Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?

Discussions

News: Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?

  1. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go? (99 messages)

    In a recent article on Artima, Bruce Eckel makes the bold proclamation that the Java enthusiasts have left the building. The article starts with a very through and fair review of Bruce Tate’s recent Beyond Java title. It ends by labeling Ruby a better Perl and in the middle he tackles Python, Rails, and EJB.

    The discussion also touches on the recent public Martin Fowler Rusty Harold debate on simplicity and uses the public response to make an interesting observation.
     
    Aside from Tate, we know the hyper-enthusiasts have moved to Ruby because of the howls of protest at Harold's opinion (although much of this was before his analysis of list). We can identify hyper-enthusiasts because the arguments have a strongly faith-based flavor to them. X is the true way, therefore anything X is best by definition, and all other languages lack X's goodness.


    Though it maybe true that a number of Java luminaries have moved on to different roles and some even use different technologies but is it really all that simple? After all as Brian Goetz has said, "it’s easier to count prominent departures then count new entrants". Have the hyper-enthusiasts really left the building or are we witnessing a healthy turn-over?

    Threaded Messages (99)

  2. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?[ Go to top ]

    Just a different stage of the language lifecycle.

    Every part of a language's lifecycle is important as every part of life is. Java has lost the first flush of youth and is now in early middle-age. It's already had a child or two (Groovy et al) and is looking forward to fulfilling it's responsibilities and a quiet life.
  3. The enthusiasts have moved on[ Go to top ]

    To the framework level...
    The language is mature it does what it does, the discussions are now on framework especiall j2ee framework level.
    Just look at the forums here, full of framework fanboys promoting one framework over the other.
  4. The enthusiasts have moved on[ Go to top ]

    +1
  5. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?[ Go to top ]

    Just a different stage of the language lifecycle.Every part of a language's lifecycle is important as every part of life is. Java has lost the first flush of youth and is now in early middle-age. It's already had a child or two (Groovy et al) and is looking forward to fulfilling it's responsibilities and a quiet life.

    I think Java is still very much a young language. Its use is still increasing (for example, it has only just become the number one language on Sourceforge), the range of applications it is used for is growing - for example, the game-writing industry is starting to realise what it can do, and the language itself is still evolving.

    So I would say it is more like late teenage....
    It's already had a child or two (Groovy et al)

    or perhaps early 20s :)
  6. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?[ Go to top ]

    Just a different stage of the language lifecycle.Every part of a language's lifecycle is important as every part of life is. Java has lost the first flush of youth and is now in early middle-age.

    Exactly, and it is now that it is begining to achieve its potential. Frankly, I'm glad the "hyper-enthusiasts" have moved on. I notice that so many of them tend to be presentation side and client-server style developers - a la VB, Ruby, early Java fanatics, etc. They also tend to lack perspective about technology, tools, where the greatest value lies and the business we are in.

    The less visible and less glamorous world of building the back end - the building blocks of enterprise services - is where the bulk of the value of IT to business is created. It is the stuff that lasts. Portals, fat clients, thin clients, AJAX clients and that ilk come and go. They are the tail, not the dog. Nothing they do has any great value without the presence of those boring and complicated back end data stores and services.

    Java and JEE have just recently matured to the point where they can lead as tools for building these things. COBOL/CICS and C/Tuxedo have lost most if not all their advantages over JEE in terms of enterprise scalability.

    I've yet to meet a hyper-enthusiast about any technology who understands enterprise, mission critical services and platforms. That would be like a teenage romantic understanding what a long term marriage is really like and its rewards.
  7. Hyper-enthusiasts have not moved on.

    They have just become regular enthusiasts of Java and, possibly, hyper-enthusiasts of Ruby. Or Groovy. Or... you name it.

    You declare new trends when you hear them discussed around the coffee machine at your office or mentioned repeatedly on resumes, not when two book authors publish sensationalistic articles (with all due respect to the two Bruces).

    --
    Cedric
  8. Luminaries[ Go to top ]

    Hyper-enthusiasts have not moved on.They have just become regular enthusiasts of Java and, possibly, hyper-enthusiasts of Ruby. Or Groovy. Or... you name it.You declare new trends when you hear them discussed around the coffee machine at your office or mentioned repeatedly on resumes, not when two book authors publish sensationalistic articles (with all due respect to the two Bruces).-- Cedric
    Are the two Bruces supposed to be the "luminaries" who have left ? Which other luminaries are we missing ? I'm still here so Java just can't be dead yet. Some parts of it just smell funny...
  9. I think Java has a lot of great things going for it like Spring, Hibernate and the new workflows. It's Struts that is the achilles heel IMHO.

    Let's all collectively dump struts.
  10. I have seen some articles on tss comparing Java and LAMP, Java and .NET, Java and Ruby ... some of them tending to the ideia of "leave Java".

    Java is not just a OO language, it is a whole platform ... Things like Java Scripting trying to bring to java the choose of the language used.

    I agree that java have its weakless, but it is now getting mature and become more productivity and have been approved by the customers ...

    My question is, why do I need another plataform instead of improve and evolve java platform.
  11. YES
    Absolutly agree
    All this new languages is not really a good thing. What the industry needs is an improved platform not a new one.
  12. All this new languages is not really a good thing. What the industry needs is an improved platform not a new one.
    No -- absolutely disagree. :-)

    As in many other cases, competition between programming languages is absolutely neccessary to
      1) generate fresh, out-of-the-box ideas,
      2) force existing languages to evolve or die,
      3) present the developer with a quiver of options to choose the right tool for the job.

    We need those new, experimental languages. But why would we need to use them for developing our main product line until they become more mature? It is not mandatory or even neccessary for a developer to play with Ruby (but it will certainly not be to his disadvantage), but it is neccessary and even mandatory for the developers of the Java Platform (at Sun) to consider the ideas and techniques at the core of this language for improving their own brainchild.

    Sun was very quick to implement long sought-after features like Generics and Annotations after C# appeared to be a dangerous contender to Java. New programming languages put some pressure on the established ones to advance -- this is definitely a Good Thing.

    Cheers, Lars :-)
  13. Learning is a good thing[ Go to top ]

    I think the luminaries have 'sort of' left, because they were the first to adopt to Java. Now they have 10 years of experience using the language, and they have not much new to learn. Ruby provides them with a new exciting environment to learn again. That is why they love it so much: it is new.

    And yes, Ruby may also be the Next Best Thing (tm) since Sliced Bread (tm), but I haven't taken the plunge, and don't foresee doing so in the near future. I do have the pickaxe lying next to my Mac, just to get a taste of the why and how.
  14. Learning is a good thing[ Go to top ]

    I think the luminaries have 'sort of' left, because they were the first to adopt to Java. Now they have 10 years of experience using the language, and they have not much new to learn. Ruby provides them with a new exciting environment to learn again.

    I agree but I also think there is a dark side to this. When Java first became popular, we had a lot of early adopters singing it's praises. However, a lot of the most horrible crap Java code was written at that time. It takes a few years for the 'collective mind' of developers to work out the best way to do things in a new language (and sometimes the creators are the worst developers e.g. JDK 1.1)

    To me Java has finally hit it stride. I see less and less idiotic code. Why leave the beach when the sun is coming out?
  15. Redefining "Luminary"[ Go to top ]

    Maybe what it means to be a Java luminary is changing.

