BEA takes JBoss and Sun to task on open source

Discussions

News: BEA takes JBoss and Sun to task on open source

  1. In an interview for the Register, Alfred Chuang says that JBoss isn't "real" open source because changes are regulated centrally, and that business customers do not want to hack around with the application server's code. This is rather odd, because if business customers don't want to "hack around" with an application server's code, central regulation of the source (as JBoss asserts) doesn't matter - it's quite possible that BEA uses the same model, except with far less access to the code in the first place. The same central control model is also used by other successful open source products - such as BSD, Linux, fetchmail, and many, many others.

    Threaded Messages (75)

  2. <blockquoteAlfred Chuang says that JBoss isn't "real" open source because changes are regulated centrally Linus Torvalds centrally manages Linux so...Linux is not open source as well?
  3. Poor BEA they don't seem to be able to get anything right. Any Open Source project that is going to make it in the business world does need some degree of central control to maintain quality and direction. Just as much as it needs a commerical company to offer support so the VPs will sign off on it. At the end of the day I do think they still have the best application server in town. Sadly the same can not be said of Portal and WLI.
  4. What confuses me is why BEA thinks ragging on OSS is giong to help them? Managed OSS versus "True OSS" is an odd argument and to me only points out that certain OSS projects are very stable and enterprise ready. Such as JBoss, Linux, MySQL, etc... Add enterprise level support and services and the only thing that truely changes is that instead of paying a million dollars for "Closed source" software, you now get that software for free and if you want to look at the source you can, but that isn't required and you certainly don't have to contribute.
  5. he same central control model is also used by other successful open source products - such as BSD, Linux, fetchmail, and many, many others.
    ...and Interface21, MySQL, LogicBlaze, etc. etc. etc. I think Alfred should change the statement to be "JBoss isn't "real" open source because it is a threat to our revenue."
  6. I think Alfred should change the statement to be "JBoss isn't "real" open source because it is a threat to our revenue."
    Just to be fair, this isn't too different from Marc writing a blog entry claiming "RedHat isn't real open source, JBoss is!" .. except Marc had nothing to gain from saying it and Alfred Chuang probably does. ;-) Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: Clustered Shared Memory for Java
  7. .. except Marc had nothing to gain from saying it and Alfred Chuang probably does.
    +1 Very good point.
  8. .. except Marc had nothing to gain from saying it and Alfred Chuang probably does.


    +1

    Very good point.
    What _exactly_ does Alfred have to gain from looking like a dunce in public?
  9. What _exactly_ does Alfred have to gain from looking like a dunce in public?
    I'm going out on a limb here, but I doubt he was crafting a message for you or other JBoss developers. ;-) My guess is that he is attempting to leverage some awareness of the differences between the "JBoss model" and the "Apache model", and he wants to be squarely on the "Apache" side of that line, assuming that it can be drawn in a convincing manner. Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
  10. I'm going out on a limb here, but I doubt he was crafting a message for you or other JBoss developers.
    His audience are business folks with little technical knowledge that are open to hearing empty speaches with meaningless buzzwords: What's your Liquid Data solution?
  11. meaningless buzzwords[ Go to top ]

    His audience are business folks with little technical knowledge that are open to hearing empty speaches with meaningless buzzwords: What's your Liquid Data solution?
    Tee hee, you mean VaporLogic? ;-)
  12. Alfred's Message[ Go to top ]

    What _exactly_ does Alfred have to gain from looking like a dunce in public?


    I'm going out on a limb here, but I doubt he was crafting a message for you or other JBoss developers. ;-)

    My guess is that he is attempting to leverage some awareness of the differences between the "JBoss model" and the "Apache model", and he wants to be squarely on the "Apache" side of that line, assuming that it can be drawn in a convincing manner.
    So you are saying that Alfred's argument is that "Open source == the Apache model"? And that BEA's model is closer to "Open source" (the Apache model) than JBoss' model? Wow. So he must be "crafting a message" for an audience that has never heard of Linux, MySQL, PHP, etc, or one that does not associate those projects with the words "open source"? Well then, I suppose it's a great public message for Martians. Perhaps Alfred, in response to falling market share here on Earth wants to expand into the solar system and beyond! Alfred in 2007: "BEA is the leading application server vendor in the alpha centauri system". :-)
  13. Re: Alfred's Message[ Go to top ]

    So you are saying that Alfred's argument is that

    "Open source == the Apache model"?

    And that BEA's model is closer to "Open source" (the Apache model) than JBoss' model?

    Wow. So he must be "crafting a message" for an audience that has never heard of Linux, MySQL, PHP, etc, or one that does not associate those projects with the words "open source"?

    Well then, I suppose it's a great public message for Martians.

    Perhaps Alfred, in response to falling market share here on Earth wants to expand into the solar system and beyond! Alfred in 2007: "BEA is the leading application server vendor in the alpha centauri system".

