hand you can get the job of setting up the "mix of dual or quad processor servers running Windows Server 2003 advanced edition with 4 GB RAM and 64bit CPU supporting a cluster of databases"Please send me an offer! I expect it all to be set up in a day or two though, which is what the Chinese has offered.

    Best regards
    Rolf Tollerud

    the last time I checked, china is moving heavily to linux. so that would be a quad CPU server running LAMP, not microsoft stack. keep on throwing insults at me. but it's clear you don't have the skills to answer technical questions when it comes to scalability.

    enjoy

    peter
  38. It is not too late![ Go to top ]

    It is quite simple really.

    Do you want to belong to the fashionable world of creative software, sophisticated, urbane, articulate or be a pompous martinet without style, grace or humor?

    It is up to you.
  39. Interestingly, salesforce.com, the company you so admire, uses J2EE</a>, and infrastructure from Sun (it started out only on Solaris, but now uses Linus as well, I believe).

    Also, they use stateful sessions on their servers.
  40. Sun is not a reliable source[ Go to top ]

    As we have seen before Steve, Sun is not a reliable source. According to Sun the whole world is running "Slowlaris" and EJB. Neither is the case with salesforce.com. They use Dell servers,
    http://www.salesforce.com/au/newsevents/press-release.jsp?year=2003&month=June&id=030623

    and definitely not EJB. They used Resin from the beginning and still are (they tried JRun for a brief period).

    Regarding their session management it seems unusual and interesting and worth looking into. In my "improvement" I had planned to use WSE Kerberos Ticket for the web service version.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  41. Who said it was sun?[ Go to top ]

    As we have seen before Steve, Sun is not a reliable source. According to Sun the whole world is running "Slowlaris" and EJB. Neither is the case with salesforce.com. They use Dell servers, http://www.salesforce.com/au/newsevents/press-release.jsp?year=2003&month=June&id=030623 and definitely not EJB.

    Wrong: from a year later than your link (2004): "Salesforce.com is both a Sun partner and customer, using Sun gear to run its CRM software service provider operation." (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/02/25/suns_services_queen_jumps_ship/) - someone from Sun joined them, transferring her Sun skills.

    Here is a job ad from this year, regarding support for data centre database hosts at salesforce. Skill required include Solaris and Oracle: http://www.craigslist.com/sfc/sof/66211787.html

    I did not mention EJBs. Why do you keep confusing 'EJB' with 'J2EE'?
    Regarding their session management it seems unusual and interesting and worth looking into. In my "improvement" I had planned to use WSE Kerberos Ticket for the web service version.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    And what is session management? It is called saving state on the server.

    It is nice to know that company you recommend we look at uses J2EE, stateful servers, Linux, Solaris and Oracle.
  42. Sun is not a reliable source[ Go to top ]

    As we have seen before Steve, Sun is not a reliable source.
    This is pretty rich coming from you Rolf. You are the once who repeatedly cites bogus data such as the original misleading pet store benchmark over and over again.
    According to Sun the whole world is running "Slowlaris"
    They never said that, but they have issued 1 million Solaris 10 licenses:
    http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=48917&DE=1

    Calling Solaris 10 "Slolaris" is laughable. Talk about an "unrelaible source". Have a look at a benchmark before you start sprouting nonsense about something you know nothing about.
    http://www.nwfusion.com/reviews/2005/022805solaristest.html
  43. I'll glady shutup[ Go to top ]

    It is quite simple really. Do you want to belong to the fashionable world of creative software, sophisticated, urbane, articulate or be a pompous martinet without style, grace or humor? It is up to you.

    You seem quite angry and irritated that I asked questions you couldn't answer. for that I apologize. I had no idea you have no experience in these areas. My goal was to get technical information, not resort to silly philosophical/literary quotations. I've provided technical points, to which you have not been able to address. Instead, you choose call others names. If I've offended your sensibilities, I apologize. All you need to do is answer with hard technical facts and details. Is that so hard to do?

    peter
  44. I'll glady shut him up[ Go to top ]

    Here's Rolf himself declaring his previous experience with big enterprise systems, one year ago:
    "I never was able to lay my hands on a really big and functional Enterprise application before- they all guard their secrets. I hope everybody download it so we can discuss it."
    All his previous "enterprise" development experience were either small or non-functional. Pick one. ;)

    PS: I am not advocating everything must be big or complex, but that one should acknowledge the difference when systems must grow. Not resorting to name calling in the process should help a lot too! :)

    Have fun,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  45. "I'll glady shut him up"

    I won't shut up if you are going to throw shit!

    I wonder why you think that it is more qualifying to work like a little ant in a large project that to work a year as main programmer and project leader on a smaller project? May I remind you that the core engine in Oracle Java suite was made by just such a little team before it was bought by Oracle? It was called Orion back then! Without Oracle would not even be in business...;)

    If you want to stay in your chosen profession you have to learn that "small is beautiful" not the other way around.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    Dragon killer
  46. You didn't clarify your questions[ Go to top ]

    Care to clarify your questions. I did take time to answer your connection pooling questions. Were the answers to your satisfaction?

    I'd never asked you to stop talking. I simply challenged you to answer with technical facts. Were you referring to ADO.NET in your connection pooling questions, or was it referring to something else. I believe my answers were factual.

    I don't see how technical questions equals slinging mud. I've already apologized for my tone of voice, so I won't bother apologizing again.

    I've used Orion in the past and think it's a good product. To stay a little bit on topic. Oracle's current offering has benefited from Orion. I'm sure Oracle has added to Orion and made it a better product. Even if the report is marketing speak, it doesn't make Oracle's application stack worse or better. The combination of Toplink and Orion should make it a compelling stack, though I haven't had time to try it.

    peter
  47. Otra dia[ Go to top ]

    "Care to clarify your questions"

    Of course Peter.

    Like Liza's father in Pygmalion "I’m willing to tell you, I’m wanting to tell you, I’m waiting to tell you".

    But I do not want to be accused of hijacking the thread so it have to be another day.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  48. Otra dia[ Go to top ]

    "Care to clarify your questions"Of course Peter.Like Liza's father in Pygmalion "I’m willing to tell you, I’m wanting to tell you, I’m waiting to tell you".But I do not want to be accused of hijacking the thread so it have to be another day.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    I cannot think of a more literate way of saying "I don't know the answer". :)
  49. "I'll glady shut him up"I won't shut up if you are going to throw shit!
    Care to point me where is the shit? I just quoted your own words, and provided the link to them. It is ok to expose some inexperience in some areas, as nobody knows everything, and it may turn into a chance to learn something new. But you must agree it gave people a nice perspective when arguing with you about big and functional enterprise systems, didn't it?
    I wonder why you think that it is more qualifying to work like a little ant in a large project that to work a year as main programmer and project leader on a smaller project? blah blah...
    Again, where is the shit in my post? Have you read my PS? Seems not, as you just repeated me with other words. Be calm, take your time, and try reading before posting next time. Just so you don't get confused again: we both agree on this, big projects are not more important than small ones, they are just different, and should be dealt with differently. Ok?

    Have fun,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  50. sorry , have to shut up Henrique[ Go to top ]

    I wonder why you think that it is more qualifying to work like a little ant in a large project that to work a year as main programmer and project leader on a smaller project?

    Because sometimes large projects are qualitatively, not just quantitatively, different from smaller projects. You can gain years of experience in smaller projects without coming across technologies and approaches that are seen by the 'ant'.
    May I remind you that the core engine in Oracle Java suite was made by just such a little team before it was bought by Oracle?

    The core is not the whole.
    If you want to stay in your chosen profession you have to learn that "small is beautiful" not the other way around.

    If you want to stay in your chosen profession and you think that "small is [always] beautiful" you will have to keep to small projects. Because sometimes small doesn't work. Like a large building, a large project can require additional framework; braces and struts[sic] to make it robust. This is why application server platforms are required. Some of us like to include the framework even in small projects so that they can grow without collapsing.
  51. Java or non-Java, they all fail[ Go to top ]

    1) I have had "first class seat" to observe several large projects and unfortunately I have to report they all went to hell! ;) Seems that the IT business is a little immature still or what do you say? hi hi

    2) Also:
    "People should remember the Fortune 5000 is composed of just about 5000 businesses. In the United States alone There are over 5.5 million small businesses with employees. It's a long way from GE, Microsoft, and Walmart to A1-Plumbing but there's a huge commercial middle ground and it's several orders of magnitude larger than the "enterprise" market.
     Mike Foody"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    "I love money"
  52. Of course they don't all fail![ Go to top ]

    1) I have had "first class seat" to observe several large projects and unfortunately I have to report they all went to hell! ;) Seems that the IT business is a little immature still or what do you say? hi hi2) Also:
    "People should remember the Fortune 5000 is composed of just about 5000 businesses. In the United States alone There are over 5.5 million small businesses with employees. It's a long way from GE, Microsoft, and Walmart to A1-Plumbing but there's a huge commercial middle ground and it's several orders of magnitude larger than the "enterprise" market. &nbsp;Mike Foody"
    RegardsRolf Tollerud"I love money"

    They obviously don't all fail, because we see large projects working all around us all the time. We see businesses with large CRM systems, and finance systems etc. We banks, we use airlines etc.

    You can't provide complex large services just by bolting together lots of smaller ones. There are matters of performance and integration of different parts of the project in efficient ways.

    It is very true that most businesses are small, but that has no relation to the size of the IT services they might need, and to say so (as you are implying) shows a lack of understanding of their requirements. A company of small size may need a high-performance public website (something you have no interest in, apparently) as its 'shop window', as it may be dealing with hundreds of hundreds of thousands of potential customers and if it moved to on-line purchasing and stock monitoring it would need a highly reliable website with guaranteed security, transactional integrity and failover.

    Yet again, you are trying to extrapolate from your restricted experience.
  53. Of course they don't all fail![ Go to top ]

    "Yet again, you are trying to extrapolate from your restricted experience"

    It is an error to think that you learn only from your personal experience, for instance I happen to know that the greatest expert on Chinese culture in BBC has never been to China.

    Also it is an error to think that an application is "large" only because of the load. You probably think that salesforce is a large application. But it was done by little team in 3-4 months.

    This bickering is useless. J2EE's have a wrong attitude towards software development. That is my opinion! But you have a different opinion so let us just sit it out and see what happens.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (exactly this discussion I have had before with the mainframe programmers that were annilated in the nineties –it is not a word that is different :-)
  54. Of course they don't all fail![ Go to top ]

    "Yet again, you are trying to extrapolate from your restricted experience"
    It is an error to think that you learn only from your personal experience, for instance I happen to know that the greatest expert on Chinese culture in BBC has never been to China.

    Also it is an error to think that an application is "large" only because of the load. You probably think that salesforce is a large application. But it was done by little team in 3-4 months.

    This bickering is useless. J2EE's have a wrong attitude towards software development. That is my opinion! But you have a different opinion so let us just sit it out and see what happens.

    RegardsRolf Tollerud

    How does this relate to the forrester article. And by the way, I know a Jewish reporter working for NPR who actually is in china. Anyone claiming to be an expert in china without ever stepping foot in china is a liar.

    although I wouldn't call the forrester article false, it suffers from the same sympton. Spending a few hours to interview the CTO/CIO of a company without seeing exactly how MS, Oracle, Sun, Bea, and IBM software is used, they can't possibly write a good paper on the topic. Of course, to do that well, the authors would need to spend several weeks at each of the companies, which would mean over a years worth of time.

    peter
  55. Of course they don't all fail![ Go to top ]

    "Yet again, you are trying to extrapolate from your restricted experience"It is an error to think that you learn only from your personal experience, for instance I happen to know that the greatest expert on Chinese culture in BBC has never been to China.

    Yes, but I imagine that expert at least has an interest in China, and speaks chinese. You are stating things about areas you say you have no interest in.
    Also it is an error to think that an application is "large" only because of the load.

    Where did I say that?
    You probably think that salesforce is a large application.

    You don't know what I think.
    But it was done by little team in 3-4 months.This bickering is useless.

    And what did they develop it on? Solaris, using Sun software, using stateful server techniques and J2EE (albeit without EJBs). It was exactly contrary to the software design techniques you have been proposing.

    I would imagine that what you call 'bickering' (simply contradicting your FUD with facts) will stop when you finally stop posting FUD.
    J2EE's have a wrong attitude towards software development. That is my opinion! But you have a different opinion so let us just sit it out and see what happens. RegardsRolf Tollerud(exactly this discussion I have had before with the mainframe programmers that were annilated in the nineties –it is not a word that is different :-)

    Just check the COBOL jobs. Also, IBM's mainframe sales expanded dramatically last year. You are even wrong about that! So much for 'ahhihilation'!
  56. How does that relate to the forrester study and their article?

    peter
  57. Peter,

    We wait untill the topic fall out of the main page and the thread goes to sleep, then we resume our SQL server discussion!
  58. frankly, no thanks[ Go to top ]

    Peter,We wait untill the topic fall out of the main page and the thread goes to sleep, then we resume our SQL server discussion!

    I'm done explaining sql server to you. I would recommend buying some book and reading up. I've got better things to do than explain fundamentals.

    good luck

    peter
  59. better buy the book yourself[ Go to top ]

    "I'm done explaining sql server to you"

    Very well, if you say so. Based on your answers, I would say that you don't know a jota about SQL server programming!
  60. "I'm done explaining sql server to you"Very well, if you say so. Based on your answers, I would say that you don't know a jota about SQL server programming!

    I never claimed to be an expert, and there's plenty more I can learn about how sql server. I would like to explore is sql server's transactional replication, the new C# triggers and fibre threading mode in greater detail, but I don't have enough time. I think everyone can see for themselves who responds with technical facts and who doesn't.

    peter
  61. "And I would like to look into the new XQuery and a native XML data type, Notification Services and the tools for Multidimensional Expression (MDX), and XML for Analysis (XML/A)."

    You see? It is easy to talk. But the devil is in the details. Unless you can answer my questions correctly please don't bother me with any opinions about SQL server again.
  62. why get so mad?[ Go to top ]

    "And I would like to look into the new XQuery and a native XML data type, Notification Services and the tools for Multidimensional Expression (MDX), and XML for Analysis (XML/A)."You see? It is easy to talk. But the devil is in the details. Unless you can answer my questions correctly please don't bother me with any opinions about SQL server again.

    I answered your questions, you gave some excuse and chose not to clarify your questions. I have nothing to hide. If my answers were wrong, please point out the errors. I have no idea what "answer my question correctly means." I suppose I'm suppose to read your mind and know exactly what you're thinking of. If I could do that I'd be rich and relaxing on a beach some where sipping fresh juice and working on OSS.

    :)

    peter
  63. better buy the book yourself[ Go to top ]

    "I'm done explaining sql server to you"Very well, if you say so. Based on your answers, I would say that you don't know a jota about SQL server programming!
    Based on your questions - you don't. I didn't see anything about TSQL or DTS in your questions. Your questions are more ADO and COM+ related. While SQL Server might do something different than DB2 or ___ based on what you put in, those are mostly things the driver does not the db specifically.
  64. It is not too late![ Go to top ]

    sorry for barging in, and I do hope, Rolf, that you will not snap at me the same as you snapped at the others, but:

    1. Have you ever done careful, thorough load, performance and stress calculation for the (apparently many) systems you've designed? If so, have you taken into account in these calculations the amount of users, the amount of network traffic+bandwidth and predicted usage scenarios? Right now, and I've be glad if you proved us all wrong, it doesn't seem you do, or even think it is necessary. If you think it is not necessary - please explain.

    2. I'm not sure if I completely understand your points - you seem to state that J2EE is not needed, and we should all resort to simpler solutions that consist of a simple web tier. But surely someone with your stated experience recognizes that there are (even many) cases where this is definitly the appropriate solution, and many other cases where it is most definitly NOT. Or have I misunderstood you?

    Cheers (or as my friend puts it: "Beauty is in the eyes of the BEER holder" ;-)

    Arik.
  65. It is not too late![ Go to top ]

    "Have you ever done careful, thorough load, performance and stress calculation for the (apparently many) systems you've designed?"

    1) The answer is no Arik never, because I don't need to. Always design your client so it works with databases of any size. Get a connection, use it as fast as possible and release it like a hot potato. What more can you do? The rest is up to the engineers at the server.

    2) Up to now I always assumed that J2EE is a ok technology as long as you do not use EJB and in general not over-architechture. For some reason though J2EE people "love" complexity, why I do not know. Most IT fellows I know have been burned so badly so many times that they run for the KISS whenever they can.

    Finally, even if I mildly critize salesforce I am a great admirer, their product is sky-above the typical J2EE application and they are indeed competent.