    What makes a bigger luminary: Publishing lots of books or making lots of quality contributions to useful, production quality OSS projects?
  16. Redefining "Luminary"[ Go to top ]

    Well, i ought to say that rod johnson qualifies as a luminary. Haven't you read "J2EE Design and Development"? that book has the seed of what is now Spring. And spring is "The framework". One framework to rule them all. I don't know Bruce's work but Rod's work is worth a luminary
  17. I am sorry to say that but we still have some fans.
    They are not fans of Java itself but they are now fans of Spring or any other framework that is the best in the world (I don't have anything against Spring...;-).
    Usually, the less they know the stronger they believe.
    No technology is better than another. It is a question of advantages and disadvantages, and adaptation to a situation.
  18. No technology is better than another. It is a question of advantages and disadvantages, and adaptation to a situation.

    At the risk of sounding like an enthusiast, I actually disagree somewhat with this statement. Some technologies _are_ better than others. Some technologies enhance your agility while others decrease it. EJB 3 is a response to the perception that EJB 2 and previous were not as good as they could be. Surely it is 'better' than what came before? Another example is Java 1.4 and now 1.5. I have no problem saying that 1.5 is better than 1.4, it's pretty obvious.

    The more controversial case is Spring, the example you used. I think it's more helpful to focus on the technology that Spring promotes, IoC / DI. It's obvious to me that DI is a much better approach to solving all sorts of problems that the Singleton and Factory patterns also solve. It reduces my dependencies, making my code more agile in that it can be used in more places with fewer restrictions. I can run things outside a container or in, my choice. I can unit test with more of the same code that's running in production.

    So, some technologies _are_ better than others, or better than they were before. Those are the ones that enhance your freedom of choice, that enable your code to better adapt to different situations. The 'know nothing' technological relativism approach seems less helpful to me than focusing on outcomes, and some technologies just obviously have better outcomes than others in terms of code maintenance and reuse.

    An implication of this is that there is a chance for Ruby or some other technology to also be better than Java. I have no problem with this, in fact I welcome it, because it means that they're better suited to solving more of my problems. But I'm not going to make that judgement based on hype, self-promoting books, or TSS articles. I've looked at Ruby and judged it not ready for prime time for the sorts of enterprise problems I have. Someday it might be, and so I'll learn it just like I learned Java when it was released (and solved none of the enterprise problems I had then).

    Java had obvious promise then, Ruby has obvious promise now. But promises don't pay my rent. I didn't start paying the rent with Java until 1998 or so, 3 years after I wrote my first applet. ;) If Ruby is a more effective way to pay the rent in 2008, bring it on!

    James
  19. I will tell you what[ Go to top ]

    Until 1998, I was dreaming to build OO applications in C++, but instead I was working with FoxPro since my boss just loved it (actually how speedy and productive I was with it). We used Netware 3.x, MS-DOS and a bulletproof FoxPro business application (an ERP like). I can tell you our really small business where doing more than 1 million dolar/month and that where all we need from IT, beside classic Lotus 123, WordPerfect and Pc-Anywhere.

    Then our small company was sold to a big global company. They were using SAP...All my potential web focused projects simply died before even be considered.

    Then I quit that job to work with Java, J2EE, etc. I will tell you, I never could imagine how much money can be waste without any real return. EJB, UML, RUP, things like that...

    I am going hard with Jython an JRuby, beside other things. I hope to be able pay my rental next years with it, but also to be happy with my job, a thing I have been unable to do working within messy Java worldwide "enterprise" projects.
  20. I will tell you what[ Go to top ]

    Until 1998, I was dreaming to build OO applications in C++, but instead I was working with FoxPro since my boss just loved it (actually how speedy and productive I was with it). We used Netware 3.x, MS-DOS and a bulletproof FoxPro business application (an ERP like). I can tell you our really small business where doing more than 1 million dolar/month and that where all we need from IT, beside classic Lotus 123, WordPerfect and Pc-Anywhere. Then our small company was sold to a big global company. They were using SAP...All my potential web focused projects simply died before even be considered.Then I quit that job to work with Java, J2EE, etc. I will tell you, I never could imagine how much money can be waste without any real return. EJB, UML, RUP, things like that...I am going hard with Jython an JRuby, beside other things. I hope to be able pay my rental next years with it, but also to be happy with my job, a thing I have been unable to do working within messy Java worldwide "enterprise" projects.

    LOL, I was working with navision financials back in 98. It was so easy to work with. I always excpected Java to reach that level. I am not saying that I want to work with properiaty software again. The open feeling that I still get from Java beats the frustration. Other properiaty technology will probably not take over Java's position. Danger for Java/Sun will come from open technology.
  21. I will tell you what[ Go to top ]

    Until 1998, I was dreaming to build OO applications in C++, but instead I was working with FoxPro since my boss just loved it (actually how speedy and productive I was with it). We used Netware 3.x, MS-DOS and a bulletproof FoxPro business application (an ERP like). I can tell you our really small business where doing more than 1 million dolar/month and that where all we need from IT, beside classic Lotus 123, WordPerfect and Pc-Anywhere. Then our small company was sold to a big global company. They were using SAP...All my potential web focused projects simply died before even be considered.Then I quit that job to work with Java, J2EE, etc. I will tell you, I never could imagine how much money can be waste without any real return. EJB, UML, RUP, things like that...I am going hard with Jython an JRuby, beside other things. I hope to be able pay my rental next years with it, but also to be happy with my job, a thing I have been unable to do working within messy Java worldwide "enterprise" projects.

    Big companies do not necessarily work like small companies :). I work for a company that did most of its business with Excel, Excel Macros, little VB scripts, MS Access Db, to generate web pages. It worked for its time but the shoestring setup was too fragile, could not scale, was difficult to use, etc. etc. It just could not support the business anymore.

    At the time we chose to replace the system with Java. .NET was nothing but a rumour but we knew enough at the time that going with VB was going to be risky - and we were right about that. We would have faced another rewrite had we taken that path.

    Sure, we used (session/entity) EJBs like just about everybody but not that extensively. It did work quite nicely but we have since ditched this approach for lighterweight alternatives. A lot of the software that was built many years ago is still alive and well with small changes only. During this time we have migrated the software from Java 1.2 to 5 without a hitch and with hardly any work.

    Company is making millions every month from this software. I'd say Java did it for us quite nicely. I can't imagine taking another route as a hind sight. We never paid a cent to big EJB container manufacturers. If anything else, we saved a lot of money with open source. Java can be a real winner!

    We are using .NET too. A lot of the web front ends are done with it. Most of our web coders know VB, so it only made sense to do it that way (or it felt like that at the time). We integrate the Java and .NET systems without too much pain with messaging systems and such so there are no real issues there.

    If we have wasted money anywhere, it would be the .NET side of things. The learning curve for some of the VB developers was steep and it really took about 18 months to get things running somewhat smoothly. I as a Java developer was far more prepared to deal with it than they were and I found myself explaining things to them all the time. The principles, after all, are exact copies of Java. If you have to explain what an 'object' is, things are not going to be easy.

