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News: Laszlo Systems Ships OpenLaszlo 3.0

  1. Laszlo Systems Ships OpenLaszlo 3.0 (67 messages)

    Laszlo Systems, developer of the Laszlo open source platform and provider of rich Internet applications (RIAs) and services, today announced the availability of OpenLaszlo 3.0. OpenLaszlo is a package leveraging Flash and XML to create user interfaces.

    OpenLaszlo 3.0 has a number of new features, including:
    • SOLO deployment option - which allows the UI to be delivered directly to the user without server interaction
    • Unicode support
    • Drawing API - an API which enables the creation of circles, ovals, fills and lines and provides the foundation for charting and graphing components
    • Dynamic libraries - to add flexibility and reduce the startup time involved with OpenLaszlo
    • Performance optimizations to take advantage of the capabilities of Flash 6 and 7
    • A new name, from Laszlo Presentation Server to OpenLaszlo, to underscore the open source license covering the OpenLaszlo project
    Laszlo has been used for application interfaces as a replacement for straight HTML applications. A number of new technologies such as Ajax are competing in the same space.

    Have you developed rich client applications? If so, what have you used? Have you considered projects like Laszlo? Are rich clients trying to make a comeback?

    Threaded Messages (67)

  2. What a coincidence, today I just integrated a small Laszlo application in the website of one of our customers. More information about it in my latest blog post.

    I did quite a bit of development with Laszlo lately which mostly can be seen with Bla-bla List. I tried to relate about my experiences on my blog. For those interested, you can read them all by visiting its dedicated category.
  3. Tried Echo Web Framework?[ Go to top ]

    Have you played with Echo web framework? The new version (pre-alpha) uses Ajax for asynchronous client/server comm (http://www.nextapp.com/products/echo2/). I'm debating between Laszlo and Echo2 for my next web app. I've played with Echo but not Laszlo yet--I'm curious as to what your opinion of it would be.
  4. Tried Echo Web Framework?[ Go to top ]

    Have you played with Echo web framework? The new version (pre-alpha) uses Ajax for asynchronous client/server comm (http://www.nextapp.com/products/echo2/). I'm debating between Laszlo and Echo2 for my next web app. I've played with Echo but not Laszlo yet--I'm curious as to what your opinion of it would be.

    I've looked at Lazlo (looks cool and would work for a certain class of things) and I have used Echo. Echo is great and is just like coding Swing. I have even converted a [minor] Echo app to Swing/Webstart in a short time (hrs). The only thing I ran into was that row/column for the tablemodel is opposite. Had me scratching my head for a bit.

    The only thing with Echo/Echo2 - if javascript is disabled, it will not work. But then again, what good webapp (not web site) will?
  5. is this a java post?[ Go to top ]

    Hi,

    I visited the site and to my surprise, I noticed that it is a great product that has nothing to do with java.

    am I missing something?


    The post in this site misguided me. only for that I ask .

    regards
  6. One of the things I as a Java Developer would like to know is how to use Lazlo in conjunction with other Java based Web frameworks like Struts, Tiles, Tapestry etc. Most of the Java developers work with one of these frameworks and it would good to find samples of how to use Lazlo in conjunction with these. For instance I would like to have a rich UI based Navbar/header but the rest of the page would be regular JSP. If this cannot be done, it is not of much use to Java Developers already working with these frameworks as one cannot change their entire web applications overnight to Lazlo.
  7. One of the things I as a Java Developer would like to know is how to use Lazlo in conjunction with other Java based Web frameworks like Struts, Tiles, Tapestry etc. Most of the Java developers work with one of these frameworks and it would good to find samples of how to use Lazlo in conjunction with these. For instance I would like to have a rich UI based Navbar/header but the rest of the page would be regular JSP. If this cannot be done, it is not of much use to Java Developers already working with these frameworks as one cannot change their entire web applications overnight to Lazlo.

    You can integrate Laszlo with any other framework.you must consider looking at documentation for further details, for example datasource.


    The only problem with Laszlo is its immaturity, which I think would be verified in upcoming version such as this one.
    It’s a cool tool to dev RIA
  8. For instance I would like to have a rich UI based Navbar/header but the rest of the page would be regular JSP.
    Have a look at http://www.pragmaticobjects.com/ There are a number of rich components that are compatible with IE and Mozilla. Pretty impressive.

    Mike
  9. Flash vs. AJaX[ Go to top ]

    Laszlo, Flash, Applets, ActiveX: All of these technologies have a bit of an impedance mismatch with the browser... If you look at the Laszlo demos you will generally see applications that are hampered by being displayed in a browser window. On the Java front that's probably why more folks are interested in WebStart then in Applets.