    Nice to meet a polite person! (sniff, drying away a tear)
    Rolf Tollerud
  66. ROTFLMAO[ Go to top ]

    "Have you ever done careful, thorough load, performance and stress calculation for the (apparently many) systems you've designed?"1) The answer is no Arik never, because I don't need to. Always design your client so it works with databases of any size. Get a connection, use it as fast as possible and release it like a hot potato. What more can you do? The rest is up to the engineers at the server. 2) Up to now I always assumed that J2EE is a ok technology as long as you do not use EJB and in general not over-architechture. For some reason though J2EE people "love" complexity, why I do not know. Most IT fellows I know have been burned so badly so many times that they run for the KISS whenever they can.Finally, even if I mildly critize salesforce I am a great admirer, their product is sky-above the typical J2EE application and they are indeed competent.Nice to meet a polite person! (sniff, drying away a tear)

    Rolf Tollerud

    Such wisdom. All of us have been wasting time. Why bother worrying about connections to the database when Sql Server has a pool limit of 250. No one needs more than 250 connections or 64K of memory.

    peter
  67. SQL server ABC[ Go to top ]

    Hi Peter,

    You seem to imply that you know a lot about SQL server. Could you indicate please! :), which one of the following statements that is true?

    1) If you change the connection string, even slightly, it will force a new connection.
      
    2) It is very important to set a connection to Nothing for proper pooling.
      
    3) If you change the CursorLocation (adUseClient to adUseServer) or Mode (adModeRead, adModeShareDenyRead, etc.) of a pooled connection you may cause problems when it is returned to the pool.

    4) If you modify the ConnectionTimeout the pooled connection will remember this new value and could introduce problems when it goes back into the connection pool.

    5) Opening multiple recordsets on the same connection object will insure you take a connection from the pool.

    I am waiting!
    Rolf Tollerud
  68. discussion[ Go to top ]

    You seem to imply that you know a lot about SQL server. Could you indicate please! :), which one of the following statements that is true?
    I am waiting!Rolf Tollerud

    Please now, lets have scientific discussion. Peter has allways been credible contributor. And we should ALL, and me too, just have a few comments per thread that adress the thread header.

    .V
  69. discussion[ Go to top ]

    "..we should ALL, and me too, just have a few comments per thread that adress the thread header"

    Very well, I'll shut up too.
  70. It depends[ Go to top ]

    Hi Peter,
    You seem to imply that you know a lot about SQL server. Could you indicate please! :), which one of the following statements that is true?
    1) If you change the connection string, even slightly, it will force a new connection.
    2) It is very important to set a connection to Nothing for proper pooling.
    3) If you change the CursorLocation (adUseClient to adUseServer) or Mode (adModeRead, adModeShareDenyRead, etc.) of a pooled connection you may cause problems when it is returned to the pool.
    4) If you modify the ConnectionTimeout the pooled connection will remember this new value and could introduce problems when it goes back into the connection pool.
    5) Opening multiple recordsets on the same connection object will insure you take a connection from the pool. I am waiting!
    Rolf Tollerud

    Since I'm rusty with ADO, I'll use JDBC. First thing, I never claimed to be an expert and even though I've written my own connection pooling, that is not the same thing as writing a jdbc2 compliant pooling driver.

    the answer to your first question makes no sense. Typically, the JDBC connection pool is created by your server like Weblogic, or you create a named resource. All application "should" then get a connection by the named resource. That means the application never makes its own connection, it simply asks the pool manager for a connection. Here is a link to Sun's javax.sql javadocs http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/javax/sql/package-summary.html.

    Question 2 also makes little sense, since the application asks the pool manager for the connection. As long as the application using the connection calls close(), the concrete class will pass the even to the pool manager to recycle the connection.

    I honestly don't understand what you're talking about with question 3. please clarify.

    Question 4 makes no sense in the context of jdbc, because one can clearly see from the javadoc http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/sql/Connection.html both pooled and non-pooled connection do not have setTimeOut(). there is no method in the connection interface for setting the connection timeout. It is also not recommended the application mess with the connection timeout. Now, if you look at the DataSource API, you do see a method for setting timeout http://java.sun.com/products/jdbc/jdbc2_0_1-stdext-javadoc/javax/sql/DataSource.html. Since the pool is created by the container or your own custom pool manager, it should not "reset" the timeout value. The timeout value is only relevant for creating a new connection to the database.

    Qustion 5 makes no sense. Once an application gets a connection from the pool, it has that connection until it calls close. A single connection can return multiple ResultSet, but that has nothing to do with "taking a connection from the pool." Please clarify what you mean in question 5, since it makes no sense.

    I've written custom pooling drivers for custom protocols, but I am no expert. Frankly, your questions make no sense to me. It sounds like you're talking about application manage connection pool, which isn't something I recommend. Having applications manage pools of connection is error proned and a bad practice. that might be how PHP or other frameworks handle connection pooling, but it is not good practice in my bias opinion.

    feel free to point out any mistakes and errors :)

    peter
  71. SQL server ABC[ Go to top ]

    Hi Peter,You seem to imply that you know a lot about SQL server. Could you indicate please! :), which one of the following statements that is true?1) If you change the connection string, even slightly, it will force a new connection.&nbsp;&nbsp;2) It is very important to set a connection to Nothing for proper pooling.&nbsp;&nbsp;3) If you change the CursorLocation (adUseClient to adUseServer) or Mode (adModeRead, adModeShareDenyRead, etc.) of a pooled connection you may cause problems when it is returned to the pool.4) If you modify the ConnectionTimeout the pooled connection will remember this new value and could introduce problems when it goes back into the connection pool.5) Opening multiple recordsets on the same connection object will insure you take a connection from the pool. I am waiting!Rolf Tollerud

    What does this have to do with SQL server? Looks more like ADO questions.
  72. SQL server ABC[ Go to top ]

    What does this have to do with SQL server? Looks more like ADO questions.
    And COM+. Both of which can be used with DB2, Oracle, etc.
  73. ahh, I think you're right[ Go to top ]

    What does this have to do with SQL server? Looks more like ADO questions.
    And COM+. Both of which can be used with DB2, Oracle, etc.

    at first I was confused, but now that you mention ADO, I think you're right. Rolf is talking specifically about ADO.Net. Though that kind of problem doesn't exist if you use ODBC, since ODBC also uses named resources. Even OleDB uses the same approach of having named resource. I don't think microsoft recommends using your own application driven connection pool.

    sorry to eveyone for more off topic post. I'll shut up now.

    peter
  74. It is not too late![ Go to top ]

    [quote]The answer is no Arik never, because I don't need to. Always design your client so it works with databases of any size. Get a connection, use it as fast as possible and release it like a hot potato. What more can you do? The rest is up to the engineers at the server.[/quote]

    I think I am missing one of your points - on one hand, you state (perhaps justifiably, I am not judging) that performing stress/load/performance testing is not necessary ("I do not need to") but you finish the sentence with "The rest is up to the engineers at the server", so you do realize such operation is indeed needed. Am I correct?

    [quote]Up to now I always assumed that J2EE is a ok technology as long as you do not use EJB and in general not over-architechture. For some reason though J2EE people "love" complexity, why I do not know. Most IT fellows I know have been burned so badly so many times that they run for the KISS whenever they can[/quote]

    I would recommend you re-read your J2EE specs. Nowhere does it say a J2EE application must manage its business logic via EJB. In fact, many of us do not. This is not to say EJBs are bad (although, frankly, they are not my taste - until EJB3 which seems to be going in the right directions) but rather to state that J2EE != EJB.

    Here at the IDF we use J2EE, but we manage our facades and services manually - e.g. simple POJOs that provide the services, using a thin wrapper framework that provides required services (DataSource, DAOs, etc). The reason we did it is so that we will not be dependant on EJB, and also to provide standardization across all our numerous development projects.

    Moreover, even when designing a SQLServer+"COM+" or .NET application you still need to calculate just how much stress you are going to put on your application, how much data you will be delivering to your clients (be it DHTML or RIA).

    ofcourse - you seem confident that this is not needed, and apparently this is working well for you - so keep it up. I say live and let live, and let the chips fall where they may.

    2cents posts only ;-)
  75. Alarik the Goth?[ Go to top ]

    Arik,

    "Moreover, even when designing a SQLServer+"COM+" or .NET application you still need to calculate just how much stress you are going to put on your application, how much data you will be delivering to your clients (be it DHTML or RIA)."

    " you seem confident that this is not needed, and apparently this is working well for you."

    Ha ha! You are funny Arik. Of course someone has to calculate when it comes to deployment! What I am saying is that you can build your client first - Without knowing at the time.

    When it comes to deployment, to calculate "how much power" you need at the server is trivial. It has nothing to do with neither fantacy, creativity or innovativness - whatsoever. It is routine and ordinary engineer work. In fact it is so easy that I usually can guess what is needed right away on sheer intuition.

    Anything more you want to know? Maybe you can answer me a question?

    "Why do J2EE folks like complexity so much?"

    Fascinating name BTW, any relationship to the famous "Alarik the Goth"?
      
    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  76. P.S.[ Go to top ]

    *Of course to be able to guess I must have build or been part of the team that build the client.
  77. Alarik the Goth?[ Go to top ]

    LOL

    no relation I'm afraid ;-)

    As to your question - who says J2EE guys like complexity? I consider myself a J2EE guy, and frankly I don't like complexity, and in fact avoid it as much as possible.

    However, I do recognize that there are cases when you have to creat complex systems - usually when you are dealing with large organizations that span across the globe and even more - when creating applications that have life & death consequences (as we sometimes build here in the army).

    About dull engineering work - I can see you love writing code and nothing else - and that is fine. "To each his own". I for one have long past that stage in life and find much more satisfaction and creativity (again - taste is subjective) in management and "dull engineering work" as you put it.

    You should always remember, Rolf, that different jobs have different charactaristics, and usually fit different kinds of people in different stages of their life.

    Please don't take offense - I'm sure you're a nice guy, when you don't drink too much! ;-) (just kidding!)

    cheers.
  78. It is not too late![ Go to top ]

    Get a connection, use it as fast as possible and release it like a hot potato. What more can you do?

    Rolf Tollerud

    WHAT???
    So, this guy connects the client to the database directly?? Another ASP hacker in this hood!!!
  79. Then, if it is correctly done, that application can be deployed departmental, enterprise or world-wide without a single code change. All depend on the setup at the server.

    Another Fat-Server lover from the 80's.

    Distributed computing is still an esoteric term for them...
  80. The first thing I will like to prove is that "if you use the dich-client with no state at the server technique" there are no difference between the departmental application and world wide no-holds-barreled application, from the programmer viewpoint, let's goRolf Tollerud

    Hold on - yidn't you agree only a day or so ago on another thread that the 'rich-client with no state at the server technique' that could not be used for a world wide no-holds barred[sic]' application, because of browser variation... ah yes, here is the quote:

    I asked:
    How do you keep the state at the client if you have guarantee of what the client is?

    Please describe how you would do this with the following range of browsers:...

    You replied:
    I have no problem with getting my customers to accept that the applications demands IE or Firefox only. In fact most of them they couldn't care less about Firefox, I usually just include it as a whim. I have worked with business-apps all my life - never public websites, which is another area that does not interest me.
  81. let's follow the money, shall we?[ Go to top ]

    Steve,

    One of the "lack" at salesforce.com is that they are not utilizing the AJAX possibilities. The reason for that is simple; salesforce was build before Firefox on the market. It had to work with the old Netscape browser. That is the reason it look looks it do today.

    If you had a salesforce that was build like Google do, even if it restrained you to the two mayor browsers, it would completely out compete the old salesforce.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  82. let's follow the users[ Go to top ]

    Steve,One of the "lack" at salesforce.com is that they are not utilizing the AJAX possibilities. The reason for that is simple; salesforce was build before Firefox on the market. It had to work with the old Netscape browser. That is the reason it look looks it do today. If you had a salesforce that was build like Google do, even if it restrained you to the two mayor browsers, it would completely out compete the old salesforce.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Yes, but as I have already pointed out, a true 'world wide no-holds barred' application can't restrain your browser use. It is reasonable to specify browsers for internal use within an organisation, but you aren't going to get very far if you say only 'modern IE and Firefox' - that still alienates around 1 in 20 of your potential users.
  83. the last 5% of the users[ Go to top ]

    Well in this case it is impossible to prove anything as it is a fictive scenario. All is opinions only. My opinion is that a "Google type of product" would out compete salesforce even if it didn't support all browsers, but you are untitled to your own opinion. I just hope you remember to use reason, logic and common sense!

    That said I do not know how much work it will be to add the Macintosh browser. How is it with xmlhttp-request in Safari?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  84. But why don't you study salesforce.com a little?

    Years ago, at the request of one of their VCs, I visited Salesforce.com out in San Francisco and took a look at what they were doing. Anyone other companies you think I should look at?

    p.s. We're also a Salesforce.com customer.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  85. you've got to be kidding[ Go to top ]

    I spent 3 days last week fixing a server that was infected by a virus. The system was fully patched two weeks back and the virus definitions were updated. I checked on the system every 2-3 days. Before the new set of patches were released by microsoft on tuesday, the system got infected with Win32.pinfi and a couple of other trojans. what does this tell me?

    the only thing conclusive I can say is symantec anti-virus blows and a windows server connected to the internet needs to be behind atleast 2 firewalls. the first one should be router firewall, the second a good software firewall. I don't blame windows in this case, but given how much more work it takes to secure a windows system, I personally would not use windows for mission critical applications. Even with 2 firewalls, there's no gaurantee someone isn't going to plug an infected laptop into the network and screw up the servers. Actually, several of my friends would be in debt if it wasn't for all the work they get cleaning up windows servers.

    my totally bias 2 cents.

    peter
  86. Was it paid by Ora/MS[ Go to top ]

    Whatever analyst reports or reviews that came out last year or this year you would see positive things for Oracle Application Server. This is not because Oracle is paying all analyst firms but because it improved its offerings and you have to open up your eyes to the reality. Whether you agree or not Oracle is a force to reckon with and is a strong contender in the middleware. Oracle’s J2EE solution might have sucked a couple of years back but we have sweated to improve our offerings. We heard all customer complaints and worked hard to address most issues OC4J had. You have to give a fresh look at Oracle Application Server 10g


    There is no doubt that OracleAS is fast gaining market share from its competitors. Oracle included many great products to its suite after licensing Orion four years back. We have greatly improved OC4J after licensing from Ironflare about four years back.


    If you are not aware are few acquisitions that made Oracle’s middleware offer more compelling:

    · TopLink – the leading O-R framework is part of OracleAS and the core of its EJB 3.0 implementation
    · Oracle BPEL Process Manager – industry’s leading BPEL server that we released after acquiring Collaxa
    · Improved the security, id management solutions by acquiring Phaos Technologies and now Oblix

    Here are few nice reports on Oracle Application Server that you can read.

    http://www.infoworld.com/Oracle_Application_Server_10g_Release_2/product_58520.html?view=1&curNodeId=108 - InfoWorld

    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1618874,00.asp - eWeek

    http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=48034&DE=1 - WSJ



    -Debu
  87. Was it paid by Ora/MS[ Go to top ]

    Oracle’s J2EE solution might have sucked a couple of years back but we have sweated to improve our offerings.

    Astounding, coming from Oracle..

    Yeah...we hear it from the 'experts', even where I work, that Oracle doesn't work, etc....really I think most everything sucks, but:

    Current Per Second 274.00
    Average Per Second 8.00
    Maximum Per Second 557.00

    I just looked, and it's working....MC
  88. Was it paid by Ora/MS[ Go to top ]

    Astounding, coming from Oracle..Yeah...we hear it from the 'experts', even where I work, that Oracle doesn't work, etc....really I think most everything sucks, but:Current Per Second 274.00Average Per Second 8.00Maximum Per Second 557.00I just looked, and it's working....MC

    Without creating a FUD can you be specific what did not work?

    Do not tell me that customers are paying for everything that sucks and we are paid for doing nothing? Please come on, come out of your shell and realize that Oracle App server is a strong contender in the middleware space.

    -Debu
  89. Was it paid by Ora/MS[ Go to top ]

    Without creating a FUD can you be specific what did not work?Do not tell me that customers are paying for everything that sucks and we are paid for doing nothing? Please come on, come out of your shell and realize that Oracle App server is a strong contender in the middleware space.-Debu

    Ya misread what I posted...I think the stuff is actually getting pretty decent. I should not post in such a hurry.

    I was actually browsing TSS while we were busy running our student registration cycle, which can get fairly intense. The good news is I can browse TSS while it's going on because the server was running pretty well.

