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News: Tech Talk: Thomas Kurian on the next application platform

  1. Thomas Kurian, senior vice president of development for Oracle middleware platform products, is delivering a keynote at TheServerSide Java Symposium on the next application platform. In this interview, he talks about some of the key elements of that platform, including POJO-based development, orchestration, integration with open source frameworks like Spring and "a la carte" Java EE 5 compliance. Read the Interview Find out more about Thomas Kurian's keynote presentation at TSSJS 2007.

    Threaded Messages (54)

  2. Hmmmm[ Go to top ]

    This should be interesting seeing as how to date the only good software that's ever come out of Oracle is the database itself. I mean the f-ing jdbc driver still has obvious horrible bugs in it "today" for christs sake. There, my little poke in the Oracle eye.... ;)
  3. Re: Hmmmm[ Go to top ]

    This should be interesting seeing as how to date the only good software that's ever come out of Oracle is the database itself. I mean the f-ing jdbc driver still has obvious horrible bugs in it "today" for christs sake.

    There, my little poke in the Oracle eye.... ;)
    Hi, Can you be more specific on the "horrible" JDBC bugs in question? Kuassi Mensah JDBC & Java in the Database Product Management, Oracle
  4. Binding string params[ Go to top ]

    I remember their used to be a bug where binding a string parameter in a prepared statement would force Oracle to perform full table scans. Not sure if this was ever fixed, not currently using Oracle at my present job.
  5. Re: Hmmmm[ Go to top ]

    Hi Kuassi, since you asked that question I will try to give you an answer (and ignore the original topic). I have to agree with others that the 10g driver was a huge step forward. Nevertheless the overall state of the driver remains an arguable experience. This not because of direct bugs, but because of minor issues that could create unforeseeable development and deployment risks. Just three (recent) examples: - Why is that you still need the OCI driver to get proper Euro sign support? The thin driver supports insert, select will return a ? in rare cases. - Why is that an enterprise class database driver returns SUCCESS_NO_INFO for executeBatch calls while the underlying Oracle classes offer this type of evaluation? I understand that the JDBC spec does not mandate support for proper executeBatch infos. But why do we have to disable batch updates for versionized data at JDBC level even though the the Oracle driver can handle it? - Why is it that everything around NLS is still a major nightmare? Again a few issues can be solved by using OCI drivers. But in most cases it is a trial and error experience because of the limited documentation. Luckily the name for an NLS option depends on whether you use an alter statement (thin) or environment variable (OCI). Someone could argue that profound oracle experience in your team would solve most of the issues. Right. But in my experience - especially with mixed teams (in consulting) - even that knowledge does not prevent costs related to Oracle driver issues. I have seen many cases where it took hours or even days before a group of Java developers identified an application bug as an oracle driver issue that is "already known" by others - and/or well documented online. In the end the fix was a matter of minutes - the overall effort a week. Usually these costs are hidden somewhere in the project budget. I should add "luckily for oracle", since these efforts never get connected to Oracle officially. Instead they are covered by the typical bug fixing or deployment phase, so your management will never know that a DataDirect driver license could have saved lots of money... It's really unbelievable that I have never been in a project so far that used Oracle drivers and did not waste time and money while working around driver glitches. Jens
  6. Re: Hmmmm[ Go to top ]

    Jens,
    I have to agree with others that the 10g driver was a huge step forward. Nevertheless the overall state of the driver remains an arguable experience. This not because of direct bugs, but because of minor issues that could create unforeseeable development and deployment risks.
    Rest assured that we are more than aware of all the issues you have mentionned and others, unfortunately, in spite of continuous enhancements, because of the large and various Oracle database customer base, we are saddled with a huge backwards compatibly requirement. That requires us to keep old code, old interfaces, add lots of flags, and try to support the interactions between all of the above. A radical solution would be to break with this tradition, forget backwards compatibility and make a clean/fresh release. This is just an exploratory question: what do people think about such idea? Kuassi http://db360.blogspot.com
  7. JDBC Driver[ Go to top ]

    I suggest that Oracle would improve the messages given in SQLException providing more details to us the developers what the problem really is. My best example is "Table or view does not exist". Well I would love it to include what table/view that actually does not exists. Working with enterprise systems some of the executed SQL are very complex and it could take some time to diagnostic what the problem was. So if the driver could help us there would be great. Otherwise I experienced a driver upgrade had changed how a number was read from the DB and converted into a Big Decimal. It lost it's precisions if the last digit was a 0. So if you had stored 123.90 in the DB it would read it as 123.9. That was in 2003.
  8. Re: JDBC Driver[ Go to top ]

    I suggest that Oracle would improve the messages given in SQLException providing more details to us the developers what the problem really is.

    My best example is "Table or view does not exist". Well I would love it to include what table/view that actually does not exists.