    AJaX, Echo, JSF, Tapestry: These technologies rely on the browser... on the client side they make use of the browser's features (client-side JavaScript and HTML DOM) to deliver applications that are browser-appropriate (aome might say browser-hobbled).

    If the application that you have in mind really fits the browser paradigm, then the AJaX camp probably makes more sense. If the application is hampered by the browser, I'd go with something like Java WebStart.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
  10. Flash vs. AJaX[ Go to top ]

    you will generally see applications that are hampered by being displayed in a browser window. On the Java front that's probably why more folks are interested in WebStart

    +1.


    .V
  11. Laszlo Systems Ships OpenLaszlo 3.0[ Go to top ]

    Very nice. I like the wise selection of widgets and the multimedia capabilities. I've been looking for an open source toolkit like this.
  12. Bla-bla List[ Go to top ]

    For those that are interested in Laszlo and want to look at the source of an existing application, I forgot to point to: http://blablalist.com/developers

    Bla-bla List is completely open-source and you can download everything from the subversion repository. I was waiting for the Laszlo 3.0 release and the upcoming RIFE 1.0 release to formally release Bla-bla List 1.0 with source and some documentation. Those that already wanna have a look can do so now though ;-)
  13. I love the concept of laszlo. I think something like this could be made an open standard with a little work. The thing that bothers me is its dependency on Flash, which in turn requires that the files be compiled before delivery to the client. Actually, the more I've leanred about flash, the lest I've been impressed by their client because it's just weak abstractions on top of Flash in many palces.

    However, I 'm excited still by their roadmap indicates they are considering Java clients and .NET clients instead of just Flash. I mean, come on. We have Java, we have Swing (or SWT). We have things like Rhino for tying JavaScript (an open standard which Laszlo uses for client-side scripting). A lot of the pieces are there. I believe it would be straightforwrad, altho ugh tedious, to build.
  14. However, I 'm excited still by their roadmap indicates they are considering Java clients and .NET clients instead of just Flash.
    They have wiki for OpenLaszlo project... It would be cool, if wiki itself was made with Laszlo. Wiki has its own markup anyway, which is rather simple, so they will not have to create or use complex and bulky HTML renderer inside Flash.
  15. I love the concept of laszlo.
    IMO concept of Applets is the same but free from LZ/Flash limitations.
    C'mon: tiny UI applet works great with backend via sweet Hessian protocol and may use SwixML for UI markup.

    If JavaWebStart really supported Applets and worked with central repository for common libraries(commons*, log4j, etc.) to avoid repeatable downloads of those jars, we would have tiny and quick Applets, and great development/deployment environment.
  16.  works great with backend via sweet Hessian protocol and may use SwixML for UI markup.If JavaWebStart ...

    +1.

    I deployed a large Laszlo application and then switched to Java for front end (WebStart + JDNC).

    .V
  17. Java frontend in the roadmap[ Go to top ]

    Why did you switch? I'd like to know, I've been considering Laszlo and I'm interested in its shortcomings.
  18. Java frontend[ Go to top ]

     works great with backend via sweet Hessian protocol and may use SwixML for UI markup.If JavaWebStart ...
    +1.I deployed a large Laszlo application and then switched to Java for front end (WebStart + JDNC)..V

    +1

    Also did a Java frontend (runs as applet and JWS) with a Hessian backend; the backend is just a WebApp but coded as a regular class and the frontend is just a Swing app. Great!
    Even spiced up the Java GUI with gradient backgrounds, rotating windows and flex-alike buttons (with the neon border). Works great, looks great, performs great.

    The only point is the size. With all the additional stuff and helper classes I have a 1MB download, for JWS this is okay, but for applet it is more of an issue. But I read that Mustang will be addressing these issues.
  19. Java frontend[ Go to top ]

    I think that the download size of a JRE and the fact that it is installed on much less computers makes a Java frontend regrettably not very viable. Most of my customers always say no when I propose an applet. Even when I integrated PJIRC as a chat solution, many users had trouble to connect and use it. This is a real shame, since using Java and Swing instead on the client would be very nice indeed.
  20. Java frontend[ Go to top ]

    I think that the download size of a JRE and the fact that it is installed on much less computers makes a Java frontend regrettably not very viable. Most of my customers always say no when I propose an applet. Even when I integrated PJIRC as a chat solution, many users had trouble to connect and use it. This is a real shame, since using Java and Swing instead on the client would be very nice indeed.

