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News: Article: Web 2.01, a rich internet application example

  1. This article by Vic Cekvinich shows what "Web 2.01" might look like, using a rich internet application as a client instead of the more popular web browser. Despite Vic's none too enthusiastic endorsement of Java on the server side, it's an interesting article showing how rich clients can be leveraged.

    Read Web 2.01, a rich internet application example.

    Threaded Messages (81)

  2. It is puzzling that Java is considered as more powerful in the desktop than in the server, since reality is otherwise. Thus, either reality is wrong, or the article is in this respect.

    The client-side (the "face") of Web 1.0 was the HTML browser, and in fact this was a very large percent of its success. Reviewing the alternatives for the face of Web 2.0 given in the article:

    - Java has always been an utterly failure when coming to client-side applications, and it will remain to be so as long as 90% of the workstations of the world do not come with a JVM preinstalled - namely, until Windows does not come with a JVM again. And since MS has bet its future on .Net, it will be hardly so.

    - The whole point of the web, HTML, XML, web services, SOA et al is that it must be platform agnostic. Web 1.0 is mainly platform agnostic and Web 2.0 will also be, even more. Arguabily, .Net will never be platform agnostic, and even if there are properly emulations in non-Windows systems, lots of people will never consider it as an universal platform for running client-side applications. Thus, I'd rule out .Net too.

    - Flash is indeed a fine thing, powerful and appealing. Only, since it is proprietary, I find it difficult for it to be the "face" of Web 2.0 . Also, usually you need to pay to create Flash content (yeah, I know OpenLaszlo, but the vast majority of Flash out there is built with the Flash designer, plus a little with Flex). These two things would have to change for Flash to become this face, but also it would have to prove to be, or evolve into, a platform solid enough for professional application development. Also, given the intertia, I find it very difficult to switch away from HTML.

    - AJAX is mainly a frenzy that will pass (along with all of its usually unnamed varieties like just JAX or JSON). But Javascript + DHTML will stay as a popular method to create RiAs because it fulfills the main requisites that any Web x.x client platform must have.

    I think that the features that made the HTML browser a success were:
    1. Ubiquitous (which implies platform-agnostic)
    3. Easy and free to create content for (many early web sites were created just by "view source" and copy+paste on a notepad)

    And for the Web 2.0 client-side platform they should be the same, plus the ability to include control and presentation logic in the client side, for which is very easy to discover and access web services. (Hopefully domain logic will remain in the server, although sadly in many projects this rule will be broken.)

    Given the existing intertia, I will rule out that this platform would be anything else than a browser. Only, for sure it will be an enhanced browser.

    From between the two camps of dynamic typed (scripting) languages / strongly typed languages, I rather fall in the second one, and thus I do not consider Javascript as a proper platform for creating professional robust applications. Of course it is not that it is not possible to create them, only that the average real life development team of the average real life project will create just a mess if trying to implement a large project with Javascript. I have seen messes enough just from trying to use much Javascript in regular, server-side Java web applications, and I usually flee from it.

    But indeed my guess is that Javascript+DHTML, as a popular tool already, and embraced both by Microsoft and "all the rest", will be the tool of choice for creating client side applications. It will evolve so that it is able to easily discover services, connect everywhere without posing a security risk, and hopefully something will be made in order for it to become a more suitable tool for creating professional, complex applications (e.g. maybe it will be optionally brought closer to Java or .Net). Also, more powerful user interface capabilities will be provided to HTML (e.g. see http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/x-futhtml1/index.html?ca=?drs- ). And maybe some sort of "compiled Javascript" will appear, to improve network performance and helping to write proprietary interfaces.

    After all this, for me, the article, more than showing a Web 2.0 example, is showing just an example of a web services client. The second title sounds far less compelling, but I think it is closer to reality.
  3. I have to say that I've become fairly impressed with WebStart, but feel that without a 'framework' for client/server communication (possibly RDF), that it's generally unappealing to traditional Web developers.

    As for the link to IBM's site, I've been playing around with SVG/canvas capabilities, but it introduces a disconnect (again) from the standpoint of what an application 'is'. I'd be more inclined to see XAML or XUL take off or standardized between MS and Mozilla.

    In any case, even technologies like JSF can still be a suitable framework for delivering components to other restful-mediums like XAML or XUL (example, XUL Faces).

    Overall, there is a lot of merit to what Vic (consistently) introduces, but without an XML-based view definition solution for Swing and a standard/single method, it's hard to gain general interest among mediocre developers.
  4. I have to say that I've become fairly impressed with WebStart, but feel that without a 'framework' for client/server communication (possibly RDF), that it's generally unappealing to traditional Web developers.

    We've built just such a framework in Cayenne:

    http://objectstyle.org/confluence/display/CAY/Remote+Object+Persistence
    http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/

    It basically gives your Java client the same exact persistent object API that Cayenne ORM uses on the server. So you can partition your logic between the server app tier and a Swing/SWT (or any other) client. Besides Cayenne takes care of the client caching to avoid too many web service calls. This stuff is pretty new, so the docs are lacking (and examples have to be checked out from CVS, doh!), but the underlying framework is pretty stable in the last Cayenne milestones.
  5. It is puzzling that Java is considered as more powerful in the desktop than in the server, since reality is otherwise.

    No, the reality is that Java is used more on the server than on the desktop. This has nothing to do with its power in those areas.
    Java has always been an utterly failure when coming to client-side applications, and it will remain to be so as long as 90% of the workstations of the world do not come with a JVM preinstalled - namely, until Windows does not come with a JVM again. And since MS has bet its future on .Net, it will be hardly so.- The whole point of the web, HTML, XML, web services, SOA et al is that it must be platform agnostic.

    It is hardly a failure - Swing is now more widely used for client-side applications than WinForms.

    http://weblogs.java.net/blog/hansmuller/archive/2005/10/official_swing.html

    Client-side Java is platform agnostic.
    After all this, for me, the article, more than showing a Web 2.0 example, is showing just an example of a web services client. The second title sounds far less compelling, but I think it is closer to reality.

    I agree with you, as one of the main aspects of Web 2.0 (as I understand it) is that it is browser based. Quoting from Wikipedia's (a Web 2.0 example!) definition:

    "Non-standard browser plugins and enhancements are generally eschewed."

    Rich client applications like this may be useful, but they seem definitely against the spirit of the vague term 'Web 2.0', and just adding a '0.01' does not help.
  6. the reality is that Java is used more on the server than on the desktop.

    As per Sun's Romain Guy slide show, there are more Swing, read ehre:
    http://mediacast.sun.com/share/alexismp/SunDesktopJavaSwingParis16dec2005.pdf
    (I wish GroupLayout was part of v6 to copete w/ C# docking)

    If it takes you 6 months to deploy an app, are you realy going to put out a DHTML into a broadband world.
    There are many widley used PHP server side apps and people like Ruby, Groovy, etc. on the server side vs JEE. (Even portlets are not a part of v5) That is all behind us, history.

    Take a look and join goowy.com or LaszloMail for future of clients, started by Ajax. What is next?
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/smartclient/understanding/definition/default.aspx ?
    ... or pointcast.com, back to the future or client/server?