    We experienced difficult memory leak problems caused by .NET and the inability to profile the .NET software properly is also costing us money almost on weekly basis. The IDEs and tools like source safe are sub standard today, and sometimes piss poor for what they were meant to do. In many areas .NET is just light years behind Java, and there is no way around that fact. And at every turn, you pay, and you pay, and you pay. I don't know for what reason, sometimes. I'd rather pay for Java if I had to.
  22. I will tell you what[ Go to top ]

    The IDEs and tools like source safe are sub standard today, and sometimes piss poor for what they were meant to do. In many areas .NET is just light years behind Java, and there is no way around that fact. And at every turn, you pay, and you pay, and you pay. I don't know for what reason, sometimes. I'd rather pay for Java if I had to.
    Being both a Java and .Net (and VB Classic) developer - +1

    I can't see how someone who has used Eclipse/Netbeans/IntelliJ/.. can think VS.Net is better. I have some C#/ASP.Net code I need to refactor. I am so afraid to touch it.
  23. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?[ Go to top ]

    I have been enthusiast about Java since almost 10 years now and I have extensive scripting experience with Python, Php and Perl. I still am extremely enthusiast about Java but the simple reason that the community is so innovative and professional at the same time. Occasionally I still learn new ways of using the Java language itself, but what excites me most is that its strong foundation allows me to deliver maintainable applications without surprises while still being able to investigate new technologies like AOP.
  24. Sorry to mention but last time (about 3 years ago!) when "hyper-enthusiasts" claimed EJB2 sucks and Hibernate or similar lightweight POJO-based persistance solutions are the way to go, they were marked as clueless idiots, amateurs who just 'dont get it' and all that. Look around where we are atm.. everyone who switched back then now have years of advantage in understanding and real life experience (not even mentioning the clear benefits during their daily work).

    On the other side, labeling Ruby as a better Perl makes no sense at all for me and only signals a rather shallow undestanding of the topic. Is it just me thinking that?
  25. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?[ Go to top ]

    I think the potential of the Java platform is still being realized. For example:

    - Java 5 has a lot of worthwhile enhancements. Sure, there are things that we now realize are nice that it doesn't have, and some things (such as annotations) were done in a disappointing way IMO; but it's a much nicer language to program in than previous versions of Java. I now feel ill when I have to interact with an Iterator when maintainng old code, and do all that casting, for example... The challenge of course, is where the language goes next--progress can't stop, but of course introducing new things into an established language is always a challenge.

    - Scripting languages such as Groovy et al that run on the Java platform. I think we need to embrace and welcome this, and see the JVM as more than just the Java language.

    - AspectJ is by far the most capable AOP solution in any language. It resulted from the original research and thought leadership in this area. And it's available both as a backward compatible extension to Java, and in an annotation-style syntax that javac can compile. Yes, I know the arguments that "in language [insert name of favoured language] you don't need AOP," but I don't buy them. What gives AOP its power is the pointcut concept, and that isn't just solved by metaclasses and the like.

    - Vigorous innovation in frameworks. For example, we believe that Spring 2.0 significantly advances the state of the art wrt POJO programming models. I'm now more excited about the possibilities for the next few versions of Spring than I've been since we set out. Java is a hotbed of open source innovation, and I think we'll see that become increasingly beneficial for the platform as a whole.

    Sure, we need to watch and learn from other languages platforms, but we shouldn't undersell ourselves.

    Rgds
    Rod
  26. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?[ Go to top ]

    Rod Johnson:
    Yes, I know the arguments that "in language [insert name of favoured language] you don't need AOP," but I don't buy them. What gives AOP its power is the pointcut concept, and that isn't just solved by metaclasses and the like.

    Do you have any experience with lisp or lisp family languages (Scheme) ?
    It looks to me that you never tried lisp.
    But I may be wrong.
  27. Sure, there are things that we now realize are nice that it doesn't have, and some things (such as annotations) were done in a disappointing way IMO;

    I thought annotations were great until I used them on a project. Then, well, umm, err... YUCK!

    I am curious... Why don't you like the implementation?

    I hate the fact that your code has to import the annotations and then your code is tied to the annotation. It does not seem that different than depending on a interface (i.e., a marker interface).

    I'd like to see a soft import for annotations that does not impact compilation.
    (Java5 is a nicer) language to program in than previous versions of Java. I now feel ill when I have to interact with an Iterator when maintainng old code, and do all that casting, for example...

    I agree. I am on a project that uses JDK 1.4. It is very nice. We *may* switch to JDK 5, but we have a framework that has to run on both. My last project was JDK 5, and I miss it.
  28. Sure, there are things that we now realize are nice that it doesn't have, and some things (such as annotations) were done in a disappointing way IMO;
    I thought annotations were great until I used them on a project. Then, well, umm, err... YUCK! I am curious... Why don't you like the implementation? I hate the fact that your code has to import the annotations and then your code is tied to the annotation. It does not seem that different than depending on a interface (i.e., a marker interface). I'd like to see a soft import for annotations that does not impact compilation.
    (Java5 is a nicer) language to program in than previous versions of Java. I now feel ill when I have to interact with an Iterator when maintainng old code, and do all that casting, for example...
    I agree. I am on a project that uses JDK 1.4. It is very nice. We *may* switch to JDK 5, but we have a framework that has to run on both. My last project was JDK 5, and I miss it.

    I think it is a known bug and not a planned design.
    See this post :
    http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38198#194817
    Maybe the author can give more details.
  29. Sure, there are things that we now realize are nice that it doesn't have, and some things (such as annotations) were done in a disappointing way IMO;
    I thought annotations were great until I used them on a project. Then, well, umm, err... YUCK! I am curious... Why don't you like the implementation? I hate the fact that your code has to import the annotations and then your code is tied to the annotation. It does not seem that different than depending on a interface (i.e., a marker interface). I'd like to see a soft import for annotations that does not impact compilation.
    (Java5 is a nicer) language to program in than previous versions of Java. I now feel ill when I have to interact with an Iterator when maintainng old code, and do all that casting, for example...
    I agree. I am on a project that uses JDK 1.4. It is very nice. We *may* switch to JDK 5, but we have a framework that has to run on both. My last project was JDK 5, and I miss it.
    I think it is a known bug and not a planned design. See this post :http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38198#194817Maybe the author can give more details.

    Thanks. I did not know that. Cool! When?
  30. Rick
    I am curious... Why don't you like the implementation?
    The two things that bug me most are:

    1. No proper mechanism for overriding annotations at runtime, despite the fact that just about any framework that uses annotations is going to need to consider doing that.
    2. Inability for an annotation to extend an existing interface (even if that interface is simple enough to sit within annotations). Of course there are implementation issues around this one, I guess. But it means that it's hard to avoid code duplication when working with annotations and alternative metadata sources--something that's going to be particularly important until everyone and their dog uses Java 5, and anyway will remain important to work with existing code that may not have the right annotation.

    Rgds
    Rod
  31. Could we stop this spam please?[ Go to top ]

    I mean what is the purpose of asking this kind of questions?
  32. I mean what is the purpose of asking this kind of questions?
    Bad news is good news... ;)
  33. Could we stop this spam please?[ Go to top ]

    <q>I mean what is the purpose of asking this kind of questions?</q>

    It's to get the Java fanboys to circle the wagons and get their panties in a bunch. Even funnier is that "the Java community" has inadvertantly done more to hype RoR than David Hannson could have ever dreamed of.
  34. Could we stop this spam please?[ Go to top ]

    <q>I mean what is the purpose of asking this kind of questions?</q>It's to get the Java fanboys to circle the wagons and get their panties in a bunch. Even funnier is that "the Java community" has inadvertantly done more to hype RoR than David Hannson could have ever dreamed of.
    Yes, flame wars help to sell this kind of stuff. It was provoked for a good reason (marketing). I think RoR must continue this aggressive way to promote itself and to get attention. "the Java community" including myself doe's a great job for RoR.
  35. 10 years of healthy life? No, 10 years of controversy and the biggest and most expensive and ridiculous mistakes ever made in the industry.