    :-)
    He's saying that Alfred's message is targeted at marketing and managment folks who don't know how OSS projects are run, whether it's JBoss, MySQL, Apache, etc. They don't know that ALL OSS projects have to have some central management and don't just let anyone put code in. They fundamentally don't understand OSS, so they are susceptible to having their impression of it manipulated by marketing like this. Of course, as Cameron pointed out, Marc is hardly innocent of this kind of marketing himself.
  14. "According to Chuang: "JBoss is open source software for selected people who are approved [and] can participate. [Participation is] selected by Marc Fleury. That's not an open source process. An open source process is an open community process. You've got to have an open source process and open source community."" This is garbage -- it doesn't conform to Mr. Chuang's definition of open source, so what? I can understand why JBoss would want to be selective about who commits code to their application server -- it avoids the remote possibility that someone might turn around and claim some sort of ownership rights and thus start a fiasco similar to what's going on between some Linux supporters and SCO.
  15. more ranting...[ Go to top ]

    "According to Chuang: "JBoss is open source software for selected people who are approved [and] can participate. [Participation is] selected by Marc Fleury.
    Participation is not selected by Marc Fleury. Lead developers tell our IT department. "Please add commit rights for this individual. They have shown they have a clue and have signed our individual contributor agreement or our corporate contributor agreement."
    That's not an open source process. An open source process is an open community process. You've got to have an open source process and open source community.
    Well: * We're distributed under FSF-based licenses. * you can view our roadmap and bugs at: jira.jboss.com * you can view past and present design discussions at: http://www.jboss.com/index.html?module=bb&op=main&c=15 * You can view our docs for free * You can contribute more docs for free on our public WIKI: http://wiki.jboss.org/ * You can contribute code by sending in a patch to jira.jboss.com * You can become a CVS committer by showing initiative and signing the contributor agreements linked above. Be aware though that JBoss, the business, is growing fast and we recruit our CVS committers very aggressively. I wouldn't normally go off so hard, but we see IBM and BEA sales reps use this "JBoss isn't really open source" tactic time and time again when they are losing deals to us. I guess Alfred and company are so desparate now that the CEO himself has to spread this junk. Bill
  16. JBoss isn't "real" open source because changes are regulated centrally
    I have to agree. Alfred Chuang is way off base and is clearly unfamiliar with open source projects. I'd like for him to point out an open source project for which changes are not centrally managed. Even Apache projects, which are possibly the most community driven open source projects of all, have centrally managed change process. And since when does development methodology (including change management) have anything to do with the definition of open source? Cheers, Clinton
  17. I can't think of any succesful open source project that isn't centrally managed. How could anyone expect to get anything done if a bunch of developers just go about willy nilly changing code. And why would we not want to "hack around" with the application server's code? Stepping through the application server code has helped us solve a number of really complicated bugs. Simply stepping through some code might not be "hacking around" per se but having the code freely available is very valuable to us.
  18. Oh, crap! Alfred better get BEA to change their press release, fast! They repeatedly refer to the centrally-managed Spring codebase as an open source project!
  19. A Turning Point?[ Go to top ]

    This marks an epic event, when... 1. Chang actually acknowledged that JBoss exists. 2. He didn't spend half the interview talking about how fast his car is. It is evident Chang doesn't understand the JBoss business model or Open Source. BEA should continue "blending" with their LiquidWare and JBoss will continue to provide solid software backed with proven service offerings. Nothing to see here. Move along. STAY METAL! Roy Russo http://jboss.org/jbossBlog/blog/rrusso/
  20. Re: A Turning Point?[ Go to top ]

    Pretty much agree with you. BEA talks of making things simpler by blending with the best of open source technologies/framework in market. But is BEA ready to open source its Applications which are using most of the open source technologies/frameworks? @S http://www.pcmspace.com
  21. "Blended open source"[ Go to top ]

    Pretty much agree with you. BEA talks of making things simpler by blending with the best of open source technologies/framework in market.
    This whole "blended open source strategy" thing always sounded to me like the open source strategy you have when you don't have an open source strategy. I have never heard anything more ad hoc and incoherent. (Well, I suppose Alfred's latest interview is more incoherent.) I mean, if BEA would do like Microsoft does, and defend the commercial license model for its good points - and it certainly does have some good points - and then just say "we are BEA, we don't do open source, that is not our model", I would respect them. But instead they offer up this rubbish ("Blended open source", "JBoss is not really open source", "customers don't want to see the sourcecode of their appserver") that no-one in either the business or technical worlds takes seriously. It's a real shame. BEA used to be such a great company. It truly upsets me.
  22. Re: "Blended open source"[ Go to top ]

    It's a real shame. BEA used to be such a great company. It truly upsets me.
    Actually I remember WebLogic being a great (little) company. They started out with jdbc drivers, and immediately they got great reviews from users (perhaps because of the low quality of drivers from Oracle.) Then they had this idea of making an application server, and for a few years they were leading all the specs - I remember that they had one of the first implementations of jsp. Then, unfortunately they got bought by BEA, a company which marketed Tuxedo and I think they understood that the days of non-Java OLTP were numbered and that WebLogic would just become more and more expensive. Eventually everybody leaves and the only thing left in a company is the name. Guglielmo
  23. WebLogic just won JavaPro award as the "best visual java component". Seriously. Check out JavaPro site. So everything is not so bad :-) Marina http://www.servletsuite.com
  24. Re: "Blended open source"[ Go to top ]

    I think this argument can be broken down into 3 separate issues: 1. profit motivation -- JBoss (the company) has a profit motivation just like BEA. don't confused the fact that you can download an app server and use it without paying a license fee with the notion that JBoss is costless. most companies which intend to run JBoss in a production environment are going to want support, and it's not in JBoss's interest to leave money on the table over the lifecycle of the project. they just shift around how customers pay for it. 2. support evilness -- there used to be a time when you got immediate turnaround on support from actual developers at support at weblogic dot com , even though it was not an open source product. i'm sure that's still true for, say, Tangosol . 3. access to source code -- there are many products which ship with source that are not open source products, particularly in the embedded space. being able to adapt a product at the source-code level is a time-honored, albeit rare, tradition. --bob
  25. Re: "Blended open source"[ Go to top ]