    Yes, it would be great but I reckon that even if there had been a lot of improvments
    and even more will come, the Java frontend solution is never going to be accepted by the industry as a "standard"
  21. IMO concept of Applets is the same but free from LZ/Flash limitations.

    What exactly are the Flash limitations ?
    Compared to anything else (and applets in particular) it has a lot of advantages, for one, professional Flash developers and artists that can build GUIs using either pixel-level graphics or pre-built components, or even both. We have implemented Hessian in Flash, so that takes care of the client/server comms. You can just drop in media and it plays without having to write more than a couple of lines of code. Flash player does not require tens of megabytes of RAM to smack together 2 pixels. It also is less than 1 MB download. All in all, it kicks the living shit out of Java applets for most web-based GUIs and games and whatever.
  22. Imho, Flash's most important limitations are speed and actionscript.

    When doing something moderately complex things really slow down a lot. Laszlo's director (Adam Wolff) even states that it cool be up to 400 times slower than the javascript in your browser (which isn't fast either) : http://www.laszlosystems.com/~adam/blog/archives/000027.html

    Actionscript itself is sadly a crippled implementation of Ecmascript, with much things similar, but important omissions (http://www.laszlosystems.com/lps-2.2/docs/guide/ecmascript-and-lzx.html#ecmascript-and-lzx.differences).

    Last, but not least, Flash performs even worse on MacOSX than on Windows. Which means that you really have to be extremely careful what you do and fine-tune things just to get an acceptable speed everywhere.
  23. Imho, Flash's most important limitations are speed and actionscript.
    Speed for bytecode interpretation - yes indeed. But actionscript ? How come AS is a limitation ? What would you have ?
    When doing something moderately complex things really slow down a lot.
    Maybe you should take a second look at the extremely complex stuff Flash is able to handle without breaking a sweat. Get a Flash geek, he'll show you.
    Actionscript itself is sadly a crippled implementation of Ecmascript, with much things similar, but important omissions (http://www.laszlosystems.com/lps-2.2/docs/guide/ecmascript-and-lzx.html#ecmascript-and-lzx.differences).
    If you'd come up with arguments supporting that, instead of linking to a page that shows LZX's limitations compared to ECMAScript, I would have probably been interested...
  24. Maybe you should take a second look at the extremely complex stuff Flash is able to handle without breaking a sweat. Get a Flash geek, he'll show you.

    Every Flash application I try takes up a large amount of CPU and memory. On my Macs, several even run unbearably slow. I worked several times with 'Flash geeks' and I saw these problems there too. Many of them swear at the Mac version since it's so much slower, but still they need to take it into account.
    If you'd come up with arguments supporting that, instead of linking to a page that shows LZX's limitations compared to ECMAScript, I would have probably been interested...

    The thing is that the limitations on that page are mostly caused by the limitations of ActionScript. I don't think that they all still apply for v7 of the player, but older versions still have to be supported too. That's why I posted that URL.
  25. We have developed a large number of games in Flash, that require server-side integration, and have not experienced any difficulties or slowness on any modern hardware, including macs.
    Regarding the limitations of AS: we're using only AS2 on FP7. Also we've not had the need to support older versions, since upgrading Flash Player is something even grandma can go through without any pain.
  26. Get a Flash geek, he'll show you.
    I am glad that you did not say "he'll flash you" ;)
    If you can produce a Java IDE that allows you to create such slick UIs and graphics mixed together, I salute you.
    Could you provide a link to Flash app with slick UI, please? I'd prefer it to be some boring business app, not a game.

    By the way, have any of you seen self service kiosks at Carl's Junior? The UI is not bad. I wonder was the frontend made with Flash? Does anyone have insight?
  27. I'm really sorry my flashead colleagues are not here (working late as usual) so here's what I dug up in 10 minutes or so:

    Slick

    another

    As far as flash + business goes, see nokia.com or the new ford focus.

    cartoon network: business + games
  28. Slick
    As I said, UI is a matter of taste, I consider that particular site to be flamboyant and unusable: letters are way too small for me to see and no way to scale.
  29. Try this to get an idea of the range of UIs that can be build w/Laszlo:

    http://www.laszlosystems.com/lps/sample-apps/contacts/contacts.lzo?lzt=html

    It's a demo, not a real app, so don't expect all items to work.