    "Have the hyper-enthusiasts really left the building or are we witnessing a healthy turn-over?"

    Definitely. But Ruby? No, why don't you search the job-sites?

    .NET/C# and the related languages are replacing Java or as they say in the Open Source society: Java is successfully forked.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  36. But Ruby? No, why don't you search the job-sites?.NET/C# and the related languages are replacing Java or as they say in the Open Source society: Java is successfully forked.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    They aren't anywhere near replacing Java.

    dice.com:
    .NET or C# or VB.NET: 10,000
    java or j2ee: 13,000

    .NET use is about 77% of that of Java by these statistics. Remember what you predicted earlier in the year?
    At the job market Java still has a small advantage. Not for long though. At the current rate it is diminishing 1-2 percent every month.

    Go to any of the big job search sites: www.it.jobserve.com, dice.com or indeed.com and search on Java or J2EE vs C# or .NET. For the moment C#/.NET is 80 percent of Java/J2EE. That was 78 percent last month. .NET will pass Java in the beginning of the New Year.
    (from serverside.net)

    Looks kind of wrong now, doesn't it?
  37. They aren't anywhere near replacing Java.

    dice.com:
    .NET or C# or VB.NET: 10,000
    java or j2ee: 13,000

    .NET use is about 77% of that of Java by these statistics. Remember what you predicted earlier in the year?

    These job sites are not a good indicator of the demand for any given technology.
    1) Consulting companies do speculative advertising while competing on bids for business so they same potential job may be advertised by 10 different companies.
    2) Persons with skills in the very newest technologies are the hardest to find so you tend to cast a wider advertising net. A lot more people know Java now than 5 years ago.
    3) Many positions are filled by internal transfers and promotions and personal networking. The longer a company has been using a given technology, the more they depend on these means to fill those requirements.
    4) Universities and tech schools start teaching certain technologies, such as Java, after its been established, so new employees are being recruited from these schools.
    5) Once a technology is established and you've staffed up, you don't have as many new hires as you did when staffing up.
    You'd be surprised how many COBOL programmers there still are, but how often do you see and advertisement for one? I'd wager here are a lot more COBOL programmers working than professional Ruby programmers.
  38. These job sites are not a good indicator of the demand for any given technology.

    I think Steve is aware of this. He's just throwing Rolf's 'proof' back at him.
    You'd be surprised how many COBOL programmers there still are, but how often do you see and advertisement for one? I'd wager here are a lot more COBOL programmers working than professional Ruby programmers.

    I guarantee it. Most of the people I work with are COBOL developers. And in the near future, they are going to be very hard to come by.
  39. These job sites are not a good indicator of the demand for any given technology.
    I think Steve is aware of this. He's just throwing Rolf's 'proof' back at him.

    Exactly.

    Finding out how widely used a language or technology is is very tricky. Dice.com shows only 13(!) jobs for Ruby on Rails, but I am sure that it is far more widely used that this indicates.
  40. Remember what you predicted earlier in the year?
    At the job market Java still has a small advantage. Not for long though. At the current rate it is diminishing 1-2 percent every month.Go to any of the big job search sites: www.it.jobserve.com, dice.com or indeed.com and search on Java or J2EE vs C# or .NET. For the moment C#/.NET is 80 percent of Java/J2EE. That was 78 percent last month. .NET will pass Java in the beginning of the New Year.
    (from serverside.net)Looks kind of wrong now, doesn't it?

    Rolf is like Disco Stu.

    "Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If this trend continues... AAY!"

    The reality is that for the most part, .NET is a code-word for VB.
  41. The reality is that for the most part, .NET is a code-word for VB.

    That's how it looks to me. Who ever programmed with VB, is now programming with VB.NET, not C#. For example, in the company I work for, I am the only one using C#, the rest use VB.NET. In fact, they never ever considered anything else, period. They were comfortable with the VB name and trusted it would be the right way...afterall most of them never ever programmed with anything else, or even knew anything about Java, for example. Some had heard about C#, but it seemed a step away from the comfy VB title.
  42. Who ever programmed with VB, is now programming with VB.NET, not C#
    Not 100%. I used to do VB (well, still do). I avoid VB.Net like the plague. There are others too.
  43. The reality is that for the most part, .NET is a code-word for VB.
    This is not what I'm seeing with the kind of customers we deal with. There's a lot of C# out there, and quite a lot of developers are doing both C# and Java (and no VB). In fact, if anything, VB developers tend to feel disenfranchised by .NET. Many of them didn't really want an OO language (despite being told it was good for them), and now find that VB.NET is basically VB-like syntax on C#.
  44. and now find that VB.NET is basically VB-like syntax on C#
    Except the IDE still acts like the old VB IDE and is a big pain. I would much rather use Eclipse than VS.Net or VS6.
  45. But Ruby? No, why don't you search the job-sites?.NET/C# and the related languages are replacing Java or as they say in the Open Source society: Java is successfully forked.RegardsRolf Tollerud
    They aren't anywhere near replacing Java.dice.com:.NET or C# or VB.NET: 10,000java or j2ee: 13,000.NET use is about 77% of that of Java by these statistics. Remember what you predicted earlier in the year?
    At the job market Java still has a small advantage. Not for long though. At the current rate it is diminishing 1-2 percent every month.Go to any of the big job search sites: www.it.jobserve.com, dice.com or indeed.com and search on Java or J2EE vs C# or .NET. For the moment C#/.NET is 80 percent of Java/J2EE. That was 78 percent last month. .NET will pass Java in the beginning of the New Year.
    (from serverside.net)Looks kind of wrong now, doesn't it?

    Good reply. It is important to hold people to their predictions. I know I have made a few that did not come to pass.
  46. It is important to hold people to their predictions. I know I have made a few that did not come to pass.
    Know what you mean. I'm not selling everything and sitting on a mountain top this year! Talk about lessons learned.
  47. Speaking of [Rolf] being wrong - Just saw this
    http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/crm/story/0,10801,107253,00.html

    "Although Salesforce.com has made a point of branding itself as different, the incident proves that it's susceptible to the same problems other high-tech companies experience"

    "They're supposed to be bulletproof and offer the end of [internally run] software, and they're showing how vulnerable they can be," he said. "You can't blame them. This is the price of being in the high-tech business. It's ironic because Salesforce.com was supposed to break the mold -- the outage confirmed some of the mold can't be broken."

    lol. ltic.
  48. 10 years of healthy life? No, 10 years of controversy and the biggest and most expensive and ridiculous mistakes ever made in the industry."Have the hyper-enthusiasts really left the building or are we witnessing a healthy turn-over?"Definitely. But Ruby? No, why don't you search the job-sites?.NET/C# and the related languages are replacing Java or as they say in the Open Source society: Java is successfully forked.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Rolf, such hate. The ironic thing I find is that developers with Java background are far more comfortable with .NET than the ditched VB developers. Afterall, Microsoft was smart to discontinue VB support, or only a very few had moved to .NET. So, maybe .NET's popularity is a fake and artificial, huh?
  49. 10 years of healthy life? No, 10 years of controversy and the biggest and most expensive and ridiculous mistakes ever made in the industry."Have the hyper-enthusiasts really left the building or are we witnessing a healthy turn-over?"Definitely. But Ruby? No, why don't you search the job-sites?.NET/C# and the related languages are replacing Java or as they say in the Open Source society: Java is successfully forked.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Rolf - are you saying that C# is merely MS's second attempt to fork Java (after the previous attempt failed) - interesting accusation.