    This whole "blended open source strategy" thing always sounded to me like the open source strategy you have when you don't have an open source strategy. I have never heard anything more ad hoc and incoherent. (Well, I suppose Alfred's latest interview is more incoherent.)
    Gavin, nearly every company in the world has a "blended open source strategy" -- at least the ones that use software. It means "we use open source" (like everyone else).
  26. Blending and Central Management[ Go to top ]

    Few days back i had a discussion with Bea guys abt this "Blending" ,i was told that they refine the opensource product and give a brand name with a enterprise level support? My question is Why ? Why they are doing so much favour on a opensource product.I believe that any opensource product doesn't need any kind of "refinement" from any enterprise,as opensource is much matured and have a definitive roadmap and proper development is done with prior planning. Bea 's blending is nothing more than a business strategy.Ok,if bea is so gentle than what they have done towards opensource. Yes ,be proud to say that JBoss is Centrally managed..it should be ,thats why it is the best middleware platform. rgds Lokesh http://lokeshpant.blogspot.com
  27. Yes ,be proud to say that JBoss is Centrally managed..it should be ,thats why it is the best middleware platform.
    Maybe you should tune your definition of middleware. And your definition of best. Or, at least, add an obvious "for me". BTW, if you want to meet something that is rather close to the "best middleware" take a look at ICE (www.zeroc.com). For me. Guido.
  28. The comments were made to provide a higher justification for BEA over Open Source projects like JBoss, all in the spirit of competition. Contributing code to one of the JBoss projects was a rather simple process for me. It was just a matter of letting the leads of the project know I had some code to contribute and then going through the proper process of getting it checked into the baseline. I didn't have to get hired by JBoss to do it. I wonder if BEA would make it that easy for people to check code into their baseline? Danny http://www.soamodeling.org
  29. Can someone point me to "true" open source ala Alfred... Is it Apache Beehive? :-)
  30. Apache[ Go to top ]

    From the article:
    Chuang, whose business has been challenged by the rise of open source, claimed BEA is a genuine open source company because it supports projects like Apache in its application server, programming tools and framework.
    I do think that XMLBeans, which BEA got incubated at Apache, is more "real" open source than JBoss will ever be. Open source is about having certain priorities, and these priorities conflict with the focus of the typical business, which is to maximize income, in JBoss' case support income. You had to wait until recently for JBoss to get a recovery log. Contrast that with Jonas, which has had a very technical focus. And as a result JBoss has better mindshare than Jonas, even though most of these minds don't understand what's wrong with not having a recovery log. But starting good open source projects and letting them go doesn't make BEA a good open source company. They are still the same commercial company. Guglielmo Enjoy the Fastest Known Reliable Multicast Protocol with Total Ordering .. or the World's First Pure-Java Terminal Driver
  31. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    Open source is about having certain priorities, and these priorities conflict with the focus of the typical business, which is to maximize income, in JBoss' case support income.
    Open source is about freedom. Period. Some people embrace it out of idealism, some out of pragmatism. You happen to be an idealist. JBoss does open source for pragmatic reasons: it saves them money and it's what a large portion of the developer base wants (that's not to say that individual developers working for JBoss can't be idealists). Sometimes I get tired of the "corporations are bad" mentality. Yes, JBoss wants to maximize profits. So what do they do? They get all sneaky on us and create a piece of software so useful that we've downloaded it millions upon millions of times. Bastards! But that's not all. Their next sly maneuver is to add features users are asking for! This devious scheme to fill their coffers not only keeps users from migrating to other servers, it in fact attracts new users by giving them what they want! Oh, the humanity! Seriously, though. There's no reason the pragmatists and the idealists can't cohabitate peacefully as long as they understand their differences and don't demonize each other. Are there bad corporations? Yes. Are they bad because they are corporations? No.
  32. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    Open source is about having certain priorities, and these priorities conflict with the focus of the typical business, which is to maximize income, in JBoss' case support income.

    Open source is about freedom. Period. Some people embrace it out of idealism, some out of pragmatism. You happen to be an idealist.
    Quite the contrary - I am not an idealist in this area. The reason I would choose Open Source over Closed Source (all other things being equal) is because I think that with the former I am more likely to get a problem resolved properly. And if push comes to shove I can fix problems myself. For example in my last job I had to port an XA-compliant system from Oracle to MySQL. It turns out the relevant jdbc driver was in alpha, and the XA support was evidently broken. So after some research I finally fixed it myself. The Geronimo guys provided free (and excellent) help on how to get my XA resource to work in Geronimo - not a trivial task. Unfortunately support for commercial products often is not that great. But to play this game you need to be able to locate the oss projects which have mindshare, so you can get free support and also control risk. Sometimes this oss support is ridiculously good. Once I found a bug in the blackdown port of the jdk (before Sun supported Linux). I found a bug in one of the native methods in java.io.File - directories were not getting deleted. I sent an email to Karl Asha and he sent me a patch in probably less than an hour. With JBoss this method doesn't work because the developers only provide support for money. This approach, while it doesn't bother me from a moral standpoint, cannot achieve the same transparency as a genuine open source project. JBoss also has a completely different audience, namely junior as opposed to senior developers. So since the experts don't buy into it it just never gets really solid. Guglielmo
  33. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    Open source is about having certain priorities, and these priorities conflict with the focus of the typical business, which is to maximize income, in JBoss' case support income.
    Open source is about freedom. Period. Some people embrace it out of idealism, some out of pragmatism. You happen to be an idealist.
    Quite the contrary - I am not an idealist in this area.
    Sorry about the assumption, but your position seemed to be that of an idealist (claiming business priorities are incompatible with OSS and whatnot). I think I see where you're coming from now. Cheers!
  34. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    With JBoss this method doesn't work because the developers only provide support for money. This approach, while it doesn't bother me from a moral standpoint, cannot achieve the same transparency as a genuine open source project.
    What utterly bogus nonsense. Have you considered how incredibly arrogant and disrespectful it is to say that about people who have - in most cases - helped thousands (in my case more like tens of thousands) of people out for free in our free forums. And who have fixed hundreds or thousands of bugs for non-paying users. No matter how much of a big opensource hero you think you are, you have simply _not_ spent as much time giving away free support as I have, or any of the guys I work with. Hate on JBoss all you like, but don't make up stuff to try and justify your sad, pathetic hatred.
  35. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    With JBoss this method doesn't work because the developers only provide support for money. This approach, while it doesn't bother me from a moral standpoint, cannot achieve the same transparency as a genuine open source project.


