Discussions

News: Sun makes JES, developer tools free and open source

  1. Sun Microsystems Inc. has made its Java Enterprise System (JES) and developers tools available for free. Open source communities will be built around the different products.
    John Loiacono, executive vice president of software for Sun, said, "We're getting back to being disruptive."

    JES includes six software suites -- high availability, identity management, Web infrastructure, application platform, messaging and integration. Loiacono said the identity management and integration suites would be first in line to build out open source communities.

    Sun only jumped into the integration business this summer with the acquisition of enterprise application integration (EAI) vendor SeeBeyond Inc., but Loiacono underscored how critical it has become in the software industry.

    "The game now is in integration," he said.
    The developer's tools include Sun Studio 11, Sun Java Studio Enterprise 8 and Sun Jave Studio Creator. Sun's N1 management software has also been put into the free market. All of the offerings will be combined with the Solaris 10 operating system to form the Solaris Enterprise System.

    The move drew raves from one would-be competitor, JBoss Inc. CEO Marc Fleury.
    Fleury argued that the move of an established vendor like Sun to the open source realm instead puts pressure on the rest of the old guard to follow.

    "Every major player in software now has to have an open source strategy to match Sun," he said. "Sun just detonated a nuclear bomb in the [revenue stream] of IBM and the other traditional vendors by open sourcing SeeBeyond."

    Threaded Messages (69)

  2. So what. Sun have just open sourced what they can't sell. Java open source development efforts have consolidated around Jboss/Eclipse. Why would one switch?
  3. I don't think we should be too hasty and see this as products being chucked into the bargain bin. Many people chose JBoss because it was free, first and foremost, not because it is technically superior to the commercial offerings. It didn't cost a penny and met most of the requirements for an application server, which was convincing enough for some.

    Now that the Sun stack is also free, there are many organisations that will starting looking at it. As ex-commercial software, the documentation and support material can't be too bad (this was a real problem in the early days of JBoss) and it has a recognisable brand behind it (there are still a lot of CTOs that don't know about JBoss).

    Lets give Sun a fair go here, even if it just serves to push JBoss harder in the open arena, any competition is healthy.
  4. I don't think we should be too hasty and see this as products being chucked into the bargain bin. Many people chose JBoss because it was free, first and foremost, not because it is technically superior to the commercial offerings. It didn't cost a penny and met most of the requirements for an application server, which was convincing enough for some.Now that the Sun stack is also free, there are many organisations that will starting looking at it. As ex-commercial software, the documentation and support material can't be too bad (this was a real problem in the early days of JBoss) and it has a recognisable brand behind it (there are still a lot of CTOs that don't know about JBoss).Lets give Sun a fair go here, even if it just serves to push JBoss harder in the open arena, any competition is healthy.

    I agree.

    Sun created Java. It is the first major software for free. No such thing came from Microsoft, nor IMB.

    Sun is a leader in J2EE (Java EE) world, but mainly as the "spiritual" leader. Sun needs some "material" influence to further strengthen its "spiritual" position.

    This is a good news. I want to see the Sun shine.

    Wei Jiang
    Perfecting Java EE!
  5. Open Source != All we need[ Go to top ]

    Sun must learn how to develop a community and loyal using his products, and of course, the community will be love if the how to and all the skill transfered not blocked.

    this can become the step to block JBoss movement, or all of this will only a marketing of unsold product.

    JBoss still rock, and Geronimo with Apache's mitocracy model will be a prefered choice, but of course with Sun Java brand, Sun will have an opportunity to get the market.

    We will see your strategy, open all , not open sourcing it will win it, but Sun just announce to open source it, community building is still another hard tasks to be finished.

    Frans Thamura
  6. Well, who said that? i dont see an advantage of JBoss over Sun's GlassFish [ https://glassfish.dev.java.net/ ] . Plus, the products opened are much more than application server. what does JBoss offers for Directory Server?
  7. What are you talking about?

    Open source developers have consolidated around Netbeans/Tomcat.
  8. So what. Sun have just open sourced what they can't sell. Java open source development efforts have consolidated around Jboss/Eclipse. Why would one switch?

    Are you sure that it is unsold ?
    i think sun Tooling and deployment stack reached an acceptable quality and it not YET ANOTHER THING in the market.
  9. Search the job websites for JBOSS then search for Sun JES. Face the facts. The market has already decided. It's JBOSS Vs WebSphere. If Sun want a share of the java app server market then they should buy JBOSS before Microsoft does.
  10. The market has already decided. It's JBOSS Vs WebSphere.

    You are wrong. The market has *not* decided *only* JBoss versus IBM WebSphere. There is more that exists today, and there's more that is coming.

    About the next comment in your discussion starter:
    If Sun want a share of the java app server market then they should buy JBOSS before Microsoft does.

    Nobody is going to *buy* JBoss. JBoss continues to evolve the way it does today.

    Sun is not going to buy JBoss. There was a clear message from Sun (about not buying JBoss) when Sun's JCP elected Hani (who hates JBoss) as the chief. :-) Did you read all those messages? Hope you did.

    Microsoft is not going to buy JBoss. In Microsoft's eyes, JBoss has a lot more to do.

    JBoss continues to evolve the way it does today.

    Pat, you are wrong in your posting. Ok, completely wrong.
  11. Search the job websites for JBOSS then search for Sun JES. Face the facts. The market has already decided. It's JBOSS Vs WebSphere. If Sun want a share of the java app server market then they should buy JBOSS before Microsoft does.