    Once senetece summary of article: Ajax leads to Flash which leasds to SmartClient such as Network Laucher (Part of JDK 5.06+, work on apple), w/o Java Clients, no need for Java Services, no thanks to EG.

    .V
  7. This is pointless characterization of obvious and inane developments in the industry. I feel this article did not enrich my being. I guess exposure to mental drool is a penalty one has to pay for reading material in a Wiki world.
  8. This is pointless characterization of obvious and inane developments in the industry. I feel this article did not enrich my being. I guess exposure to mental drool is a penalty one has to pay for reading material in a Wiki world.


    +1
    Many veterans suspect that Ajax/DHTML is going to fade away.
    Very "insightful" (yes, I am being ironic)
  9. trolls[ Go to top ]

    For the trolls, here is a book I donated to ASF license that you can troll as well, no effort:
    http://wiki.apache.org/struts/StrutsBook if you think I don’t think I put in effort.

    And another example:
    Click: http://netbeans.roomity.com , it brings a custom version (works similar to http://xbox360.1up.com another one of my public sites )
    And let me add that version 2.0 of PointCast will allow for offline viewing of your favorite communities and more media devices support. Today we process 40,000 messages per day, going 10X soon.
    :-P

    Cedric, I think the main problem w/ Swing was the “scary” screen and deployment issues. The synth look and feel is fine, it just has to look good, not the old ugly look and feel.

    What do people think of LaszloMail vs Goowy (Flex) mail?

    .V
  10. Java has always been an utterly failure when coming to client-side applications, and it will remain to be so as long as 90% of the workstations of the world do not come with a JVM preinstalled
    I don't think this is the main factor.

    The main reason why Java has failed on the desktop so far is because it has never provided enough hooks into the native platforms and that Swing never adopted the native look and feel of its host platform until very recently (and even now, it does so poorly).

    Since RCP/SWT/JFace addresses all these problems, it's hardly surprising to see it making inroads on the desktop where Swing never could.

    --
    Cedric
  11. The main reason why Java has failed on the desktop so far [..] it's hardly surprising to see it making inroads on the desktop where Swing never could.-- Cedric

    Sorry to repeat what I have already posted here, but what you are saying does not seem to agree with Hans Muller's Blog

    http://weblogs.java.net/blog/hansmuller/archive/2005/10/official_swing.html

    "no lesser authority than Evans Data Corporation has reported that Swing is the dominant GUI Toolkit for Northern American developers"

    Even this is somewhat innaccurate, it implies that "Java has failed on the desktop" may be one of those myths everyone keeps repeating while using popular applications like Azureus (Ok, not Swing, but still Desktop), Moneydance, Oxygen etc...

    Searching Dice suggests that Java Swing development is about as much in demand as Python, and about 2/3 as much in demand as PHP. This may be a recent development, but suggests that far from failing on the desktop, Java client application development has a significant presence.
  12. Sorry to repeat what I have already posted here, but what you are saying does not seem to agree with Hans Muller's Bloghttp://weblogs.java.net/blog/hansmuller/archive/2005/10/official_swing.html"no lesser authority than Evans Data Corporation has reported that Swing is the dominant GUI Toolkit for Northern American developers
    Forgive my skepticism, but it's a bit hard to believe a blog post by a Swing engineer citing a survey without giving any link to it...

    But maybe you can point us to it? I would certainly like to take a look at it (if only to ascertain that it wasn't ordered by Sun :-))

    --
    Cedric
  13. Forgive my skepticism, but it's a bit hard to believe a blog post by a Swing engineer citing a survey without giving any link to it...But maybe you can point us to it?


    http://www.evansdata.com/n2/surveys/northamerican_toc_05_2.shtml

    But you will need to purchase it!
    I would certainly like to take a look at it (if only to ascertain that it wasn't ordered by Sun :-))-- Cedric

    But, as I posted, you don't even need to read this survey - check for yourself. The Swing/Java client side jobs are out there. I certainly would not trust a single blog entry. Here are some more figures that anyone can check:

    On the Freshmeat software site nearly 1 in 10 Java projects are Swing. (There may be more client side projects - I am just doing a keyword search).

    On monster.com there are nearly as many Swing jobs as Python jobs, and many times more than WinForms jobs.
  14. What's the point of kicking a dead horse by lumping in Swing with Web 2.0 or any other version of "Web"?

    <quote>- Flash is indeed a fine thing, powerful and appealing. Only, since it is proprietary, I find it difficult for it to be the "face" of Web 2.0 . Also, usually you need to pay to create Flash content (yeah, I know OpenLaszlo, but the vast majority of Flash out there is built with the Flash designer, plus a little with Flex). These two things would have to change for Flash to become this face, but also it would have to prove to be, or evolve into, a platform solid enough for professional application development. Also, given the intertia, I find it very difficult to switch away from HTML.

    First off, most people don't care if Flash is proprietary or not. The great thing about Flash is the 98% market penetration of Flash 6 and above. Take a look at Flex 2 and Flex 2 builder (Zorn - an Eclipse plugin) for a real RIA framework. Or take a look at http://www.osflash.org to see what's going on in the open source flash world. Most people won't realize the importance of Flash until Avalon/XAML is released on Vista and XP.

    <quote>AJAX is mainly a frenzy that will pass (along with all of its usually unnamed varieties like just JAX or JSON). But Javascript + DHTML will stay as a popular method to create RiAs because it fulfills the main requisites that any Web x.x client platform must have.</quote>

    Wait a minute. So Javascript + HTML will stick around, but somehow XMLHttpRequest is gone from the equation? AJAX is just a term.

    <quote>From between the two camps of dynamic typed (scripting) languages / strongly typed languages, I rather fall in the second one,</quote>

    Python and Ruby are strongly typed, you must have meant statically typed.

    and thus I do not consider Javascript as a proper platform for creating professional robust applications.

    ActionScript 3.0 will be strongly and statically typed (for the most part) to go along with the new JIT VM.

    That said, I agree that browser will be even more prominent in application deployment, and that Flash isn't the final solution. But neither is the current DHTML that is very limiting for RIAs and is a complete mess for applications developers without a proper crossbrowser framework.

    The problem I see is that browser standards or better yet features that are standard among the major players don't advance enough to be able to do real RIAs.
  15. demise of Ajax...[ Go to top ]

    ...that will be the headline, but not for a few years.

    We need to make a distinction between the passing of a technology versus the passing of the frenzy over a technology.

    With Ajax the frenzy will pass, like it does for all technologies, but the technology will continue to be used (for awhile anyway). The actual usage will grow, contract slightly as people learn the hard way where it should not be used, and then stabilize over the next few years.

    Don Morgan, Founder
    http://www.DeveloperAdvantage.com
    Audio Training for Software Developers
  16. Amazing Conclusion[ Go to top ]

    LimeWire, Azuareus and Roomity have a combined 30 million users using Java technology with internet services.

    Nice way to make your puppy look like a widely used application.
  17. Ajax / DHTML will fade away???[ Go to top ]

    From Vic's article:
    Many veterans suspect that Ajax/DHTML is going to fade away.

    I agree with the "veterans" on this, but I am curious about who these people Vic is referencing are. I have read very little that takes an honest look at DHTML / Ajax and sees a very week platform to build Web 2.whatever on top of. If anyone has blogs or articles by veterans that support what Vic is suggesting, please post links to them.

