Discussions

News: BEA Workshop Studio debuts Eclipse Tools for EJB3/Spring

  1. BEA has announced the release of BEA Workshop Studio 3.0 (BEA WS), an $899 (USD) development environment integrated with Eclipse. BEA WS provides multiple options for persistence engines that support the EJB3 persistence specification, designed to provide both an open source and commercial option via Hibernate and BEA Kodo. of course, any such capability should be used with the understanding that EJB3 has not been finalized yet. The Spring IDE is also slated to be bundled with BEA Workshop Studio.

    BEA WS is available for download with a free 15-day evaluation period. As the download page indicates, BEA WS is the fruition of the NitroX acquisition by BEA in September 2005.

    Threaded Messages (32)

  2. What is BEA thinking?[ Go to top ]

    Didn't they talk to Bob Lee?
  3. Why pay?[ Go to top ]

    So why would I pay $900 for EJB 3.0 tooling - if Oracle just announced that JDeveloper 10.1.3 does EJB 3.0 for free?
  4. re: why pay[ Go to top ]

    Workshop Studio 3.0 is shipping today as a GA product, and is not in a tech preview or early access status.
    Also, it's my belief that many developers will prefer an Eclipse based approach, rather than jDeveloper approach.
    In addition, BEA Studio uniquely provides the AppXRay technology to help with design time consistency checking, code completion for annotations, dependency mapping, pre-build error checking for EJB3 related files and classes. This can help save lots of time vs. the frustrating runtime debugging process. This timesaving can pay for itself fairly quickly, which is the usual ROI argument for good quality tools. There are some additional points in my response in another thread about the value we provide for the software fee.
  5. Why pay?[ Go to top ]

    I'm waiting for Eclipse 3.2 and WTP 1.0 release as part of Callisto. This will also be free of charge.
  6. What about Eclipse DALI[ Go to top ]

    There is "DALI" project for EJB3 ORM.
    This plugin available from the official eclipse site:
    http://www.eclipse.org/dali
    It is possible to plug any EJB3-persistence complaint implementation (including kodo)

    Why should one use commercial version? What the benefits are?
  7. BEA is tracking the Dali project[ Go to top ]

    There is "DALI" project for EJB3 ORM.This plugin available from the official eclipse site:http://www.eclipse.org/daliIt is possible to plug any EJB3-persistence complaint implementation (including kodo)Why should one use commercial version? What the benefits are?

    I don't believe Dali has released anything yet, which may be one reason to use the BEA Workshop Studio tools. It's our hope that people are willing to pay for good quality tools the same way a craftsman would invest in their equipment. Here's an example of some of the value we are providing for the fee:

    o Feature: Multiple Persistence Provider support
    o Benefit: Choice of different pre-final EJB3 persistence API engines, from commercial quality options like BEA Kodo, to hibernate, to generic EJB3 spec implementations. Obviously the generic support will be more meaningful when the spec finalizes.


    o Feature: Object-Relational Mapping Workbench
    o Benefit: Automatic Generation and Visual Editors for OR Mapping (Schema to Classes, Classes to Schema) & Entity Relationships

    o Feature: Integrated Database Tools - DBXplorer, DBXaminer, SQL/HQL/EJB-QL Editor
    o Benefit: Integrated database tooling to explore and edit the data and schema of any JDBC enabled database

    o Feature: AppXRay Support
    o Benefit: Consistency checking, code completion for annotations, dependency mapping, pre-build error checking for Hibernate & EJB3 related files and classes.

    We're definintely tracking the Dali project, which if I am not mistaken is still in incubation. As it develops, so will our strategy our providing EJB3 tools in BEA Workshop.
  8. BEA is tracking the Dali project[ Go to top ]

    I don't believe Dali has released anything yet, which may be one reason to use the BEA Workshop Studio tools. It's our hope that people are willing to pay for good quality tools the same way a craftsman would invest in their equipment...

    We're definintely tracking the Dali project, which if I am not mistaken is still in incubation. As it develops, so will our strategy our providing EJB3 tools in BEA Workshop.