    Wow! My last 3 projects I never used either of the above mentioned 2 (neither Websphere nor JBoss). Tomcat/Jetty+spring+hibernate is very viable 3rd way, The EJB containers are being disrupted, I wonder what the scenery will be like in the next 5 years. From my understanding E*trade did it with just Tomcat.
  12. false dilema[ Go to top ]

    Search the job websites for JBOSS then search for Sun JES. Face the facts. The market has already decided. It's JBOSS Vs WebSphere. If Sun want a share of the java app server market then they should buy JBOSS before Microsoft does.

    you only see the two horns, not the many choices offered by going between the horns and selecting one of the other great (or soon to be) alternatives.

    what about geronimo? sun's app server is not a volkswagon bus, and definitely deserves some attention.

    Have the critics here even bothered to look at what JES provides? The remote management, clustering, and performance benefits of bundling with JES and Solaris make this a FREE no-brainer.
  13. Java open source development efforts have consolidated around Jboss/Eclipse.

    Because this isn't the case. There is significant use of NetBeans and other IDEs. In fact, the latest NetBeans includes good JBoss integration.
  14. Java open source development efforts have consolidated around Jboss/Eclipse.

    Is JBoss IDE eclipse plugin for JBoss4 ready/stable?
    Why would one switch?

    Try to use JBoss IDE and you'll find the answer. ;-)
  15. The initial choice for "free software" is made for price. To quote Jonathan Schwartz, JavaOne 2005, again: "The good thing of free and open source is that it is free" (as in free lunch). So the actual choice between various free software offerings will be driven by much the same decision factors as between "commercial" software: Capabilities, brand, marketing. Which is essentially what bought Eclipse (via IBM) and Apache their market share. Yet make no mistake: Sun still sure is a heavyweight brand in computer technology.
  16. Using a lightweight framework like Spring, you only need a good web server (I prefer Resin over Tomcat), some web framework (Struts, WebWork, ...) and an ORM tool like Hibernate and you're set. We've been successfully executing enterprise java projects using the mentioned strategies for several years now !!

    A lean mean Java fighting machine, that's all you need :o)

    -Stephan
  17. Using a lightweight framework like Spring, you only need a good web server (I prefer Resin over Tomcat), some web framework (Struts, WebWork, ...) and an ORM tool like Hibernate and you're set. A lean mean Java fighting machine, that's all you need

    Do you mean the C# versions of each of those?

    To say any one patern/framework is great Java is silly if it's also avialabe in C#.

    back to topic, I think Shale, iBatis and Groovy is a good combo.

    .V
  18. I was referring to the statement : "it's JBoss Vs WebSphere".

    Many of the enterprise Java projects out there can be executed with a good performing web server based on the mentioned lighweight Java frameworks !
  19. where is the download URL ?[ Go to top ]

    Sweet ! I can't wait to get started.
  20. I know many think Sun's tools aren't very good. I disagree. Creator, in particular, is very impressive in my opinion.

    Mike
  21. Creator is not impressive[ Go to top ]

    With creator you can create only NumberGuess-quality prototype programs. I don't see any evidence of impression.
    JSC's JSF WYSIWYG editor is like "what you see is far from what you want".
  22. Should I change?[ Go to top ]

    I am using Eclipse/MyEclipse IDE?

    Does somebody think that I should give Sun Java Creator or Enterprise a try?

    What about a comparison between those two?
    + UML
    + Web (JSP, JSF, Struts...)
    + Database integration & Design (+ Hibernate, JDO)
    + Swing builder for desktop applications?

    Thanks
  23. Should I change?[ Go to top ]

    The decision can be made only by yourself after you try it out... That said, I've been at both sides, and found the Sun side of the product line is much better and now cheaper than the IBM side. I think just the J2EE(Web/EJB) and Swing support of the Java Enterprise Studio (NetBeans) is worth the time trying out.

    Cheers,
    Qingtian
  24. While Java Studio Creator is based on NetBeans platform, Creator is not pure extension (or superset) of NetBeans IDE.

    Now when Creator is free, are there plans for better Cretator-NetBeans IDE intergration/interoperability? For instance to make Creator a NebBeans modul.

    Nebojsa
  25. Good move Sun![ Go to top ]

    For those who are criticizing Studio Creator, you probably haven't checked out version 2 which is in early access:

    http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator/ea/jsc2/index.html
    It is a major improvement over version 1, much more feature rich.

    The complete list of software is very impressive:
    http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/what_you_get.jsp
    http://www.sun.com/aboutsun/media/presskits/nov30/ConCall_preso.pdf

    I don't really care what the usual Eclipse-is-the-only-IDE and Sun-bashing crowd has to say, open sourcing virtually all of your software is a pretty bold move.

    Sun has really been developing some impressive tech. lately ZFS, DTrace, Containers, LAE, Niagara, NetBeans 5 (with matisse!) etc. etc.

    Can't wait to see ROCK demolish IBM's POWER in a few years.

    *ducks and heads for cover as Eclipse lynch mob arrives ;)*
  26. Can Studio creator create or manage css layouts? Not simple colors and fonts, but real complex layouts?
    Eclipse WYSIWYG plugins are not better (maybe even worse).
    JSC and Eclipse's various WYSIWYG's are only for funny amauter-looking applications with Duke's logo.