    What utterly bogus nonsense.

    Have you considered how incredibly arrogant and disrespectful it is to say that about people who have - in most cases - helped thousands (in my case more like tens of thousands) of people out for free in our free forums. And who have fixed hundreds or thousands of bugs for non-paying users. No matter how much of a big opensource hero you think you are, you have simply _not_ spent as much time giving away free support as I have, or any of the guys I work with.
    Hate on JBoss all you like, but don't make up stuff to try and justify your sad, pathetic hatred.
    I see no hatred in his post. Why so defensive? You have aligned with JBoss with one of the goals of making money on support. Nothing wrong with that. Thanks for the pre-JBoss days. But Hibernate the product has changed. So on the spectrum of what is open-source, Hibernate has moved from a sense of being democratically controlled to special interest control. People probably want the control back and they will get through competition, hence the interest in Geronimo and OpenJPA
  36. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    I see no hatred in his post. Why so defensive? You have aligned with JBoss with one of the goals of making money on support. Nothing wrong with that. Thanks for the pre-JBoss days. But Hibernate the product has changed. So on the spectrum of what is open-source, Hibernate has moved from a sense of being democratically controlled to special interest control. People probably want the control back and they will get through competition, hence the interest in Geronimo and OpenJPA
    As much as it pains me to say it ;-), Gavin is right and Guggegeeloe doesn't know what he's talking about. We do provide free support via many avenues for our projects. All project teams have an interest in seeing their project succeed and seeing it be widely adopted. I find myself answering personal emails, forum posts, and tutoring developers through problems on a regular basis... and this isn't hapenning through our support queue. To be frank, our forums are probably more active with developers answering questions than most OS project mailing lists. STAY METAL! Roy Russo
  37. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    We do provide free support via many avenues for our projects.
    Can you send me the location of all these, so I can look at them?
    All project teams have an interest in seeing their project succeed and seeing it be widely adopted. I find myself answering personal emails, forum posts, and tutoring developers through problems on a regular basis... and this isn't hapenning through our support queue. To be frank, our forums are probably more active with developers answering questions than most OS project mailing lists.
    Thanks for being Frank and using your (I assume) real name. No thanks for the insulting attitude, but you are who you are. So does JBoss have an official policy for how many support calls/email Roy Russo can field, and for how many he has to charge? Is it them for everyone else. I would expect you guys to use the ABB rule: Always Be Billable. Guglielmo Enjoy the Fastest Known Reliable Multicast Protocol with Total Ordering .. or the World's First Pure-Java Terminal Driver
  38. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    Can you send me the location of all these, so I can look at them?
    The forums? The mailing lists? Do you want me to send you every personal email I've gotten from every corner of the world of people asking for advice on portal development too?
    So does JBoss have an official policy for how many support calls/email Roy Russo can field, and for how many he has to charge?
    We answer 24x7 support calls from customers in the support queue. We also develop, test/assist QA, evangelize/blog/write-articles/write-books, ready releases, refine roadmaps, answer forums posts, etc... just like you'd expect from a well-run OS project. I'm not sure what you're line of questioning is trying to dig up. There are no alterior motives here. We are responsible for our projects and we effectively execute on providing tech + support. We are driven by the same passion that most OSS projects are, but I get the added benefit that my passion also comes with a paycheck. ;-) STAY METAL! Roy Russo
  39. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    Doesn't Jboss charge for support? I thought that was the whole idea of "professional open source".
    There is a massive difference between "community support" as provided by volunteer-based open source projects, and "24/7 support with guaranteed response times", as provided by a professional support organization. We sell support contracts with guaranteed response times. This is something you simply can't get with something like an Apache project. That doesn't mean we don't spend time helping out non-paying users in the forum, when we get a chance. In fact, even the non-paying users benefit from the fact that our projects have dedicated fulltime developers.
    can I take this statement as a promise that everyone at JBoss does the same?
    It is not any kind of promise, but yes, virtually everyone in our development organization spends time helping out users in the forums. It is really pretty amazing that you feel confident to attack us in a public forum without knowing such basic facts about who we are and what we do.
    I would expect you guys to use the ABB rule: Always Be Billable.
    Since you clearly have absolutely zero clue about what we do or how we do it, and have apparently never actually used any of our products, it would behoove you to stop talking now. Your "expectations" are utterly out of sync with reality: No, we are not a consulting organization, and so we do not think in terms "billable hours". We behave, for the most part, like a traditional product company. I realize that it is difficult for a lot of people in the consulting biz to really grasp the difference.
    Are you referring to Hibernate support? Hibernate was not spawned by JBoss.
    Hibernate would be a historical footnote if it were not for JBoss. I would have had to abandon the project several years ago, due to the incredible workload of developing this project and providing support to hundreds of thousands of users. You have never ever been in this situation so please don't presume to lecture me on the right way to manage such a project.
  40. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    It's a great thing Hiberante (committers) aligned with JBoss. You had to do it to take Hibernate to the next level and get some payback for the tnvestment of your own time and capital. Lots of opensource is going with commercial/community approach. Clearly, Hiberante now has a tiered support strategy. This is a product change. I hear stories of JBoss forum posters who don't necessarily get their quetions answered but do get contacted by JBoss sales for a support contract. To get back on topic, BEA seems to be moving to be inclusive - destroying their product to reinvent themselves. JBoss appears to be acquiring committers and pushing an exclusive stack strategy. As a user, I question BEA's commerical viability but I like where they are going with it. JBoss seems to be closing doors to other "competing" technologies that I use. Red Hat acquisition makes the future direction of JBoss less certain. You could get Bluestoned to death or become a mono-stack strategy like Windows/.Net. I trust Red Hat to do the right thing.
  41. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    It is not any kind of promise, but yes, virtually everyone in our development organization spends time helping out users in the forums.
    Here is a test for you: does jboss have a policy to advise people when jboss is not right for their particular problem and that they should go use some other product? If the answer is no, jboss is not an open source project. And please don't talk about arrogance. Think about how jboss developers conducted themselves in the past, and then have some intellectual honesty. Guglielmo
  42. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    It is not any kind of promise, but yes, virtually everyone in our development organization spends time helping out users in the forums.