    In other words, not until there is a viable free alternative, will we give this tool away? At least provide it with a free non-commercial license as you do with other tools. I don't think anyone will buy it, as they do IDEA, until their company provides/acquires it. By giving away free non-commercial licenses, you're at least allowing people to discover the tool, play with it, and possibly recommend for purchase.

    Ilya
  9. BEA is tracking the Dali project[ Go to top ]

    In other words, not until there is a viable free alternative, will we give this tool away? At least provide it with a free non-commercial license as you do with other tools. I don't think anyone will buy it, as they do IDEA, until their company provides/acquires it. By giving away free non-commercial licenses, you're at least allowing people to discover the tool, play with it, and possibly recommend for purchase.Ilya

    We actually do provide a non-commercial license for exactly that reason. Also, we're right smack in the middle of the process for changing the eval period to 30 days, since the 15 was simply too short. We're trying to fix that as fast as we can. Great suggestions, thank you!
  10. non-commercial license?[ Go to top ]

    We actually do provide a non-commercial license

    that's good to hear... how/where do you get that? I can't find any references to it on your site...

    tia
  11. non-commercial license?[ Go to top ]

    > We actually do provide a non-commercial licensethat's good to hear... how/where do you get that? I can't find any references to it on your site...tia

    You don't have to get it seperately, it's the same eval license that you get with the product.. the end user license agreement of the trial specifies the non-commercial terms.

    Trying to make it easy,

    Pieter Humphrey
    BEA Systems
  12. BEA is tracking the Dali project[ Go to top ]

    Lets clear up few things.
    I don't believe Dali has released anything yet
    I'm not sure you are correct. I'm using DAL plugin in my Eclipse 3.1 for quite a while now...
    You can download it from: http://www.eclipse.org/dali/downloads.html

    Easy to install and pretty good quality of the plugin.
    It's our hope that people are willing to pay for good quality tools the same way a craftsman would invest in their equipment.
    Perhaps. But I thing you gambling here. In my opinion, you should concentrate on the product (KODO) itself...which is already pretty good (begginging from JDO support)
      Here's an example of some of the value we are providing for the fee:o Feature: Multiple Persistence Provider support
    Dali plugin has it for free. Exactly the same - multiple EJB3-persistence providers.
    Feature: Object-Relational Mapping Workbench Benefit: Automatic Generation and Visual Editors for OR Mapping (Schema to Classes, Classes to Schema) & Entity Relationshipso
    Dali plugin has it already. Although Visual Editors for ORM are missing at the moment, but you can easily do mapping via properties tab.
    See demo: http://www.eclipse.org/dali/viewlets/DaliDemo-AnnotateAddress_viewlet_swf.html
    Feature: Integrated Database Tools - DBXplorer, DBXaminer, SQL/HQL/EJB-QL Editor
    Dali plugin has it already. I can connect to any JDBC complaint DB. It also has SQL editor and data browser.
    Feature: AppXRay Support Benefit: Consistency checking, code completion for annotations, dependency mapping, pre-build error checking for Hibernate & EJB3 related files and classes.
    That part is still missing from DALI plugin. But hey this is only first beta version.

    Also they have news group. If you look into the postings you will see that people already starting to use it.
    http://www.eclipse.org/newsportal/thread.php?group=eclipse.technology.dali
  13. BEA is tracking the Dali project[ Go to top ]

    Also, DALI project will be presented on the upcoming ECLIPSE CON 2006, see for more details:
    http://www.eclipsecon.org/2006/Sub.do?id=63
  14. re: BEA is tracking the Dali project[ Go to top ]

    I believe Eclipse is great. Without it, NitroX, now BEA Workshop Studio, wouldn't be as good as it is today.

    Dali? I'm sure they'll do a good job. Same for WTP. The beauty of it is that being eclipse based, we can build on it (sometimes there are overlaps that last a few months) but we take what makes sense, and take it up a notch to new levels in productivity. At least we've been able to do this for since 2004.

    But today, right now, where some folks might appreciate a well fully functional, tested & proven integrated solution and we have (imho)a superior solution. When other projects become available, it will be up to us to embrace them and take them up a notch so that our customers benefit.