    Microsoft and their customers have an interesting 3-5 years ahead of them and hard choices to make. Do developers go with Microsoft's aggressive migration from VC++ / VB 6.0 to .NET. Will MS extend the retirement of these technologies to give customers time to migrate and therefore fragment their own platform ?

    I think it is reasonable for customers to take this opportunity to move away from Microsoft - ironically - especially those that have been with MS the longest - those that have already been through a couple of aggressive (at costly migrations)and understand the TRUE long term costs of the MS platform.

    I think it also reasonable for many of those shops to move to Java - it's a stable multi-vendor industry with a good track record of compatibility between releases; yet still produces some stunning innovation (the language as well as the open source frameworks and vendor extensions). We also know that moving from .NET/C# to Java isn't that big a deal (equally true the other way) - so it could play out (worst case for MS) that they end up with two camps of VB developers and become even more entrenched in the low (but big) end of the market.

    One of the threats from Java is LAMP but today LAMP is really only capable at the lower end of the market (.NET's stronghold) so I actually think that .NET will feel the threat of LAMP more (and sooner) than Java.

    Overall - things will continue to be fun as Java encroaches into MS's territory (volume workplace apps) and VB/C# attempt to move into the Enterprise market.

    Rich Sharples
    (self proclaimed Java fanboy who got badly burned with MS COM, DCOM, Active-X 'platform')
    Sun Microsystems
    http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/sharps
  50. We also know that moving from .NET/C# to Java isn't that big a deal

    Uh... Are you serious?!?

    --
    Cedric
  51. Java forked ? you must be forking joking !![ Go to top ]

    We also know that moving from .NET/C# to Java isn't that big a deal
    Uh... Are you serious?!?-- Cedric
    Not if you've used NHIbernate and Springframework.net and ... :)

    It probably would be a little initimating at first because of all that is at your disposal and due to all the choices.

    On the other hand, going from Java to .Net is frustrating. "You mean I don't have X? You mean I gotta pay for Y?" (Not that paying for products is bad)
  52. We also know that moving from .NET/C# to Java isn't that big a deal
    Uh... Are you serious?!?-- Cedric


    OK, bad choice of words - I didn't mean to trivialize the effort involved.

    However, gaining proficiency in Java or C# (from C# or Java) isn't anywhere as time consuming or expensive as moving from other platforms / languages such as the remaining 4GLs, Cobol or VB6. [source - Gartner, December 2005]

    So that's interesting - the two dominant platforms are now probably more alike than they are different (relatively speaking) and that similarity is likely to increase around common adoption of WS technologies in both platforms. I'm not sure what that means for either platform but it's got to be good for the industry as a whole.


    Rich Sharples
    Sun Microsystems
    http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/sharps
  53. I didn't mean to trivialize the effort involved. However, gaining proficiency in Java or C# (from C# or Java) isn't anywhere as time consuming or expensive as moving from other platforms / languages such as the remaining 4GLs, Cobol or VB6. [source - Gartner, December 2005]
    I think you are still missing the point.

    Migrating from .Net to Java isn't just about the languages. Languages are the easy part. The hard part is... all the rest.

    Training/hiring people, changing the software, hardware, maintaining a park of different machines, topologies and back-ends, etc...

    For that reason alone, it is pretty much impossible to migrate from one technology to the other, no matter how appealing the switch looks to developers.

    --
    Cedric
  54. I didn't mean to trivialize the effort involved. However, gaining proficiency in Java or C# (from C# or Java) isn't anywhere as time consuming or expensive as moving from other platforms / languages such as the remaining 4GLs, Cobol or VB6. [source - Gartner, December 2005]
    I think you are still missing the point.Migrating from .Net to Java isn't just about the languages. Languages are the easy part. The hard part is... all the rest.Training/hiring people, changing the software, hardware, maintaining a park of different machines, topologies and back-ends, etc...For that reason alone, it is pretty much impossible to migrate from one technology to the other, no matter how appealing the switch looks to developers.-- Cedric

    I fully understand the scope and costs of such switches (from a developer and an organizational POV) - having been personally involved in a couple of such platform switches already :

    FORTRAN / C / VMS -> CORBA / C++ / Unix -> MFC / DCOM / Windows -> Java

    (I guess I'm showing my age)

    Most developers will at some point make similar switches and many IT orgs. make strategic platform switches (despite the up front costs). If this weren't the case then this would be the Enterprise COBOL community (not Java or .NET).

    Interestingly, what I've seen in the last 3 or 4 years is IT folks not so much asking why Java is better than .NET but _how_ the two can coexist; because they increasingly have both.

    - Rich
  55. justice comes justice is served[ Go to top ]

    Rich Sharples,
    "Rolf - are you saying that C# is merely MS's second attempt to fork Java (after the previous attempt failed) - interesting accusation"

    One of the more interesting aspects of the reality of life is how acting as a rough is not generally a smart thing, so often the punishment comes - as if it really exist an old-testament ominous God lurking to deal out punishments.

    If Sun had not sued their best customer (one of the most outrageously rotten act ever done) Java, maybe a different and better Java but still Java (controlled by Sun) would have ruled in sovereign majesty and their stock would not had approached junk status.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  56. Sun hat no choice[ Go to top ]

    Sun had no choice, it sort of was an act of self defense.
    Microsoft tried to take over java, by not implementing JSR APIs and pushing their own Windows tied stuff into the java namespace (instead of pushing it into their own)

    The court trial was clear, and even some internal communication within Microsoft which came out in the anti trust trial proved that.

    It was not fun for Sun either to drag Microsoft into court, but they tried their old embrace, extend take over, tie it to windows only game, like they had done numerous times before.
    And they had signed a contract which clearly stated, extensions into their own namespace and the APIs have to be delivered fully not only partially where it fits Microsoft.
  57. justice comes justice is served[ Go to top ]

    One of the more interesting aspects of the reality of life is how acting as a rough is not generally a smart thing, so often the punishment comes - as if it really exist an old-testament ominous God lurking to deal out punishments.
    Great. Now you're a Biblical Scholar? I suggest re-reading the OT to get a better view of the good things He did.