    Thanks.

    -James
  18. Ajax / DHTML will fade away???[ Go to top ]

    From article:
    Many veterans suspect that Ajax/DHTML is going to fade away.
    I agree with the "veterans" on this, but I am curious about who these people are.

    http://blogs.tedneward.com/2006/01/01/2006+Tech+Predictions.aspx

    .V
  19. This is why something as lousy as PHP ever got even a chance to stand up for Java.

    JSF, Portlets Spec, blah, blah, blah...

    Ajax is here to stay and the thin client is getting even thinner (with standards-based, more light-weight XHTML), not thicker in Web 2.0.

    I do not know what Web 2.01 is and the way it was described in that article, no offense but, I do not even want to know.

    Get real for God's sake or you will have to buy a Ruby book.

    Grrr...
  20. Irakli, good idea. Just bought the Ruby/Rails books at pragmaticprogrammers.com.
    Excellent suggestion... thanks !
    :D
  21. Irakli, good idea. Just bought the Ruby/Rails books at pragmaticprogrammers.com.Excellent suggestion... thanks !:D
    Loved it, too :-)

    LOL

    cheers
  22. Apples and oranges.[ Go to top ]

    DHTML/Ajax runs only in a browser, and the weaknesses are well-known: the difficulty of obfuscating or otherwise protecting the implementation details of the interface, security issues, injection of parasitic content, maintainability, and scalability. Many experienced developers are dogged by the persistant feeling that AJAX may be just a fad.
    Internet had started on idea of hyperdocuments and links. Web applications are different things. Having accessible structured content, possibly in XML and processed with XSLT, formatted and stylized with CSS is orthogonal to having a desktop application linked to a bunch of other applications via standard protocol (and it does not have to be XML over HTTP). Lotus Elise vs. bigfoot truck, choose yer poison.
  23. Apples and oranges.[ Go to top ]

    DHTML/Ajax runs only in a browser, and the weaknesses are well-known: the difficulty of obfuscating or otherwise protecting the implementation details of the interface, security issues, injection of parasitic content, maintainability, and scalability. Many experienced developers are dogged by the persistant feeling that AJAX may be just a fad.
    Internet had started on idea of hyperdocuments and links. Web applications are different things. Having accessible structured content, possibly in XML and processed with XSLT, formatted and stylized with CSS is orthogonal to having a desktop application linked to a bunch of other applications via standard protocol (and it does not have to be XML over HTTP). Lotus Elise vs. bigfoot truck, choose yer poison.


    heh. http://www.meebo.com/
    Need more examples of what can be done by a capable person?

    I really think, most of the complaints about Ajax is because people are too lazy to adopt. Sorry for honesty.

    As for the big track/Lotus comparision, I actually like Aston Martin better, but I hope you meant fat clients like described in that article is the minivan, right? ;)
  24. Which is a Porshe?[ Go to top ]

    So if one looks at a Ajax app like Google vs LaszloMail, which is the Porshe?

    Drug dealers give you a first hit for free:
    http://www.aflax.org/#demos
    then http://www.javalobby.org/articles/ajax-ria-overview

    *Ajax is a great 1st step*, separate the ui from service and get a bit of RiA. Then we begin.
    RiA is about 1uping! Right now we are at if they do partial Ajax, we will do full Ajax.

    .V
  25. Which is a Porshe?[ Go to top ]

    So if one looks at a Ajax app like Google vs LaszloMail, which is the Porshe? Drug dealers give you a first hit for free:http://www.aflax.org/#demos
    Real-time Chat Demo => Nothing special, easily made with Ajax
    Client-side XML Graphics Demo => Can be done with SVG
    Dynamic Font Loading Demo => What for? What about saving the bandwidth? Client fonts can be changed with CSS switching. On the other hand, try to enlarge/reduce font in the browser, the font size is this Flash demo is not changed. Sucks.
    Cross-browser, unlimited local storage Demo => This is a good thing. And a backdoor for trojan horses.
    Drawing Gradients Demo => No point for business app.
    Animated Chart with Tooltips => Easily done with client Javascript.

    All in all, either useless irritating junk, or can be done with client Javascript.
  26. Apples and oranges.[ Go to top ]

    I really think, most of the complaints about Ajax is because people are too lazy to adopt. Sorry for honesty.

    If people are too lazy to adopt, then is AJAX for other animal kingdom? I mean, if implementing with new stuff is too hard or time-consuming (compared to old ways), people DO get lazy.

    I'm not saying that AJAX developments tools/frameworks couldn't get better or even satisfying to code with. But while waiting, check out Swing. After some AJAX coding, Swing isn't that hard ;)
  27. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Tomi, Swing is dead as some all-purpose, totally accessible framework. Well, what I really mean is that client Java is dead. That's just fact and I know many people don't want to accept it, but deal.

    Java is Java. It's ubiquotious on the server, but on the client it's time to move on...at least with Java the language. If you want RIA with big presence look at Flash or hack your way through the maze of DHTML
  28. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    I was not too serious when trying to promote Swing. I know that one post won't change your AJAX-propagated minds :)

    Anyway, Swing+WebStart is very much alive in my current customer, so at least in our case you are totally wrong. Use Flash, AJAX or whatever fits best for you, but don't bury value of the Swing for us, who are using it successfully in production.
  29. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Well, what I really mean is that client Java is dead. That's just fact and I know many people don't want to accept it, but deal.

    It certainly isn't a fact. Read through this thread. I have provided evidence that client Java is very much alive (this even surprised me, as I hear so many writing it off).
  30. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Well, what I really mean is that client Java is dead. That's just fact and I know many people don't want to accept it, but deal.
    It certainly isn't a fact. Read through this thread. I have provided evidence that client Java is very much alive (this even surprised me, as I hear so many writing it off).
    Swing is dead? That's a strech. I don't want web applications or "client-server" applications (were not most of them replaced by webapps? Not all but most) be written on Swing+Webstart, BUT...

    Hey, I do not want my sweet, beloved IntelliJ IDE to be running AJAX! No way.... Neither do I want it to be native code or Python or any b...sh.. like that.

    Swing is not dead and SWT aint that good, either, by the way.
  31. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    (were not most of them replaced by webapps? Not all but most)
    No, they were not. Many apps that were replaced with webapps should not have been. I believe there is room and need for each type. Web Started apps have their place and usage.

    One thing people need to keep in mind when developing Web Apps is the future of the browser. Since Microsoft [currently] controls the majority of browsers, check out what they are doing and saying.
  32. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    (were not most of them replaced by webapps? Not all but most)
    No, they were not. Many apps that were replaced with webapps should not have been. I believe there is room and need for each type. Web Started apps have their place and usage.One thing people need to keep in mind when developing Web Apps is the future of the browser.
    There is room for web-started applications, too. That is exactly what I wanted to underline by saying "not all", but I stil think it is correct absolute majority to be web-based. Hint: web-started applications have issues with mobility.
    <Since Microsoft [currently] controls the majority of browsers, check out what they are doing and saying.
    I am sorry but Microsoft never had a vision about nothing. All they can is just steal post-factum. So, it's just not serious to speak of them as visionaries.
  33. Swing is NOT dead[ Go to top ]

    Microsoft never had a vision

    Microsoft vision is SmartClient, using Managed code, so that people can download "safe" managed code from the web just like they now download HTML. Nice vision!