    That's all...

    MC
  90. What kind of report is this?[ Go to top ]

    .. this report was paid for by Oracle and/or Microsoft.

    I got an email from a Forrester analyst who was upset by the accusation that the report was "paid for" by Oracle. The summary is this: In order for Oracle to put the report on their site, they do have to pay Forrester for the right to publish, however the article itself was not written on behalf of a particular vendor or set of vendors, and its conclusions were not pre-ordained.

    If you read it, you will realize that there are two parts of the report, although they are somewhat mixed together. The first is that Forrester asked a group of 114 North American businesses and 116 North American "decision makers" some questions, and reported the results. Obviously, the sample is opaque to the rest of us, but it's probably composed of companies that use Forrester services, which is normal practice in the industry (after all, those are the customers that want to know what similar companies are doing).
    In the next two years, for mission-critical [their emphasis] application projects, which of the following application platforms will be used for projects that receive at least 10% of your enterprise's development investments?

    This was the question that showed Microsoft .NET as the first choice with 54% and Java/J2EE as the second choice with 46%. The remaining answers accounted for the "other" 75%, since multiple responses were allowed.
    Which vendor will be your primary supplier of an application server / integration platform used to integrate and extend packaged enterprise applications to other systems?

    On this question, Microsoft was first, and Oracle (with the inclusion of the Peoplesoft stats) was second on the list. Again, disclaimers for sample size and selection, etc.

    I do think the questions (including the answer choices) are flawed, but no more so than Microsoft renaming everything to .NET or IBM renaming everything to Websphere. Note the conclusion:
    Most customers have both Microsoft and Java/J2EE. Most large enterprises have both Java/J2EE and Microsoft platforms..

    Note, for example, that it says "both Microsoft and Java/J2EE", not "both .NET and Java/J2EE" or "both Microsoft and IBM."

    The other half of the report (the "Forrester Wave") was a study of the various "Application Server Platforms." The Forrester Wave is roughly equivalent to the Gartner Magic Quadrant in that it is a two-axis graph with a couple vendors finding themselves the furthest to the right and the furthest to the top, and they are therefore the ones to buy software from.

    Figure 4 includes a numerical table that shows how Forrester was able to numerically come to the conclusion that it did, although the numbers in Figure 4 have no supporting evidence cited. In other words, while the net result is based on a numerical system, the functions behind its discrete inputs are completely opaque.

    One of the inputs is "Market Presence," which got some knocks in this thread. The report explains:
    Market presence. Market presence is measured through a combination of factors, including the vendor’s total revenue and growth during the four most recent quarters. The most important of these criteria for clients to use are the number of customers and partners for each vendor. Partners are particularly important to fill in gaps and create solutions in platform markets. These rankings are heavily influenced by the amount of information provided by the vendors themselves. Vendors that provide complete information usually get higher scores than vendors that don’t. Market presence is not a measure of market share and should not be interpreted as such.

    In other words, Market Presence tells us how successful the company is, not necessarily how successful the product in question is in the market. IBM (not at all surprisingly) and Oracle got very good marks for Market Presence; Microsoft (the most omnipresent company in software) got surprising low marks, but you can look at the numbers to understand the rationale behind that.

    For "Strategy," Oracle and Microsoft got the best marks. As an aside, strategy includes the cost of the software, which knocked BEA and IBM way down in that category. (Aside: It isn't often that Oracle is considered the low-cost approach.)

    Oracle's strongest showing was in the "Current Offerings" section, which attempts to measure how good the actual software products are for the uses being described by the report. According to the report, Oracles products were clearly superior to the rest of the field, never scoring below a 4 out of 5 in any category. (In contrast, BEA only scored one 4 or higher, and IBM and Sun had none.)

    At any rate, the report is there to read. I think that the small samples it cited and the way the questions were worded suffer from the same flaws that made XmlSpy into the highest rated "Java IDE" and "Java Book."

    Regarding the ratings that it assigned to the various vendor platforms that were evaluated, the implication from the report is that Oracle's stack is night-and-day better than it was only a year ago. While I've heard positive things about Oracle's applications server improvements, and while I know from conversations with people I know at Oracle that Oracle is continuing to invest significantly in improving it, I have to admit that I am very skeptical of the "worst to first" results. (I'm allowed to be skeptical, right?)

    (For purposes of my own disclosure, we do pay money to Forrester, and we work pretty closely with the Java/J2EE groups at BEA, IBM and Oracle.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  91. thanks for bringing back on topic[ Go to top ]

    From the figure 1 of the report, the caption is a bit vague to me. Anyone know what "Which vendor will be your primary supplier of an application server/integration platform used to integrate and extend packaged enterprise applications to other systems?" really means. Is it cross platform integration or within the same platform.

    On page 6 of the report "Customers choose based on application complexity. Customers who are building large
    custom applications in either mixed environments or on Unix or Linux favor Java/J2EE, while Microsoft ’s platforms are most widely used in medium-size enterprises and front-office
    applications. Still, Microsoft is widely used in enterprise applications, as well — in less--mixed environments


    It sounds like the report is lumping everything together. The type of developement is very important, so it doesn't make sense to lump it all together. Was the report vague on purpose, or was it simply laziness? Is the reader suppose to imagine what "less-mixed" means. If a business has some sql servers for departmental work and oracle for main database, it is mixed. But without knowing the context of how the technology is used, it's rather useless.

    I suspect deadlines and lack of time contributes to the vague/non-specific generalizations. I haven't read the whole report, but it already feels pretty empty and superficial from the first 10 pages.

    peter
  92. thanks for bringing back on topic[ Go to top ]

    But without knowing the context of how the technology is used, it's rather useless.

    +1 Exactly!
  93. I would say the one thing Oracle has learnt from Microsoft is MS's marketing tactic.
  94. I feel the same.Oracle has invested a lot in its Grid Marketing Strategy.

    Does Oracle App Server provides complete Grid Computing??????????..

    Yours
    NavEndyan
  95. Are you (Forrester) sure? ;)[ Go to top ]

    I'll be looking forward to hearing from Gartner.
    Ok, maybe I believe about Oracle but MS????
  96. Are you (Forrester) sure? ;)[ Go to top ]

    I'll be looking forward to hearing from Gartner.

    According to the 2005 Gartner report, IBM is in the lead and BEA is second
    http://www.gartner.com/press_releases/asset_124729_11.html
  97. Gartner Report[ Go to top ]

    Right IBM is First, BEA is second and loosing market share.
    But the interesting data from Gartner is that Oracle and MS have a faster growth then the other two.

    And note what one analysts say the reason is:
    "Oracle has gone from having a 'me too' offering in app servers and integration and made strategic moves to become cutting-edge in some tech areas," Willett said. He cited Oracle's acquisition of Collaxa for business process monitoring and its licensing deals for business-activity monitoring (BAM) and event-processing engine technology.
    "They're going out ahead of other companies now. You've got to give them credit," Willett said.
    (Shawn Willett, analyst at research firm Current Analysis,)

    Application Integration, Middleware Market Remains Strong

    It's not the same Oracle you knew a few years ago ...
  98. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    comercial vendors (IBM, BEA, ++ ) Oracle is best. (its based on still avialable OS impl Orion - try the OS version if you have not, it similar to Resin. ) .NET is just what PHB likes.
    So no surprise that Oracle is king of J2EE/EJB.

    If speed of development, track record (the ratio of referencable customers is like 1000 to 1 )or cost to operate PHP comes way ahead of commercial vendors, find referenceable sites here:
    http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=388&Itemid=143\
    Any sincer tech lead would have to eval PHP as well. I use tikiWiki now, it can give you 80% out of the box day 1 to deploy and you customize the rest for your 2nd release..
    So IMO PHP is king of server side DHTML apps. Millions get spent on J2EE and they fail a lot. Little gets spent on PHP and it deploys.

    OTOH, Java is the only platform that is fast and crossplatform RiA (http://www.clientjava.com/blog ), CLR is way behind and Flash runtime is way slow.(But nice IDE MM have for easy to deploy Flash runtime-for trivial applets that render on the client)
    If Sun middle managment made Swing easier to deploy, the dominant platform would be Java.
    ( http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?forumID=25&threadID=315&messageID=9214
     - they did next to nothing w/ a large team in 4 years, and now they are working in new features for java 6 instead of fixing bugs. IMO, Sun middle managment sees itself in charge of preventing deployment of applications, untill the end users are educated enough about Java security)

    IMO.... open source version of langange formerely known as Java will fix deployment issues in time, so we the developers can make applications. (Current best practice is to include Java w/ each app, ex LimeWire. Sun does not even know the top ten market share Java deployed applications! )

     Do you know that the new Fedora (RedHat) Linux distro SHIPS with Eclipse, Struts and Tomcat out of the box allready? (other distros said they will follow)
    That is a bigger market then Sparc HW (Slowlaris HW does not even show up in TPC.org price performance). GCC 4 includes GNU classpath "Java" impl, the slow moving iceberg will crush all others.

    So deparmental needs are great for .NET./ w/ integration to MS Office. (Deparmental to me is less than a terabyte and less than 10K concurent users)
    ServerSide commercial Developers = PHP (like frriendster)
    RIA commercial = GNU Java, once it's out from under Sun, w/ CLR in the back (Ex: You can do C cross ptform q/ Qt, etc.)

    .V
  99. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    cost to operate PHP comes way ahead of commercial vendors

    Cost to write javascript is even lower. I still don't get why people are comparing PHP to J2EE. PHP is more comparable to JSP. You can do everything in JSP as you can with PHP, for something more enterprise grade, J2EE comes to mind.
    I use tikiWiki now, it can give you 80% out of the box day 1 to deploy and you customize the rest for your 2nd release..So IMO PHP is king of server side DHTML apps.


    So what? I use a J2EE based commercial enterprise learning system, with 90% out of the box and then customize away by extending classes. I don't see how this is relevant to the app server discussion. PHP is not an Enterprise Development environment, it's JSP with different syntax.

    Millions get spent on J2EE and they fail a lot.


    That's because they hire JSP or PHP junkies, who don't understand what enterprise architecture and development is. They stick a few buzz words on their resume and get hired, mostly by unknowledgable management.

    Little gets spent on PHP and it deploys.

    Where do you get those figures? Please don't compare apples and oranges. An enterprise application in J2EE is uncomparable to a dynamic web site in PHP.
    OTOH, Java is the only platform that is fast and crossplatform RiA (http://www.clientjava.com/blog ), CLR is way behind and Flash runtime is way slow.

    Flash compared dto J2EE or Java? What are we going to compare next, MS Paint?


    Ilya
  100. Sorry Illaya[ Go to top ]

    An enterprise application in J2EE is uncomparable to a dynamic web site in PHP.

    You can look at the scroe of deployed referenced applications listed. Do reaserch for you.
    Pick a J2EE applciation or toolkit.
    Pick a PHP application or toolkit.
    Pick a .NET application or toolkit.
    Then find the # of referenced sites. I am satisfied that PHP is less risk, less cost, more sucess, faster to develop, easy to customize. All the things that an enterpirse or an organization would compare on.

    Lets define what I mean by word "better": cheaper, faster to devlop, less risk, cheaper to operate, less manpower, more profitable, more reference sites.
    So I conculded ServerSide DHTML, J2EE is not competetive, and over time there will be less and less gigs.

    You can define your word for what better is and do your own reaserch of risk.

    PHP does not have a magic message behind the word "ENTERPRISE" as in J2EE/EJB.
    All the design paters can be implemented in any lang, mostly no magic in computers.

    Some enginners will not pick what is in the client's best interest. In the words of D-Ali-G: "I have the Video".
    http://tikiwiki.org/TikiMovies (click + and scare yourself)
    Flash compared dto J2EE or Java?

     But clients side applications for the coming RiA?
    I compared Flex and it's Flash Runtime.
    I compared XAML and CLR.
    And JavaWebStart.

    I think it's fair to compare Mono CLR to Java buytecode to C +Qt and Flash runtime to Java runtime deployment. All the design paters in one, can be implemented in the other. Ex: Create a tab pannel, and place a split pane w/ a scroll bar table inside, and call a remote service to populate CRUD.
    Ex:
    http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/productinfo/features
    Click on data binding features and then click on forms.

    My conculstion was that Java is superior for Client Side appiciations (if you like fast, complex and cross platform).

    Best Java developers are still doing J2EE and not deplopying Swing. You can see most Swing(JDNC) applciations are not even MVC.
    It be no contest ONLY if WebStart bugs were fixed.

    YMMV

    .V
  101. Sorry Illaya[ Go to top ]

    An enterprise application in J2EE is uncomparable to a dynamic web site in PHP.
    You can look at the scroe of deployed referenced applications listed. Do reaserch for you.Pick a J2EE applciation or toolkit.Pick a PHP application or toolkit.Pick a .NET application or toolkit.Then find the # of referenced sites. I am satisfied that PHP is less risk, less cost, more sucess, faster to develop, easy to customize. All the things that an enterpirse or an organization would compare on. Lets define what I mean by word "better": cheaper, faster to devlop, less risk, cheaper to operate, less manpower, more profitable, more reference sites.

    I guess I'm still trying to figure out where you get your statistics from? Let's take an application concept, architect it for the enterprise, and develop. Then you can compare. Quality and maintenance are the largest costs. No one cares if the application will take a few weeks longer to develop, it's the TCO that is relavant here. The more profitable argument sounds like your doing some network marketing here. More profitable is the works of marketing and sales, has nothing to do with your development environment. I guess what I'm trying to comprehend here is you are generalizing on what you think are the facts, but in reality most large enterprises are standardizing on J2EE and now some on .NET and there is a huge reason for that. There is more to enterprise development that the features of a programming language.
    So I conculded ServerSide DHTML, J2EE is not competetive, and over time there will be less and less gigs.

    DHTML? Please, please, please stop this. These threads are archived and crawled by search engines. For your sake, I would advise you to think twice before you post this stuff, unless you don't ever plan to interview again. Please don't take this personal.
    My conculstion was that Java is superior for Client Side appiciations (if you like fast, complex and cross platform).

    Now I truly don't know what you're talking about. Java for client side? Superior? No, maybe when SWT gains some momentum, but Swing apps, although can be designed great, are notoriously slow and harsh on resources. Although there are some very nice Swing apps out there, like IDEA, etc..., I'd much better settle for something like x-widgets with hooks into python, or possibly java one day.
  102. Statistics[ Go to top ]

    Track record stats?
    I go to several CMS home pages, and click "Customers" to see how many people before me tried. Is there another way?

    Maybe you think you can't OO, DAO or design patern PHP? You can write easy to maintain and change OO code in PHP. You don't have to, people using MVC in Java don;t have to write OO, no compiler erro.

    I am all but sure that I have deployed more J2EE applications for Bridger, Vantage, Ziff-Davis, NASA, etc. as tech lead than most people here. Loads of 50,000 concurent users, 10 servers, 10MM members and $25MM revenue/income on some. If you don't respect that, fine by me.
    I wish Java was more effective on the server. Look at EJB and JSF, it's just not; relative to .NET or PHP. YMMV, use your forumla for TCO or ROI.

    Java *IS* competetive for client applciations and RiA.

    .V
  103. Track record stats?I go to several CMS home pages, and click "Customers" to see how many people before me tried. Is there another way?Maybe you think you can't OO, DAO or design patern PHP? You can write easy to maintain and change OO code in PHP. You don't have to, people using MVC in Java don;t have to write OO, no compiler erro.I am all but sure that I have deployed more J2EE applications for Bridger, Vantage, Ziff-Davis, NASA, etc. as tech lead than most people here. Loads of 50,000 concurent users, 10 servers, 10MM members and $25MM revenue/income on some. If you don't respect that, fine by me.I wish Java was more effective on the server. Look at EJB and JSF, it's just not; relative to .NET or PHP. YMMV, use your forumla for TCO or ROI.Java *IS* competetive for client applciations and RiA. .V

    Vic,

    Maybe you can tell everyone WHY you read theserverside.com when it's clearly says "Your Enterprise Java community"? Worse why do you have to reply to every freaking article?

    Seriously it's gotten more than annoying. If you like PHP, .Net, Ruby, Phyton, whatever I'm sure there are online websites that are more suited for this technology.

    As for respect. I find it hard to believe that you could work on a team capable of doing the above work w/o fighting with everyone. And your logic skills, based on your replys, is so flawed I would find it hard to believe your development skills aren't going to suffer from the same flaws.
  104. it's clearly says "Your Enterprise Java community"?

    It's usefull for Java developers and organizations to scientificaly examine competing Flash, .NET and PHP in order get better. Do you think I am in minority? Do you only use one lang?
    I find it hard to believe that you could work on a team ...