    Here is a test for you: does jboss have a policy to advise people when jboss is not right for their particular problem and that they should go use some other product?

    If the answer is no, jboss is not an open source project.
    This is definitely the first time I have ever encountered this novel new definition of "open source". I guess when you have clearly lost an argument, the only available resort is to start redefining common terms to mean whatever you want them to mean, huh Guglielmo? Come to think of it, this is exactly the same problem Alfred has: redefining "open source" to mean whatever is convenient to win an argument. But what really confuses here me is: what evidence do you have that we _don't_ sometimes advise people not to use one of our products? From time to time I do, in fact, tell people that Hibernate is not the best solution to their problem. I imagine that going forward I will often do the same for Seam. And, I am the first to admit that sometimes Java is not the best solution to a problem (scripting solutions like PHP or RoR have a certain niche). It seems to me that for the second time in this thread you have proceeded from the assumption that (1) you don't like JBoss, then (2) imagined things that other people you don't like sometimes do, and then concluded (3) that JBoss people must also do those things. Can you detect the logical fallacy here?
  43. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    What I am trying to convey to you is that what makes a desirable open source project is not the access to the source itself, but a certain intangible attitude, a certain bending over backwards to make sure that not only the source is there for everyone to read, but that the project really has nothing to hide, and it has a degree of transparency. It seems that you don't "get" this, so I am just going to stop trying to convince you. But it doesn't bother me so much that I can't convince you because over the years I have seen that jboss doesn't "get" this attitude, and that's why I consider it risky. And I don't think that about any other open source project I have seen. P.S. You might enjoy this essay by R.P. Feynman: http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html G
  44. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    What I am trying to convey to you is that what makes a desirable open source project is not the access to the source itself, but a certain intangible attitude, a certain bending over backwards to make sure that not only the source is there for everyone to read, but that the project really has nothing to hide, and it has a degree of transparency.
    Well, I for one deeply value transparency and helpfulness! I can't say whether an "intangible attitude" is a positive or negative thing - my attitude is usually quite tangibly positive (except during silly TSS flamewars, which tend to push me toward a more negative attitude). I would like to believe that everyone on my team is open, positive and helpful almost all of the time. Again, the problem with your whole argument is that you simply have not shown a skerrick of evidence that JBoss developers do not "bend over backwards" to help users (on the contrary, the guys on my team often go out of their way for users), nor have you shown that we lack transparency (geez, most of our planning is done in public JIRA and public forums and mailing lists), nor have you shown that we have anything to "hide" (examples, please, of something I am hiding or have hidden), nor have you shown that we lack an "intangible attitude" (whatever that means). Nor have you shown any reason why any of these things are related to something being "real" open source or not. I notice that you have now backtracked significantly from your original position and are now merely claiming that these qualities make an open source project "desirable". But surely they are qualities that are desirable in _any_ software project, and are quite orthogonal to opensourceyness.
  45. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    Again, the problem with your whole argument is that you simply have not shown a skerrick of evidence that JBoss developers do not "bend over backwards" to help users
    Until recently jboss shipped a transaction manager without a recovery log, and jbossmq, which does not implement XAResource.recover. This should have been clearly advertised on the web site - since it corrupts datababases. The fact that it was not is a real trust issue for jboss. In my book that's not bending over backwards. By the way, I do _not_ have a similar trust issue with Hibernate. When I first learned about Hibernate I could tell immediately that it was a well-run project with great technical merit. It seemed totally focused on technical excellence, and I think you didn't really care if people used the software or not, which is a sign of having the right focus. G
  46. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    This is the JIRA for the JBossMQ bug: http://jira.jboss.com/jira/browse/JBAS-1341
    XARecovery needs to completed by implementing XAResource.recover(). To make this work, the persistence manager will need to remember the Xids and return the list in response to the above request. The current implementation which heuristically rollsback incomplete transactions at recovery will need to be disabled when recovery is required.
    To enable this experimental feature within JBossMQ change the jdbc2 persistence to To use this feature, you need a recovering transaction manager. 1) Set XARecovery=true 2) Add the alternate queries that will then be used to perform the recovery. ... true ... INSERT_TX_XARECOVERY = INSERT INTO JMS_TRANSACTIONS (TXID, XID) VALUES(?, ?) DELETE_ALL_TX_XARECOVERY = DELETE FROM JMS_TRANSACTIONS WHERE XID = NULL SELECT_ALL_TX_XARECOVERY = SELECT TXID, XID FROM JMS_TRANSACTIONS SELECT_MESSAGES_IN_DEST_XARECOVERY = SELECT MESSAGEID, MESSAGEBLOB, TXID, TXOP FROM JMS_MESSAGES WHERE DESTINATION=? SELECT_MESSAGE_XARECOVERY = SELECT MESSAGEID, MESSAGEBLOB, TXID, TXOP FROM JMS_MESSAGES WHERE MESSAGEID=? AND DESTINATION=? UPDATE_MARKED_MESSAGES_XARECOVERY = UPDATE JMS_MESSAGES SET TXID=?, TXOP=? WHERE TXOP=? AND TXID NOT IN (SELECT TXID FROM JMS_TRANSACTIONS WHERE XID IS NOT NULL) DELETE_MARKED_MESSAGES_WITH_TX_XARECOVERY = DELETE FROM JMS_MESSAGES WHERE TXOP=? AND JMS_MESSAGES.TXID IN (SELECT TXID FROM JMS_TRANSACTIONS WHERE XID = NULL) CREATE_TX_TABLE_XARECOVERY = CREATE TABLE JMS_TRANSACTIONS ( TXID INTEGER, XID OBJECT, PRIMARY KEY (TXID) ) CREATE_TABLES_ON_STARTUP = TRUE Notes. 1) Change the type OBJECT for the XID to be whatever is the blob type for the database (see MESSAGEBLOB on the JMS_MESSAGES table) 2) If you already started JBoss once, you'll need to drop table JMS_TRANSACTIONS or "alter table" it to add the new column.
  47. Democracy[ Go to top ]