    Michael Jouravlev, can you please run LaszloMail and comment (like you did on Ajax/Flash).

    tia,
    .V
  34. Swing is NOT dead[ Go to top ]

    Nice vision!Michael Jouravlev, can you please run LaszloMail and comment (like you did on Ajax/Flash).tia,.V
    One of my email providers has a Lazlo interface. I still use the html one because the other took too long to load. I just want to quickly check that, wack the spam and get out. And honestly, gmail seems slow for that too.
  35. Laszlo Mail[ Go to top ]

    Michael Jouravlev, can you please run LaszloMail and comment (like you did on Ajax/Flash).tia,.V
    By popular request, here is my review after 10 minutes of using Laszlo Mail. Let's start from the start, the sign in window. What do we see? Something looking like a headerless window on the back, and something looking like a dialog window on the front. Is it possible to move any of these windows? No, it is just a picture. Is it possible to change font size? No, it is just a picture. Is it possible for these "windows" to have the same color/lnf as other dialog windows in my system? No, it is a freaking picture! Why the picture tries to look like a window???

    I click a tiny button "Register Now" and I see that picture resizes and changes content. So is it a picture or a window, and if it is a window why the hell I cannot drag it???

    Registration process. This is just makes me mad. They had time to create these stupid animation effects, at the same time displaying only one error message at a time. Want to see how this can be done better? Here you are: http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2005/10/05/form/form4.htm

    Main screen. Ok, I admit that considering a totally unappropriate engine it is built on, which is Flash Player, the app looks more or less bearable. But as a user I don't want to care about inner workings of this thing! It is slow. Still slow. With all improvements Laszlo guys made, and with improvements in Flash 8 it is still slower than Windows 3.1 running on 386DX/40 with 4Megs of RAM. Well, it is faster than Windows 3.1 running in standard mode on AT286/12 with 3 Megs of RAM. Whoa, and they say that computers are not improving.

    The shape of controls and the colors are different from my Win2K. Font size is small and it cannot be resized neither using browser functions nor from the menu. This is just plain awful.

    Keyboard support is horrible, there is no sense of tab groups whatsoever, MS Windows key mappings are not honored. The latter thing should be easy, detecting useragent type, version and OS is a standard task than any webapp was doing 5 years ago. Instead, my OS settings are not taking into account at all.

    Tab key support is a joke. Put caret into search field using the mouse, good. Now click Shift+Tab, the visual guiding thing ("corners") move to Mail/Contacts tabs, around *both* of them! Then the corners disappear and you don't know what element is focused! Now try Ctrl+Tab to move from one tab to another, no dice, the search field is focused back instead. Oh, I got it: instead of Ctrl+Tab one has to use arrow key. Using it, another tab is highlighted, but tab panels are not switched (remember, I have to *know* that Mail tab was selected at the first place). Now hit space, only then the panel is swiched. Brilliant.

    If you switch from Laszlo Mail to another application and then switch back, the focus is lost, forever. Nothing can bring it back except using the mouse.

    Now we are on "Contacts" panel. Hit Tab key several times and select Details button. You might notice that notion of tab order is not known to Laszlo Mail creators, you get BCC, CC, To and finally Details focused in order. Hit space on Details, the helper window will be opened with corresponded data and other stuff using weird style dialog box (I hate this style). Now try to close this window. Of course, Ctrl+F4 does not work, and the tiny [x] button cannot be focused using keyboard. You stuck again.

    Try to open browser window in full-screen mode. Hit F11, does not work. Nice. Isn't it supposed to work in full-screen mode to hide the browser's window borders?

    Ugh, tired. Don't get me wrong, this stuff looks nice for what it was built with. But I don't want a moving picture inside my browser window that pretends to be another window. If I want desktop app features I would use desktop app or JDNC app for that matter. If browser interface is enough for me I would use GMail. Flex/Laszlo is just in the middle, on no man's land. It tries to look and behave like desktop app, while in fact it is less usable than browser-based app. Desktop apps can print and have print settings, while webapps can set printer CSS. This one does not have preview mode at all. What's the point? I don't even want to get started on windowing engine within windowing engine, this is totally wet (as opposed to DRY).

    On contrary, GMail has hot keys, it is fast, its fonts are resizable, print preview is not as good as it could be, but at least I *can* preview my email, and I can use "Print" link (I'd prefer print media CSS), it does not try to display jumping dialogs or fade-out effects. It just works.
  36. Laszlo Mail[ Go to top ]

    Thank you Michael Jouravlev, for your insightsfull post. You clearly show that you - are capable of indepently thinking.

    However I still thinks that Javascript+DHTML + Flash is the way to go. But it has to be done in a competent way, some things the authors of LaszloMail forgot,
     
    1) Pleasant design. If there is anything that the current web-designers are good at it is pure beauty. It doesn’t do with some old windows-1995 retro look.
    2) For the second, when you use Flash, you should not let one big mega Flash-movie take over the whole page. You should only make Flash building blocks, invisible - transparent to the user. Flash MX 2004 with classes and inheritance and the script in separate files, communication between swf "movies" and between Javascript and Actionscript gives a lot of possibilities.
    3) Another reason Flash is "in" is Video. Streaming is messy business, on the lowest level you need at least 3 servers, one each for Windows Media, Realplayer och QuickTime. Flash’s little innovation "Progressive Downloads" simplify streaming enormously. All mayor newspaper in my home country has changes to Flash (as has CNN).

    No need to use Flex or expensive server software. A simple REST server (in PHP?) will replace the old "insert your brand here" server.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  37. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    There is room for web-started applications, too. That is exactly what I wanted to underline by saying "not all", but I stil think it is correct absolute majority to be web-based. Hint: web-started applications have issues with mobility.

    Oh, agree they will be web based. Just not Browser bound. Not sure what you exactly mean by mobility. If you mean "phone apps" - I quit using my phone for the web except for minimal stuff. So, if and app needs something more than the browser can provide, then it won't run on the phone anyway.
    I am sorry but Microsoft never had a vision about nothing. All they can is just steal post-factum. So, it's just not serious to speak of them as visionaries.
    It is not about vision or even the best. It is about direction and control. Having all apps in the browser takes power, etc away from Microsoft. So guess what will have to happen.

    Another observation (not in response to this post) but it is funny how people here are saying that Java failed on the client because it didn't integrate with the desktop or look native. But others are saying most apps should be [Browser] Web apps - things that don't integrate with the desktop or look native. And what "failed" in the web arena? ActiveX - things that integrate with the desktop and look native.
  38. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Having all apps in the browser takes power, etc away from Microsoft. So guess what will have to happen.
    Google will burry Microsoft and Apple will come by with its new, awesome Intel-based, virus and crap-free computers to pick up the market.

    If you want to know what's coming don't look at the company that has no vision and clue (Microsoft) look at the company of the present and future - Google.

    Google did not use Flash, it decided to go with Ajax and did a very good job implementing stable, cross-browser, functional Ajax apps.