    Clients and large orgnizations trust me, for what ever reason, to be a team lead, hire and fire to get the project done. What ever flaws someone has if they can code, they are on the team.
    If you need to have friends, you would not hire me, you'd want to have a beer w/ me after hours. There are pleanty of consutling organizations that will be your friends.

    I made 3 points with URL's to back them up:
    -Oracle is best J2EE/EJB, as the study said.
    -PHP is more effective ServerSide then EJB/JSF, but was omited from the study.
    -Java is most effective client side.

    Which point do you dispute and have data, not just hurt feelings to back up? (Lets assume that you are equaly upset that Friendster found PHP more effective enough to convert from J2EE)

    You know, same thing happend to the 1st guy that said the earth is round, but I stand by my conclusions.


    .V
  105. it's clearly says "Your Enterprise Java community"?
    It's usefull for Java developers and organizations to scientificaly examine competing Flash, .NET and PHP in order get better. Do you think I am in minority? Do you only use one lang?
    My main lang is Java but occasionally I have to do C++, C#, Javascript or even hack some (ugh) Perl. I've gone from C->C++->Java on the server side, the only difference is instead of having to write everything from scratch as in the past with C/C++, I can now leverage J2EE.

    I'll do screens using Struts if needed but most of my time is dealing with the business logic and algorithms - i.e. need to keep alot of state but don't want the memory overhead so use memory mapped files. The screen html mockup is given to me by an html/web designer who is up on company standards (pix, fonts, etc.) and knows how to make a screen *look* good. Colors, fonts, UI layout is better left for the graphically artistic people.

    I could care LESS about PHP or any scripting languages as I'm just knocking out html screens. Every website in the world could go PHP and I could really care less. It's not like anyone on theserverside.com is designing maps.google.com type interfaces so what's the big deal?!! Now if I actually had to code in a scripting language I use Phython as it's truly OO and I've only heard good things about it.
    I find it hard to believe that you could work on a team ...
    Clients and large orgnizations trust me, for what ever reason, to be a team lead, hire and fire to get the project done. What ever flaws someone has if they can code, they are on the team.

    Ok, so people don't work *with* you they work *for* you. That I believe. Ever read Dilbert?
  106. html vs[ Go to top ]

    I'm just knocking out html screens


    and I am saying that PHP components *may* make your orgnization save time and money if all you are doing is DHTML.

    But where we have an advantage is that you can't do this InteliJ trick in PHP:
    http://www.jetbrains.com/idea/training/demos/UI_Designer1_viewlet_swf.html
    and that maybe in the future some of us will use things like that to make screens like LimeWire, or Poker Java sites or similar RiA.

    I use Phython as it's truly OO

    And so is PHP, OO, just like Java and 100 other langs, so I do not see advantage for a business, only precived advantage by bits and bytes guys.

    .V
  107. Please let me know which organizations hire you as a team lead, I need to make sure I'm not heavily invested in any of them and never will be.

    At first I didn't say anything, thinking maybe you had a logical explanation, but were just suffering from poor grammar. Now I see that you truly do not know what you're talking about.
  108. PHP and OO?[ Go to top ]

    I think you might be able to do "modern" OO programming in PHP, but it doesn´t really suit the language. It´s API calls look a lot like C to me, it´s totally not-OO. It´s totally lacking in term of variable scopes. Until version 5 it did not have interfaces. Inheritance was by copying code...

    Even languages like Javascript are more OO than PHP.

    PHP is really not an OO language. There is a difference between OO-look-alike and OO.

    That aside, you can "try" a lot of those PHP CMS, but look at the "references": Vingette is powering the largest of those (I guess), and quite many of those PHP CMS are not really usable (even though a lot of people try them).

    Java is best on the server. That is, e.g. because it´s fairly secure (which PHP is not), and is made for OO design.

    Of course there are some crazy PHP people out there that can make large PHP projects work, but in general I wouldn´t choose that language on a larger project (IDE support is lacking as well).
  109. Who made Vic so angry?[ Go to top ]

    Why does Vic always make compairisons like this? Let me follow the logic.

    There are more Ford Rangers on the road then dump trucks, plus Ford Rangers are cheaper, and no learning curve to drive them. That must mean that dump trucks are crap. I guess construction companies should replace them with small pickups.

    A pilot can get a license to fly a small plane in 6 months, but it takes years to be certified to fly a Jet, once again small planes are cheaper. This must mean jets are crap. Oh god why are we wasting all this money on Jumbo Jets!!!

    Why oh why do movie producers insist on using professional $200,000 video camera. What dumb asses, Vic needs to show them the light and introduce them to the $500 sony miniDV camcorder. Everyone can use a camcorder, they are cheap, and much eaiser to learn. Personally I would love to see the matrix filmed on a $500 camera!

    Vic, get the anger under control. I'm sure theserverside.com will switch to Ruby or Python soon anyway. Then all of us enterprise guys will leave and you can hang out with all the kids that will come to play in theserverside.com's sandbox.
  110. Who made Vic so angry?[ Go to top ]

    +1
  111. Cost is good or bad?[ Go to top ]

    Why oh why do movie producers insist on using professional $200,000 video camera. What dumb asses, Vic needs to show them the light and introduce them to the $500 sony miniDV camcorder.

    I assume then you are also upset when Friendster dumped J2EE in favor of PHP?

    I was! If camera A is better, great, if camera B is better we have a problem. Which is better regardless of price?
    A single circuit used to cost millions, and now for $75 we have CPU that have millions of circuits. Another bad example:
    300 horses are more expensive than one car, that has a 300HP engine to treck accross the USA. But look how preaty the horse is? "I don't care, I just want to go from NYC to DC"

    If you spend a lot of money on J2EE vendor A, that would reduce your profit on a project. Was it effective use of $?
    What about maitanance TCO, whas it modular?

    If I can do more with camera from vendor B - HELL, YEAH, I will use B!
     Are you saying things that cost more are better than things that cost less? Not in capitalisam they don't!
    Verasce Shades becuase you walk down the street and think you are cool? Or gold chain arround your neck?

    Some orgnizations will pick A, some will pick B, or C. The more profitbale organization will acquire the companies that lose revenue.

    Anyone can write a web site! Difference is that an enginner can do it more effective, thus increasing his value to the client.
    Anyone can make a car. An enginner can make it more aerodynamic and more fuel efficient engine.
    Anyone can make a bridge. An engineer calculates how thin the cable that support it can be.

    If 2 products are equal, (they are not) then I pick cheaper one for my client.

    There are comercial vendors for PHP. Cheap != bad. Look at Apache market share vs Sun and MS. Which is better? The cheaper one I say.

    In a DB, Sun Sparc 64 is more expensive than Opteron. Which is faster?

    hth,

    .V
  112. Ok Ok[ Go to top ]

    I will pick my words better next time.
  113. Cost is good or bad?[ Go to top ]

    Is Rolf posting as Vic these days?
  114. Cost is good or bad?[ Go to top ]

    Is Rolf posting as Vic these days?
    I was thinking the EXACT same thing. It seems like a Dr Jekyl / Mr Hyde thing. When Rolf gets nice and drunk (or smashed somehow) he posts as Vic.
  115. Let us examine some of the claims Vic has put forward in this thread and others:

    1) What ever flaws someone has if they can code, they are on the team

    2) Good programmers code smaller and faster than bad programmers!**

    3) You should always strive for KISS

    4) iBatis is the preferable ORM tool, because you still control the SQL

    5) Java could be the best client tool, if only Sun would fix the problems!

    6) If you have a rich dhtml client against a stateless server, PHP is a good choice

    7) EJB is not a good technology. Use it only "when you otherwise would need Corba".

    What audacity and rudeness! Heresy is the only word for it. What shall people say?

    To burn him at the stake is the only reasonable solution.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    **(hi hi what a surprice!)
  116. Who made Vic so angry?[ Go to top ]

    You have a point. But sometimes this J2EE community tends to load their Ford Ranger onto a Jumbo Jet to go two blocks to the supermarket, then load their food on the dump truck for the way back home. Then some people come yelling "we need better faster lighter Java" with the result that people take their bike to the local glider park and parachute down onto the roof of the supermarket. Then they walk back home with the parachute under one arm and their plastic bags under the other.
  117. Who made Vic so angry?[ Go to top ]

    Yes I was guilty of that at one point too. It took me about a year of writing J2EE application to before I felt like I really understood when it was best to go light and best to go heavy. Of course I still sometimes pick the wrong path, but less often now then in the begining.
  118. Who made Vic so angry?[ Go to top ]

    I agree, and I'm certainly as guilty as anyone. My problem right now is that I don't agree with the solutions that are currently the light-weight vogue: POJO+Spring+Hibernate+AOP+InsertYourFavoriteWebFrameworkHere.

    I'm really not sure right now, but I feel that many very productive systems are based on generically and dynamically composable and divisable data structures, not on API abundance.
  119. Alexander,

    What are your opinion of Ruby and the "Ruby On Rails" framework?
  120. To be honest, I haven't had time to look at them so far. I probably should though.
  121. Who made Vic so angry?[ Go to top ]

    LOL!!!

    +1
  122. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Do you know that the new Fedora (RedHat) Linux distro SHIPS with Eclipse, Struts and Tomcat out of the box allready? (other distros said they will follow)That is a bigger market then Sparc HW (Slowlaris HW does not even show up in TPC.org price performance). .V

    Vic,

    Solaris 10 is *faster* than Linux in benchmarks and a look at the improvements in Solaris 10 will show you why. And the awards keep coming: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1783993,00.asp. I know this runs counter to you extreme bias but this isn't /. it's theserverside.com so keep reality in mind when you post here.

    As for TPC.org, watch for this summer when Sun releases their dual-core AMD Opteron boxes using Sun's in-house developed motherboard & chipsets. And later next year when their CMT Sparc line ships: http://www.sun.com/processors/throughput/datasheet.html.

    It takes time to turn a ship the size of Sun around but clearly they are steering in the right direction now. Hey even their development tools are getting awards: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1783978,00.asp.
  123. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Solaris 10 is *faster* than Linux in benchmarks

    This seems like a more technical article and he says using MySQL on Linux is faster then on Solaris today.
    http://software.newsforge.com/software/04/12/27/1238216.shtml?tid=152&tid=72&tid=29

    As for TPC.org, watch for this summer when Sun releases their dual-core AMD Opteron boxes

    Now it says this:
    http://tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_price_perf_results.asp?resulttype=noncluster

    Current Sun stock is $3.70. At $2.00, I think is the mark when it gets delisted, so maybe by summer you work for Fujitsu. I am sure anyone can figure the cash burn rate Q to Q. But if you can post the TPC rating on TSS or someplace.

    It be great if Sun started using Linux and Amd, and stayed way from propratoery. Certianly Linux and other vendors will also likely step up by Summer.
    I personaly use jRockit 5.0 compliant JDK on Linux, since.. you are right, I am not sure if Sun would de-tune it; and I know jRockit runs great gc.

    Can you please ask someone there to fix WebStart please, please, please.

    .V
  124. wrong url[ Go to top ]

    http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/12/27/1243207

    (this is one comparison, E-Week has no data)
  125. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Solaris 10 is *faster* than Linux in benchmarks

    The above is for the 64bit kernels.
    Sun stock is $3.70. At $2.00, I think is the mark when it gets delisted, so maybe by summer you work for Fujitsu. I am sure anyone can figure the cash burn rate Q to Q. But if you can post the TPC rating on TSS or someplace. It be great if Sun started using Linux and Amd, and stayed way from propratoery. Can you please ask someone there to fix WebStart please, please, please. .V

    Vic,

    I don't work for Sun so the above is just rabbling. It's like assuming you work for RedHat because your Pro-Linux. Actually based on your stock market skills I'd say you definately don't work in the financial services area As for "propratoery", Solaris is just as open source as Linux is.... http://www.opensolaris.org and unlike Linux hasn't had things like SMP and kernel threading hacked onto it.

    Just look at the all features that other UNIX's offer than Linux doesn't and I sit and scatch my head as to why some people are so excited about Linux on the server side. On the client side I complete understand.
  126. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Solaris 10 is *faster* than Linux in benchmarks
    This seems like a more technical article and he says using MySQL on Linux is faster then on Solaris today.
    MySQL isn't exactly the best benchmark to use. Besides this test was not done with the new Solaris file systems ZFS. This is due to be released shortly which should have an impact on disk intensive apps.

    Have a look at:
    http://www.nwfusion.com/reviews/2005/022805solaristest.html
  127. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Before you ask (again) Vic. I do NOT work for Sun.
  128. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Besides this test was not done with the new Solaris file systems ZFS. This is due to be released shortly

    By the time it comes out, others will improve also. Sparc is overpriced and slow relative to alternatives on tpc.org.

    Don't know ZFS, but in somecases, a db's get isntalled on raw partition, since it does not get used as a file; so I doubt that "wait till next release" will land Sparc machines on tpc.org list.

    Feel free to find a sparc machine and see it's tpc rating vs it's cost. Then compare to alternatives. You can wait if you want for ZFS and the muticore Sparcs, but let me know if Sun moves up. I think clients get bad advice if they buy a Sparc server.

    .V
  129. the reason for buying Sparc[ Go to top ]

    Besides this test was not done with the new Solaris file systems ZFS. This is due to be released shortly
    By the time it comes out, others will improve also. Sparc is overpriced and slow relative to alternatives on tpc.org.Don't know ZFS, but in somecases, a db's get isntalled on raw partition, since it does not get used as a file; so I doubt that "wait till next release" will land Sparc machines on tpc.org list.Feel free to find a sparc machine and see it's tpc rating vs it's cost. Then compare to alternatives. You can wait if you want for ZFS and the muticore Sparcs, but let me know if Sun moves up. I think clients get bad advice if they buy a Sparc server..V

    I always thought the reason for buying Sparc is for the big boxes and the premium support. From past experience with Sun, if a power source breaks or DIMM goes bad, Sun will send someone out immediately. Of course it's majorly expensive to get the premium support, but if you can afford it, Sun is very responsive.

    In contrast, if you buy a PC, it might take 1-2 days to get the new power source in the mail. If the business needs immediate response, Sun does provide value. Most people would like that kind of responsiveness, but they don't really need it. Plus, with a PC you can go buy a new power source yourself from the nearest PC shop. For low end, Sun is not a good value on a small wallet.

    peter
  130. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Feel free to find a sparc machine and see it's tpc rating vs it's cost. Then compare to alternatives. You can wait if you want for ZFS and the muticore Sparcs, but let me know if Sun moves up. I think clients get bad advice if they buy a Sparc server..

    Vic, not everyone tries to get the absolutely cheapest thing possible. There are gas tanks for sale at Walmart for $1.99 but NASA (your client, right?) doesn't strap $1.99 Walmart gas tanks onto the Shuttle with $.99 Walmart bungie cords.

    We don't buy Sparc machines or IBM Power-based machines or HP PA-RISC machines because we aren't willing to pay the hardware / software / admin costs for 100% uptime. (Actually, we do buy those machines, but only for Q/A so we can test our software on machines that are similar to what our customers use.)

    OTOH, a lot of companies would gladly pay 2x for their servers if it would improve their uptime or decrease their administration costs. The hardware cost on some projects is relatively minor in the scheme of things.

    And before you get all mad and in a mispelling fit again, there's no doubt that Sparc has "brought up the rear" (or something with a combination of those words) in a number of $/tx benchmarks. That doesn't make Sparc useless, it just makes it much less attractive as the general-purpose compute infrastructure for a capital-cost-conscious company.

    And before you bash Sun too much, consider that they are the highest volume seller of AMD Opterons (x86 server chips) in the world. They've got some really nice kit, even if some of it appears to just be re-badged Newisys (or Celestica?) designs ;-) .. anyway, see http://www.sun.com/emrkt/sunfirev20z/

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  131. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    There are gas tanks for sale at Walmart for $1.99 but NASA (your client, right?) doesn't strap $1.99 Walmart gas tanks onto the Shuttle with $.99 Walmart bungie cords.
    It seems like they did at least once. :(

    It would be "funny" see an "Free as in Beer" Space Shuttle. I wouldn't ride in it.
  132. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    not everyone tries to get the absolutely cheapest thing possible.

    Maybe you want fastest thing possible regardless of the price that has great support from a stable company?

    Then you can look here for high performance regardless of cost:
    http://tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=noncluster

    tpc has many public independent audited tests. Some are price performance, for those looking for the sweat spot.
    Other tests are preformance, for those looking for the best.

    Sun does not show up well on perforamnce despite the cost, you agree.