    So on the spectrum of what is open-source, Hibernate has moved from a sense of being democratically controlled to special interest control.
    How _exactly_ was Hibernate more "democratically controlled" when it was controlled 100% by Gavin King? 1 person = democratic 200 person company, accountable to hundreds of (Hibernate) customers = less democratic? Do you see how this is silly?
  48. Re: Democracy[ Go to top ]



    How _exactly_ was Hibernate more "democratically controlled" when it was controlled 100% by Gavin King?

    1 person = democratic
    200 person company, accountable to hundreds of (Hibernate) customers = less democratic?

    Do you see how this is silly?
    I wouldn't worry about it Gavin. People who tend to think OSS projects should be democratic tend to have NOT been a major participant in one. That or they're a little nuts :-) I've never seen an OSS project which was democratic. Maybe that's just because I look at projects that have gotten to a certain size, but they all tend to be benevolent dictatorships. Even at Apache, the "+1" votes only count amongst the committers, not the general public. It's the same reason the USA isn't a Democracy, it's a Republic. Direct democracy doesn't scale. Someone has to have a vision for where things are going and make it happen. You can't depend on popular opinion to come up with a vision. The nice thing about OSS is that if you don't like the vision and want to take up the work, you can fork the project and set off on your own. Anyway, that's not to say I'm always particularly happy about the direction corporate entities want to take the OSS projects I use, but at least I've got options.
  49. Re: Democracy[ Go to top ]

    I've never seen an OSS project which was democratic.
    Another reason why this idealistic view of democracy is not working for an open source project is that it also implies distribution of responsibility. In other words, nobody feels really responsible because it's always the "others" fault if something isn't right. With some dictators on the project, you have someone to blame. And if they are friendly dictators they actually feel completely responsible and take action. From my experience, this is the only working model if you want to release stable open source software, release updates often, and provide accountability. Without this accountability, a project will not scale as a product. Giving commit rights to anonymous and only releasing nightly builds is the easy way out of this cycle, also often seen with version numbers that never seem to reach 1.0. I'm still not sure why we are trying to discuss this managers marketing FUD with facts, though. It's not like he knows what he is talking about.
  50. Re: Democracy[ Go to top ]

    It's the same reason the USA isn't a Democracy, it's a Republic.
    And you are now the 1 in 1,000,000 Americans that understands that. ;-) STAY METAL! Roy Russo
  51. Re: Democracy[ Go to top ]

    How _exactly_ was Hibernate more "democratically controlled" when it was controlled 100% by Gavin King?
    You were a democrat at the time? Now you're a republican? ;-) Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
  52. Re: Democracy[ Go to top ]

    Anything run by a "King" is clearly not a democracy. Bad choice of words.
  53. Re: Apache[ Go to top ]

    With JBoss this method doesn't work because the developers only provide support for money. This approach, while it doesn't bother me from a moral standpoint, cannot achieve the same transparency as a genuine open source project.


    What utterly bogus nonsense.

    Have you considered how incredibly arrogant and disrespectful it is to say that about people who have - in most cases - helped thousands (in my case more like tens of thousands) of people out for free in our free forums.
    1) Are you referring to Hibernate support? Hibernate was not spawned by JBoss. 2) Since you work for JBoss now, can I take this statement as a promise that everyone at JBoss does the same? 3) If I can get all this help from you for free, why would I pay for it?
    And who have fixed hundreds or thousands of bugs for non-paying users.
    Doesn't Jboss charge for support? I thought that was the whole idea of "professional open source".
    No matter how much of a big opensource hero you think you are, you have simply _not_ spent as much time giving away free support as I have, or any of the guys I work with.
    I can safely tell you that I am not an open source hero. But I have a right to my own opinions. Just like you do. BTW, did you happen to notice that JBoss is the only open-source project where there is subset of users who seem to hate it? You might want to ask yourself who you choose to associate with. You only live once.