    For my JSF development I integrating components in Dreamweaver8, but if there were a good java alternative...
  27. A good move[ Go to top ]

    I think Sun JEE products deserve a try. I think Sun Application Server its a good product, a fair competitor for JBoss.

    It also could be a good thing for consulting companies specially now with all this JBoss name/legal issues.

    Good+
  28. Learn from this free FLASH demo.[ Go to top ]

    Learn more about Sun's GlassFish application server - using a FLASH demo at the following URL:
    http://weblogs.java.net/blog/binod/archive/foss-in-2005-GlassFish-EJB3Persistence-NetBeans-Demo.swf

    Even before you open the FLASH demo page, do NOT be turned off immediately by seeing an Indian name "Binod". First visit, then make judgements. His efforts are commendable.
    I agree, the FLASH demo is blurry. But, learn from what Binod has done.

    Binod has used "Wink" again to create this demo. Did you guys even try to create similar on your own? If you never did, then visit the above demo by Binod and read more about Sun's latest technologies (open source or otherwise). Yeah.

    Tendency in Americans to turn away from a thing that has an Indian name must die soon. We have to grow up.
  29. Flash Demo[ Go to top ]

    Tendency in Americans to turn away from a thing that has an Indian name must die soon. We have to grow up.

    Slow down pal! You are turning the discussion in an entirely different direction. I don't want to ask for the evidence and get into why your assertion might not be true and all. Let's just stick to the point. Indians are doing very well here and market clearly shows that, no one needs any acknowledgement from any one.

    The demo is impressive.

    C
    http://chintanrajyaguru.com
  30. Alert ! Racist Indians again ![ Go to top ]

    Tendency in Americans to turn away from a thing that has an Indian name must die soon. We have to grow up.

    You have to grow up for sure Sujan.
    You hijacked Ruby discussion with your racist comments.
    Now you doing it again.

    Stop this crap. I have many indian friends. Most of them are programmers.
    And i like them both as people and as programmers.
    But you paranoid accusations are not making any good service to indians.
  31. Wrong interpretation?[ Go to top ]

    Tendency in Americans to turn away from a thing that has an Indian name must die soon. We have to grow up.
    You have to grow up for sure Sujan.You hijacked Ruby discussion with your racist comments.Now you doing it again.Stop this crap. I have many indian friends. Most of them are programmers.And i like them both as people and as programmers.But you paranoid accusations are not making any good service to indians.

    Maybe I am missing something here, but I guess the guy mentioned "Indian names" as in "American Indian names" as in "Apache", not people of Indian origin.

    It might be worthwhile to just read the post fully before jumping to conclusions.
  32. Wrong interpretation?[ Go to top ]

    Maybe I am missing something here, but I guess the guy mentioned "Indian names" as in "American Indian names" as in "Apache", not people of Indian origin.

    Yeah right. :))
  33. Learn from this free FLASH demo.[ Go to top ]

    I guess it is better to watch what you are posting. This is a technology site.
  34. Re: Learn from this free Flash Demo[ Go to top ]

    Dude, you need to relax a bit. I am an Indian and I cringe when people like you make this into a Indian/Non-indian discussion instead of sticking to the technology discussion at hand. You definitely need to get off that race bandwagon and grow up. People like you spoil it for the rest of us.
  35. Not Wink[ Go to top ]

    Binod has used "Wink" again to create this demo.

    The quality is just fine, you just need to embed to SWF in an HTML file to tell the client about the size of the flash demo. (height and width)
    I'm sure Wink generates such an HTML file, you just need to use it though ...
  36. Too late?[ Go to top ]

    I had the misfortune of trying to implement its identity management and portal solution in the JES stack. Of course like a fool our client had paid quite a bunch for the crap they had produced which of course now is offered free as this news article suggests. It was quite a nightmare. The product suite is good enough for people who are learning J2EE stuff and is good as a learning environment on a desktop :-) for newbies, but having it as a production solution is a major pain in the wrong place.

    Factor in the atrocious and confusing tech support from Sun then you have quite a challenge on your hand. We had our architecture validated and ratified by Sun before we started implementation but when things started to go wrong, Sun started complaining about the wrong architecture design. Talk about flip-flopping. Sun has a long way to go in terms of products. Its too late for them to catch up and they simply have the wrong set of people designing their products.
  37. Too late?[ Go to top ]

    Of course like a fool our client had paid quite a bunch for the crap they had produced which of course now is offered free ...

    How much do we need pay not to use iPlanet? Where is the community?
    url? They have no market presence.

    And Nigara chip mentioned before? I can't belived Sun BoD pays for slow proporatery thing like this. You can get an IBM laptop at 3.2 ghz that will out perform a Niagara server doing J2EE. Sell that to Fujitsu.

    Sun has Galaxy, that works and sells (and does not need a sales force, is that problem?)
    Sun has client side Swing, that will do battle agains WinFX.
    Netbeans is just fine, it's just an editor for god's sake, IDE wars?
    And I think they should give JRE for free but charge for SDK Java 6, just like MS.
    That is a fortune, millions of java developers would love to pay for javac (but not users).

    Now how to get rid of all that middle mamagment and pretend sales force at Sun so enginers can execute executivee's plans. Secretaries have more power there than developers.

    So glaxy, linux/pgSQL, plus rich client (web start) + don't offer consutling, let us promote it = $un future.