    Now - you tell me, what's the conclusion of all these.
  39. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Having all apps in the browser takes power, etc away from Microsoft. So guess what will have to happen.
    Google will burry Microsoft and Apple will come by with its new, awesome Intel-based, virus and crap-free computers to pick up the market. If you want to know what's coming don't look at the company that has no vision and clue (Microsoft) look at the company of the present and future - Google.Google did not use Flash, it decided to go with Ajax and did a very good job implementing stable, cross-browser, functional Ajax apps.Now - you tell me, what's the conclusion of all these.

    I am totally with you. Google will eat microsoft for breakfast in the near future. The ultimate example of microsofts vision is the phrase "640kb is enough". It is not that i am religious about it and google has evilness too but at least they seem to care about user experience. Microsoft is a very very conservative company with no inovation whatsoever. OSX just rocks. Gmail is a breeze to use compared to any desktop app out there. I dont believe in non browser RIA. Customers want browsers. Who got the idea that customers want complicated widgets?
  40. Much Ado ...[ Go to top ]

    Who got the idea that customers want complicated widgets?

    ZING !

    To this man goes the cigar of the day, despite his hallucinations about Google.

    That is exactly on point. So many AJAX tinkerers have been spouting so much about how 'unusable' or 'hard to use' the current Web is ... some of these people keep telling us that users 'aren't willing to wait while a page loads' ... but all that is laughable nonsense. Web browsers are the most used software tool of all time ! - obviously people are quite happy with their capabilities. The push for 'Rich Ixxx Applications' is not coming from users, who generally want something as simple as possible to get the job done, but from developers who are inventing 'needs' to get fun work providing a solution to a problem that does not exist ... which is nothing new.

    By the way, why does anyone think that AJAX provides an RIA experience ? The restriction to HTML widgets is what defines the experience, not the background processing hoo-hah, of which the customer is not aware (and could not care less about).

    Not to say that a better Web interface could not be developed, nor to argue that people could not be persuaded to accept it. The former is reasonable and the latter, while significantly less likely, is possible. But there is no crisis and no rush to get there from the user's point of view.


    RE: Swing -

    I don't know why Swing entered into this at all, but oddly enough I am working on a Swing app now. It's a GUI client for a server in a security system. When a device triggers, dozens of Swing GUI clients on several floors of a building will show an alarm within one second on maps showing the staff exactly where it is happening. Of course Swing is too slow for real apps, as we all know ;-)

    Our client deliberately moved away from Microsoft after being forced to rewrite apps due to operating system changes once too often. I think that's going to happen more frequently as the customer manager base gets more comfortable with the idea of considering open source.
  41. Much Ado ...[ Go to top ]

    RE: Swing -I don't know why Swing entered into this at all,

    It entered into this because the example of a so-called 'Web 2.01' application in the article was a Swing application.
  42. OK[ Go to top ]

    RE: Swing -I don't know why Swing entered into this at all,
    It entered into this because the example of a so-called 'Web 2.01' application in the article was a Swing application.

    I guess so, Steve, but my understanding was that Vik intended all that as an example for discussion rather than a specific suggestion to use Swing. Maybe I was wrong about that ... which often happens ;-)
  43. OK[ Go to top ]

    I guess so, Steve, but my understanding was that Vik intended all that as an example for discussion rather than a specific suggestion to use Swing. Maybe I was wrong about that ... which often happens ;-)

    Personally, I get lost as soon as 'Web 2.0' is mentioned :)
  44. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    The ultimate example of microsofts vision is the phrase "640kb is enough".
    Bill Gates never said that, it's a myth.
     It is not that i am religious
    Actually, you sound quite religious to me...
    Microsoft is a very very conservative company with no inovation whatsoever.
    That's just plain nonsense, just as much as saying that Apple is the most innovative company.

    Take a look at Office 12 in general, and Jensen Harris' fascinating blog if you need some convincing.

    The world is a little more complicated than you think.

    --
    Cedric
  45. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Bill Gates never said that,

    would you admit it if you have said it?
    &nbsp;It is not that i am religious

    Actually, you sound quite religious to me...

    quite religious? Give me a break man and don't quote me like that. I said that I am not religious ABOUT it. I used to have that but
    since I realized that Bill saves more people than I do I lost that.
    That's just plain nonsense, just as much as saying that Apple is the most innovative
    company.

    Ever used OSX?
    The world is a little more complicated than you think.

    Thanks for the lesson I really apriciate that.
  46. 640k[ Go to top ]

    640k...Bill Gates never said that

    No, it was worse. He actually DID it.

    Something he did say (that you can verify yourself by buying BG's book is:

    "The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers."

    ...but everyone says or does something stupid once in a while. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Clinton
  47. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Ever used OSX?

    Yes, as well as plenty of other operating systems over these past twenty years, and there are as many innovative things in OS X as there are in Windows. Companies keep stealing and improving on each other's ideas, that's just how it works.

    --
    Cedric
  48. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Ever used OSX?
    Yes, as well as plenty of other operating systems over these past twenty years, and there are as many innovative things in OS X as there are in Windows. Companies keep stealing and improving on each other's ideas, that's just how it works.-- Cedric

    I am forced to us OSX often and I was not happy with it in the beginning but after a while I really started to notice the difference. On windows programs often hang but on OSX everything runs smoother without hick ups. It looks better although that is just taste. The spotlight function finds files in a split second, on windows that takes ages. It is Unix with a decent GUI, how can you possibly consider that equally innovative?
  49. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    how can [he] possibly consider [Mac OS X and Windows] equally innovative?
    He, and others on the "dark side" can because they chose to be blind.

    They tell you they have used Mac OS X... yeah, for an hour or so. Maybe played during a boring evening with a friend's 5 years old eMac. It's obvious that these people have never useda Mac. Having used means you have worked on it, was your primary computer for a significant time. Having fooled around with does not count, sorry.

    There is no point arguing. You can bring the whole history of Macintosh and Windows and put it right in front of their eyes. You can bring facts (which there are plenty of) - they won't listen. Because they chose to be blind and deaf.

    I actually am very understanding. Hey, I was a Windows guy, once. Most of us were. Maybe they will get it, too - some day.

    But, what is sad is this attitude of "ah, everybody steals". Oh, yeah? Really? You wish!!!

    Not everybody steals. Maybe he steals, maybe Microsoft does but there are more than enough of people who THINK and CREATE. I know it is hard to believe for such people (pro-stealing) but just think about it - if everybody was just stealing, nothing new would be created. Anybody brave enough to say nothing new is ever being created?

    WTF, c'mon now.
  50. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    if everybody was just stealing, nothing new would be created. Anybody brave enough to say nothing new is ever being created?WTF, c'mon now.
    You obviously chose to not read what I wrote, which was "steal and improve". That's how the world works, and Apple is not exempt (Konfabulator anyone? Now that was really classy).

    As for Microsoft innovating, I don't know, how about flat toolbar buttons introduced by IE and then copied everywhere? How about scrollbar thumbs indicating the page or part of the document they are set on as you scroll?

    And again, go read the Office 12 blog (Jensen Harris) where all these UI innovations are dissected and explained in plain sight for all to see. Really fascinating read. I'm betting they will be in the next version of MacOS.

    That's just to name a few off the top of my head.