    Hate on JBoss all you like, but don't make up stuff to try and justify your sad, pathetic hatred.
    I don't hate JBoss. I hate being lied to. Guglielmo Enjoy the Fastest Known Reliable Multicast Protocol with Total Ordering .. or the World's First Pure-Java Terminal Driver
  54. You mean like, codehaus??[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps he thinks it isn't "real" open source because it isn't hosted on a server that crashes and is down for over a week without practically any word on status.
  55. Seems to me that BEA has done a great job integrating and migrating to open source projects like Spring and Eclipse because customers are moving in this direction. They have open sourced XMLBeans and Beehive and drive many a JSR. All this and still controlling thier core app server competitive advantage of performance, scalibility, and decent adminsitraton. JBoss still needs to work on the non-functionals. Acquisition by RedHat seems to move them in the opposite direction BEA is heading. I hear only hostility when JBossniks talk about Spring too. I hope Redhat will mellow the JBoss message.
  56. Am I losing my mind here or is everyone in this Thread taking the side of Marcf and JBoss ? I mean, you can always tell when a TSS Thread has JBoss in it based on the number of entries, but usually it's filled with people bashing it. Now there's nothing left but to wait until all the Spring Framework evangelists start commenting on how it might not be the answer for EVERYTHING!
  57. Yes, I like opensource, it is so cool. Probably I will recomment real open source for my boss. Is BEA real open source ?
  58. This reminds me of a guy at my last client who wanted to do an internal open source of some software. His vision is that everyone would commit changes at will. Last I saw it was collecting classes by well meaning developers but of dubious value. Plus the APIs were growing more and more bloated overtime. The really is something to be said about a central authority to say yeah or nay on changes. Raj Patel http://harpoontech.com
  59. Wow Joe, you really brought the astroturfers charging in with this one.
  60. Astroturfers[ Go to top ]

    Wow Joe, you really brought the astroturfers charging in with this one.
    At least the guys at BEA are willing to speak on the record. Guglielmo
  61. Re: Astroturfers[ Go to top ]

    At least the guys at BEA are willing to speak on the record.
    I like it when they speak on the record. Their ignorance of OSS shines bright and clear. STAY METAL! Roy Russo
  62. The core of the discussion to me is the difference between vendor driven OS and community driven OS (the latter being refered to as "real open source"). I have given a talk this week in Washington at the Transformation & Innovation conference about "evaluating OS communities" and asked a friend from a community driven CMS to join me as a co-speaker (Magnolia is "vendor-driven" but see below). The idea was that being from opposite ends of the OS spectrum we would have a lot that differentiates us. However, in the preparation phase I realized two things: * we all have the same problems * to solve them, we use the same constructs * the difference between community- and vendor-driven OS thus is ultimately neglectible * in the end, only community driven open source will survive What does that mean in the context of the current discussion? It means there is no "real open source". To compete against pure community-driven projects, JBoss has to be more and more community driven or it will perish. Read the complete train of thought on this in my recent blog entry - Boris http://www.magnolia.info
  63. To compete against pure community-driven projects, JBoss has to be more and more community driven or it will perish.
    A lot of "community-driven" projects shriveled and died in the space of time that Jboss went from nothing to "quite successful". The reality "on the ground" does not seem to support your desired conclusions. Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
  64. Yet Rad Hat had to re-offer its community open source, Fedora, or risk losing its developer base. JBoss has only recently moved to a vendor-driven presence. Rickard Oberg did them a service by clearing up the LGPL licensing. his keep them in the community space.
  65. Yet Rad Hat had to re-offer its community open source, Fedora, or risk losing its developer base. JBoss has only recently moved to a vendor-driven presence. Rickard Oberg did them a service by clearing up the LGPL licensing. his keep them in the community space.
    You give Rickard too much credit when he deserves nothing. His sole motive with his "issues" blog was to try to discredit and destroy us. Anybody who pretends otherwise is either brainwashed or fooling themself.
  66. Unfortunately, you give Rickard Oberg so little credit. Is that how you feel about those who have commited to JBoss over the years? As a JBoss user he helped clarify the licensing. This is helpful to a lot of companies using it. That's a pretty important point about open source and what makes Apache so appealing. He can't help with general JBoss bad karma which you exude so well.
  67. Huh? What exactly was "clarified" by Rickard's amazingly confused and paranoid ranting?
  68. The license is LGPL forkable, community controllable LGPL. Given the hostility and phobias of JBoss, I can see why you don't care for Rickard Oberg's tactics. To me, they make JBoss stronger. I really hope Red Hat puts a muzzle on you guys. A little North Carolina charm could do you some good.
  69. "The license is LGPL forkable" Correct. What has this well-understood fact got to do with Rickard? "community controllable LGPL" Please define "community controllable". What does it have to do with Rickard? Is Rickard a "community"? If so, then no, the LGPL is not controllable by Rickard. :-) "I can see why you don't care for Rickard Oberg's tactics. To me, they make JBoss stronger" Correct. What doesn't kill me ..... (you know the rest). "A little North Carolina charm could do you some good." :-) Tee hee, I'm quite happy with our french - american - swiss - english - german - australian - norwegian - finnish - danish - belgian - greek - indian - mexican - taiwanese - scottish - ukranian - croatian commitment to speaking our minds and telling it like it is, whether y'all like it or not!
  70. Tee hee, I'm quite happy with our french - american - swiss - english - german - australian - norwegian - finnish - danish - belgian - greek - indian - mexican - taiwanese - scottish - ukranian - croatian commitment to speaking our minds and telling it like it is, whether y'all like it or not!
    +1 What I like about OSS is that you get ride of those annoying marketing/sellers people who don't have a clue about what they are talking but are always licking your boots. You can talk to the people who actually developed the product and can tell you why it is like that. It can be harsh at time but at least you know where they are going and why. It's not because you're a customer or a user that you own the company... This attitude always made me sick. And to the idealistic people who think "real" open source isn't backed by companies, check out most Apache projects and you'll see that most are backed by a company (Maven-> Mergere, Geronimo->IBM, Lenya->Wyona, MyFaces-> Iran, ADF Faces-> Oracle, Tomcat->JBoss, ...). The *lead* developers get paid to do their work and this is why you can get such a good product in the end with a professionnal support if you need too.
  71. Tee hee, I'm quite happy with our french - american - swiss - english - german - australian - norwegian - finnish - danish - belgian - greek - indian - mexican - taiwanese - scottish - ukranian - croatian commitment to speaking our minds and telling it like it is, whether y'all like it or not!
    Then you should have no problem with Rickard Oberg telling it like it is whether you like it or not!
  72. Then you should have no problem with Rickard Oberg telling it like it is whether you like it or not!
    Right. The problem is, you still havn't given me an example of Rickard "telling it like it is". You claim that Rickard had something to do with "clarifying" the LGPL, but you've given no example of any such clarification. All I know of is examples of Rickard telling it like it isn't: For example, "JBoss ... cancelled the partnerships with a majority of the German service provider companies, sued at least one of them for using the "JBoss" name, and tried to acquire and use the customer list of said companies". FYI, none of those three factual claims are true. Or his novel interpretation of the LGPL, where he tried to "revoke" the license and magically transmute it into GPL. Or his claims to be a "co-founder" of JBoss, when in fact he was a paid employee of Telcel (the predecessor of JBoss Group). Or - best of all - a previous thread on TSS where he tried to extort a million dollars from JBoss by threatening to keep posting these kinds of claims unless we coughed up. Are these the "clarifications" you are so keen to laud Rickard for?
  73. Then you should have no problem with Rickard Oberg telling it like it is whether you like it or not!