    I trust this isn't what people think of when they hear "Flash front-end" :-)
  30. May you expand on this, please?
  31. Java frontend in the roadmap[ Go to top ]

    Slick
    As I said, UI is a matter of taste, I consider that particular site to be flamboyant and unusable: letters are way too small for me to see and no way to scale.
    Definitely done by "flash-heads". Wasn't sure what I was supposed to do. Felt like I was watching the Tom Cruise movie "Minority Report". Kewl, but the words where quite small.
  32. Konstantin, he asked for a slick ui. that's definitely slick, and the point was that to achieve this with applets or active-x or whatever it would take months and months of work just to build the 2d core and some custom graphics editor. flash already provides that and you can get nowhere really fast (tm) by just picking it up and starting coding / designing / creating graphics.
    It was definitely not an example of how Flash UIs are, it was an example of how far and wacky they can get.
    Speaking of taste, you might want to check out the customer list on that site...
  33. Konstantin, he asked for a slick ui. that's definitely slick,
    No it is not slick for me ( ostentatious and noisy != slick IMO). That is the point: slick, cool, etc. are personal things.
    Speaking of taste, you might want to check out the customer list on that site...
    1st - impossible to find (for me);
    2nd - whatever the list is it tells or proof nothing. Take for example list of McDonalds customers - it is really big, but it does not make McDonald's food any healthier.
  34. OK, this is stupid.
    Simply because you think Flash equals banners does not make it a fact.
    You've previously admitted that you have no experience nor understanding of Flash. Why bother posting absurd comparisons like Flash = McDonalds ?
    Thing is, you indeed have no idea what you're talking about and yet pissing all over it.
  35. Why bother posting absurd comparisons like Flash = McDonalds ?
    Mr. Radu-Adrian Popescu, did you bother to read my post and did you try to understand it?
    There is no comparison of McDonalds with Flash whatsoever, but example of uselessness of using user list as a proof of something.
  36. Yes I did bother to read it and understand it. It's a favourite comparison of yours, the healthy food thing. If you had seen the client list you would have known that the point was not in numbers but in names. Anyway.
  37. Yes I did bother to read it and understand it. It's a favourite comparison of yours, the healthy food thing. If you had seen the client list you would have known that the point was not in numbers but in names. Anyway.
    Is it your understanding caused you accusing me in “posting absurd comparisons like Flash = McDonalds”, huh?

    Dear Radu –Adrian, it does not matter, which names are there or how long that list, or what you like and want to promote. What does matter is that people have right to have different taste or opinion. They also have right to base their opinion on whatever they consider relevant. Just accept it.
  38. I'm sorry I'm posting like a maniac but I can't emphasise enough how childish and cowardly is to pick on something that you do not like as a matter of personal preferrence and build from that a conclusion and an oppinion on a technology, without having the common sense to acknowledge the good parts, while rambling about wheel reinvention, what slick actually is (not just slick, but slick-for-business - perhaps you should look the word up ?) and whatever nonsense.

    While I agree with you on many points and accounts - for instance on the whole soap-versus-corba debate - I'm terribly displeased with the lack of fairness you (and Jouralev) attack Flash for building easy to deploy, fast and good looking web GUIs. It's a shame, really.
  39. I'm sorry I'm posting like a maniac but I can't emphasise enough how childish and cowardly is to pick on something that you do not like as a matter of personal preferrence and build from that a conclusion and an oppinion on a technology, without having the common sense to acknowledge the good parts
    I do aknowledge the good parts. I already said that what Laszlo did is a great achievent, considering the platform which was not inteded for business UI. It should be really hard to build a limo from a ricksha.
    while rambling about wheel reinvention
    Is it not? I just don't see the point to build window manager on top of window manager (for that matter I am not fond of Swing as well), or even to build OS on top of OS. However, while it is an architectural nonsence, it may have great commercial success.
    I'm terribly displeased with the lack of fairness you (and Jouralev) attack Flash for building easy to deploy, fast and good looking web GUIs.
    Easy to deploy? Yes. Fast? Hardly. Good looking? I am not a kid to be bought by fancy colors. You said, Windows 2000? You got it, I still use it both at home and in the office. The best Windows ever created. Default scheme in WinXP is too funky for me, also it has features that I do not need, like user switching or remote administration, while taking more memory. Also, if you are interested, I prefer Windows Commander to Explorer simply because I can use keyboard for all file operations and do it easily. I prefer fluid web design to fixed. I prefer large fonts to small. I appreciate when applications correctly support changing display resolution from 96dpi to 120dpi. I set keyboard autorepeat rate to fastest. I squirm when I click menuitem in IDEA and it shows a blank rectangle first. I hate when I open second window in Firefox and the first window thread freezes.

    But you are right. This all is a matter of personal preference. So I do not prefer Flash. Flex/Laszlo is an attempt to milk a dying cow. On the other hand, if/when Laszlo port their thing to other runtimes, it can get interesting.