    .
    Unfortunately, at this time, JDBC could not get those details from the RDBMS. Kuassi http://db360.blogspot.com
  9. Re: Hmmmm[ Go to top ]

    I'm not sure this is a fair characterization of the current state of the Oracle driver. Prior to 9i, the driver left a lot to be desired; bugs, nonstandard features, etc. The 9i, and 10+ drivers are a fine product in my opinion. I've used the drivers as both an application level consumer, and a lower level infrastructure provider. I wrote the majority of the Oracle support into the Apache OJB project, and did a lot of work for Oracle support in Castor. I have also shipped products that used the Oracle driver in a high volume situation. cheers, Matthew
  10. ResultSetMetaData.getTableName[ Go to top ]

    The issue with oracle jdbc driver I had during evaluation of Apache Tuscany DAS with oracle database was with ResultSetMetaData.getTableName(), it is not implemented by oracle jdbc driver and returns empty value. This forces use of xml descriptor for each query defined within DAS and limits its usability. Regards Wojtek
  11. Hi, This is correct, as documented, http://download-west.oracle.com/docs/cd/B19306_01/java.102/b14355/datacc.htm#i1059088, the Oracle JDBC driver has implemented most of the methods of the ResulSetMetaData interface but getSchemaName() and getTableName(). Kuassi, http://db360.blogspot.com
  12. Being a little sarcastic, this is documented since middle ages, wonder what technological difficulties prevented Oracle from implementing getTableName and getSchemaName, the most fundamental data. This example and answer just illustrates my feeling about Oracle java products, you built ferrari but without seats. Lucky you got fantastic database ...
  13. Not so fantastic...[ Go to top ]

    Or has the oracle db install stopped clobbering your path with out dated JRE and perl distributions?
  14. Actually, by design (i.e., a feature), the RDBMS does not return name of the table as part of the description of the result set. This can be seen as a limitation but JDBC cannot be more royalist than the king. If i may offer a rationale, in many development projects, the client code is not given access to the underlying tables; instead it gets select priviliges on views and execute priviliges on stored procedures. Kuassi, http://db360.blogspot.com
  15. Calling clearParamters on a prepared statement throws null pointer exception.
  16. Calling clearParamters on a prepared statement throws null pointer exception.
    THis is a bug that may have already been fixed, which release of the driver are you using? Kuassi http://db360.blogspot.com
  17. You describe the next application platform as the convergence of Java EE 5, SOA and Web 2.0
    Should one continue reading??
  18. Oracle's opinion does not matter[ Go to top ]

    Oracle have one excellent product - their database. They have built a brand from this one product, and use its reputation to sell a wide variety of 'solutions'. The majority of their products are buzzword enabled copycat pap, aimed at pointy haired bosses who lack the with to distinguish between 'expensive' and 'good'.
  19. Oracle have one excellent product - their database.

    They have built a brand from this one product, and use its reputation to sell a wide variety of 'solutions'. The majority of their products are buzzword enabled copycat pap, aimed at pointy haired bosses who lack the with to distinguish between 'expensive' and 'good'.
    "excellent" database are you sure? A very experienced DBA as told me that the Oracle database has several flaws thathave been papered over and it has been flawed for years even though they stole most of the Ingress developers in an attempt to fix the problems. What Oracle are excellent at is Marketing. BTW. Postgres by all accounts is still meant to be pretty good and it's open source.
  20. Oracle - all show no go[ Go to top ]

    Why would I want to read opinions of employees of a company, that can't produce one good product in the Java space? Everything I've tried from Oracle was a disappointment, their portal being the biggest one. If anyone considers using that behemoth, please, please do your research. It it at least 2 years behind in implementation of standards such as JSR 168, WSRP and you end up using Oracle proprietory APIs to get anything working. You have to use half-baked customization of Struts or plain JSPs for portlets, and they really want you to just embed SQL into pages. Worst product of the decade:-) As for the database, I personally didn't have problems with the driver. But I find it shocking that the supposedly market leader still can't add simple features found in other databases: - Autoincrement columns - Table/column names longer then 32 characters - User friendly administration and querying tools I have to praise Oracle marketing team for fooling managers into buying Oracle products. For technical folks - steer clear and go with the market leaders - BEA, IBM, JBoss.
  21. Re: Oracle - all show no go[ Go to top ]

    Why would I want to read opinions of employees of a company, that can't produce one good product in the Java space?
    Alex, Sorry your past experience with Oracle products has not been a good one. I do disagree with the comment that Oracle can't produce a good product in the Java space. In fact we have many great products in the Java middleware and developer space.
    I have to praise Oracle marketing team for fooling managers into buying Oracle products. For technical folks - steer clear and go with the market leaders - BEA, IBM, JBoss.
    Actually, Oracle is a market leader and this can be verified by several independent sources - industry analysts, market share figures, revenue figures etc. It does take more than clever marketing fooling managers to become a market leader. This market is a tough, extremely competitive environment and you need great products that can meet vigorous technical scrutiny to do well in this space, which Oracle is doing. I don't expect anything I say will change your opinion, but the proof is in the products. Oracle products are available for download and can be used for development and prototyping for free. I hope you are able to give one of our products a try, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Regards, Dennis Leung Oracle
  22. Re: Oracle - all show no go[ Go to top ]