    Right. The problem is, you still havn't given me an example of Rickard "telling it like it is"...
    http://thejbossissue.blogspot.com/ http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1868611,00.asp He states: Copyright notices in JBoss code - Fixed JBoss license - LGPL JBoss distribution - Legal "JBoss" trademark - Still covers services I assume Red Hat would require you to address the issues whether true or not. He did have the decency to show his issues were, for the most part, addressed. For me, he brought up some FUD that would need to be addressed for most companies using JBoss. The ill will Marc F. has shown over the years, the phobias, the attacks on anyone or any technology that could impact the JBoss marketshare, even your own rant, show that JBoss is propbably capable of pulling a fast one. If you must have the last word as most JBoss attacks require, please do. I'll continue to use JBoss but I will cheer on Geronimo and OpenJPA. Choice, now that's real open source.
  74. Copyright notices in JBoss code - Fixed
    In response to Rickard's FUD, we thought it would be best to audit our codebase to make sure that the noisy copyright header legal blahblahblah appears on every file. It is not at all clear to me what the community gained from this (apart from protection from Rickard's FUD). I strongly doubt that contributors or end users are at all fussed about boilerplate copyright headers in sourcecode. In years, I have only ever seen two people who thought this was important (you and Rickard).
    JBoss license - LGPL
    As it has always been. WTF does Rickard have to do with this? Where has _anyone_ ever claimed that the license of JBoss is anything other than LGPL. Do you even have a clue about what you are talking about here?
    JBoss distribution - Legal
    As it has always been.
    "JBoss" trademark - Still covers services
    Correct. JBoss is a registered trademark. Just as the Apache trademark or the Linux trademark or the MySQL trademark. Do you actually know anything about trademark law, or know what it means when JBoss, Inc asserts a trademark on "JBoss"? Rickard clearly doesn't understand this stuff, since he claims that us owning the "JBoss" trademark means that no-one else can sell "Training for JBoss Application Server", for example (this is no more correct than Rickard's other bogus claims).
    He did have the decency to show his issues were, for the most part, addressed.
    So then, his issues were "for the most part", an issue with boilerplate sourcecode copyright headers. (Since that is the only thing we have "addressed".) Wow, what a great public service he has done! I'm sure the community will thank him for that. Rickard: the main who made JBoss sourcecode noisier!
  75. Oh, and by the way, just in case you are about to argue that Rickard has some kind of Cindy-Sheehan-style-absolute-moral-authority on these matters, make sure you realize that Rickard's contributions to JBoss were made while he was on Marc Fleury's payroll. I'm not sure if this is widely known in the community.
  76. Thats the power of open-source – it is a truly transforming force. It forces us to ultimatively think about value, and who would argue that this is not a good thing? "Value" is always important in any competitive environment irrespective of how money and resources are obtained to prolong the lifetime of a product. There are many commercial and non-commerical software vendors that daily assess the value of their offering and the conclusion is not always to provide free software just to tip the scale. Value can always be added to any solution once it is "Open" - open in that others can extend and integrate into the solution via a documented API. I wish the software industry would focus its effort more on this aspect, providing sufficient documentation and cleaner lines of control so that I would not have to continue to look at the "Sources" which is basically pushing (or distributing and multiplying) the development effort elsewhere as a hidden cost. Kind regards, William Louth JXInsight Product Architect JInspired "J*EE tuning, testing, tracing and monitoring with JXInsight" http://www.jinspired.com