    Considering X Window. I am mostly a Windows guy, but I have Linux in the office, I try to work my way with it. I am not fond of the abundance of window managers, desktop managers, of the problems with simple cut-and-paste or drag-and-drop. I was reading about X. Apparently, it was designed as a student project, and later was enriched with different add-ons. It seems that X is not that simple, lean and fast as it could be.

    If Laszlo or whoever else came up with X alternative: fast, simple, programmer- and user- friendly, it may signify the end of browser-based web apps. But I don't think that X killer will be called Flash even if it run faster, simply because it requires OS to run, but does not use native OS task and window management services. JDNC + SWT seems more promising both from archtectural and functional point of view right now. And the fact that you cannot create a slide effect with one command, is actually a benefit.
  40. Having a native GUI for anything is something you cannot beat.
    Unfortunatelly supporting multiple platforms while staying native is a bit hard (wxWindows/C++, SWT/Java/GCJ seem to be the players), and the only fast, lean and mean pure Java Swing application I've ever seens is IDEA.
    I do not agree with the assertion that Flash is a dying cow, really. It's an ubiquitous 2D graphics engine, that has gained built-in GUI components and a decent OO language. From a business point of view you'll find that a lot of customers would rather have that over Applets. And you _can_ build quality business UIs with it. That's the whole point I'm making here, and it's based on actual commercial experience.
  41. From a business point of view you'll find that a lot of customers would rather have that over Applets.
    From a business point of view car manufacturers in pre-Nader era were reluctant to install seatbelts, because they did not want potential customers to think that cars were dangerous (which they actually are). From a different business point of view they now shout how safe their cars are. They even show cars in the test lab, going into the concrete slab, but again for some business reason they do not show actual impact, and thus these ads look really stupid.

    So, business reasons have absolutely nothing with technical reasons or with architectural beauty. There is only one business reason -- sell more.
  42. A rather moot point.
  43. I'm really sorry my flashead colleagues are not here (working late as usual) so here's what I dug up in 10 minutes or so:SlickanotherAs far as flash + business goes, see nokia.com or the new ford focus.cartoon network: business + games
    You call them slick? Single-language, fixed-font size (usually too small, Cartoon Network flash is probably the most tolerable), fixed "window" size, no real menu, no right click, no help, no secondary window support (while I prefer to have as few windows as possible), no real keyboard support, the list goes on. Just jumping and rolling. Yuck. Had to close every one of them in fifteen seconds or less, I physically wanted to throw up. It's revolting.

    I guess, too much visual possibilites plays a dirty trick with Flash developers, who want to use it all. This works against them and against Macromedia/Laszlo, since only 2-year olds would like to look at this madness.

    Slick in terms of business app means convenient, configurable, easy-to-use, friendly, with fast response, using well-known and defined menu names, button names, keyboard combinations, etc. Also, if I resize a browser window, I guess it is obvious that I want its content to be resized too.

    P.S. The guy who uses Flash to advertise his sites, actually does a pretty good job with sites themselves -- in plain HTML.
  44. whatever[ Go to top ]

    This discussion is really ridiculous.
    Slick is a matter of preferrence. You must obviously have a different idea of what slick is; I guess to you Windows 2000 is.
    I for one happen to think that it's rather... narrow minded to pick the parts _you_ don't like, poster them all over and mock at them, while ignoring everything else.
    Oh well... why even bother. After all, I'm talking to someone who can't google or browse around macromedia's site, and another one who's spent a week trying to build an app with Laszlo and after having failed, went back to applets and dismissed Flash as wheel reinvention and banner-material. Right.
  45. And also the RIA center at Macromedia
  46. Nice to see that people here are picking up on the OpenLaszlo 3.0 release!

    I thought I'd post a few clarifications. OpenLaszlo (LZX) does not use ActionScript as its scripting language. It does rely on Flash's bytecode interpreter, which is normally used to run ActionScript compiled by the Flash MX tool. LZX uses ECMAScript rather than ActionScript as its basis, and does not use any Flash-specifc ActionScript APIs or object model (movieclips, etc.).

    At the same time, LZX does rely on the Flash player's "standard" runtime APIs (String, Date, etc), and there are a handful missing pieces here such as regular expression support. These could be added to Laszlo directly, without a new Flash player, and we're hoping to get to this over time. Some of the gaps mentioned in the link Geert cites have been closed in OpenLaszlo 3.0 (e.g., Unicode).