    Not to make this a free vs. commercial discussion, but there is certainly always room for improvements. In the end, the developers gets better tools - and isn't that worth paying (or not paying) for?
  15. re: BEA is tracking the Dali project[ Go to top ]

    I believe Eclipse is great. Without it, NitroX, now BEA Workshop Studio, wouldn't be as good as it is today. Dali? I'm sure they'll do a good job. Same for WTP.

    First I have a question to the BEA team. Why, other than industry pressure did you choose Eclipse as a platform to build on?

    I've been working with Eclipse, IntelliJ, and Netbeans for the last few years. IntelliJ is awesome as far as Java smart editing goes. Nothing beats it, but I find some issues with it's plugin support, etc...

    Eclipse to me is just not a true Java based IDE, they say so on their site. It's a tools platform and I find many issues with it, they they either refuse to fix and/or can't fix. The issues might be minor, and might not stop the development effort, but they truly are annoying. Their shortcut integration sucks, mostly due to great many plugins that they have clashing each other environments.

    For the last few months, I keep going back to Netbeans. 5.0 is awesome and I truly don't know what Eclipse has over Netbeans and/or IntelliJ these days, other than market share.

    Can someone from BEA elaborate on why the chose this direction?

    Ilya
  16. BEA is tracking the Dali project[ Go to top ]

    Just to bring everyone up to speed, Dali is targeted at supporting any EJB 3.0 compliant runtime and I've demo it with the preview EJB 3.0 support in TopLink and Hibernate. And SolarMetric put together the necessary config to deploy to Kodo. There should be nothing stopping anyone using Dali with their favourite EJB 3.0 runtime.

    The nice thing about Dali is that since it's a set of Eclipse plugins you should even be able to use it *with* BEA Workshop.

    In terms of releases, we're setting up weekly builds and the medium term plan is to ship a 0.5 Milestone in conjunction with the Webtools project 1.5 release in June. Our milestone plan is available here: http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Dali_Project. We're definitely
    interested in community feedback and would love to hear about experiences with Dali. Our newsgroup is the place to go: http://www.eclipse.org/newsportal/thread.php?group=eclipse.technology.dali.

    --Shaun Smith, Dali co-lead
  17. tools.hibernate.org[ Go to top ]

    congratulations to BEA for their new tools.

    (shameless plug coming up, but hey everyone else is doing it ;)

    A more Hibernate specific but still fully EJB3 compliant (and free) pluginset is available from http://tools.hibernate.org

    HQL/EJB QL editor
    Query execution and browsing of result
    Reverse engineering
    Code generation (incl. JBoss Seam skeleton app)
    cfg.xml and hbm.xml editing
    ...and more

    /max
    Hibernate Tools lead and member of Dali
  18. BEA Workshop, Dali, JDev, etc....[ Go to top ]

    Geez, I suppose we should be flattered that so many folks want to add their 2cents about competing alternatives.

    re: Dali, I saw the flash demo, looks nice - some basic validation & annotation support between the java & the tables but fractional in functionality compared to what Workshop Studio (formerly NitroX) does TODAY. A detailed description can be found here: http://www.m7.com/whatsnew.do A flash demo's in the works that shows this - we'll post soon.

    That said, we recognize the importance of projects like Dali & WTP. BEA is heavily involved in both and is co-lead for WTP. As they mature, we'll likely incorporate, extend and improve them. That's the key right? If everyone has the same productivity tools, wouldn't you want the extra edge? If everyone's got the Porsche, I want the Porsche Turbo.

    If you want the Turbo today, the download is available at: http://www.m7.com/x7

    Regarding JDev - I've seen it, and it's nice. I know some of the folks that work on it; so-so poker player ;-) but excellent software engineers. JDev's got lots and lots and lots of features I've never heard of. For some, that might actually be a problem. (ie. I don't need a semi-truck, I want the Turbo) BUT the main weakness is that it's not on eclipse. I suspect they have many customers asking for an eclipse based solution. And if I can poke fun for just a bit longer - JDev's in the same state of denial that Borland was back at JavaOne 2004; and less than a year later, they announced they were on the eclipse train. However, Big-O has some deep pockets and just might grind it out for a loooong time. We'll see...
  19. EJB3 persistence demo[ Go to top ]

    The workshop studio EJB 3 demo is up:
    http://dev2dev.bea.com/pub/e/805
  20. why pay for a tool?[ Go to top ]

    We have:
    - netbeans 5.0RC2, a really good tool and free!!
     (netbeans will support EJB3.0, there is a Netbeans.next already, https://glassfish.dev.java.net/public/netbeans/#NetBeans_5.0_IDE)
    - Netbeans Mobility package 5.0RC2 Free and the gui builder is great and free!!
    - Sun Java Studio Creator 2 for JSF, a good tool and free!!
    - Eclipse is also good and free!!