    I don't want to turn this into a contest because, again, my point is that nobody is better than the others, but the superior attitude of MacOS users is, frankly, tiresome.
      
    Reminds me of my Amiga days fifteen years ago :-)

    --
    Cedric
  51. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    the superior attitude of MacOS users is, frankly, tiresome.

    Take a hike man, you are so annoyed by that because you have a superior attitude yourself and see that reflected in others. 1st grade psychology.
  52. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Having all apps in the browser takes power, etc away from Microsoft. So guess what will have to happen.
    Google will burry Microsoft and Apple will come by with its new, awesome Intel-based, virus and crap-free computers to pick up the market. If you want to know what's coming don't look at the company that has no vision and clue (Microsoft) look at the company of the present and future - Google.Google did not use Flash, it decided to go with Ajax and did a very good job implementing stable, cross-browser, functional Ajax apps.Now - you tell me, what's the conclusion of all these.

    I would love for this to be true. But it isn't currently reality and probably won't be soon. I am not looking at Micorsoft being the leader but the driver. So the more apps I do in Java, the more I protect my self from their decisions.
  53. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Another observation (not in response to this post) but it is funny how people here are saying that Java failed on the client because it didn't integrate with the desktop or look native. But others are saying most apps should be [Browser] Web apps - things that don't integrate with the desktop or look native. And what "failed" in the web arena? ActiveX - things that integrate with the desktop and look native.
    Webapps don't pretend to be like desktop apps. Instead, they pretend to be just web pages with some forms here and there. Users buy that, especially because webapps share other features of hyperdocuments like links, size/color/font control, printing of any page, styles, etc. On contrary, Laszlo/Flex apps try to look like real apps, creating a duplicate windowing system in a browser window, which is not only reduntant, but is plain ugly.
    One of my email providers has a Lazlo interface. I still use the html one because the other took too long to load. I just want to quickly check that, wack the spam and get out. And honestly, gmail seems slow for that too.
    A have a different experience. Gmail seems quite responsive for me, even on slow connection, where it can download new messages in timely manner, pulling only messages themselves without banners and other junk. I just love GMail.
    Google will eat microsoft for breakfast in the near future. The ultimate example of microsofts vision is the phrase "640kb is enough". It is not that i am religious about it and google has evilness too but at least they seem to care about user experience. Microsoft is a very very conservative company with no inovation whatsoever.
    I love GMail, I did not get onto WinXP because did not see the point, as well as I am skeptical now about Vista, but calling Microsoft a company with no vision is just not knowing the subject.

    By the way, "640kb is enough" tagline is long gone. Since then MS did not care much about requirements for new version of its OS, considering that hardware would make it up quickly and cheap. And they always were right. Ten or so years ago I bought 8 Megs for my Windows machine for $150 per 4Meg module. Right now a basic PC has 512 megs in it, that costs less than a $100.

    You should have known the limitations of architecture that MS was constrained with, then you would have appreciated Windows 3.1 Extended mode and other stuff like Win32s. Creating these things was quite inventive.

    I don't like bloat in late MS creations, and I still use good old Win2K. Still, I don't know what is better: to create a brilliant OS kernel with geeky interface and awful overall hardware compatibility and to bury it with the hands of their own managers (OS/2), or to create a reasonably good product and have a marketing department that does not miss a hit.
  54. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    It certainly isn't a fact. Read through this thread. I have provided evidence that client Java is very much alive (this even surprised me, as I hear so many writing it off).
    Swing for consumer desktop applications is certainly dead. Try to name more than three swing consumer desktop application used by non-technical people? It's very much alive for technical and corporate desktop applications and I can certainly believe that it could even lead the pack there.
  55. Swing is NOT dead[ Go to top ]

    Try to name more than three swing consumer desktop application used by non-technical people?

    Client Side Java based apps are:
    OpenOffice, LimeWire (napster), Azarus (bittorent movies).

    Google reminds me a lot of Enron, when Enron tried to sell Water and Weather. Of course, Google uses Python on their servers.
    It's a slipery slope, looks like some of you decided to go down w/ the HTML ship. Bye bye webmasters, you will realy be pissed about no more pop ups.

    We are back to client/server UI, and you can complain all you want, except now it's easy to deploy distributed w/ ClickOnce (Over 90% of desktops are Windows, and most developers here develop on it!) and Network Launcher. Ex: MS Office Live, online:
    http://www.microsoft.com/office/officelive/default.mspx
    .NET is about managed safe code loading from anywhere.
    LaszloMail, Office Live and iTunes are the poster child of the new Web Applciations.

    I wrote 1st book on Struts in '01 - 18 months ahead of anyone - when very few people were using it, and Struts became #1, when people were talking about Enydra and Torqe.
    Therefore:

    "Hear me now, listen to me later"!!


    .V
  56. Swing is NOT dead[ Go to top ]

    Client Side Java based apps are:OpenOffice, LimeWire (napster), Azarus (bittorent movies).
    Nice try but OpenOffice is not a Java application - it uses a few Java tools but can run perfectly well without Java installed. Try again.
  57. Swing is NOT dead[ Go to top ]

    "Google reminds me a lot of Enron, when Enron tried to sell Water and Weather. Of course, Google uses Python on their servers.""

    Actually you are wrong. Google uses more Java then Python. :)


    "...NET is about managed safe code loading from anywhere."

    You meant every windows machine with the corret .Net framework i assume..
  58. Swing is NOT dead[ Go to top ]

    I wrote 1st book on Struts in '01 - 18 months ahead of anyone - when very few people were using it, and Struts became #1, when people were talking about Enydra and Torqe.

    Therefore:"Hear me now, listen to me later"!!.V

    Dude, you REALLY need to chill out :) The ego is gonna kill ya.

    P.S. I would not be too proud for "visioning" Struts, by the way. Granted, it took the marketplace by storm, but just like a storm - it lasted very short.

    I hope you have noticed that Struts is a history right now.

    Struts got outdated sooner than most applications using it were ever completed. A true joke of technologies.

    LOL, need more comments on that?
  59. Yeah.. we all know you're realy a visionary, with 20+ years of experience and that 'hopes that it (roomit) becomes
    a popular site, so I (Vic) can get out of the consulting
    "rat race"'(sic), but your book was the first one because you certainly skipped the review phase... there are lots of typos, the writing style is horrible and I don't know how you managed to include content about requirements gathering, project management and CMM in a struts book... your book sucks so much that I couldn't find a struts book on amazon with less starts than yours (2).

    I only hear you know but I will listen to you in the day you launch VicPod, VicMail and why not VicEarth.

    Hope this reality check helps.

    Leonardo
  60. What a canabilistic frenzy.
    I don't know how you managed to include content about requirements gathering, project management and CMM in a struts book..

    Don't be a player hater. One can form an opinion for self:
    http://wiki.apache.org/struts/StrutsBook - this free download in soft copy so you can modify if you wish. Idea is to show how to have a sucessfull project in Struts, and... that sometimes takes more then tech. Just becuase I teach you Struts (or RiA) does not mean you'll deliver a project.
    hth.
    Or you can leave more anon. feedback here, Amazon or other sites, w/ out linking any of your deliveries or credits ... maybe you are not even programmers.
    Struts got outdated sooner than most applications using it were ever completed. A true joke of technologies.