    Geert is on the mostly right track here w/regard to scripting in LZX, but having not used native Flash, he's not using the term "ActionScript" as it's normally understood by Flash developers. What he's actually talking about is ECMAScript/JavaScript in LZX -- as it's seen by LZX developers. The link Geert cites is not a description of ActionScript compared to ECMA/JavaScript, but a listing of differences between scripting in LZX compared to the ECMAScript standard.

    Oh, and the 400x speed differential that Adam cites, while possible, is not at all representative of Flash VM (bytecode interpreter) performance. It's not precisely blindingly fast, but it's anywhere near that slow, either. :-)

    In the future you should see three things happen with Laszlo runtime performance: first, that Laszlo apps will be continue take advantage of ongoing improvements in the Flash player (Flash Player 7 is faster than 6; Flash Player 6 is faster than 5); second, that Laszlo's compiler and runtime architecture themselves improve over time (3.0 is considerably faster than 2.2), and third, that OpenLaszlo will compile LZX into another, faster, runtime environment.

    Can't give any dates now. :-)

    David Temkin
    CTO, Laszlo Systems
  47. What exactly are the Flash limitations ?
    -Slows machine (3,0G P4) down when there are many flashes on pages;
    - Action script;
    - Caching policy control;
    - Size;
    - Proprietary;
  48. What exactly are the Flash limitations ?
    -Slows machine (3,0G P4) down when there are many flashes on pages;- Action script;- Caching policy control;- Size;- Proprietary;

    (I assume that you are compairing running Flash in the Browser with running Java in the browser?)

    I agree mostly, but to be fair: Java Limitations:

    - JRE version inconsitancies on client machines are a killer.
    - Doing multimedia stuff in Java is much harder then in flash.
    - JRE client instation process suxs compaired to Flash.
    - Seems hard to get approval to develop applications using Applets anymore. They have gotten such a bad reputation.


    Also OO based ActionScript 2.0 is not bad, yes the syntax is a little different then Java, but it is a great step from ActionScript 1.0. Speed is also much better now with Flash Player 7.
  49. Java Limitations:- JRE version inconsitancies on client machines are a killer.- Doing multimedia stuff in Java is much harder then in flash.- JRE client instation process suxs compaired to Flash.- Seems hard to get approval to develop applications using Applets anymore. They have gotten such a bad reputation.

    Yes, there are problems with Java on client, but they are not that hard to address. At least Java based solution is more sound from technical/architectural perspective.
    It is not a hack :)

    Personally I enjoy Flash Blocker Plugin in Mozilla not because of privacy concerns but because Flash is too flashy :)
  50. Yes, there are problems with Java on client, but they are not that hard to address. At least Java based solution is more sound from technical/architectural perspective. It is not a hack :)
    They are sometimes extremely hard to address. It all depends on your requirements, target audience and such.
    Flash itself is _not_ a hack. The previous poster claimed Laszlo is.
    From a technical/architectural perspective it is not different from any other remote client. It can very well do asynchronous communication, xml, sockets, http. It's got an OO programming language and excellent graphics capabilities. What is not "sound" here, especially from an architectural point of view ?
    Personally I enjoy Flash Blocker Plugin in Mozilla not because of privacy concerns but because Flash is too flashy :)
    I personally enjoy having no Java plugin installed on my machine because it sucks bigtime: it's fragile, 90% of apps are dead-ugly and the jvm eats up a lot of ram.

    Konstantin, your posts usually reflect common sense and experience. However your comments on the subject at hand show great bias and bigotry (carefully chosen word; eg. _size_ is a shortcoming of Flash while Java's problems are "not that hard to address" ?!). Perhaps you can explain or refrain ?
  51. -Slows machine (3,0G P4) down when there are many flashes on pages;
    Irrelevant. Start many javas on your P4, each doing 2D graphics and we'll talk.
    - Action script;
    Again, what's wrong with AS? It's a quite decent language.
    - Caching policy control;
    Not sure what you mean. I think you can control most of the caching using standard HTTP.
    - Size;
    Do you mean the 900K player that's installed on 98.5% of the desktops around the world? Right.
    - Proprietary;
    I really don't find that to be a problem. When Swing becomes open give me a buzz.

    To me it's rather obvious that the above list is nonsense. Have you ever developed a project that used Flash extensively ?
  52. -Slows machine (3,0G P4) down when there are many flashes on pages;
    Irrelevant. Start many javas on your P4, each doing 2D graphics and we'll talk.