    .V
  38. Too late?[ Go to top ]

    And Nigara chip mentioned before? I can't belived Sun BoD pays for slow proporatery thing like this. You can get an IBM laptop at 3.2 ghz that will out perform a Niagara server doing J2EE. Sell that to Fujitsu.

    Texas Instruments makes the Nigara. Fujitsu is making APL and the Rock Chips.
  39. Too late?[ Go to top ]

    And Nigara chip mentioned before? I can't belived Sun BoD pays for slow proporatery thing like this. You can get an IBM laptop at 3.2 ghz that will out perform a Niagara server doing J2EE.
    i would not talk that big. i would say you are right if you are talking about playing a FPS game. Niagara will posibly trash it's counterparts in "server" applicatios. Most server applications ar integer calculation-I/O bound. And Threading is the key. Please troll somewhere else.
  40. Too Late[ Go to top ]

    First Start giving away Ref. implementation free
    Did not work
    Then give away free with Solaris
    Did not work
    Then
    Give away all software free and on top of it
    No Services business
    Have bad Tech support
    Sell X86 machines

    And then support 40,000 employees. Does anyone see a business model here. First of all Sun is trying to make a failed commercial product succesful by making it open source. Lets assume it becomes succesful, will Sun continue to give it away free. Will if they do they cannot survive. The need to have some solid revenue source. I would rather support Apache product becasue I know it will always stay open. Or even support any product by IBM (I am not IBM employee or share holder) because I know they have money from services.
  41. Re: Too Late[ Go to top ]

    First Start giving away Ref. implementation free
    Did not work
    Then give away free with Solaris
    Did not work

    What did not work? Turn the entire company around instantaneously?

    Releasing the app server supposed to take BEA and IBM and wipe them off the face of the earth? Releasing OpenSolaris supposed to make all the shops on the planet dump their current investments and infrastructure and load OpenSolaris?

    Does it even occur to you that what they may well be planning is something long term? Something farther reaching than a 1-2 year plan?

    Why release the app server for free? Because it encourages development on J2EE. It lets someone to google "J2EE", see "sun.com", click on it and voila! There's an app server to develop on, and even deploy on. That makes it easy for folks to try J2EE. When folks try it, some might even like J2EE. If they like J2EE they might even like SJAS.

    It is in Suns direct interest to promote and accelerate adoption of J2EE in the market place, whether they inevitably get the direct business in the end (i.e. selling a SJAS license/support contract) or not. If someone goes to Suns site, downloads SJAS, writes an app, and then deploys it on BEA, Sun still wins.

    It makes the platform more accepted, makes more people knowledgable on the platform, and expands the overall Java and JEE market. That's good for Sun.

    Same with OpenSolaris. Sun basically had to choose to open it up, or abandon it completely for Linux. It's quite difficult to compete against free software for commodity services, particulary on commodity hardware. I think everyone recognizes how Linux/x86 was destroying Suns low end market. So, they've not only joined them by developing a kick ass commodity hardware, they've up'd the ante by freeing Solaris. Now the commercial market has a very viable alternative to Linux. FreeBSD was simply never in that hunt and has never had a large commercial entity backing it.

    For those who want the percieved stability of a commercially developed and maintained OS, on commodity hardware, at a commodity prices (i.e. free or pay for service), Solaris offers that.

    Now Sun can compete directly with Red Hat and IBM in that same space, whereas before it was shut out with pure SPARC/Solairs platform.

    See, that's the key. Sun is on a level playing field in that space now. Before it was getting zero business, now it's getting some of the business. It doesn't need to be the dominant player, but it needs to be able to play. So, now they can play and fight apples to apples. You can't easily compare a low end Sun SPARC server to a Dell Intel server, but you can with their Opteron line. Apples to apples, bang for buck. Suns machines are leaders there now, even for customers that run Windows or Linux on them.

    ThenGive away all software free and on top of it
    No Services business
    Have bad Tech support
    Sell X86 machines
    And then support 40,000 employees.
    Does anyone see a business model here.

    Sun has a huge Services business, just not the size of IBM. I have no experience with their tech support, but it doesn't sound any worse than any other huge organizations tech support. I'm rarely happy with anyones support.

    Obviously if Sun has a miserable services business, and they plan on competing with a services business (which they are), then they're going to have to improve that services business in order to attract business.
    First of all Sun is trying to make a failed commercial product succesful by making it open source. Lets assume it becomes succesful, will Sun continue to give it away free. Will if they do they cannot survive. The need to have some solid revenue source. I would rather support Apache product becasue I know it will always stay open. Or even support any product by IBM (I am not IBM employee or share holder) because I know they have money from services.

    Sun has no choice but to leave it open. They CAN NOT take anything they've released under CDDL "back" from the community. They can withdraw from the community and support their own fork, but they can't pull back the actual software. Just like IBM can sell their own version of Apache, without making Apache any less "open".

    Sun DOES have solid revenue sources from hardware, software, and services. They ARE profitable. Insanely profitable? Nope, but they're still turning the company around.

    They are taking all of the doors that they can affect that prevent them from getting a crack at business and yanking it off their hinges.

    People use JBoss because it's free and "good enough". People use Apache because it is free and "good enough". People PAY OTHERS to support JBoss and Apache. Is Suns webserver any better than Apaches? I don't know. Most in the community don't know. Why? Because it is has been difficult to evaluate, much less use, hard to compete with Free. Well, that's no longer an excuse. Now it can be evaluated on more even basis with Apache. Apple to Apples.