    I managed to deliver 4 apps w/ 10,000 to 40,000 concurent users in Struts w/ terabytes of content. Feel free to link your urls of your projects or ... you'r just a nameless troll. I like to deliver more then vision, I hate fakers.
    If you think Struts is a joke, then I am glad it's the same person that thinks trasparently deployed RiA apps are not the "Porsche".

    btw, PointCast.com (my current project) traffic jumped by 7% in the last day. It's called PR.

    thx,

    .V
  61. Struts got outdated sooner than most applications using it were ever completed. A true joke of technologies.
    I managed to deliver 4 apps w/ 10,000 to 40,000 concurent users in Struts w/ terabytes of content. Feel free to link your urls of your projects or ... you'r just a nameless troll. I like to deliver more then vision, I hate fakers. If you think Struts is a joke, then I am glad it's the same person that thinks trasparently deployed RiA apps are not the "Porsche". btw, PointCast.com (my current project) traffic jumped by 7% in the last day. It's called PR. thx,.V

    Don't put words in my mounth. I was not the author of this comment about struts. Try to reply to the original author next time.

    Leonardo
  62. This is really poor in Java world, even C# the former “dark side” looks appeling and more evolved.

    You can advance your views on tech via your:
    -App delivered to production or sample hello world apps
    -Books or Articles
    -or at least a link to someone else work that underlines your view

    Just typing in your opinion w/ out credentials or linked back up, is that useful scientific discussion… that “enrich our being”? "this guy builds a minivan slow and does not know Struts and even if he did know Struts, Struts sucks and so does his book, and I never put a stich of code in production deployed app and I can even tell that his idea is no good".

    So deploy or write and app, or book or article, and some back up. I’d like to learn. Debate is good. On presentation authors give credentials as to why they felt that they should be heard out and some back up to their proposal. Just typing in your opinion w/ no back up links or background credits? Shame, can you advance as that? I gave example of RiA http://www.laszlomail.com/lzmail, and asked .... but that example just supports my view.


    I had a video made of the working code, linked in this article, to show you example of effort :
    http://files.roomity.com/tutorial
    You don't have to do all that ... but some effort to back up or credits.

    Example is people that wrote books like Jason, Howard, Rod or are known in OS like Clinton etc. Ex: here is my project at sf.net or here is a site that went live that ....
    Else say: I am a noob and don't understand this point ...

    Else it's how low can you go, the stupid people in large #'s. "enrich our being”, wtf.

    .V
  63. Some RiA troll ground rules[ Go to top ]

    Victor,

    With all due respect, you clearly have HUGE personality and ego problems. How about start working on that, first? Then we can think whether I should send you my resume. LOL. God!

    Next time you want to have a healthy discussion, argue with notions not "my ... is longer than yours". Very immature.
  64. Some RiA troll ground rules[ Go to top ]

    Iraki,

    did you happen to click on any hyperlinks in that last msg? A comment on it?
    I bet you'd like... LaszloMail, just afraid to click.
    or do you have a hyperlink that I should check out related to RiA or article?

    .V
    ot: as far as "ego"... I did not even ask TSS to fix the speling of my last name in the article, could care less. its substance, I am the last person.
  65. Some RiA troll ground rules[ Go to top ]

    Just typing in your opinion w/ out credentials or linked back up
    I don't know how in the world you think that your "credentials" makes you better than anyone else, however good or lame these credentials are. People will respect you and your credentials the moment you become a bit more humble.
  66. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Try to name more than three swing consumer desktop application used by non-technical people?

    MoneyDance, JMusic, LimeWire, Graffiti, Jake2, TrackNShare, Thought Mapper, Summit GroupWare, QuickCalc, Omniscope, Jaikoz, FreeMind, Barchan, BidNobble, blue, Grokker, Yahoo Site Builder, BlogBridge, WebECS, OthBase, Gallery Constructor, Senomix Timesheets, MAVA, Memoranda, DD Poker, Portfoli Gains, Option Money, Portfolio Director, LandlordMax.

    Ok - there are not 3, but 30. I can provide more, and I had to filter out lots because I am not sure what you mean by 'technical'.
  67. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Ok - there are not 3, but 30. I can provide more, and I had to filter out lots because I am not sure what you mean by 'technical'.
    Okay. How many of them do you use?
    An example of a technical desktop application using Swing is Netbeans. An example of a non-technical desktop application is something my Mom could use :)
    Compare your list with the sheer amount of consumer desktop applications written in VB and Delphi and you'll realize why Swing is nowhere close. And Java has been around as long as Delphi. Also, besides Limewire and Azarus, I've never used or even heard of the others you mentioned.
  68. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Ok - there are not 3, but 30. I can provide more, and I had to filter out lots because I am not sure what you mean by 'technical'.
    Okay. How many of them do you use?

    Several, actually. Moneydance, FreeMind and Jake. Others I use that may be too technical for your list, are JEdit and OxygenXML (and, of course, NetBeans).
    An example of a technical desktop application using Swing is Netbeans. An example of a non-technical desktop application is something my Mom could use :)

    Which is why I reduced the list to those. I don't know your mom :)
    Compare your list with the sheer amount of consumer desktop applications written in VB and Delphi and you'll realize why Swing is nowhere close.

    VB and Delphi are addressing a different market to Swing, as they often make use of windows-specific APIs. Swing is pitched as a cross-platform GUI.
    And Java has been around as long as Delphi.

    Delphi was a successor to Turbo Pascal for Windows, which was already very well-established, and that followed Turbo Pascal for DOS. There was a large developer following for that (highly successful) range of products. Swing came along some time after the release of Java, and had huge performance and memory problems for years. It has taken some time for it to become a reasonable choice. The evidence suggests it has finally started to do quite well, especially as general client-side development is declining in favour of browser-based systems.
    Also, besides Limewire and Azarus, I've never used or even heard of the others you mentioned.

    You asked for more than 3 non-technical consumer desktop applications written in Swing, and I gave you 30. If you want to 'move the goalposts' to applications you personally have heard of, then I could come back and ask you to mention 30 Delphi applications that I have heard of. I think you may find that a challenge!

    However, if someone asks for evidence, and it is then clearly provided far in excess of what you requested, it seems somewhat unfair not to concede that they may have a point.
  69. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    You asked for more than 3 non-technical consumer desktop applications written in Swing, and I gave you 30. If you want to 'move the goalposts' to applications you personally have heard of, then I could come back and ask you to mention 30 Delphi applications that I have heard of. I think you may find that a challenge!However, if someone asks for evidence, and it is then clearly provided far in excess of what you requested, it seems somewhat unfair not to concede that they may have a point.
    Oh I agree you have a point. I myself have seen a definite positive movement with client Java. But in my opinion Swing's consumer desktop application penetration is still too small to consider it to be alive and well.
    Oh and thanks for the history lesson on Delphi - I've used Turbo Pascal you know :p
  70. So, Swing is very much alive[ Go to top ]

    Oh I agree you have a point. I myself have seen a definite positive movement with client Java. But in my opinion Swing's consumer desktop application penetration is still too small to consider it to be alive and well.

    Contradiction here - if there is positive movement, it is certainly alive! Sun would not be putting so much work into it (and particularly it's compatibility with Vista) unless it had a reasonable future, and there was demand for it.