    The problem is that some people think that a $15M servers are better than $500K server. Sometimes mass production of a standard component can drive the cost down. Ex: Sparc w/ 64 CPUs.
    I would belive that Sun AMD server would be a good box. With non propratery components you get better support, becuase you have the OPTION to fire you vendor, if you get better support elsewhere. With saftey in numbers you get better quality of componts due to automated production and multi vendor support.

    I am just saying, when you buy a server, compute the tps you need over then next years. Then look at tpc to see what vendors are in that range and negotiate from there.

    Alternative is to let a sales guy drive up in a BMW, and show you a powerpoint. You got sold!
    A good book for a tech lead is called"return on sofware" that talks about ROI, etc. Having a business side makes you a more valuable lead. I am sure vendors will tell you that more expensive is allways better and newbies would buy it.
    Just do your due dilligence, and pick a few machines in the range.

    One way to make J2EE more competetive is to get of of Sparc to a faster box.

    That is what I advise my clients, you can advise yours something else.

    .V
  133. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Sometimes mass production of a standard component can drive the cost down. Ex: Sparc w/ 64 CPUs

    Unless you are know something I don't, you cannot purchase a *single* Intel (or AMD) based machine that has 64 CPUs (and no, blades, or a 64 'pizza box' 1U rack servers don't count either).

    Plus even if you could find one, sticking 64 Opterons or Zeons in a single encloser would generate an immense amount of heat requiring some truly innovative techniques to keep things cool and stable.

    Sun, and others in the high-end server market, have many years of experience of putting together large number SMP systems. When you buy systems like these, raw CPU speed is not the only concern. Overall throughput and reliability also crutial for mission critical applications.

    The moral of the story is that you can buy Chevy Camaro or a Porsche 911. Both would do 130+mph. But which one would continue to do it the longest?
  134. HP and IBM[ Go to top ]

    Sometimes mass production of a standard component can drive the cost down. Ex: Sparc w/ 64 CPUs
    Unless you are know something I don't, you cannot purchase a *single* Intel (or AMD) based machine that has 64 CPUs (and no, blades, or a 64 'pizza box' 1U rack servers don't count either). Plus even if you could find one, sticking 64 Opterons or Zeons in a single encloser would generate an immense amount of heat requiring some truly innovative techniques to keep things cool and stable.Sun, and others in the high-end server market, have many years of experience of putting together large number SMP systems. When you buy systems like these, raw CPU speed is not the only concern. Overall throughput and reliability also crutial for mission critical applications.The moral of the story is that you can buy Chevy Camaro or a Porsche 911. Both would do 130+mph. But which one would continue to do it the longest?

    Actually, I think both IBM and HP have systems capable of supporting 64 CPU's. Not sure if they have updated it to support Opteron, but there are systems that take P4 and Xeon. Unisys has some also, but they're loosing market share like crazy.

    HP has superdome, which I think can take a half TB of RAM. IBM's offering is similar I believe. The last time I looked, both use their own motherboards and chipsets. Generally, they used switched fabric so that each board of 4 CPU's can share the same memory efficiently. Non of the BUS non-sense :)

    peter
  135. HP and IBM[ Go to top ]

    HP has superdome, which I think can take a half TB of RAM. IBM's offering is similar I believe. The last time I looked, both use their own motherboards and chipsets

    Correct, and as you point out, those systems are not based commodity/standard motherboard designs.

    IBM is also pushing their PowerPC chipset as well since it is in their best interest to sell more PowerPC based systems then it is to sell Intel and/or Opteron based systems, even though they do and will.

    Sun has Opteron to work with to buy time for their new multi-core SPARC chips from Toshiba to catch up. They also, like IBM and HP, will bring their experience in the field of large SMP systems and high speed backplane technology.

    However, I very much doubt that any of this will ever be mass produced as a standard component that would work across vendors and thus the idea of driving cost down by mass production is flawed in this case.
  136. HP and IBM[ Go to top ]

    Actually, I think both IBM and HP have systems capable of supporting 64 CPU's. Not sure if they have updated it to support Opteron, but there are systems that take P4 and Xeon. Unisys has some also, but they're loosing market share like crazy.

    HP: DL7xx can take a max of 8x single-core Intel Xeon CPUs 3.0 Ghz

    IBM: X Series 445 can take a max of 8x single-core Intel Xeon CPUs @ 3.0 Ghz, but can daisy-chain up to four into a 32-way server. (I've never seen them daisy chained so I can't speak to the effectiveness of the approach.)

    Unisys used to have a 32-CPU Xeon solution. I don't know it well at all, other than for SQL Server use, which it seemed pretty good at, if a bit pricey. Unisys used to have a 64-CPU option, but it was only 32x Intel Xeon, combined with 32x Intel Itanium (no, I'm not joking) .. I never saw it used.

    Sun's high-end kit is a 144-core US4 box. Obviously, it's not x86.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  137. Correcting myself[ Go to top ]

    Actually, I think both IBM and HP have systems capable of supporting 64 CPU's. Not sure if they have updated it to support Opteron, but there are systems that take P4 and Xeon. Unisys has some also, but they're loosing market share like crazy.
    HP: DL7xx can take a max of 8x single-core Intel Xeon CPUs 3.0 GhzIBM: X Series 445 can take a max of 8x single-core Intel Xeon CPUs @ 3.0 Ghz, but can daisy-chain up to four into a 32-way server. (I've never seen them daisy chained so I can't speak to the effectiveness of the approach.)Unisys used to have a 32-CPU Xeon solution. I don't know it well at all, other than for SQL Server use, which it seemed pretty good at, if a bit pricey. Unisys used to have a 64-CPU option, but it was only 32x Intel Xeon, combined with 32x Intel Itanium (no, I'm not joking) .. I never saw it used.Sun's high-end kit is a 144-core US4 box. Obviously, it's not x86.
    Peace,
    Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!

    looking at the most recent result for HP Integrity Superdome, they now have a system capable of 64 CPU and 1025Gb of ram http://www.tpc.org/results/individual_results/HP/hp_tpcc_sd_1mil_es.pdf. Though I honestly don't know anyone buying superdome. I know of one company that purchase new IBM mainframes last year, but they weren't windows or Itanium variety. This is all non-standard chipsets and motherboards, and doesn't fit the criteria, but still interesting stuff.

    As far x86 or Itanium based systems, I think 4x is the most cost efficient configuration. using BUS chipset with 4 CPU runs into resource contention under concurrent load. Atleast that's what I've seen first hand on a Dell server.

    peter
  138. Correcting myself[ Go to top ]

    looking at the most recent result for HP Integrity Superdome, they now have a system capable of 64 CPU and 1025Gb of ram

    Superdome is non-x86. It used to be PA-RISC, and now it's Itanium (which is actually somewhat PA-RISC compatible).

    In terms of commodity servers, the largest you can buy today for Intel is 8xCPU (or if you count IBM's custom daisy chaining approach, 32xCPU). With AMD, you can (as of tomorrow) get a 16-core (8xCPU) server.
    As far x86 or Itanium based systems ..

    Itanium is totally "non-commodity". It is a completely new and different chip, more different from x86 than Sparc is. And it has proven that no one can effectively compete with the x86 market, not even Intel.
    I think 4x is the most cost efficient configuration.

    For Intel servers, 1x to 2xCPU boxes are probably the most efficient, because of the shared bus. Also, you don't get nailed on the price until you go up to the Xeon/MP chips, which push the price of a 4xCPU server up by an extra $12000. (e.g. Dell 2x2.8Ghz Xeon/DP with 4GB RAM is $2,100, Dell 4x3.0Ghz Xeon/MP with 4GB RAM is over $23,000.) You can get a decently decked out 2xCPU Intel Xeon server for under $3k today.

    For AMD, there are now two sweet spots. The price/perf sweet spot is the 2xCPU box which will set you back under $3k today (e.g. dual 2.2Ghz, 4GB RAM). The other sweet spot is the 4xCPU / 8-core boxes, which will set you back somewhere around $10k-$15k loaded *and* will fit in a 1U.

    And trust me, I'm all for clustering lots of little boxes ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  139. yeah, your right[ Go to top ]

    looking at the most recent result for HP Integrity Superdome, they now have a system capable of 64 CPU and 1025Gb of ram

    Superdome is non-x86. It used to be PA-RISC, and now it's Itanium (which is actually somewhat PA-RISC compatible).In terms of commodity servers, the largest you can buy today for Intel is 8xCPU (or if you count IBM's custom daisy chaining approach, 32xCPU). With AMD, you can (as of tomorrow) get a 16-core (8xCPU) server.
    As far x86 or Itanium based systems ..

    Itanium is totally "non-commodity". It is a completely new and different chip, more different from x86 than Sparc is. And it has proven that no one can effectively compete with the x86 market, not even Intel.
    I think 4x is the most cost efficient configuration.

    For Intel servers, 1x to 2xCPU boxes are probably the most efficient, because of the shared bus. Also, you don't get nailed on the price until you go up to the Xeon/MP chips, which push the price of a 4xCPU server up by an extra $12000. (e.g. Dell 2x2.8Ghz Xeon/DP with 4GB RAM is $2,100, Dell 4x3.0Ghz Xeon/MP with 4GB RAM is over $23,000.) You can get a decently decked out 2xCPU Intel Xeon server for under $3k today. For AMD, there are now two sweet spots. The price/perf sweet spot is the 2xCPU box which will set you back under $3k today (e.g. dual 2.2Ghz, 4GB RAM). The other sweet spot is the 4xCPU / 8-core boxes, which will set you back somewhere around $10k-$15k loaded *and* will fit in a 1U.And trust me, I'm all for clustering lots of little boxes ;-)Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!

    thanks for reminding me how different Itanium is compared to a P3/celeron/pentium pro. For myself, a dual CPU system is the sweet spot. Especially if it's an Opteron, though I've had 2 different dual CPU workstations in the past and the heat kills components like crazy. Sun's AMD offering is maturing and improving, so maybe Sun is changing?

    peter
  140. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Besides this test was not done with the new Solaris file systems ZFS. This is due to be released shortly
    By the time it comes out, others will improve also.
    Don't know ZFS, but in somecases, a db's get isntalled on raw partition, since it does not get used as a file; so I doubt that "wait till next release" will land Sparc machines on tpc.org list.
    I doubt whether Linux will be releasing a completely new filesystem within 2 months. The MySQL test you reference does not use raw disk, and since ZFS is promising near raw disk speed it should make a difference. I would personally wait for Sun's new SPARC server line before making any judgements about performance. What is you obsession with TPC anyway. Ever heard of SPEC?
  141. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    What is you obsession with TPC anyway. Ever heard of SPEC?

    I work with DBs.
    Most Solaris is on Sparc, people don't get of Linux for Solaris AFAIK.

    The MySQL comparision used Solaris 10.

    So what do you think "wait till next version" of Sparc will give you on Sparc? Beats Optreon? PPC?

    .V
  142. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    What is you obsession with TPC anyway. Ever heard of SPEC?
    I work with DBs.Most Solaris is on Sparc, people don't get of Linux for Solaris AFAIK.The MySQL comparision used Solaris 10.So what do you think "wait till next version" of Sparc will give you on Sparc? Beats Optreon? PPC? .V
    From what I remember the majority of the 1 million Solaris 10 downloads were for non-Sun hardware (i.e. not SPARC).
    I don't know why you think Opteron is your great weapon against Sun, when Sun ships more Opteron servers than any other company on the planet.
    SPARC, POWER5 AND ITANIUM (unlike Opteron currently) scale to much larger systems, so except for the low end of the market they compete in a different market segment to Opteron. Sun's new SPARC processors for entry level server will have 8 processor cores. For the high end servers they will use Fujitsu's SPARC64 VI (>2.4GHz, dual core, 6MB cache). I imagine that puts them at least in the same league as IBM's POWER and Intel's Itanium will be.

    Nobody is claiming that Solaris 10 will replace Linux as the open source OS of choice, so would you kindly refrain from spreading FUD about Solaris performance.
  143. So deparmental needs are great for .NET./ w/ integration to MS Office. (Deparmental to me is less than a terabyte and less than 10K concurent users)

    10.000 concurrent users!? I think down here (Latin America) that covers 90% or more of the businesses. I guess I'll stick to the ease of development of Visual Studio 2005 then. I wonder what the rest of the people around here think about your definition of departamental...
  144. Vic rides on a pretty high horse. My pony is not that big, so departmental to me is a few hundred.
  145. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Millions get spent on J2EE and they fail a lot. Little gets spent on PHP and it deploys.

    They aren't used for the same things. PHP is a simple web scripting framework, and J2EE is a large set of tools which can be used for everything from simple scripted pages using JSP up to large clustered applications.

    Millions get spent on a wide variety of projects using a range of development tools. Many projects fail; there is a long history of project failures IT! For a comparison to have any meaning you would have to provide evidence of rates of failure of J2EE and comparable technologies which are used for the same thing.

    A fairer comparison would be between pure JSP projects and PHP.
  146. of the 3 ..[ Go to top ]

    Slowlaris.V
    You have either never heard of Solaris 10 or deliberately spread FUD about Solaris performance.
    (Slowlaris HW does not even show up in TPC.org price performance).V
    Solaris is an operating system, not a type of hardware.
    Solaris supports x86, SPARC and AMD64 (x64). At least get your facts straight before spreading anti-Solaris FUD.
  147. I think that most people would agree that Oracle is *one of* the top databases, and has been for a long time.

    On the other hand it used to always amazed me how every other product Oracle produced was total crap, I'm talking undisputed ground breaking SH*T: Forms, Reports, OAS, Designer, etc..

    But things have changed. Oracle has converted most of there products to Java. Forms/Reports are now just J2EE application running in OC4J, and yes the first version of this 9.0.2 had its problems, but as of 9.0.4 things run quite solid. At my last job contracting at the Navy their Forms/Reports application would go down a few times a week (3000+ users pretty big for a forms/reports deployment). After upgrading to 2 clustered 10gAS server. I am not there anymore, but in talking to my old friends the Forms/Reports app has only gone down twice in the last year, and the J2EE applications that we have deployed to those servers have never gone down.

    At the company I'm at now we are running Forms/Reports/J2EE application also. We have been running our single 9.0.4 server now for a year. We only have 200 users, but things have run very smooth. Security is integrated for Forms/Reports/J2EE via the OID, which we have synced up with our Active Directory. This is the first company I have worked at where users have been able to have just one username and password for all of our systems. Besides some problems we have had with Oracle XML libraries, things gone really well.

    I have never used IBM's Websphere, but I think that WebLogic is a great product, I have also been very happy with our Jetty/Jboss server. All of them work really well. My point is that Oracle has come a long way! I'm not saying that OracleAS is as strong of a product as the RDBMS, but it deserves a new fresh look.
  148. InfoWorld in their Test Center area has a review on Oracle AS 10g Release 2 where they are shocked at how good this release is saying that it should be called 10.5g, that it takes the prize as and end-to-end J2EE 1.3 certified server solution...http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/04/11/15TCoracle_1.html. The sub-title is "The ``write-once, read everywhere`` dream has finally come true".

    So it looks like Oracle finally has produced a worthy J2EE application server. Hopefully that will put the constant rumors that Oracle needs to buy BEA to bed.
  149. Choosing the right criteria is a powerful thing! The report may not pass your gut check but by reflecting on the chosen criteria appear to be objective. It's an art really...
  150. The URL for the PDF tells you a lot ....



    PJ Murray

    CodeFutures Software

    Java Code Generation for Data Persistence
  151. and another related thread[ Go to top ]

    http://theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=33163

    .V
  152. message from the other side?[ Go to top ]

    Is Vic still alive? Was he not burned?