    By releasing all of their Software, the software can be marketed to CIOs and IT managers from both directions -- the top by Suns sales force, and from the bottom by those who just may download the software, try it out and, perhaps, even like it.

    Again, expanding the markets in which Sun can compete. More market, more opportunity. They certainly need to monetize that market, and that's the next phase, but with new hardware and wider exposure to their software, they are well positioned to leverage these new opportunities.

    But it's not going to happen overnight. They're still laying all of the ground work. Since pretty much their entire stack is free now, it's almost all in place. Next is Niagra and the reduced power initiatives, then save for opaque internal changes that we can't see, they'll have everything in place and able to leverage and take advantage of it.

    Will it work? Dunno. Nobody has ever done this before. We'll just have to wait and see.
  42. Re: Too Late[ Go to top ]

    Well I certainly did not intend to open this large a can of worms with what I said. I also certainly did not want to understand or talk about whether Sun is profitable as a company or what would be its long term or short term plans. The JES stack starts with the basic J2EE app server and the web server which provide the backbone for any application. With the evolution of Netdynamics, NES, iPlanet, SunOne, yada yada, yada, Sun really took quite long at the pitstops whereas vendors like BEA, Oracle and IBM took long strides. Even IBM got its act together on the app server starting with Websphere 4.0. By the time Sun got its act together on the app server side, JBoss had already appeared and by the time they made it free most of the vendors had established themselves with good acceptable solutions in the app server market, commercial and opensource. It now remains to be seen whether the IT world says what the heck and starts trying out Sun JES :-).
    Coming to the next layer of the product stack which is the identity management and the portal solution from Sun. The very fact that Sun took so long to get their act together on the app server, they never could do the basics right even on these next layer of products. Frankly on the portal area, while all other vendors had firmly established themselves with albeit proprietary but somewhat reliable portal solutions, Sun is still grappling with how to do the basics right on the portal side.
    My whole point is not whether Sun will stay in business for the next 5-10 years, I am sure it will because of Java and J2EE, but whether all this done is too little too late. After all when a commercial product goes opensource, I personally feel that the vendor thinks that thats the best its own developers can produce. Let it now be bettered and improved by the community. Making it popular comes next and I am sure Sun will concentrate on its services more to ride piggyback if at all the JES stack becomes popular. Lastly we can spare a thought for all those who paid top $ to buy the JES/SunOne stack.
  43. Re: Too Late[ Go to top ]

    What did not work? Turn the entire company around instantaneously?Releasing the app server supposed to take BEA and IBM and wipe them off the face of the earth? Does it even occur to you that what they may well be planning is something long term? Something farther reaching than a 1-2 year plan?

    Sun released Application Server (Platform edition) free way back in 2002. Today we are almost in 2006. 4 years we still do not see any uptake (forget 1-2 year plan)
    Why release the app server for free? Because it encourages development on J2EE.
    There are many free J2EE based app servers in the market and Sun is better of mending its finances rather than worrying about J2EE adoption. And clearly there is no innovation from Sun in the recent years in this space. There is more innovation in open source. Talk Spring, Hibernate, AOP etc. You dont find Sun anywhere.
    I think everyone recognizes how Linux/x86 was destroying Suns low end market. So, they've not only joined them by developing a kick ass commodity hardware, they've up'd the ante by freeing Solaris. Now the commercial market has a very viable alternative to Linux. FreeBSD was simply never in that hunt and has never had a large commercial entity backing it.For those who want the percieved stability of a commercially developed and maintained OS, on commodity hardware, at a commodity prices (i.e. free or pay for service), Solaris offers that.Now Sun can compete directly with Red Hat and IBM in that same space, whereas before it was shut out with pure SPARC/Solairs platform.See, that's the key. Sun is on a level playing field in that space now. Before it was getting zero business, now it's getting some of the business. It doesn't need to be the dominant player, but it needs to be able to play. So, now they can play and fight apples to apples. You can't easily compare a low end Sun SPARC server to a Dell Intel server, but you can with their Opteron line. Apples to apples, bang for buck. Suns machines are leaders there now, even for customers that run Windows or Linux on them.
    This discussion was not about OS and lets not get there.
    Sun has a huge Services business, just not the size of IBM.
    Do you know how much profit is it generating. Surely not even one tenth of cost of producing free software.
    Obviously if Sun has a miserable services business, and they plan on competing with a services business (which they are), then they're going to have to improve that services business in order to attract business.
    If you ever listened to Scott on any shareholder meeting, you will listen loud and clear that Sun is not services company and does not want to be one.
    Sun DOES have solid revenue sources from hardware, software, and services. They ARE profitable. Insanely profitable? Nope
    I do not know where you get the information. Sun has not made any profit from 2002 on a yearly basis. The only recent quarter they made measurable profit was because they got money from M$ as part of settlement.
    Will it work? Dunno. Nobody has ever done this before. We'll just have to wait and see.
    This is exactly the point when I have so many free sources how would I benifit from moving to software from a company that we are not sure will survive. With Apache and IBM I do not have those concerns. Remember the biggest costs are switching costs and any IT manager will shudder to moving to something about which no one is sure. Hence the title "Too late". There is no compelling reason to move to Sun stack with all the uncertainities and no clear innovation or wow factor.
  44. Relation to NetBeans?[ Go to top ]

    Shouldn't all of this become either part of NetBeans or an optional add-on to NetBeans?