    Also, I think you are using a false measure of 'alive and well'. The vast majority of client-side applications have never been for consumer use - they have been for internal use within organisations. So, the number or popularity of individual consumer applications does not relate well to popularity of a GUI toolkit for general use by developers. After all, the majority of consumer applications are games!
    Oh and thanks for the history lesson on Delphi - I've used Turbo Pascal you know :p

    Sorry - I was trying to explain why Delphi would be so widely used - it had a 'head start'. I miss Delphi a lot, and if Kylix had taken off more and had been a better product, I might well not be using Java now.

    An interesting discussion, but perhaps we should agree to differ...
  71. An interesting discussion, but perhaps we should agree to differ...
    Agreed.
  72. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Delphi was a successor to Turbo Pascal for Windows, which was already very well-established, and that followed Turbo Pascal for DOS. There was a large developer following for that (highly successful) range of products. Swing came along some time after the release of Java, and had huge performance and memory problems for years. It has taken some time for it to become a reasonable choice.
    Nah. Swing is just harder to program and does not provide native features like drag-n-drop from native control/app to Swing. Java does not have method pointers so creating event handlers in Swing is overly complicated by interfaces. Swing does not have resource model, all is in the code. Earlier Borland's attempts to create the same two-way IDE did not work well, IDEA form designer has a concept of resources but you need to ship runtime library with it. Swing may have a nice programming/component model in theory, but it is hard to produce clean code with it (well, maybe I have to learn Swing-specific hacks). All you need in Delphi/VB is to create a form, drop a control on in and wire up an event handler, voila. The IDE will even generate the resources for you that you call access from runtime. I consider SWT a better UI for Java, though it may be somewhat obsolete concept-wise. But all this does is irrelevant to webapps and RIA ;-)
  73. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Nah. Swing is just harder to program and does not provide native features like drag-n-drop from native control/app to Swing.

    Hardly a 'show stopper'. I think this is one of those things that developer tend to think is neat, but, I suspect, most users hardly ever use. I suspect that soon Swing will have even these features, as desktop integration APIs for Java become ever more powerful.

    [...various interesting points skipped over here...]
    All you need in Delphi/VB is to create a form, drop a control on in and wire up an event handler, voila.

    That is exactly the way I work in NetBeans. I find it very simple to use. NetBeans 5 has a really 'awesome' GUI designer.
    But all this does is irrelevant to webapps and RIA ;-)

    And probably not even appropriate for a 'Server Side' site...but fun to talk about. I think things go in cycles, and sooner or later the limits of what you can do with web pages will become apparent, no matter how clever coders work with JavaScript.

    Java client side is, in my view, healthier than it has been for years.
  74. Swing is dead[ Go to top ]

    Nah. Swing is just harder to program and does not provide native features like drag-n-drop from native control/app to Swing.
    Hardly a 'show stopper'. I think this is one of those things that developer tend to think is neat, but, I suspect, most users hardly ever use. I suspect that soon Swing will have even these features, as desktop integration APIs for Java become ever more powerful.[...various interesting points skipped over here...]
    All you need in Delphi/VB is to create a form, drop a control on in and wire up an event handler, voila.
    That is exactly the way I work in NetBeans. I find it very simple to use. NetBeans 5 has a really 'awesome' GUI designer.
    But all this does is irrelevant to webapps and RIA ;-)
    And probably not even appropriate for a 'Server Side' site...but fun to talk about. I think things go in cycles, and sooner or later the limits of what you can do with web pages will become apparent, no matter how clever coders work with JavaScript.Java client side is, in my view, healthier than it has been for years.
  75. Swing is dead...... Not[ Go to top ]

    Nah. Swing is just harder to program and does not provide native features like drag-n-drop from native control/app to Swing.
    Hardly a 'show stopper'. I think this is one of those things that developer tend to think is neat, but, I suspect, most users hardly ever use. I suspect that soon Swing will have even these features, as desktop integration APIs for Java become ever more powerful.

    [Sorry for previous post]

    I am, of course, out-of-date. Swing has had drag-and-drop from native controls for some time. For example, open up an application like JEdit under Linux, and you will find you can drag and drop text freely between JEdit and both KDE and GNOME applications.
  76. Clean Swing code[ Go to top ]

    I agree that Swing can be hard to program, because developer is not forced to use a particular MVC hierarchy, control flow or validation mechanism (like in many web application frameworks). But there are also frameworks for Swing to handle these issues. So this is a good oppurtunity to promote (again) this one: TikeSwing. It provides simplified event handling, clear MVC and great components (Ok, I may be a little subjective here... But if you think it's impossible to produce clean Swing code, just try it).
  77. Clean Swing code[ Go to top ]

    to use a particular MVC hierarchy

    It be great to have one w/ dominant mind share, I agree.
    jGoodies and JDNC used to have mindshare, but are kind of falling by the side. JDNC may end up not having the right org chart to deliver, they missed several milestones.

    XUI looks most advanced Swing framework vs upcoming WinFX/C# and the Flash 8.5, and it seems to be gaining popularity. (somone sent me the link).
    XUI is Very Nice!

    I mentioned before in this thread.... I wish GroupLayout (aka Matise) was in JDK 6 (not released) to go aginst C# v2 layouts(released past Oct.). So we still need to ship a 3rd party jar in addition, even in the days when people have JRE 6 on their desktop widley deployed ( by 2008 and 2009, users take time to massivley deploy). JDK 6 did plan to add a SwingWorker, great! (and 5 added Synnth L&F and fixed Network Launcher issues in 5.06 so Layout stands open even more.) Plus the said dominant MVC.

    .V
  78. Clean Swing code[ Go to top ]

    Personally I don't like JNDC and JGoodies binding, it just feels too complex: you should need only one simple line of code to connect component to a JavaBean (model). But XUI looks better to me.

    However, none of these frameworks have a clear, separate controller class for each view class (that would catch component events without creating specific event handlers). Some people think it's better that way, but I kinda like the original MVC pattern.
  79. Xforms could make it[ Go to top ]

    Another possibility to which more attention should be made is the W3C standard Xforms. It can be merged with other markup languages and support many features for RIA. For example, AJAX without Javascript!!! It can retrieve XML data from the server. It can communicate also with the local file system and has a nice separation between data (XML model) and processing. It is completely based on XML, includes a declarative events model (no or less Javascript needed) and meny other features. It is really worth to considering it.

    There are already plugins for IE (x-port, Novell and others), Mozilla is implementing it with IBM support (they are in a beta) and can also de used with PDAs (DataMovil).

    It is surprising to me that the community is not paying more attention to it.

    Regards,

    Rafael Benito
    SATEC
  80. No mention to RCP ?[ Go to top ]

    On my personal experience, the viable solution for enterprise applications are Eclipse RCP and soon available MSoft WFC. So I think the market will be shared between Ajax for the Internet and Eclipse RCP and / or WFC for the Intranet.

    Jeff
  81. This article is soooo gay...[ Go to top ]

    So you think writing a thick client that uses http is new? Wake up mate, this is retro 90's Win95 action, and it is also *dog ugly*.
  82. Why does the 'Optimizing the Client Side' article's discussion link point to this thread?