    "It can take many years to decide whether or not anybody can be made into a saint, they examine very thouroughly what kind of good deeds or miracles did they do trough out their life"
  153. of kind of report[ Go to top ]

    John R. Rymer and his hard crew:
    with Mike Gilpin, Tamara Mendelsohn, and Kimberly Q. Dowling
    proudly presents kindgarden report for long-wood noise people!-)
  154. Forrester has alaways been pro oracle becuase Larry pays them big times. Listen to Gartner ...that is a reality and not FUD or fake
  155. I evaluated Oracle 9iAS a year or 2 ago as an alternative to our current platforms BEA WebLogic and WAS (websphere application server.) I work for a small subsidiary (500 employees) of a large company (20,000+ employees) who's standard solutions tend to be too expensive for a small business model. I was extremely impressed by the value it offered and it seemed like a perfect match as many of the management and monitoring tools integrated into the product meant that we could hold of on making another major purchase we had planned on. Ultimately we ended up sticking with our current platform. Our biggest fear was that Oracle is fairly new to the application server space and it's not their primary business, as opposed to BEA which had been in the forefront since the beginning and practically created enterprise messaging with Tuxedo. There have been way too many instances that I've seen large software vendors develop a new product only to dump it or put it on the back burner when they hit any sort of troubled times or change strategy. Oracle has a great product and companies with the tolerance to take on that risk have a great alternative. I'm also impressed with BEA & Websphere, and I've noticed since middleware is practically becoming a commodity (excuse the exageration please LOL) and other players are threatening to become real competition they've really raised the bar on innovation. I haven't seen that change in IBM yet, but v6 looks very promising. My hope is that vendors start considering what other value add they can provide to set themselves apart from the competition.
  156. If you're going to evaluate this document I think you need to keep in mind the intended audiance. Reading through most of the replies it seems most of the responders are technical people. I didn't read the complete document so there's my invitation to chime in and tell me to shut up. Documents like this are typically written for the lowest common denominator (*GRIN*), Sr. Executives, Market Analysts, or Sr. Level architects that deal with so many types of platforms and solutions that to make the document useful they really need to aggregate things that make those of us who love the details cringe.
  157. Latest Results[ Go to top ]

    I have used Enterprise platforms on a variety of OS and AppServers, Languages and Databases. This includes many Windows/VB,VC++,dotNet and Unix/Java flavours, various Oracle versions and SQLServer versions, Platforms and middleware like weblogic, Tibco, Websphere, Brokat and Microsoft products.

    I think Microsoft has always been first to come out with features. They were very bugsy, and I have lived in NT4 hell too when OLE and COM/DCOM happened, but I still loved IntelliSense and multi-tier debug, and every other IDE now offers somethign similar.

    I currently have a high performance, clustered architecture based completely on Microsoft tech ( ASP, Aspx, VB, VC++, dotNet, SQL2K, MSCS, NLBS, MSMQ3 etc). This includes x64 and i64 stuff too.
    Was not a Microsoft fan and this architecture was a legacy I inherited and improved upon (moved it all the way from NT to Win2003 in less than a year).
    Gotta give the devil his due. I have absolutely no probs with reliability, my app development cycles are quick and my performance is stupendous, and this without any big-iron investments. I have had absolutely no migration issues on Database ( from SQL 7 to SQL 2k 32-bit and 64-bit). I had only one small system bug in COm+ exception handling, and a Rollup Package has solved that.
    Most of my stuff is off the shelf 1U and 2U x64 boxes with a couple of relatively expensive i64 boxes thrown in. The only real costly stuff is the SAN. I found even the Database Cluster and stuff relatively inexpensive, as compared to my Oracle RAC Clusters ( I have it all ;-)). SQL Server 2000 has stood up to a lot of bashing over sustained periods. So has IIS 6.
    So I guess all the Microsoft bashing is a bit dated.
  158. Thank you Karthik. For almost exatly 2 year ago, here in TSS I was marked as noisy in the thread,

    "Are Java people the only ones talking about .NET?" (March 18, 2003 )

    What for? I had presented a job-search statistic that showed that Weblogic was loosing market share to .NET.

    http://www.theserverside.com/tss?service=direct/0/NewsThread/threadViewer.toggleShowNoisy2&sp=l18411&sp=T#77089

    Today Weblogic jobs are only 22% of .NET! (www.it.jobserve.com last 5 days), and

    the search, java or j2ee: 2441
    the search, c# or .net: 1873

    The difference is closing fast. You also have to notice that most of the Java jobs are maintenance of legacy systems.

    The whole scenario can be compared to Japan attacking US during the second world-war. Thanks to a stealth-attack they had initial success, but as soon Americas enormenous industry-infrastructure was turned into service the balance of power changed.

    The situation in IT now can be compared to right before the Battle of Okinawa.

    But even when the Java jobs are only 10% of .NET, I am sure that some die-hards will vehemently deny it.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  159. the truth always prevail in the end[ Go to top ]

    Thank you Karthik. For almost exatly 2 year ago, here in TSS I was marked as noisy in the thread,"Are Java people the only ones talking about .NET?" (March 18, 2003 ) What for? I had presented a job-search statistic that showed that Weblogic was loosing market share to .NET.http://www.theserverside.com/tss?service=direct/0/NewsThread/threadViewer.toggleShowNoisy2&sp=l18411&sp=T#77089Today Weblogic jobs are only 22% of .NET! (www.it.jobserve.com last 5 days), andthe search, java or j2ee: 2441the search, c# or .net: 1873The difference is closing fast. You also have to notice that most of the Java jobs are maintenance of legacy systems.The whole scenario can be compared to Japan attacking US during the second world-war. Thanks to a stealth-attack they had initial success, but as soon Americas enormenous industry-infrastructure was turned into service the balance of power changed.The situation in IT now can be compared to right before the Battle of Okinawa.But even when the Java jobs are only 10% of .NET, I am sure that some die-hards will vehemently deny it.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Well it's not surprising that .NET usage has risen since it started at zero. This will continue as users upgrade from previous Microsoft technologies? Visual basic developers were always numerous. I expect there are plenty more VB kiddies who will switch over to VB.NET or C#.

    The results are not all that surprising:

    http://www.it.jobserve.com/ (last 7 days)
    java or jsp or j2ee or ejb or weblogic or servlets or struts
    3916
    C# or .NET or Asp.net or vb.net or vs.net
    3010

    Dice.com for all countries:
    java or jsp or j2ee or ejb or weblogic or servlets or struts
    10898

    C# or .NET or Asp.net or vb.net or vs.net
    8176

    Interestingly I read a while back that Visual Studio developers numbered 8 million and Java developers 2 million. More recently the number Java developers is claimed to be 4.5 million. Hardly a huge turn around for MS from outnumbering Java developers 4 to 1 to having their fans such as Rolf excitedly exclaiming how MS technologies are almost as popular as Java.
  160. Please don't try to confuse situation by talking of the pre-web situation. The web gave everyone a second chance so to speak. The competition (re)started from scratch. Sun got a little headway by cowardly suing Microsoft but any advantages got by that is all gone now.

    Anyway thank for your numbers. Quite correct I believe.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  161. No, only 2 years...[ Go to top ]

    Please don't try to confuse situation by talking of the pre-web situation. The web gave everyone a second chance so to speak. The competition (re)started from scratch. Sun got a little headway by cowardly suing Microsoft but any advantages got by that is all gone now.
    The 8 million and 2 million figures are only from about 2 or 3 years ago.
    I think you will find the facts tell a different story of who acted cowardly:
    "Findings of fact"
    http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
  162. you are in the denial phase[ Go to top ]

    Jack, I am to lazy to read all this legal stuff.

    Anyway if the 8 million and 2 million numbers for only two years ago was anywere near the truth it implicit must have included non-web develpment. This discussion concerns only Web-projects which I believe back in 2000 (before .NET) must have been somewhat 20 to one 1 in favor of Java opposed to MS tools.

    2 years ago we have this "Yann Caroff Index". He recorded those numbers back in January 29, 2003: (last 5 days)

    C#: 186
    Java: 1396

    http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=17627&article_count=44#72363

    If you search today it is
    Java: 2154
    C#: 1218

    Even if "java or j2ee" and "c# or .net" give a more fair picture of situation you get the trend. Or do you?

    BTW have you heard this one, "What is the difference between a overrun hedgehog and a overrun lawer?" "With the hedgehog it was brake-marks"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  163. you are in the denial phase[ Go to top ]

     search today it isJava: 2154
    C#: 1218

    C# is just like Java w/ it's CLR and it can be crossplatform (like Apple's Objecttive C can). All the same design paters work or don't work, so no big deal.

    When I search for jobs on Dice just now, those are not #'s I get.

    .V
  164. you are in the denial phase[ Go to top ]

    &nbsp;search today it isJava: 2154C#: 1218
    C# is just like Java w/ it's CLR and it can be crossplatform (like Apple's Objecttive C can). All the same design paters work or don't work, so no big deal.When I search for jobs on Dice just now, those are not #'s I get..V

    Me neither:

    Java 9266
    C# 2815
    VB.NET 1324
    (And,
    COBOL 1054)
  165. Jack, I am to lazy to read all this legal stuff.Anyway if the 8 million and 2 million numbers for only two years ago was anywere near the truth it implicit must have included non-web develpment. This discussion concerns only Web-projects which I believe back in 2000 (before .NET) must have been somewhat 20 to one 1 in favor of Java opposed to MS tools.2 years ago we have this "Yann Caroff Index". He recorded those numbers back in January 29, 2003: (last 5 days)C#: 186 Java: 1396 http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=17627&article_count=44#72363If you search today it isJava: 2154C#: 1218Even if "java or j2ee" and "c# or .net" give a more fair picture of situation you get the trend.

    Yet again you ignore previous discussions. These numbers have absolutely no meaning unless you have evidence for one language actively taking jobs from another. There is no such evidence. For all we know the entire growth in C# could be upgrades from existing VB6 and Visual C++ users (I don't believe this, but there is as much evidence for this point of view as for yours). You have no evidence for the extent to which C# is being used for web projects. Visual C++ was widely used for all kinds of tasks. C# is its successor. .NET is the successor to previous MS tools, both server and client side. Hence, it's use can potentially expand with no impact on the use of other development tools. It's called 'upgrading', Rolf.

    Let me present some figures. The 'Vive La France' index, as I shall call it - jobs from monster.fr - today show COBOL jobs have risen (as compared to a month ago) to twice the number for VB.NET.

    Obviously VB.NET is dying, as COBOL is eating away at it daily....
  166. Wong again[ Go to top ]

    search today it is
    Java: 2154
    C#: 1218

    Search today (21st April) on jobserve for jobs within past 5 days (same criteria as you use), it is

    Java: 2625
    C#: 1299

    Either you have misread the figures, or there has been a significant leap in Java jobs in the past day or so...

    Looking through the first few pages of Java jobs, virtually all are for new projects. Looking through the C# jobs, many seem to be legacy - migrating existing C++ codebases to .NET, which is what I had suspected. Existing COM/VB/VC++ systems are being extended and upgraded to newer MS technologies.

    Thanks Rolf - yet again you have pointed us to a site which confirms my opinions.
  167. Hmm..I must have misread?[ Go to top ]

    Anyhow taking your numbers: (1299/2625)*100 = ca 49%

    Exactly as I predicted up 1% from previous month, although it is a little early.

    (it is not the 9th March yet)
  168. P.S.[ Go to top ]

    (9th of May of course)
  169. how about[ Go to top ]

    28th of february?

    ;)
  170. Hmm..I must have misread?[ Go to top ]

    Anyhow taking your numbers: (1299/2625)*100 = ca 49%Exactly as I predicted up 1% from previous month, although it is a little early. (it is not the 9th March yet)

    You still refuse to explain what this is supposed to prove. If you look through any job site you will see that a large number of C# jobs are upgrades from existing Microsoft technology projects using legacy tools such as VC++ and Microsoft-specific APIs such as COM+. If you used VB6 or VC++ and you code to the Win32 API, .NET is nothing more than the latest upgrade to your development tools. I would be curious to see how you could contort that into any kind of threat to the Java job market.... However, I'm sure you will manage it somehow!
  171. there is still hope[ Go to top ]

    Unlike you, I can be reasoned with. Yes the statistic can be explained the way you say, the rise of C# could depend upon the upgrade of older MS technology. So we just have to wait then do we, it can not be an unlimited source of old projects.. !

    Personally I don't think so because "why tinker with something that works?"

    But let us wait and see.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  172. there is still hope[ Go to top ]

    Unlike you, I can be reasoned with.

    I consider that rather ripe coming from someone who refuses to answer most questions put to him, and regularly fails to accept challenges to provide explanations or evidence.
    Yes the statistic can be explained the way you say, the rise of C# could depend upon the upgrade of older MS technology. So we just have to wait then do we, it can not be an unlimited source of old projects.. !Personally I don't think so because "why tinker with something that works?" But let us wait and see.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    As usual, you are completely missing the point. Some C# could depend on the upgrade of older MS technology (indeed there is no doubt of this). But who knows what the rest is? You keen on, ad nauseam, quoting C# and Java figures as if one has any major influence on the other, but your own figures prove that this is not the case. Just look at the jobs where both are used: Java on the server, C#/.NET for the client-side interface.

    Both are successful, for different reasons. Deal with it.
  173. an optimist’s Chrismas dream..[ Go to top ]

    "Java on the server, C#/.NET for the client-side interface"

    That would be truly idiotic. The other way around is much better.
  174. "Java on the server, C#/.NET for the client-side interface"That would be truly idiotic. The other way around is much better.

    Why don't you stop simply stating your evidence-free opinions and look up some facts? Go to the job websites. Check the project descriptions. Typical phrases are 'C# Front End, Linux and Server Side Java'.
  175. facts?[ Go to top ]

    Some times I am tired of you Steve, how is it that your "opinion" is more worth than my "opinion"? Eh?

    (It is lucky that I can see "Tom & Jerry" in a little window on my screen!)

    Accept the facts of life: J2EE is a piece of crap.
  176. facts?[ Go to top ]

    Some times I am tired of you Steve, how is it that your "opinion" is more worth than my "opinion"? Eh?(It is lucky that I can see "Tom &amp; Jerry" in a little window on my screen!)

    I didn't say that my opinion is worth more than yours. You see, I am not after opinions, I am after facts and evidence. When you have been a developer as long as I have, you learn to evaluate things for yourself and not rely on the latest fashions or opinions.
    Accept the facts of life: J2EE is a piece of crap.

    Only a few days ago you were singing the praises of 'Trails'. What does trails use? Tapestry. What is Tapestry? Let me quote from their website: "Tapestry exploits the dynamic nature of the Java language, leveraging the JavaBeans API, as well as servlets and other J2EE technology". And, of course, Salesforce.com, one of companies you like to put forward as an example of how software should be structures, runs on J2EE.

    So not all J2EE is crap then. So, which bits are crap? Perhaps it's EJB? Well, what else does 'Trails' use? Hibernate - one of the main influences on EJB 3.0.

    Well, I'm kind of lost now. You say J2EE is crap, but you frequently put forward examples of products and companies you admire which use it...
  177. unfortunatly I have to consider[ Go to top ]

    Well it is sure interesting to talk to you Steve but...

    Am I growing as a person?
  178. unfortunatly I have to consider[ Go to top ]

    Well it is sure interesting to talk to you Steve but...Am I growing as a person?

    I doubt it, as growth implies change, and all you do is go around in the same old circles.
  179. ahh, you're not using it correctly[ Go to top ]

    Some times I am tired of you Steve, how is it that your "opinion" is more worth than my "opinion"? Eh?(It is lucky that I can see "Tom &amp; Jerry" in a little window on my screen!)Accept the facts of life: J2EE is a piece of crap.

    you're suppose to put some seeds in the ground and cover it with crap. That way, the seeds will germinate and grow into a bountiful crop. Then you can take that crop to market. Of course, you have to keep applying the fertilizer to insure you get good growth every year.

    fertilize it!

    peter
  180. an optimists Chrismas dream..[ Go to top ]

    "Java on the server, C#/.NET for the client-side interface"

    That would be truly idiotic. The other way around is much better.

    Java on the server and the client interface, C#/.NET for the side?

    It's a riddle, right?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  181. an optimists Chrismas dream..[ Go to top ]

    Java on the server and the client interface, C#/.NET for the side?
    Well put. My thoughts exactly.
  182. an optimists Chrismas dream..[ Go to top ]

    Java on the server and the client interface, C#/.NET for the side?

    Well put. My thoughts exactly.

    Before this gets taken too seriously, I'm mainly goading Rolf. If you read my technical comments on C#/.NET, you'll find them to be mostly positive. If I were building Windows apps, .NET would be on my short list. (Fortunately, I don't build Windows apps anymore.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  183. an optimists Chrismas dream..[ Go to top ]

    If I were building Windows apps, .NET would be on my short list.
    Me too.
    (Fortunately, I don't build Windows apps anymore.)
    Unfortunate sometimes I have to and sometimes I have to deal with ones already built. I try to build applications than can be deployed to Windows.
  184. an optimists Chrismas dream..[ Go to top ]

    If I were building Windows apps, .NET would be on my short list.
    Me too.

    I'm afraid I have dealt with far, far too many wrongly labelled 'this is just needed for Windows' apps(*). I do my best to avoid anything that is OS specific, even if it means more work.