    "Now back to your regularly scheduled techno banter ..."
    If Sun had not sued their best customer (one of the most outrageously rotten act ever done) Java, maybe a different and better Java
    Riiiight. And maybe one day I might be president/prime minister/king.
  58. justice comes justice is served[ Go to top ]

    If Sun had not sued their best customer (one of the most outrageously rotten act ever done)

    What was it that made them a great customer, violating their contract or trying to steal their brand? With good customers like that, who needs bad customers?
  59. justice WAS served[ Go to top ]

    Rich Sharples,"Rolf - are you saying that C# is merely MS's second attempt to fork Java (after the previous attempt failed) - interesting accusation"One of the more interesting aspects of the reality of life is how acting as a rough is not generally a smart thing, so often the punishment comes - as if it really exist an old-testament ominous God lurking to deal out punishments.

    error: syntax error before "lurking" - failed to parse.
    If Sun had not sued their best customer (one of the most outrageously rotten act ever done) Java, maybe a different and better Java but still Java (controlled by Sun) would have ruled in sovereign majesty and their stock would not had approached junk status.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    If you're saying that _had_ MS played fair (in the legal sense) with the license and _had_ adopted Java and enhanced it in a way that all could have benefited - then I partially agree - things could've worked out pretty sweet for Java on the desktop. But of course MS never wanted it that way; more's the pity. It's also a shame that the settlement was limited to just Sun's losses - I think an entire industry was stiffled by MS's actions.

    Rich Sharples
    Sun Microsystems
    http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/sharps
  60. "If you're saying that _had_ MS played fair (in the legal sense)"

    They did play fair in the legal sense, you don't think people fall for that nonsense because they(MS) was convicted do you? That was certainly not the first case of mob justice in America. Contrary to what you believe I am nor the only one that have reason, logic and common sense.

    The so called wrongs that MS was supposed had done would need a magnifying glass - no an electron-microscope to be noticed.

    But that is not the only reason I am against Sun. Sun represent the opposite to all what I stand for more than a dozen important issues in life and society.

    But why argue? Microsoft is more successful that ever and Sun is on its way down to oblivion and incompetence..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  61. "If you're saying that _had_ MS played fair (in the legal sense)"They did play fair in the legal sense, you don't think people fall for that nonsense because they(MS) was convicted do you?

    The first sign that you are full of shit. They weren't convicted. It was a civil suit. Convictions only apply to criminal trials.
    That was certainly not the first case of mob justice in America. Contrary to what you believe I am nor the only one that have reason, logic and common sense. The so called wrongs that MS was supposed had done would need a magnifying glass - no an electron-microscope to be noticed.?

    More bullshit. They modified the JVM in a way that made it incompatible with the standards they explicitly agreed to follow. What exactly do you think contracts are? But you never feel the need to have facts on your side to make an argument. Truth in your mind is what whatever you wish it to be.
  62. But why argue? Microsoft is more successful that ever and Sun is on its way down to oblivion and incompetence.

    Speaking of losers who attempt self-validation by associating themselves with corporations, sports teams, soap opera characters, teenage boy bands, ... sad. Very sad.

    Peace.
  63. Hi Cameron,

    It is comfortable to know that you have not changed - you are still available to raise the quality of the discussion!

    Best regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  64. justice WAS served[ Go to top ]

    Sorry Rich, nothing personal if I keep replying to you, but you keep saying things I object to :-)
    If you're saying that _had_ MS played fair (in the legal sense) with the license and _had_ adopted Java and enhanced it in a way that all could have benefited - then I partially agree - things could've worked out pretty sweet for Java on the desktop.
    Blaming only Microsoft for the failure of Java on the desktop is a little simplistic.

    Sun is hugely to blame as well for taking so long to provide supported hooks into native platforms. It's good to see that JDIC and other initiatives are finally fixing this, but it's way too late, and is you were wondering why developers are adopting SWT with so much enthusiasm, look no further.

    Since day one, developers have requested access to native Windows/Linux/MacOS functions from Java (task bar, system tray, COM, etc...) but have been completely ignored by Mc Nealy in his obsession to obliterate Microsoft.

    --
    Cedric
  65. justice WAS served[ Go to top ]

    Yes, the failure of Java on the desktop lies completely with Sun. Although Sun seems to be taking Swing a bit more seriously these days, there was that stretch around 2001-2003 that they had all but given up on anything desktop related. IBM recognized the failure and came up with SWT. But timing is everything, and at this point it doesn't really matter what Sun does with Swing.

    McNealy was screaming Java is the platform and the OS is irrelevant back in the late 90s and we all know how that turned out. Who knows what Sun was thinking taking Microsoft head on.
  66. But you ordered gravy on your ice cream![ Go to top ]

    Yes, the failure of Java on the desktop lies completely with Sun. Although Sun seems to be taking Swing a bit more seriously these days, there was that stretch around 2001-2003 that they had all but given up on anything desktop related.
    Most of the fault there lays with those who thought/think the browser is the place for application UIs. Why spend time and money on something very few want? Thankfully some are finally coming to their senses.
  67. But you ordered gravy on your ice cream![ Go to top ]

    Yes, the failure of Java on the desktop lies completely with Sun. Although Sun seems to be taking Swing a bit more seriously these days, there was that stretch around 2001-2003 that they had all but given up on anything desktop related.

    Most of the fault there lays with those who thought/think the browser is the place for application UIs. Why spend time and money on something very few want? Thankfully some are finally coming to their senses.

    Who..what..when...where? So you're now blaming the browser for Sun's failures? Hilarious.
  68. I'm not following. Was I supposed to?[ Go to top ]

    Who..what..when...where? So you're now blaming the browser for Sun's failures? Hilarious.
    Uh. No. Re-read what I wrote.

    A. Not the browser.
    B. Not all failures.
    C. Not all "blame".

    Try to think about the timing of the web and Java and how many people where really begging for new desktop technology. Could Sun have done more? Yes, as is obvious by what they are doing now. But you have to look at the whole picture (well, you should). All the pieces to the puzzle.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29
  69. justice WAS served[ Go to top ]

    Sorry Rich, nothing personal if I keep replying to you, but you keep saying things I object to :-)
    If you're saying that _had_ MS played fair (in the legal sense) with the license and _had_ adopted Java and enhanced it in a way that all could have benefited - then I partially agree - things could've worked out pretty sweet for Java on the desktop.
    Blaming only Microsoft for the failure of Java on the desktop is a little simplistic.Sun is hugely to blame as well for taking so long to provide supported hooks into native platforms. It's good to see that JDIC and other initiatives are finally fixing this, but it's way too late, and is you were wondering why developers are adopting SWT with so much enthusiasm, look no further.Since day one, developers have requested access to native Windows/Linux/MacOS functions from Java (task bar, system tray, COM, etc...) but have been completely ignored by Mc Nealy in his obsession to obliterate Microsoft.-- Cedric


    Non taken.

    No, I'm not solely blaming MS - that would be lame. However, that Java was essentially disadvanted on _the_ dominant desktop OS for a couple of years as a consequence of the MS/Java case didn't exactly help it gain momentum on the desktop.

    - Rich
  70. Sun and Java stands for bureaucracy[ Go to top ]

    And so the battle goes on. Here is Bill Burke coming up with a new criminal act by MS that I not even have heard of and Tero Vaananen says ".NET is just light years behind Java", what a joke!

    This battle has nothing to do with computer languages, it is between the Nupedias and the Wikipedias of the world. And I forgot to say, it is not only the incompetents that defends their positions. The mediocre and even those that actually know something also protect themselves at all cost.

    So when a young and talented persons wants to learn something which possible could be done in a week or two or at most in 5-6 weeks, they are being stalled with like "you have to know this first" (completely unrelated material), "First you have to unlearn everything" (that will take its little time though)", "You have to understand the ZEN of it", "after 5 years I begin to understand", "You doesn't have an academic degree", "This is too expensive to play with" and so on, the variations are endless.