    Before I pay 900 dollar for a tool, I have to bee convince it is worth that and a free 15-day evaluation period is too short.
  21. why pay for a tool?[ Go to top ]

    Before I pay 900 dollar for a tool, I have to bee convince it is worth that and a free 15-day evaluation period is too short.

    As I mentioned in another thread reponse, we're in process of changing it to 30 days ASAP. Also, the evaluation has a non-commercial license.
  22. why pay for a tool?[ Go to top ]

    There are many of reasons why one would purchase a tool. The bottom line is, does it save you time?

    Quantify the costs of development resources (in any country) and the bottom line might surprise you. (even in India or China) Do the math.

    I'd estimate a 5 min time savings per day would equal to $1000 per year. (for a developer in the US) (mileaage varies in other countries) Could the tool save you > 5 minutes? I think so.

    I know: blah, blah, blah, roi, blah, blah, blah, total cost of ownership. Look at the bottom line and the facts and decide for yourself.

    As for non-eclipse based tools, they may be good, maybe even "really good" but eclipse is a freight train, with a full load, going full speed. On board or roadkill. Even Borland figured this out, albeit a bit late.

    Buy hey, a little competition keeps everyone on their toes. ;-)
  23. What about WebLogic Builder?[ Go to top ]

    Well, I am a bit surprised...

    WebLogic Workshop (WLW) used to be a free tool. Well, not anymore, I guess.

    The problem is: WebLogic Server 9 (WLS) is already on its service pack 1 (aka WLS 9.1) and there is no sign of a deployment tool (used to be WebLogic Builder).

    That means that there is no GUI tool for generating WLS descriptors. I used to be able to port EARs from of platform onto WLS by opening the binary EARs and editing the descriptors easily on a graphical and intuituve environment. Now I am doomed to work directly on XML files. Well, at least WLS XML descriptors are human-readable, unlike WebSphere descriptors. But WebSphere, on the other hand, has ASTK - the equivalent to WLBuilder, but also a nice Eclipse-based development tool.

    With no free tool not even for deployment purposes, how are we supposed to use WLS9 (or 9.1) at all? In my particular case, I need to convert 50+ applications from WebSphere 6 to WLS 9.1: how am I supposed to live without a deployment tool?

    In this case, IBM strategy seems a bit smarter: they do have a free deployment tool (wich is also a nice basic development tool that does even EJBs) called ASTK (Application Server Toolkit) AND a commercial IDE (called WSAD, I think).

    Until now, WLS 9 users have no deployment tool at all. Or am I completely wrong in here?
  24. What about WebLogic Builder?[ Go to top ]

    In my particular case, I need to convert 50+ applications from WebSphere 6 to WLS 9.1

    Interesting.
    Why would you want to migrate to WLS from WAS? What were the reasons?

    From my experience I see opposite trend. Some people migrating to WAS because they say WAS license cheaper than WLS...
  25. What about WebLogic Builder?[ Go to top ]

    In my particular case, I need to convert 50+ applications from WebSphere 6 to WLS 9.1
    Interesting. Why would you want to migrate to WLS from WAS? What were the reasons?From my experience I see opposite trend. Some people migrating to WAS because they say WAS license cheaper than WLS...

    Because WLS is far superior, IMO. I've worked for two fortune 500 comps...

    One migrated to WAS, but only because IBM was strategically shoved down it's throat. The other is refusing to this day to migrate. I think the only reason WAS now has such a huge market share, is because they throw in licenses for free or at a discounted price, when the company buys other products from them. Most large companies are in one way or another sourcing out their infrastructure, services to IBM these days, though you get a discount on a huge purchase order. BEA is a true J2EE app server company, and it shows with their strategic direction, continuous support for new J2EE advancements, etc...