    There is no value-add to the rebranding, etc, in Java Studio Creator, etc, in an open source context.
  45. Not MORE FUD from Vic.[ Go to top ]

    And Nigara chip mentioned before? I can't belived Sun BoD pays for slow proporatery thing like this. You can get an IBM laptop at 3.2 ghz that will out perform a Niagara server doing J2EE. Sell that to Fujitsu. .V

    Isn't it amazing how Vic. can produce FUD about the performance of a chip when servers using this chip had yet to be released. Even more amazing since he can't even spell the name of the chip correctly!
  46. Niagara.[ Go to top ]

    FUD about the performance of a chip when servers using this chip had yet to be released.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/09/niagara_many_cores/
    It runs more than 3 times slower clock speed than 3.2 ghz IBM laptop! The article says Niagara is at 1ghz.

    As per this page:
    http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/cache/280124-0-0-0-121.html?ERL=true
    It's even slower than current Sun propriatoery chips becuase of hyper-threading presumably.
    And on TPC.org, current Sun propriatory chips are slower than old 64-x86 chip based servers runing concurent transactions. Therfore, it's slower than Galaxy.
    We have an idea that chip hyperthreading could slow down Java, so on x86 we turn that feature of.

    Why would Sun waste resources, that is for the board of directors to decide. Stop devleoping propriatory chips allready.

    But please educate me, send me some relative performance that shows up good against Opteron based Glaxaxy, which is also cheaper AFAIK.

    .V

    ps: is it not the policy of TSS to require full real names mr M?
  47. Niagara.[ Go to top ]

    Quoting The Register and HP on anything to do with Sun is perhaps not the most convincing way to make a case.
  48. Niagara.[ Go to top ]

    T1 (T1000 & T2000) benchmarks:
    http://www.sun.com/servers/coolthreads/t1000/benchmarks.jsp

    Intel's XEON hyperthreading has its issues. We have learned from those issues in the creation of the T1. I have yet to see disabling a thread on the T1 improve performance. You won't have the same problem as you did on Xeon.

    Yes, *each core* of the 8 cores runs at 1.2 Ghz. Those cores are admittedly simpler than other chips, but that is by design. Each core supports 4 threads. What is probably of interest to the folks on this site is that RSA encryption support is built in to the T1. The T1 will do well with https.

    The T1 is designed to move data. Think web server & application server. Oracle says they are also getting good numbers. If you want a number cruncher (floating point), you are correct that Opteron is a good choice.

    I have put up some of my initial thoughts on my blog:
    http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jclingan?entry=what_do_you_think_of

    I'll work on a developer-centric entry when I get the cycles. In the meantime, there are quite of few bloggers posting about the T1 at http://blogs.sun.com. One interesting entry is Youfei's performance tests with MySQL:
    http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/yufei#database_scaling_on_ultrasparc_t1

    Hope this helps.

    John Clingan
    Sun Microsystems
  49. Niagara.[ Go to top ]

    But John, http://www.spec.org/jbb2005/results/jbb2005.html
    does not list you at all, what you press release says.
    It does list Sun Galaxy very nicely.

    My favorite test it TPC.org (c).
    And that is dominated by DL 585 (Optreon based, it's there 5 times and it has things we want like HW cached SAS drives for faster IO). Why not put up a MySQL on it an show us on tpc.org?

    And... Resin does not run on Niagara, AFAIK, but Resin does run on Sun Galaxy, so... propratery is a good word.
    Anyway, a waste of money if you ask me to try to shove down a slower chip, when Sun could focus and make money on HW (Galaxy) and SW (Java JDK subscription).
    Sun made noize that they would use lots of Operton on high end and less Sparc and.... now they fil flop again, for the 2nd time. Each little manager is protecting his budget.

    .V
  50. Niagara.[ Go to top ]

    Here's Sun's take on the outdated TPC-C:
    http://www.sun.com/executives/realitycheck/reality-052703.html.
     You may not agree with it, but that's Sun's take. The SPECjbb2005 numbers are here: http://www.sun.com/servers/coolthreads/t1000/benchmarks.jsp#c, which shows 51,540 BOPS. Not bad for one chip using less power and less floorspace than other servers it surpasses. As for why the benchmark is not on the SPEC site, you got me that one. I'll have to go find out when it will be posted.

    Proprietary is *not* a good word. SPARC is an open specification defined by SPARC International (http://www.sparcinternational.com). If Resin runs on SPARC, the same binary runs on Niagara, UltraSPARC and Fujitsu's SPARC64. AFAIK, Resin requires only a JDK, therefore runs on SPARC and therefore Niagara. Please correct me if I am wrong on only requiring the JDK as I'm not a Resin user. Today's anouncement stressed binary compatibility (existing applications run as-is).

    Niagara is not a "slower chip". For it's target market (data centers filled to the max with 1U and 2U web/app servers), it's at the top. Put it in a compute grid and you are most likely wasting space and power, albeit less space and power :) If you listen to the rather long (IMHO) announcment we had today, we got performance kudos from eBay, Oracle, SunGard and EDS. None of the applications they ran were tweaked at all.

    Sun never announced it would use less SPARC in the high-end of it's product line. We are committed to both SPARC and Opteron throughout the product line.

    To summarize, we think the industry is better off moving from a "one general-purpose chip solves all problems" approach to a "semi-general purpose chip being designed for classes of applications". UltraSPARC IV+ for the high end SMP, Niagara for web facing applications, and Opteron for number crunching. It's more of a venn diagram than a clear-cut separation, but hopefully it makes the point.