    The long and short of it is, if older and more experienced folk are in a position to guard some knowledge from the young and talented they will do so. They exaggerate and hyperbole what they know to inflate their egos and protect against competition.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  71. Are you a young and talented person or older and more experienced folk in this battle ?
  72. Sun and Java stands for bureaucracy[ Go to top ]

    The long and short of it is, if older and more experienced folk are in a position to guard some knowledge from the young and talented they will do so. They exaggerate and hyperbole what they know to inflate their egos and protect against competition. RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Of course, it is good to let people flourish in their jobs, and any person in a mentoring position with any experience and knowledge knows this. They will do a good job for you, and you succeed in the process.
  73. "They modified the JVM in a way that made it incompatible with the standards"

    What hypocrisy. Sun turned their rotten act into that MS was the villain. MS was accused of two breaches of contract:

    1) They have not done a complete implementation.
    Some small things was left but Netscape had not done all either (for example Java Remote Method Invocation classes). But Netscape were not sued.

    2) That they had modified the JVM.
    But MS never modified but added to it (which was permissible under the contract). They added the Microsoft SDK for Java (also known as the Windows Foundation Classes or WFC) which is exactly the same as IBM has been doing with SWT. But IBM was not sued.

    That was MS BIG crimes.

    But as I said "justice is served" so who cares.

    But noticing Mcnealys extreme vehemence everyone can understand that it is more behind the conflict than just business and money. There are some fundamental issues buried, I will try to explain with an example.

    Wikipedia was build on the ashes of its failed predecessor Nupedia. Nepedias idea was that a "group of renowned scholars should approve every article in a 7 step procedure". After one year and million dollar they had 18 articles.. When they scrapped the academicians and let everyone write it became a great success with over 40 million articles "as accurate as encyclopedia Britannica".

    There are a lot of people in the world that would like to hide away and draw salary in a company/institution while pretending to be oracles of wisdom when they in reality are incompetents.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  74. What hypocrisy. Sun turned their rotten act into that MS was the villain. MS was accused of two breaches of contract:

    1) They have not done a complete implementation.
    Some small things was left but Netscape had not done all either (for example Java Remote Method Invocation classes). But Netscape were not sued.

    2) That they had modified the JVM.
    But MS never modified but added to it (which was permissible under the contract). They added the Microsoft SDK for Java (also known as the Windows Foundation Classes or WFC) which is exactly the same as IBM has been doing with SWT. But IBM was not sued.

    I think you're missing a key violation. Please correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought microsoft compiled in special code attributes (code attributes are like annotations in bytecode land) that did special things if run within the MS VM and that *this* was the main complaint of the suit.

    Bill
  75. "They modified the JVM in a way that made it incompatible with the standards"What hypocrisy. Sun turned their rotten act into that MS was the villain. MS was accused of two breaches of contract:1) They have not done a complete implementation.Some small things was left but Netscape had not done all either (for example Java Remote Method Invocation classes). But Netscape were not sued.2) That they had modified the JVM. But MS never modified but added to it (which was permissible under the contract). They added the Microsoft SDK for Java (also known as the Windows Foundation Classes or WFC) which is exactly the same as IBM has been doing with SWT. But IBM was not sued.That was MS BIG crimes.

    In May 1995 Netscape agreed with Sun to distribute a copy of the Java runtime environment with every copy of Navigator, and "Navigator quickly became the principal vehicle by which Sun placed copies of its Java runtime environment on the PC systems of Windows users." Id. p 76. Microsoft, too, agreed to promote the Java technologies--or so it seemed. For at the same time, Microsoft took steps "to maximize the difficulty with which applications written in Java could be ported from Windows to other platforms, and vice versa." Conclusions of Law, at 43. Specifically, the District Court found that Microsoft took four steps to exclude Java from developing as a viable cross-platform threat: (a) designing a JVM incompatible with the one developed by Sun; (b) entering into contracts, the so-called "First Wave Agreements," requiring major ISVs to promote Microsoft's JVM exclusively; (c) deceiving Java developers about the Windows-specific nature of the tools it distributed to them; and (d) coercing Intel to stop aiding Sun in improving the Java technologies.
  76. About (a)

    "designing a JVM incompatible with the one developed by Sun"

    As I have showed above, they added to it not changed.

    And about the rest you must be joking,(b)(c)(d) is done every day by every company on earth.

    I do not intend to return to TSS I only want to give Java a last kick on the way down. After all I am only human!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  77. I only want to give Java a last kick on the way down.
    Let us know how hot it is when you get down there. :)
  78. About (a)"designing a JVM incompatible with the one developed by Sun" As I have showed above, they added to it not changed.

    You didn't showed me nothing. You wrote that, you didn't show jackshit.

    RMI isn't part of the JVM. It's neither here nor there. It wasn't even part of the JDK at the time. I don't know why you keep asserting competely inaccurate statements.
    And about the rest you must be joking,(b)(c)(d) is done every day by every company on earth.

    These were the findings of fact in the case. Whether on not you think this is what everyone does, MS agreeed not to do this on a contract. Everyone speeds uYou aren't making logical arguments here, you are just rooting for your team. BTW, your team doesn't give a crap about you. Why love a corporation? I can't think of anything more pathetic.
  79. I only want to give Java a last kick on the way down. After all I am only human!RegardsRolf Tollerud

    As by all the statistics you have in the passed used to measure Java's use and market penetration, Java is on the way up, then according to Galilean/Einsteinian relativity - you must be on the way down. However, relativity says all viewpoints are relative, so if Java is on the way down, so are .NET, Linux, Windows, AMD... even ruby!
  80. :1) They have not done a complete implementation.Some small things was left but Netscape had not done all either (for example Java Remote Method Invocation classes). But Netscape were not sued.

    Strange logic. It is OK for Microsoft to do wrong, as long as Netscape do it and aren't sued...
    2) That they had modified the JVM. But MS never modified but added to it (which was permissible under the contract). They added the Microsoft SDK for Java (also known as the Windows Foundation Classes or WFC) which is exactly the same as IBM has been doing with SWT.

    No. IBM did not add SWT in a way that limited the use of SWT applications to IBM platforms, or even to IBM JREs.
  81. I like C# and parts of .NET[ Go to top ]

    10 years of healthy life? No, 10 years of controversy and the biggest and most expensive and ridiculous mistakes ever made in the industry."Have the hyper-enthusiasts really left the building or are we witnessing a healthy turn-over?"Definitely. But Ruby? No, why don't you search the job-sites?

    .NET/C# and the related languages are replacing Java or as they say in the Open Source society: Java is successfully forked.RegardsRolf Tollerud

    Back to your old game I see :)

    Quite honestly I don't see that. I like many of the things C# has done and .NET is doing a great job of copying Java. Java has also done a great job of copying C#, so it's all good. It's anyone's guess what the next dominant language is, but what ever it is, I sure hope it's better than java, C#, and ruby.

    give me a grid capable language, where any given process can be divided into discrete chunks and sent off to other systems. This way, software gets much closer to really horizontal scaling, without being a total expert.

    my bias 2 cents

    peter
  82. I like C# and parts of .NET[ Go to top ]

    give me a grid capable language, where any given process can be divided into discrete chunks and sent off to other systems. This way, software gets much closer to really horizontal scaling, without being a total expert.