    * A good example of this is some numerical apps that were written in VB4/5 (because it is SO quick and convenient!). Now they are marooned on Windows while some nice multi-processor Unix boxen sit nearby...
  185. an optimists Chrismas dream..[ Go to top ]

    If I were building Windows apps, .NET would be on my short list.
    Me too.
    I'm afraid I have dealt with far, far too many wrongly labelled 'this is just needed for Windows' apps(*). I do my best to avoid anything that is OS specific, even if it means more work.
    Me too. :)

    I do have some clients for whom I must use [MS].Net (they intergrate with Exchange and SharePoint). Thus they are Windows only. :( Even then, I try to keep trying to push a more open toolset.
  186. Since when?[ Go to top ]

    Unlike you, I can be reasoned with.

    RegardsRolf Tollerud

    I'm thinking real hard and I've yet to hear you ever admit a statement you made was wrong. Usually, your rebuttable is well, "j2ee guys are afraid of change." or something along those lines. I could be wrong, since I haven't performed an exhaustive search of TSS database for every single post you've ever made.

    Whereas I definitely have admited error and so have others. Or maybe it's just the case that you're "always right" and others are always wrong. That must be it. Java guys are always wrong, even if they are right.

    peter
  187. Weblogic jobs are only 22% of .NET!

    This is, of course, completely meaningless, as WebLogic is a server side framework, and .NET includes very widely used client-side development tools as well. It makes as much sense as comparing Oracle with Visual Basic.
  188. yeah, but it's fun[ Go to top ]

    Bashing Microsoft is fun. I just don't take it serious and consider more like a game of foosball. Just like bashing Sun for dragging their feet with low end PC servers. It's all in good fun, as long as we have a sense of humor about it :)

    peter
  189. A special favorite[ Go to top ]

    As I said, Sun gained a little time with a sneak attack but that time is up.

    "It's all in good fun, as long as we have a sense of humor about it :)"

    Yes, and still more fun lauging and joking over something that is truth, like in
    "THE CASK OF AMONTILLADO. by Edgar Allan Poe (1846)."

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  190. As I said, Sun gained a little time with a sneak attack but that time is up."It's all in good fun, as long as we have a sense of humor about it :)"Yes, and still more fun lauging and joking over something that is truth, like in"THE CASK OF AMONTILLADO. by Edgar Allan Poe (1846)."

    RegardsRolf Tollerud

    nothing quite like reading your posts. it's better than fiction or reality TV show. it's all about the drama, volume and hyperboles :) As a Hollywood actor would say, "it's good tv." or in this case, "it's a good flame war."

    peter
  191. A special favorite[ Go to top ]

    As I said, Sun gained a little time with a sneak attack but that time is up.
    Given for how long you've been repeating this, I'd call that a helluva slow death! :)
  192. It has already happened Henrique, now we are working to get you to acknowledge it. ;)
    "Now we agree. Rolf and his holy crusade against java isn't going to tip the market anyway, despite his brave efforts here".
    Henrique March 24, 2003

    "Brave efforts" thank you!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  193. you're both wrong[ Go to top ]

    RoR will rule the world. Microsoft and Sun will vanish into the dustbin of IT. Zeus has spoken!

    Oracle shall survive, since Zeus likes oracles. excuse my silly joke.

    peter
  194. It has already happened Henrique, now we are working to get you to acknowledge it. ;)

    Rolf, thanks for sharing some of your higher wisdom with us for all these years. One good example:

    "I think Sun is slowly destroying Java, you think otherwise. The result obviously will be clear in a year or two so lets just wait and see.." Rolf February 01, 2002 Looks like we will have to wait a lot longer than 2 years for the results to be clear... ;)(Funny thread to read after all these years, BTW)

    I have to agree with you on this: Sun doesn't do one thing right, not even complying with your predictions! (You are always right, right?) :)

    Have Fun,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  195. as I said[ Go to top ]

    "It has already happened Henrique, now we are working to get you to acknowledge it. ;)"

    The problem is that times is moving along, unfortunately new things pop up all the time. While the Java people still ferocious are working on a MVM there are waiting things around the corner that may make .NET, Ruby on Rails, XAML, SOA, Indigo and AJAX look like mere bagatelles. I am of course referring to Software factories and domain specific languages (DSL). Microsoft now has a working beta, where is the Java version? Ah, they have a white paper! Then it has to become a JSR and after 2 or 3 years we will have the "reference implementation" from the committee. ;) Great!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    (don’t kill the messenger)
  196. as I said[ Go to top ]

    The problem is that times is moving along, unfortunately new things pop up all the time. While the Java people still ferocious are working on a MVM blah blah blah... RegardsRolf Tollerud
    So much for Rolf the infallible.
  197. I take it you don't believe me?

    I try to explain so even Cameron can understand it! (BTW why do you think Cameron is so thick, was it the beer-drinking or did the nanny dropped him on the head when he was a small child?)

    He said: "Fortunately, I don't build Windows apps anymore",

    Fortunately? Then I must say I am sorry for Cameron for soon everyone will work on "Windows-applications" How come?
    Because instead of building web-applications directly you build an windows-application that generates the whole web-application I mean a real application that looks like "one that a team of first class programmers have worked a year on under the lead of someone that knows what he is doing"
    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  198. P.S.[ Go to top ]

    We stand before the greatest revolution yet in software business. And please, please, pleeeaaase! Do not mention MDA!
  199. P.S.[ Go to top ]

    We stand before the greatest revolution yet in software business.


    Yeah right. I have been writing software for 30 years. We have always been standing before a great revolution in the software business. Its always just a few years away.
    And please, please, pleeeaaase! Do not mention MDA!

    Isn't that some kind of illegal substance?
  200. say it ain't so :([ Go to top ]

    You mean Rolf is wrong and the revolution is just a bunch of sales guys trying to buy a third porsche. If people don't buy over-priced software, how are sales guys going to afford their expensive toys? What cruel injustice!!!

    this message wrought to you by overly dramatic

    :)
  201. You are confusing "overdramatic" with a genuine love and curious and open mind for new technology, it is symptomatic that the Java people since a long time have become a bunch of nay-sayers. It is not only Software factories and DSL, no, Rich-Clients, SOA, Web-Services, AJAX, Ruby, XAML - it is all shit according to them. You are reminding me of "the association of socialdemocratic women" here at home that at one time advocated that parabol-antennas should be prohibited. And at another time one prominent member of them said: "Internet is just a passing fad". Don't you think it is sad? To be compared to "the association of socialdemocratic women"? This is what Java has become those days.

    By the way what’s happened to you? Are you helping out with the Barcelona VM? With the umpteen new version of EJB? I miss your wise-cracks about the SQL Server!

    How odd that it should end this way for us after so many stimulating encounters. I almost regret it. Where shall I find a new adversary so close to my own level? (Raiders of the Lost Ark, 1981)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  202. You are confusing "overdramatic" with a genuine love and curious and open mind for new technology, it is symptomatic that the Java people since a long time have become a bunch of nay-sayers. It is not only Software factories and DSL, no, Rich-Clients, SOA, Web-Services, AJAX, Ruby, XAML - it is all shit according to them.

    What gibberish. There is, of course, DSL work on Java, and HUGE amount of rich client work (the idea of JSF is that you can plug in all sorts of interesting client-side technologies) . Java is the main server-side language of SOA and Web services. AJAX is on Java, and JRuby is in active development. As for XAML, well Java people are more interested in standards that are cross-platform, and not Microsoft-driven.

    The only nay-sayer here is you, limiting your ideas to whatever Microsoft marketers throw at you next, and ignoring facts to match your limited world-view.
  203. " limiting your ideas to whatever Microsoft marketers throw at you next"

    But Steve why so grumpy today? None of the above cited acronyms are Microsoft specific! I have discovered yet another exiting language, (no, not from Microsoft this times either) Many languages has been called D but check out this one from Digital Mars,
    http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html

    Anyhow,

    I think your argumentation has degraded to "no it isn't". It goes like this:

    R. Nasdaq is done in .NET
    S. No it isn't becasue there are still some asp files around!

    R. EBay does not use EJB
    S. Yes they do because one guy from Sun said "I believe there is"

    And so on. I present solid evidence and links and you refute it on the flimsiest of excuses, pure hearsay, written on water. And after you write everywhere that you have debunked Rolf "opinion".

    It is kind of the same scenario as when some Java guy say, "Over 140 languages runs on Java! It is not only .NET that is multilingual!". This is not entirely untrue but check what Alexander Jerusalem has to say in that matter and a little more at,
    http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/m91830154.html#91830154

    You say that the Java camp *not* has become a bunch "nay-sayers", what shall I say? For each of the technologies I cited above I can show you hundreds of vehement attacks, but I am too old and tired and besides there is other things to do.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  204. Anyhow,I think your argumentation has degraded to "no it isn't". It goes like this:
    R. Nasdaq is done in .NET
    S. No it isn't becasue there are still some asp files around!
    R. EBay does not use EJB
    S. Yes they do because one guy from Sun said "I believe there is"

    You presented no evidence that Nasdaq is done in .NET. You showed that it ran on Dell Servers running SQL Server and Windows 2003. Evidence for use of .NET is supposed to contain the word '.NET' somewhere!

    Also, EBay themselves say they use EJB - they said so at a JavaOne presentation.
    And so on. I present solid evidence and links and you refute it on the flimsiest of excuses, pure hearsay, written on water. And after you write everywhere that you have debunked Rolf "opinion".

    On the contrary, if my refutations were so flimsy you would have no difficulty refuting them. Instead you resort to jokes and insults.
    You say that the Java camp *not* has become a bunch "nay-sayers", what shall I say? For each of the technologies I cited above I can show you hundreds of vehement attacks, but I am too old and tired and besides there is other things to do.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Part of the reason that I say that the Java camp has not become a bunch of nay-sayers is because I don't see any 'Java camp' - a very large number of developers with a very diverse range of opinions.

    If you do find a 'Java camp', let me know - it sounds fun!
  205. Confusion by Rolf?[ Go to top ]

    R. Nasdaq is done in .NET
    S. No it isn't becasue there are still some asp files around!
    RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Here is a simple question Rolf. Are you claiming Nasdaq uses .NET for their trading system, simply because their website uses ASPX? If that is the case, I can tell you without any doubt you're wrong. Nasdaq has their own trading system they wrote. Nasdaq's trading system is not windows based. They use some big servers due to the insane concurrency requirements. Go ask SAIC what Nasdaq uses. Oh wait, they won't tell you, since they're not allowed.

    By the way, it makes very little difference what Nasdaq's website uses. In most cases, what the webpage shows is an aggregate of real-time data. Yeah, it's those boring aggregates. You brought up Nasdaq. Although you consider aggregates boring, simple, trivial or whatever you call it, handling it in large volumes requires big hardware. The other viable approach is to use a data grid like javaspaces, which according to you is just more J2EE junk.

    enjoy.

    peter
  206. Peter,

    Although Nasdaq stock information is stored on a Hewlett-Packard mainframe computer (in ISAM files undoubtly ) all heavy lifting is done by Microsoft technology. Rread for yourself!
    And why do you not ask Cameron? I happen to know that he has inside information. Let's see if he is honest for one time sake.. :-)

    Nasdaq, the Public Site
    The Nasdaq Stock Market, Inc., was launched in 1971 as the world's first electronic stock market. Today, NASDAQ handles more share and transaction volume than any other U.S. exchange and lists the securities of more than 3,500 companies.

    In 1996, NASDAQ launched NASDAQ.com, the public Web site of the stock market.

    NASDAQ.com delivers 6 million page views every weekday

    From its inception, NASDAQ has run its Internet products and services, including its Web site, on Microsoft® technology.

    November 25, 2003
    The introduction of Windows Server 2003 allowed NASDAQ to reduce the number of servers it uses to run the site, first from 100 to 55, then to 35.

    http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/CaseStudy.asp?CaseStudyID=14814
    http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/ShowFile.asp?FileResourceID=3220
    SuperMontage, the integrated order display and execution system.
    At the heart of SuperMontage is NASDAQ Prime, the system that provides NASDAQ's market participants with a window into the SuperMontage order book. NASDAQ Prime expands market transparency by showing not just the top bid and ask prices for each stock, but the top five prices on the bid or ask. NASDAQ Prime encourages participants to enter more and larger orders, drawing more liquidity into the system. Because each participant can enter unlimited quotes and orders at each price level, market depth is increased.

    It has to handle a minimum of 5,000 quote messages per second scaling up past 8,000 messages per second (equal to 32,000 transactions per second), for peak periods.

    http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/CaseStudy.asp?CaseStudyID=14483
    http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/ShowFile.asp?FileResourceID=2860
    Intrested in OLAP cubes? Wyy don't you check Expedia Business Intelligence here,
    •Microsoft® SQL Server™ 2000 Enterprise Edition
    •Database Size: 750 gigabytes (GB)
    •OLAP technology:
    •Version: SQL Server 2000 Analysis Services
    •Number of cubes: 30
    •Number of rows in largest cube: approximately 40 million
    •Size of largest cube: approximately 1 GB

    http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/ShowFile.asp?FileResourceID=2419
    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  207. To Peter the great SQL server expert "Sql Server has a pool limit of 250, No one needs more than 250 connections or 64K of memory".

    Hi, how are you today? Perhaps you answer this question?

    "If we create an page that opens 1000 connections as quickly as possible. All use the same connection string and perform only a simple SELECT statement and then close the connection."

    How many connections objects are used from the pool?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  208. FUD[ Go to top ]

    To Peter the great SQL server expert.

    RegardsRolf Tollerud

    please do not spread lies about me. I've never claimed to be a sql server expert. I find your repeated attempts rather distasteful and childish. I've run enough benchmarks to know where sql server breaks for the type of work I do. Those results do not apply for other scenarios. Each scenario will produce it's own scalability challenges. I've stated the performance I've witnessed first hand through dozens of benchmarks under realistic scenarios.

    You've stated several times you have not done these types of tests. Therefore, blaming me for deficiencies in your skills or knowledge does not prove anything. 250 connection limit is a hard fact you can verify on MSDN. figuring out how to scale within those limits is something I am well aware of and have researched extensively.

    Here's my blunt challenge to you. Have you ever tried to benchmark a scenario where you needed to support more than 250 concurrent connections on sql server?

    peter
  209. Ok, I agree that is was a little childish of me, anyway, the correct answer is two(2).
  210. How real trading occurs[ Go to top ]

    Here is a little bit of information for you. Even though exchanges like NYSE, Nasdaq and London Stock Exchange all provide data feed services for the top buy/sell, most traders still call each other to get a feel for what the top price is. This is because often the quoted top buy/sell price isn't accurate. For the data feed to be useful, the quantities have to match. It makes absolutely no difference to a trader if Nasdaq is saying MSFT 200.00/share. If the trader needs to buy 200K shares, he's going to have to buy several lots and do price averaging. Without a basic understanding of how trading occurs in reality, it's very easy to be impressed with marketing stuff. I don't blame you for mis-using white-papers that are meat to be PR material. Most people in the financial industry ignore this stuff and have a good laugh. Even though it gets very tiring explaining basic stuff to you, I'm hoping this will help clarify one of the many mis-conceptions you have about these silly white-papers.

    peter
  211. To Peter the great SQL server expert "Sql Server has a pool limit of 250, No one needs more than 250 connections or 64K of memory".Hi, how are you today? Perhaps you answer this question?"If we create an page that opens 1000 connections as quickly as possible. All use the same connection string and perform only a simple SELECT statement and then close the connection."How many connections objects are used from the pool?RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Hmm. Where did you get this an the previous "SQL Server" questions from? Your experience or ... http://www.sql-server-performance.com/sk_connection_pooling_myths.asp
  212. But Mark,[ Go to top ]

    you give the show away! I had planned to spring those answer upon him after he made a fool of himself! But he is too smart and careful and refused to answer. A wise decision. But at least Peter has acknowledged that he is not a SQL Server specialist - so, that matter is settled.

    Anyhow,

    When Java and .NET runs on the same hardware (as is fashion these days), .NET can take as much load as J2EE can. Or visa versa. The difference is only that Microsoft has the better price/performance. (you pay around 2.5 times more for a equivalent J2EE/Oracle system)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  213. But Mark,[ Go to top ]

    you give the show away! I had planned to spring those answer upon him after he made a fool of himself! But he is too smart and careful and refused to answer. A wise decision. But at least Peter has acknowledged that he is not a SQL Server specialist - so, that matter is settled.
    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud

    what are you talking about. I never claim to be an expert in any topic. You're the only one making that claim. The reason I didn't answer because from a JDBC/ODBC/OLEDB perspective, they make no sense. I fully realize I have limited ADO experience, and I stated that fact. Again, you choose to put words into other people's mouth, rather than address the facts. I asked you explain and clarify, which you politely declined. Therefore I responded with "no thanks."