    My guess is that we should take this offline as this thread is a bit off topic (unless others find it interesting).

    Tom, thanks for the comments, and I hope this helps.

    John Clingan
    Sun Microsystems
  51. Niagara.[ Go to top ]

    As a followup on the performance front, check out Rich McDougall's blog (http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/rmc#welcome_to_the_cmt_era), who has a summary of blog entries covering Niagara from performance in general to crypto-performance. There are also blogs covering SPECjappserver and how the Niagara chip is outperforming some 4-way servers.

    John Clingan
    Sun Microsystems
  52. Too late?[ Go to top ]

    I think you could have used the name of any vendor in your post, it would have been a valid comment.

    I have never gotten good support from any application server vendor (with respect to architecture and development). If you don't have people who are knowledgeable in the products you are using onsight, and you are building a complex application then you are probably screwed.
  53. Too late?[ Go to top ]

    I think you could have used the name of any vendor in your post, it would have been a valid comment. I have never gotten good support from any application server vendor (with respect to architecture and development).

    I have had reasonably much better service in terms of support when it came to BEA. Even ATG did a better job. The issue specially is how and what they support. Sun has been trying to sell the JES stack specially the portal and identity solution. While support does not necessarily mean providing bug fixes, patches, etc. It also includes providing the knowledge insight about the product such that developers can do their work with ease. The developers on my team always had been hitting their heads on their desks because of the poor knowledge the Sun support guys had about their own product.
  54. Just downloaded and tried Java Studio Creator 2 EA2.

    Run:
    - Sun Java Application Server
    - PointBase
    - Creator

    Started a new project with the sample provided "Jump Start Cycles'. Watched the amt of RAM used (includ. OS) 700++MB. I only had 512MB physical. Ran the project and it took more than 4 minutes to deploy and launch (probably due to paging).

    Sun has provided an integrated solution, but it does not seem feasible to do development (work only within pc/laptop) with crawling speed caused by intensive memory used.

    Anyone faced the same problem?

    Stan
  55. Just downloaded and tried Java Studio Creator 2 EA2.Run:- Sun Java Application Server- PointBase- CreatorStarted a new project with the sample provided "Jump Start Cycles'. Watched the amt of RAM used (includ. OS) 700++MB. I only had 512MB physical. Ran the project and it took more than 4 minutes to deploy and launch (probably due to paging).Sun has provided an integrated solution, but it does not seem feasible to do development (work only within pc/laptop) with crawling speed caused by intensive memory used.Anyone faced the same problem?Stan

    Ahh, ever thought of getting more memory?

    It's a well known fact that most of the 'heavyweight' Java IDE's (that have IDE, Database and AppServer) are memory hogs. You can probably buy another 512 meg of ram and be fine.

    If you're running on swap space, obviously its going to be dog slow.

    Don't be a dumass and try to run the IDE on an underpowered machine. It will cost you FAR more money in wasted time than just buying the memory outright (developer-time==EXPENSIVE, memory==CHEAP)
  56. Re: 512MB Ram[ Go to top ]

    I only had 512MB physical. Ran the project and it took more than 4 minutes to deploy and launch (probably due to paging) ... Anyone faced the same problem?

    Stan - buy more RAM.

    I sometimes run IDEA, Netbeans 5beta2, tomcat, jboss, and Postgresql (along with copious firefox tabs, outlook, and trillian chat windows) at the same time on my dev laptop (ibm t41p with 2.1 ghz pentium M, a 7200rpm HD, and 1.5 gigs of RAM) with no paging bottleneck whatsoever.

    The problem you describe is by no means isolated to Sun's software stack. Running comparable software from any vendor would cause your ram starved machine to huff and puff.
  57. ok, then close it up again[ Go to top ]

    Based upon what I'm reading the consensus is that Sun should close these products up again and put a $10000 price tag on them.

    How dare they give away products that they've spent millions developing.

    I smell some JBoss style astrotufing going on here.

    This is great news and all you people do is complain.
  58. Last when I checked, the JES stack (atleast the portal server) ran only on Solaris. Along with making it open source, I think it should be ported on windows and/or linux. This will make it more popular.

    /a
    http://apoorv.info
  59. The entire JES "stack" runs on Solaris SPARC, Solaris X86, Windows, Linux and HP-UX ... today. Minus Sun Cluster, which is available for Solaris.

    The system requirements are available here:
    http://www.sun.com/software/javaenterprisesystem/datasheet.xml#15

    John Clingan
    Sun Microsystems
  60. The entire JES "stack" runs on Solaris SPARC, Solaris X86, Windows, Linux and HP-UX ... today. Minus Sun Cluster, which is available for Solaris.The system requirements are available here:http://www.sun.com/software/javaenterprisesystem/datasheet.xml#15John ClinganSun Microsystems

    Hi John,

    From the SUN STUDIO 11 download page, it appears that the Sun Studio for C/C++/FORTRAN is only on SOLARIS/LINUX. I did NOT see a mention for WINDOWS/HP-UX. Pls. correct me if I'm wrong.

    Thank you,

    BR,
    ~A

    ===============================
     Sun[tm] Studio 11
    Please Note: It is important that you read the following documents, which include all of the information you need to download and install the Sun Studio 11 software.