    All the applets are working inside of one JVM so your comments is nonsensical, but it really looks like every flash file runs inside of its ovm FlashVM
    - Action script;
    Again, what's wrong with AS? It's a quite decent language.
    And it is accompanied by many decent IDEs like IDEA, NetBeans and Eclipse, right?
    - Caching policy control;
    Not sure what you mean. I think you can control most of the caching using standard HTTP.
    Is there a way to create shared Flash library and share it between Flashes. Control its caching?
    - Size;
    Do you mean the 900K player that's installed on 98.5% of the desktops around the world? Right.Size of actual Flashes that easily surpass size of applets.

    Have you ever developed a project that used Flash extensively ?
    Attempted to do it with Laszlo but quickly (after a week) abandoned this idea and created applet in 1 day that does intended thing.
  53. Konstantin, your experience is with Laszlo. Laszlo is not Flash. If all you know about Flash is the annoying banners then perhaps you should not criticise it.
    As far as the IDE support goes you again seem to have no idea of what you're talking about. If you can produce a Java IDE that allows you to create such slick UIs and graphics mixed together, I salute you. It's _not_ all about code completion and refactoring. Definitely not.
    You seem to be looking at this from a one-man-show perspective. Not all projects are built like that. Actually I dare say that almost no Flash/back-end projects are built like that, except maybe those based on systems like Laszlo or Macromedia's counter-offering. You usually have one or more Flash designers and programmers on the front-end, that integrate with back-end services coded by "server-side" programmers. Be it SOAP, custom XML or binary protocols you then bring the two together. There is little, if any involvement of die-hard back-end programmers with the front-end, something not so common these days.
    I actually have written a code generator for Flash that makes the UI-to-backend integration automatic, something along the lines of using Java interfaces as IDL, with Hessian. While doing this I've enjoyed working with mtasc, a free Flash compiler, on my amd64 running Linux FC3. So it's not like you're all locked into Flash MX ;-)
  54. Radu, I'm very interested in your Actionscript port of Hessian. Is there any chance of open-source that and possibly integrate/contribute that to OpenLaszlo. Hessian really is a nice protocol.
  55. Radu, I'm very interested in your Actionscript port of Hessian. Is there any chance of open-source that and possibly integrate/contribute that to OpenLaszlo. Hessian really is a nice protocol.
    Not sure at the moment. If we do, an announcement will be made to the hessian-interest mailing list at Caucho. We have so far contributed the C++ client (the first hessian implementation outside Caucho) and as soon as I can clear up the politics involved I will make sure it gets out. So the best I can do at the moment is to assure you I want it to be open sourced, and I hope to get to sort things out in the next few weeks.
  56. Konstantin, your experience is with Laszlo. Laszlo is not Flash.
    This thread is about Lz, and Lz utilizes Flash so my experience counts.
    If all you know about Flash is the annoying banners then perhaps you should not criticise it.
    Why not?
    As far as the IDE support goes you again seem to have no idea of what you're talking about. If you can produce a Java IDE that allows you to create such slick UIs and graphics mixed together, I salute you.
    - UI is the matter of taste; personally I do not like Flash UI.
    It's _not_ all about code completion and refactoring. Definitely not.
    - If we are talking about writing application frontends, than refactoring, code completion and code navigation is the big part of it;
       
    You seem to be looking at this from a one-man-show perspective.
    Yes, unfortunately I ran two-man-show past year, but such experience is a quite good for evaluating overall efficiency of a technology and its surroundings (IDE, etc.).
    Being alone forces to use most efficient and maintainable technologies.

     
    Not all projects are built like that. Actually I dare say that almost no Flash/back-end projects are built like that,
    …..
    You usually have one or more Flash designers and programmers on the front-end, that integrate with back-end services coded by "server-side" programmers.
    …..
    So it's not like you're all locked into Flash MX ;-)

    With abundance of resources at hand everything could fly :) Does not tell much about effectiveness and productivity IMO.

    As for soundness of Flash architecture, it does resemble Java and other remote client: therefore it smells wheel reinvention and I am positive that as people will start adding features to FlashVM (shareability, security, libraries support, more language features, etc.) it will swell like JVM.
    I yet to see a technology that follows a beaten path and does not come to the same point, take SOAP as an example, it is way more complex than CORBA these days :)

    And yes, yes, I really see Flash through prism of my extreme annoyance by F banners.
  57. Applet vs. Laszlo[ Go to top ]

    The problem is, it's java. I love Java. I imagine most people here do. But, believe it or not, others don't. And if something says Java, they won't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

    The thing with Laszlo is that it *could be* a language-agnostic thihng. You could implement a Laszlo renderer in Flash, Java, VB.Net, etc. Much like a web browser can be implemented in any language. And some add features that others don't have.
  58. Applet vs. Laszlo[ Go to top ]

    The problem is, it's java. I love Java.
    There are plenty of problems and annoyances in Java and certain people like or dislike things regardless of anything.
    However, if something *could* do something, it does not mean it will. Especially if it has exactly the same architecture and intent.