    Ilya
  26. What about WebLogic Builder?[ Go to top ]

    In my particular case, I need to convert 50+ applications from WebSphere 6 to WLS 9.1
    Interesting. Why would you want to migrate to WLS from WAS? What were the reasons?From my experience I see opposite trend. Some people migrating to WAS because they say WAS license cheaper than WLS...

    BEA and IBM prices actually are the same whenever there is competition between them, I think (just my own opinion). Comparing both products can be quite tricky, since they kinda differ on the enterprise features in each of their bundles.

    Anyway, I see their market shares quite stable right now (yes, IBM ate a big chunk in the last years). Of course, I rely on my own impression here, since every research shows whatever result the paying dude wants.

    Even though I have bashed WAS a lot on the past (here in TSS), since WAS5.x IBM has a solid appserver (all past versions were a joke when compared to WLS at the time). At this point in time, WAS6 and WLS9 are both solid platforms that can be trusted. The competition is moving to other levels (Portal, SOA, process modeling and orchestration etc.).

    To answer your question then: my company has bet on the coexistence of several platforms (JBoss, WLS and WAS), and it's been a very successfull strategy until now. After all, the effort for developing **really** portable applications is also the path for best practices. So we are migrating applications onto WLS not to move from WAS, but to coexist with it.
  27. What about WebLogic Builder?[ Go to top ]

    Well, I am a bit surprised...WebLogic Workshop (WLW) used to be a free tool. Well, not anymore, I guess.

    the upcoming elcipse release of Workshop for WebLogic Platform 9.2 will remain a free offering for WebLogic Server customers as it always has been.

    It's the new elcipse tools in Workshop Studio 3.0 that are value-added plugins, with premium features like the AppXray capabilities and the support of multiple deployment platforms.

    Pieter Humphrey
    BEA Systems
  28. Nitrox whippets[ Go to top ]

    It's a pretty important point to get across that v9.2 Workshop will be free (loss leader) for WebLogic owners. Otherwise you have completely changed the product- WLS I mean. Part fo the deal of buying WLS was an IDE for round-tripping and deployment.

    I think you need to convery the point that the Nitrox version of Workshop is not tightly coupled to WLS. It has to compete against MyEclipse, JBossIDE, IntelliDudes, and now Sun's free loss leaders Sun Studio Creator and Enterprise.
  29. What about WebLogic Builder?[ Go to top ]

    Well, I am a bit surprised...WebLogic Workshop (WLW) used to be a free tool. Well, not anymore, I guess.
    the upcoming elcipse release of Workshop for WebLogic Platform 9.2 will remain a free offering for WebLogic Server customers as it always has been.It's the new elcipse tools in Workshop Studio 3.0 that are value-added plugins, with premium features like the AppXray capabilities and the support of multiple deployment platforms.Pieter HumphreyBEA Systems

    Well, this is good to know, but until WLW 9.2 is release I'll remain like an orphan... :P

    Anyway, WLW 8.1 forces us to work with the expanded directory structure during development (well, I am ok with that), but I still need something to work with the EAR binary files (i.e. a deployment tool like WL Builder).
  30. No OS X version...[ Go to top ]

    No respect, I tell you... no respect...
  31. No OS X version...[ Go to top ]

    Try Oracle JDeveloper 10.1.3. Works like a charm on the Mac (certainly better than Eclipse), no cost, full EJB 3.0 support (among many other things), and no need for plugins, everything *is* in the product out of the box... Need I say more?
  32. No OS X version...[ Go to top ]

    Try Oracle JDeveloper 10.1.3. Works like a charm on the Mac (certainly better than Eclipse), no cost, full EJB 3.0 support (among many other things), and no need for plugins, everything *is* in the product out of the box... Need I say more?
    I tried jdev and it didn't have JAX-WS in it. Really disappointing.
  33. I have no issue paying for tools as people have to pay the bills. However I would find it hard to justify to any client of mine a $899 price tag for a development environment.

    Especially when you can get rock star tools like myEclipse for $50 a year for the full version.