    Download Instructions

    Solaris OS:
    Installation and Setup Guide for Solaris Platforms
    Release Notes for Solaris Platforms

    Linux OS:
    Installation and Setup Guide for Linux Platforms
    Release Notes for Linux Platforms

    ======================================
  61. Anjan, I should have been more explicit. The context I was using was the server software. You are correct in that Studio 11 is not supported on Windows/HP-UX.
  62. hi there,

      Well, since it's open source, it can be ported to windows/linux too using either

    a) if someone wanted to use the frontend of Sun Studio with a backend of either GCC or watcom or borland MINGW

    b) port the backend to windows too.

    BR,
    ~A
  63. Why did Sun separate "Sun Java Studio Creator" and "Java Studio Enterprise 8"?
  64. Java Studio Creator and Java Studio Enterprise 8 are targeted at developers with different skillsets.

    Java Studio Creator is targeted at departmental developers and is primarily a tool to consume services created by other developers.

    Generally speaking, Java Studio Enterprise 8 is targeted for "enterprise developers" who create consumable services.

    Hope This Helps,

    John Clingan
    Sun Microsystems
  65. Dag-nab-it, pasted the wrong link. Apologies. Here is the blog entry that addresses these questions:

    http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jclingan?entry=i_m_a_developer_you

    John Clingan
    Sun Microsystems
  66. Free / OSS JES and Tools[ Go to top ]

    If Sun will open source those products (JES + Tools) *without any limitations*, they will surely be successful just like JDK/JVM and Java today... The details are important here:
    - Are they going to be really Open Source like NetBeans/Solaris/OpenOffice?
    - Can you use them for both development and deployment or are they only for development purpose (if they are not Open Source)?
    - Is the app server useful for production deployment (load balancer, clustered environments, ...)
    - ...

    I cannot find the details sofar. Maybe I'm just too impatient... ;-)

    Cheers,
    Lofi.
  67. Free / OSS JES and Tools[ Go to top ]

    I wrote a blog late last week to address these type of questions. Feel free to ask more.

    http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/jclingan?entry=accelerating_the_software_adoption_clock

    Hope this helps.

    John Clingan
    Sun Microsystems
  68. Sun's move only underlines the confusion Java World is in today...No one cares about Sun's entry into Open Source arena... there are already too many tools and too many players in the arena...

    A recent Java meeting I attended lamented that but for Hibernate, .NET would have overtaken Java already... And heard confusing expressions/questions like 'Beyond Java?','CMP never worked and will be removed from the next EJB', 'Hibernate will replace EJB', 'Don't use Entity Beans'....

    Using Java tools nowadays is like buying clothes for your 1 month baby...

    If Java community doesn't come out ad hoc solutions and don't stop battling within, Microsoft and .NET will have an upper hand sooner than we think!
  69. Too late to make sense out of the mess[ Go to top ]

    You say confusion, I say innovation. If it is stability you want, that is what the JSRs are for. If you want to follow community-innovated frameworks, you are going to deal with a faster pace of change and innovation. I have customers successfully utilizing JSR oriented APIs (including CMP). However, leveraging community innovations (POJO) within the JSRs (EJB3) is a welcome improvement.

    As for Microsoft and .NET, some helpful links for you in support of Java:
    http://weblogs.java.net/blog/hansmuller/archive/2005/10/official_swing.html
    http://www.jroller.com/page/matsh?entry=java_history_was_made_today

    Hope this helps.

    John Clingan
    http://blogs.sun.com/jclingan
    Sun Microsystems
  70. Too late to make sense out of the mess[ Go to top ]

    Sun's move only underlines the confusion Java World is in today...No one cares about Sun's entry into Open Source arena... there are already too many tools and too many players in the arena...A recent Java meeting I attended lamented that but for Hibernate, .NET would have overtaken Java already... And heard confusing expressions/questions like 'Beyond Java?','CMP never worked and will be removed from the next EJB', 'Hibernate will replace EJB', 'Don't use Entity Beans'....Using Java tools nowadays is like buying clothes for your 1 month baby...If Java community doesn't come out ad hoc solutions and don't stop battling within, Microsoft and .NET will have an upper hand sooner than we think!

    Let's see now, what sort of industries use .NET for enterprise applications - airline ? banking ? telecomms ? ANYTHING ? What about sites such as Yahoo, Google and eBay ?

    Anyone who thinks that .NET has all but overtaken Java in the real world have their heads buried in their laptops running Win XP. Wake up and smell the roses.

    For God's sake, Windows has just barely turned 64-bit. Do you seriously believe that it has overtaken Java in the enterprise ?

    Enterprises today are, for the most part, running Java based vertical solutions. The .NET vs Java is done and over with. Microsoft was (and still is) an Enterprise Wannabee. Your airline ticket, paycheck and electricity bill are all processed by systems running Java, not .NET.

    Current challenges in our industry include building Web Services, SOA and integrating main frames with relational databases and COTs applications, end to end. And you cannot do that with 32-bit .NET machines running Windoze. Get real.

    As for the real debate at hand - whether Sun's move is a good one - sure. Sun's competition is against platform vendors such as IBM, HP and Dell. It's greatest asset is one and only one thing - "MINDSHARE". The mindshare of developers like you and me. Because we will evolve into technical advisors and/or decision makers for our respective organizations.

    Complete open source stacks (from the hardware right up to the app server) that can be supported by a single major vendor such as Sun is a very attractive proposition to an enterprise customer.

    In summary, congratulations to Sun for doing what it has done and for grabbing the competition by the horns.

    Raju Karia