    I guess the biggest problem is that people carry NIH (not invented here) and WRS (wheel reinvention syndrome) viruses inside and they cause illnesses way too often.
    IMO Flash is suffered from ASM (acquired scalability misjudgment) – this stuff is contagious and mainly come from marketing department incubators :)

    Another widespread virus is CWIR (collective work and improvements resistance).

    Does somebody know where to find full catalog of such viruses? Any good lab tests to recognize?
  59. The thing I most miss from the user perspective in web apps are context menus via right click (with some other key combination I suppose, as I would still expect to have the familiar browser menu). Can it be accomplished with Laszlo?
  60. What about context menus?[ Go to top ]

    It seems that the final 3.0 release has something for it:
    http://www.openlaszlo.org/download/build/release-notes.html

    "Support for ("right click") context menu"

    I haven't used it yet though.
  61. What about context menus?[ Go to top ]

    It seems that the final 3.0 release has something for it:http://www.openlaszlo.org/download/build/release-notes.html"Support for ("right click") context menu"I haven't used it yet though.
    Has not that already been implemented in Windows 3.0?
  62. I'm mildly bothered by the dependency on Flash aswell, having it produce view renderables using xhtml, css and javascript would be fine aswell. What I really like about Open Lasslo is the usable UI language. It's actually usable, it supports sub-types, and it's not overly verbose. It's neat!

    This is what JSF should be. Instead .. gah, I wont go into what a piece JSF is.

    Way to go Laszlo!
  63. EJB integration[ Go to top ]

    I tryed to find some docs about integrating Laszlo frontend with EJBs. Are there some examples (without using Web Services) on how to call an EJB from Laszlo?
  64. Reinventing the wheel?[ Go to top ]

    Laszlo is a great technical feat, a smart hack over Flash player. Laszlo developers did a great job in converting multimedia player into application platform. But is it a proper way to do [web] apps? Every OS already has windows, widgets and all needed infrastructure for UI, I/O, task control, etc. Is is proper to repeat what was already done? And not even as a brand now OS (Be was realy good), but as the "OS-style tookit"?

    My OS already has native widgets. Not all of them are available from modern HTML apps, and this is the direction in which Avalon/XAML is moving. SWT moved there long ago.

    This is why I like SWT over Swing: for cleaner and more reasonable design. For the ability to create a window and to have native drag-and-drop features right away, provided by OS itself, simply because SWT uses native controls. So, Java Web Start application with SWT UI looks like a sensible compromise between native OS services and portability.

    And boy, how fast CPU does one need to move widgets with at least same agility as in Windows 3.0 on 8Mhz PC/AT? I find this extensive trend in software development really depressing.
  65. I have read this thread with intrest. And saw that people are suggesting many rich client platforms including Flash, java, Ajax, XUL, XAML etc.

    But you guys just wait. All these technologies for rich clients will be forgotten very soon.
    Beware ! ClickOnce is coming !

    In 1 year after it's arrival, it will be defacto standart for rich clients on windows.
    At that time you can forget about flash, Lazlo, webstart, XUL whatever.
  66. I have read this thread with intrest. And saw that people are suggesting many rich client platforms including Flash, java, Ajax, XUL, XAML etc.But you guys just wait. All these technologies for rich clients will be forgotten very soon.Beware ! ClickOnce is coming !In 1 year after it's arrival, it will be defacto standart for rich clients on windows.At that time you can forget about flash, Lazlo, webstart, XUL whatever.

    (You are not the first to say this or something like this)
    The big question is when will that year start. :)

    Luckily, Sun and IBM and etc have begun to see the light and have had a headstart.
    it will be defacto standart for rich clients on windows.
    It will become the defacto standard for "Window's only" rich clients for Windows PCs that have enough firepower to run .Net and a current version of Windows. I've been able to run webstarted Swing apps on Win98 laptops.
  67. It will become the defacto standard for "Window's only" rich clients for Windows PCs that have enough firepower to run .Net and a current version of Windows.

    And that makes how many of them in 2006 ? :))
  68. It will become the defacto standard for "Window's only" rich clients for Windows PCs that have enough firepower to run .Net and a current version of Windows.
    And that makes how many of them in 2006 ? :))
    How many people work at Microsoft + a few others. :)