    The last time I used ADODB, we chose to name the given resource, so that our ASP pages wouldn't have to hardcode those connection strings. So again, doing that is bad programming practice. Why someone would do that is beyond me. That's like asking, "what's a bad programming practice." The answer could be anything or everything. Just because one individual has more experience in a certain topic than some one else, it doesn't make that person an expert. Even if some one has 20 years of SQL experience with one type of application, that experience doesn't apply to other applications with completely different requirements.

    peter
  214. But Mark,[ Go to top ]

    you give the show away! I had planned to spring those answer upon him after he made a fool of himself! But he is too smart and careful and refused to answer. A wise decision. But at least Peter has acknowledged that he is not a SQL Server specialist - so, that matter is settled.Anyhow, When Java and .NET runs on the same hardware (as is fashion these days), .NET can take as much load as J2EE can. Or visa versa. The difference is only that Microsoft has the better price/performance. (you pay around 2.5 times more for a equivalent J2EE/Oracle system)RegardsRolf Tollerud
    If you look at that link, plus google for some others, you will see that the questions have more to do with ADO and ODBC and less (if anything) with SQL Server. The same questions can be applied to Oracle and DB2 and ... .
  215. To Peter the great SQL server expert "Sql Server has a pool limit of 250, No one needs more than 250 connections or 64K of memory".Hi, how are you today? Perhaps you answer this question?"If we create an page that opens 1000 connections as quickly as possible. All use the same connection string and perform only a simple SELECT statement and then close the connection."How many connections objects are used from the pool?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Hmm. Where did you get this an the previous "SQL Server" questions from? Your experience or ... http://www.sql-server-performance.com/sk_connection_pooling_myths.asp
    I'd bet the only experience Rolf has had lately is at googling... ;) Cut him off google and let's see how far he goes. That's the benchmark I'd like to see! :D
  216. please tell me more![ Go to top ]

    Henrique,

    You know the reason for the fun of posting to TSS? Part of the reason is of course the unbelievable arrogance of the Sun/Java/Oracle camp. Today Peter is pontificating over embedded connection strings, another time you tried to tell me how to set user session object.

    It is things like that that makes to the laughing stock of the IT industry.
  217. please tell me more![ Go to top ]

    Henrique,You know the reason for the fun of posting to TSS? Part of the reason is of course the unbelievable blah blah blah...
    The other part of the fun must be googling, I am sure! :)
  218. please tell me more![ Go to top ]

    It is things like that that makes to the laughing stock of the IT industry.
    Can you actually hear us laughting? Amazing! :)
  219. please tell me more![ Go to top ]

    It is things like that that makes to the laughing stock of the IT industry.
    Can you actually hear us laughting? Amazing! :)

    I'm thinking, Rolf really hardcodes the connection strings in his UI. I guess that's ok, if the database always has the same IP address and the database name is always the same. Though what happens if 1 developer works on his own database, while another one works on applying fixes. I would think you need to have two different databases running on a single SqlServer.

    most apps I've worked on, that's not acceptable :)

    peter
  220. please tell me more![ Go to top ]

    most apps I've worked on, that's not acceptable :)peter
    I am sure it is not acceptable for most apps Rolf has googled on too! :)
  221. So that's where the questions came from[ Go to top ]

    To Peter the great SQL server expert "Sql Server has a pool limit of 250, No one needs more than 250 connections or 64K of memory".Hi, how are you today? Perhaps you answer this question?"If we create an page that opens 1000 connections as quickly as possible. All use the same connection string and perform only a simple SELECT statement and then close the connection."How many connections objects are used from the pool?RegardsRolf Tollerud
    Hmm. Where did you get this an the previous "SQL Server" questions from? Your experience or ... http://www.sql-server-performance.com/sk_connection_pooling_myths.asp

    I skimmed that article real quick. Although the article does a fine job of explaining ADO.net, it has nothing to do with general connection pooling theory or practice. It is specifically about ADO.net implementation and general misconceptions in the ASP world about what connection pooling means. I personally wouldn't recommend a developer hardcode the connection strings in a page. If I happen to buy a new server, configure it and set it up, the develop would have to go change all the strings.

    that should externalized, so that you can change it in one place and be done. I don't believe microsoft recommends hardcoding the connection strings in ASP/ASPX.

    peter
  222. Peter you take the price[ Go to top ]

    "I personally wouldn't recommend a developer hardcode the connection strings in a page"

    Any more wisdom you like to share with us?
  223. "I personally wouldn't recommend a developer hardcode the connection strings in a page"Any more wisdom you like to share with us?

    seriously, what is your hang up? I really don't understand this need to make things more than they are. I would think it's common sense to make named resource like a database connection. Or are you saying you hardcode your connection strings?

    peter
  224. diverting tactics[ Go to top ]

    Nobody answered,

    "The difference is only that Microsoft has the better price/performance. (you pay around 2.5 times more for a equivalent J2EE/Oracle system)"

    Therein lies the problem. Attacking me does not solve the problem

    My last post in this thread
    Rolf Tollerud
    Irresponsible hobbyist - Microsoft hacker
  225. diverting tactics[ Go to top ]

    Nobody answered, "The difference is only that Microsoft has the better price/performance. (you pay around 2.5 times more for a equivalent J2EE/Oracle system)"Therein lies the problem. Attacking me does not solve the problemMy last post in this thread Rolf TollerudIrresponsible hobbyist - Microsoft hacker
    Nobody answered that for one simple reason: we've been arguing with someone who's trying really hard to become google's mascot. I'd understand that, since it could involve lots of money. But from a technical point of view, it is not interesting to discuss with a proxy for a search engine.
  226. Oracle is expensive[ Go to top ]

    Nobody answered, "The difference is only that Microsoft has the better price/performance. (you pay around 2.5 times more for a equivalent J2EE/Oracle system)"Therein lies the problem. Attacking me does not solve the problemMy last post in this thread
    Rolf Tollerud
    Irresponsible hobbyist - Microsoft hacker

    Honestly, Oracle is way more expensive. A small or medium business really shouldn't be looking at oracle in my bias opinion. For a small shop, you're better off looking at postgres, or mysql. for a medium shop that requires support, sql server is a great choice. 2.5 difference between MS vs Oracle is probably an understatement. The last time I got a quote from Oracle, they wanted something like 500K for a site license. Then you have to add on all the other stuff like a good Oracle DBA, the hardware and everything else.

    people buy oracle for the same reason they buy Sun. they aren't going for the cheapest. what they are getting is service and immediate response. there's no problem, other than the artificial argument you're setting up. from a end user perspective, there is no problem. It's the vendors that try to frame it as a problem. as a end user, we're free to choose the solution that fits best.

    enjoy

    peter
  227. diverting tactics[ Go to top ]

    Nobody answered, "The difference is only that Microsoft has the better price/performance. (you pay around 2.5 times more for a equivalent J2EE/Oracle system)"Therein lies the problem. Attacking me does not solve the problemMy last post in this thread Rolf TollerudIrresponsible hobbyist - Microsoft hacker

    The thing is, that equivalent J2EE/Oracle systems can scale up to very much higher performance. You can see that in systems like (obviously) EBay, but also other very high load installations. I recently showed you how major stock exchanges use Oracle for very high volume systems - far greater than the peak performance of that single Nasdaq example you presented.

    A big advantage of J2EE is that it scales down as well. I can use Tomcat/PostgreSQL/Linux to provide a robust free system. Considerably cheaper than the equivalent Microsoft solution. Therein lies the real problem, and explains why Microsoft have recently announced Linux support on their server systems.
  228. have to ask this question[ Go to top ]

    From your posts, I got a feeling you're using the same database for production. So I have to ask Rolf.

    Do you use the same database for production and development?

    Also, are you using database accounts to manage access privledges?

    From your posts so far, that is the impression I am getting. That's not to say it's right/wrong or good/bad. Small-ish accounting systems often use database accounts to manage access privledges. In contrast, many web-based applications do not use database accounts.

    In other words, there's only 1 account the web application uses to connect to the database. The user accounts are in a table, which the application uses for authentication and authorization.

    peter
  229. Peter the consultan in action[ Go to top ]

    Do you also have any good advice of how to clean the mouse?

    A thousands thanks beforehand!
    Yours truly
  230. haha[ Go to top ]

    Do you also have any good advice of how to clean the mouse? A thousands thanks beforehand! Yours truly

    I'll take that as an "yes". I don't clean mouse anymore. I use an optical mouse. you might want to try it, they are more reliable and cost the same. Microsoft has some, so you need not betray MS and buy logitech.

    peter
  231. haha[ Go to top ]

    Do you also have any good advice of how to clean the mouse? A thousands thanks beforehand! Yours truly
    I'll take that as an "yes". I don't clean mouse anymore. I use an optical mouse. you might want to try it, they are more reliable and cost the same. Microsoft has some, so you need not betray MS and buy logitech.peter
    Of course MS provides the better price/performance for optical mouses too, therein lies the problem with other mouses, no matter how clean they are: http://www.percept.com/news/microsoftpr.html
  232. Thank you!

    At least we have found a use for all the superfluous J2EE developers! What else to do with them? BTW have you heard this one?
     
    Q: "What do you say about the10000 J2EE consultants at the bottom of the sea?"

    A: "A good beginning!"
  233. My last post in this thread

    Rolf proved wrong yet again.
  234. My last post in this thread
    Rolf proved wrong yet again.

    it's a positive sign when Rolf responds with total garbage. that means he has no come back that is technical and must resort to silliness :)

    whereas I resort from silliness from the start and sprinkle in some fact bits.
  235. No, no, no[ Go to top ]

    That should read "Mouse advises the experts." Get it!
  236. Peter, Although Nasdaq stock information is stored on a Hewlett-Packard mainframe computer (in ISAM files undoubtly ) all heavy lifting is done by Microsoft technology. Rread for yourself!And why do you not ask Cameron? I happen to know that he has inside information.

    Any "inside information" I have about any account must stay "inside information". No exceptions.

    However, I can tell you that there are papers published (i.e. you should be able to find them via google) on the NASDAQ systems that are very interesting, including some explaining how they configured various Microsoft software to achieve scalability and failover features.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
  237. translation for you[ Go to top ]

    Since you have zero experience in this field, let me explain what this means for you
    In the first tier, six streams of quotation data enter NASDAQ Prime through Message Queuing (also known as MSMQ) and are received by a pair of four-processor Dell 6650 servers running Windows 2000 Server, enabling each stream to be processed by a separate processor for maximum throughput. NASDAQ's proprietary gateway transforms the mainframe-based data for use by SQL Server. The data is checked to ensure that no quotations have been lost and that all data retains complete integrity.

    basically msmq is used to filter and route messages. it's doing very little here, so it's easy to go fast. From what I know through industry chatter, the project had to because it was super tight on budget at that point. They could have used any other JMS to do the filtering, but they chose MSMQ.
    The second tier, running on Windows 2000 Server and SQL Server implemented on two Dell 8450 four-processor servers, manages all business logic using stored procedures. Each quotation, or message, causes a SQL Server stored procedure to execute four or five database calls to process the message and load it into the database. SQL Server business logic reviews all the reference information associated with the message, such as the state of quoting participants. It prepares relevant information to be included with the eventual transmission of the quotation data to subscribers. It analyzes whether, and where, the new quotation fits among the top five bid and ask prices. When a previous top-five price is involved in a completed transaction and thus is no longer available, the business logic prepares a message to advise subscribers accordingly. To minimize bandwidth demand, SQL Server prepares a feed containing only the changed or "delta" information since its previous feed.

    This quote gives the impression all the business logic is in stored procedures. I believe that isn't true. I've chatted with some people who worked on Nasdaq's system and a lot (ie most) of the business logic is on the mainframe. Most likely what the stored prcedures are doing is purely a delta or select top. For that, just about any database will do, assuming the DBA profiles and tunes the stored procs carefully. The heavily business logic is still using the old mainframe applications from what I know. I have no definitive proof other than speaking to developers who work on this stuff.
    Mission-Critical Performance and Reliability, Greater Customer Satisfaction

    The SQL Server solution is supporting 7,900 quotations (messages) per second and has demonstrated the ability to handle up to 12,000 messages per second in lab testing. With up to five database calls per message, that's a volume of up to 60,000 database calls per second.

    "One of the key benefits of SQL Server for NASDAQ Prime is its speed," says Al Santoro, Associate Vice President for Database Administration, NASDAQ.

    According to Nasdaq, prime is their product for displaying the top 5 for a given security. That means the basic process is something like:

    1. batch insert messages
    2. at the end of the batch insert, insert new entry to a table with a trigger
    3. trigger selects top 5 with proper where clauses
    4. result is propagated to the next tier

    If you google for Nasdaq prime, you'll see it's a data feed service. In other words, it's a service to filter out the noise caused by high trade volumes. It is not the transaction system, which actually books the trades, performs straight through processing (STP protocol) and performs reconciliation. For your information, you can't use Analysis service for this specific scenario because the cost of refreshing Analysis service would increase the latency. Using ROLAP in this case wouldn't be appropriate either, because the queries are very specific. OLAP is good for adhoc queries where the end user has the freedom to define the dimension and filtering value.

    peter
  238. as I said[ Go to top ]

    Microsoft now has a working beta, where is the Java version? Ah, they have a white paper! Then it has to become a JSR and after 2 or 3 years we will have the "reference implementation" from the committee. ;) Great!RegardsRolf Tollerud(don’t kill the messenger)

    You really don't understand how things work, do you? You have no clue about the range of things that are being developed and pioneered in the Java language. If you believe that innovation only, or even primarily, occurs as JSRs, you really need to at least try and get up to date.
  239. Our Experience with Oracle AS[ Go to top ]

    We have been using Oracle AS in production environments since 9iAS Release 1. We use the Portal, OC4J, TopLink, and OID in a product that we sell to clients to manage their 'Enterprise Reporting', including various report formats that come out of our Decision Support offering. Our conclusion about Oracle AS: It is unmaintainable. We are switching as soon as we can come up with a viable migration path to get our clients' content into another Portal/CMS.

    Granted: Most of our worst problems have to do with the Portal. It is impossible to move content from one installation of the Portal to another, so you can't have a Test/Development installation and a Production installation. We have had limited success with the 'Transport Sets', but they are so unreliable that they are often useless. And it is almost impossible to upgrade a server from one version to the next.

    Now I know that people will say they have had success with these things, and I'm happy for them. But this has been our experience. We have even had people come in from Oracle to help us with the upgrades, and the story generally goes something like this: "Sure, we can do that in a few hours! ... Hmmm, this script doesn't seem to be working... [a couple of hours on Metalink] Oh yes, I just need to run these other scripts... [desperate calls to other 'experts'] Can we start over with a backup? I was supposed to run these additional scripts first... [a couple of days later] Um, we'll get back to you on this..."

    My conclusion: OC4J and TopLink are both good products in their categories. OC4J, however, lacks administration tools unless you have the full AS stack, and I wouldn't wish that stack on an enemy.

    One last disclaimer: We were using these products on Windows, and I have heard that they are more stable on other platforms, which I am inclined to believe. But not enough that I would bother trying them.
  240. Our Experience with Oracle AS[ Go to top ]

    "My conclusion: OC4J and TopLink are both good products in their categories. OC4J, however, lacks administration tools unless you have the full AS stack, and I wouldn't wish that stack on an enemy.

    Starting with 10.1.3 release, ( developer preview of OC4J 10.1.3 is available on http://otn.oracle.com), you will find that OC4J comes with a management console, you don't need a full AS install for management facilities. If you have OC4J 10.1.3 preview running on your machine, check out the management console with http://localhost:1810

    raghu
  241. Application Server ? Java Based Application Server?? or Just Server (Client / Server)??

    On what ground can Oracle and MS come anywhere near Weblogic Application Server (JAVA)..? The report is certainly paid by Oracle to create confusion in the market... Oracle is trying their level best to break into the Weblogic/Websphere market...

    This report like any other report is utter crap...
  242. Oracle is trying their level best to break into the Weblogic/Websphere market

    Huh? Where have you been for the last year? Oracle already did break into the app server market and has been one of the fastest growing servers since it started aggressively developing its Java Server Platform suite. It has been #3 for a year now and is still maintaining its growth curve. Yup, this is a fast-moving business. Try to keep up :-)
  243. Coming back here after 5 years...[ Go to top ]

    Coming back here after 5 years ...

    Oracle buys both BEA and Sun!  Weblogic Server survives... There was indeed no real Oracle Appalication Server (proving that Forrester Report was wrong!)

    Sun also did not have much success with their Appl Server Offerings