    I don't know about a new language, but you can already do it in Java ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
  83. :) of course[ Go to top ]

    give me a grid capable language, where any given process can be divided into discrete chunks and sent off to other systems. This way, software gets much closer to really horizontal scaling, without being a total expert.

    I don't know about a new language, but you can already do it in Java ;-)Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid

    yeah, there definitely are choices today that are mature and robust in Java. But, for the rest of us that aren't experts or have major bucks to spend, it's still a difficult thing to achieve. Not that I think this mythical language will suddenly appear. Probably take decades before that's remotely a possibility at a language level.

    peter
  84. The hyper-enthusiasts have moved on to other languages because that's where they have ample space to re-invent various wheels. They'll find another language after they're done :-)
    The HEs are the ones who declare a technology mature when they've written the book, not when it is running in production.
    The HEs are getting bored with a technology quickly; must be ADD :-)
  85. +1
    The hyper-enthusiasts have moved on to other languages because that's where they have ample space to re-invent various wheels. They'll find another language after they're done :-)The HEs are the ones who declare a technology mature when they've written the book, not when it is running in production.The HEs are getting bored with a technology quickly; must be ADD :-)
  86. TSS is getting lame. There are too many discussions about supposed trends in how many people are using Java, or not using it. What happened to the software patterns, announcements of new products, evaluations of different approaches?

    Here are some new discussion topics I expect to see:

    - My brother's company switched from Java to .NET. What does this mean??????

    - Ruby was presented twice at the developer conference, and only java only once. Is Ruby taking over the world?

    - High School freshman find Java too hard because of difficult syntax, no free Coke, and it can't run on their iPod.
  87. I totally agree ...

    Where is the POTSS (Plain Old The Server Side)?
  88. I want more product and framework release announcements too!

    Also, I think we need to hear a lot more about AJAX - you know that way of asking for browser content using javascript? That's definitely server-side!

    Y'all come on back now!
  89. Because people who are serious about these topics are busy writing applications and are not wasting time pretending to be smart by learning and tallking about all the latest and greatest and predicting how it will change the world.
  90. assembler is making a comeback...[ Go to top ]

    ...isn't it??

    "hyper-enthusiasts" == "book writers"

    the (java book) market is saturated. yes, they've moved on. so-be-it/good-riddence. let them go ruin some other language.

    maybe java can go on a diet finally.
  91. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?[ Go to top ]

    I'll second Cedric and say that the enthusiasts didn't go away. No they didn't go away, they became a common thing, who says they dissapeared can't see the forest because of the trees.

    I think there are pretty few who actually programmed few years in java and aren't enthusiastic about it. Well, maybe Rolf :-D.
  92. The nxet lngaguge wlil be cllead JANET!

    It wlil be a cosrs-bered of Jvaa and .ENT so taht yuor cntrool ftesih can be flufllied.
  93. Java in the toilet[ Go to top ]

    I was on a business trip in Japan and happend to hear two engineers debating the demise of Java, to which I kindly reminded them, "The shitter that your sitting on, the one that washes and blow dries your ass, has a JVM in it."

    Ruby, Python, PHP have their place, simple crud applications done quickly. If you want greater productivity, check JDeveloper or Eclipse,Wicket and SQL Maps.
  94. Geeky, geekier, geekiest[ Go to top ]

    Whenever something becomes to common or too easy to use we need to invent something new add then add some rationale for its existence.
  95. usage statistics[ Go to top ]

    Here are some interesting usage statistics that compare Java and .NET (July 2005):

    http://www.forrester.com/Research/Document/Excerpt/0,7211,37356,00.html

    “Of Strategic Languages, Java's Adoption Is Highest “

    When .NET came out it was supposed to KILL Java. Did not happen. Java continues to thrive.

    Things are looking great in Java land:

    1)Fast, powerful VM's (1.5, 1.6)
    2)The soon completion of ClassPath
    3)Excellent, OSS IDE's: Netbeans and Eclipse
    4)Excellent, OSS Application Servers: Tomcat, Jboss, Jerenamo, etc.

    There is simply no reason to pay for .NET and lose all of the freedom you get with Java, unless you are already a M$ shop.

    The future of Java looks brighter than ever...and I'm staying in the Java camp.

    Mike
  96. usage statistics[ Go to top ]

    ... Things are looking great in Java land:1)Fast, powerful VM's (1.5, 1.6)2)The soon completion of ClassPath3)Excellent, OSS IDE's: Netbeans and Eclipse4)Excellent, OSS Application Servers: Tomcat, Jboss, Jerenamo, etc.

    What about GlassFish !!!

    https://glassfish.dev.java.net/

    :)

    Rich Sharples
    Sun Microsystems
    http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/sharps
  97. Where did the hyper-enthusiasts go?[ Go to top ]

    The "hyper-enthusiasts", as they are euphemistically called by the article, are no more (and no less) than a bunch of consultants who want to advertise their expertise in order to gain more consulting gigs. They are not that outspoken because they know more or are brighter than other developers, but because their blogs and websites like Artima or TheServerSide grant them the benefit of publicity promotion at no cost.

    Now, as mainstream development has moved to Javaland for good, these consultants are not needed anymore. Everybody and their dog can write a good Java application that uses decent frameworks and OR mappers and thus performs well in most tasks. So, more enthusiastic propaganda for Java does not pay the bill for these folks anymore -- they have to discover a new niche market where their service is still needed. In this case, what could be better than a language that only few people know yet? Instantly, the consultant's services appear valuable again!

    My advice: Don't follow the hype unless you have good reasons to do so. "A cobbler should stick to his last," as we say in Germany. Sure, PHP, Perl, Ruby, C# have all their place in software development. But they are not to replace Java -- for now. For this, their benefits over Java still are too small.

    Cheers, Lars
  98. Is bruce a great developer?[ Go to top ]

    I don't think he is a good developer,although he a good language teacher.he has no interesting to improve something in either c++ or Java.
  99. Smart people get bored easily...[ Go to top ]

    From seeing quite a few of these hyper-enthusiasts speak over the past couple years, I've never really got the impression that they've abadoned Java. They've simply found something "new" and exciting to play with that isn't Java 5.0 or Spring.

    ...plus, many of them write books for a living. New, popular technologies are going to be high on their priority list.
  100. Smart people get bored easily...[ Go to top ]

    From seeing quite a few of these hyper-enthusiasts speak over the past couple years, I've never really got the impression that they've abadoned Java. They've simply found something "new" and exciting to play with that isn't Java 5.0 or Spring. ...plus, many of them write books for a living. New, popular technologies are going to be high on their priority list.
    Speaking as one who frequently rubs shoulders with the folks (I think) you're referring to, I can most heartily endorse your assessment: None of the great Ruby-enthusiasts have "abandoned" Java (whatever that means). They simply have found another tool that they like and are hanging on their tool belt, and are telling others about it because they (quite rightly) assume that the practicing Java programmer has too much to do to be wandering around the language landscape, trying new things every few months or so.... And as for the "write books for a living" comment, let me reassure you, NONE of the "hyper-enthusiasts" make a living off of writing a book. Of all the authors I know, the only ones who made any kind of decent money (meaning, more than what you made last year) on a book are Jason Hunter and Dave Thomas. Writing books is an exercise of passion and love, not a wise financial move.