    Oracle is doing really good in middleware area and lot of organizations are using it. They have a full stack of products and development tools that is the best in the class. Unlike offerings from BEA and IBM the IDE is free and all the middleware offerings are easily accessible. I know lot of people/companies who were really impressed with the stack and are moving in that direction. So to say that oracle is only good in database side may be not correct at all.
  23. Re: Oracle - all show no go[ Go to top ]

    ah..."the tyranny of the masses". A lot of people like unicorns too, but I'm not one of them. The database is awesome, the java product offerings are pooh. nuff said..
    Oracle is doing really good in middleware area and lot of organizations are using it. They have a full stack of products and development tools that is the best in the class. Unlike offerings from BEA and IBM the IDE is free and all the middleware offerings are easily accessible. I know lot of people/companies who were really impressed with the stack and are moving in that direction. So to say that oracle is only good in database side may be not correct at all.
  24. Re: Oracle - all show no go[ Go to top ]

    Have you really evaluated Oracle's middleware/java platform in last couple of years or just making a blanket statement? regards Debu
  25. Re: Oracle - all show no go[ Go to top ]

    I used OC4J 904 and I was very disappointed. I tried to use a more recent Oracle JDBC driver and and the only options I found were: 1)putting the jdbc libraries in java_home/lib/ext 2)launching oc4j with a modified command line Other free containers let simply put your jdbc driver under WEB-INF/lib Similar issues arose with XML parses We are evaluating OC4J 10.1.3 that seems a nicer evolution Giovanni
  26. Re: Oracle - all show no go[ Go to top ]

    Have you really evaluated Oracle's middleware/java platform in last couple of years or just making a blanket statement?

    regards
    Debu
    As far as "blanket statement", I think I've shown many specific problems I've personally experienced with Oracle products. Please reread my post. I have used Oracle OC4J and Portal this July. Versions 10.0.2 which I believe was the latest at that time. So yes, it's a very recent experience. Prior to that project I was the architect on a BEA Portal project and now I'm developing a WebSphere based portal solution. As I have mentioned, I think Oracle is at least 2 years behind in the implementations of features and specifications. The most annoying thing is that Oracle's Portal approach is very SQL-driven, not JEE oriented. It forces one to use proprietory APIs like Oracle PortalRequest instead of HttpRequest in order to interact with session and portal parameters. No support for JSR 168, no modern day framework for building web apps (Portal version of Struts only has 3 supported tags, we had to subclass and implement the rest of Struts tags - it's a well documented issue). Poor IDE based on JBuilder - they only recently announced a plan to switch to Eclipse I believe. OC4J is pretty nice but as I understand it was purchased/licensed from a different company (Orion app server), so I can't credit Oracle with it. And it is still lagging behind BEA, IBM and even JBoss in standards support. JDBC - why in year 2007 the error message about "inserted value too large for column" does not tell me which column?? Why in year 2007 I can't have a table that's name is longer then 32 characters?? Why do I still need to buy/download a separate product (like SQL Navigator or Quantum DB Eclipse plugin) to give me easy UI into querying/updating the data in the database? I find myself using more and more MySQL because it's smaller, faster to install and start, easier to administer and suites 95% of the typical projects. I'm no DBA so I don't know how the two compare on the high end (millions or rows and terrabytes of data) but again, 95% of the enterprise projects will do better with MySQL IMHO when the license costs are part of the equation. Now guys who work for Oracle and post in this forum, don't get defensive. It's not that I don't respect the opinions of the author of the article. I am sure there are plenty of good people working on that company. I do believe that there is a huge disconnect between the marketing of Oracle products by Oracle, and the reality that a developer would face when trying to use them. I was EXTREMELY frustrated with Oracle Portal and that's when I realized that there's nothing else of merit that Oracle actually produced in Java space. If DBAs like Oracle database, let them pay for it and use it, but there are plenty of better choices for Java development/deployment.
  27. Re: Oracle - all show no go[ Go to top ]

    JDBC - why in year 2007 the error message about "inserted value too large for column" does not tell me which column?? Why in year 2007 I can't have a table that's name is longer then 32 characters?? Why do I still need to buy/download a separate product (like SQL Navigator or Quantum DB Eclipse plugin) to give me easy UI into querying/updating the data in the database?
    You have heard about the nifty tool called SQL Developer from Oracle. Haven't you? Its free. Its Eclipse based and its good to say the least. Of course you have to download it seperately, but is that a problem in 2007? It is probably not as good as Toad, but does the job well. As far as the other errors go - Yeah. Both Oracle the nearest database competitor does a sloppy job at it. There is simply no incentive to better the driver.
  28. SQL Developer correction[ Go to top ]

    You have heard about the nifty tool called SQL Developer from Oracle. Haven't you?
    Its free. Its Eclipse based and its good to say the least.
    Actually SQL Developer is based on JDeveloper and not on Eclipse.
  29. Unlike offerings from BEA and IBM the IDE is free and all the middleware offerings are easily accessible. I know lot of people/companies who were really impressed with the stack and are moving in that direction. So to say that oracle is only good in database side may be not correct at all.
    Should I say that this is another attempt of Oracle marketing, saying that BEA and IBM IDEs are paid? Well, I'm sure of BEA, you can download workshop for free. BEA authored page flows and donated it to open source as Apache Beehive. The IDE is not just free, but is available as an eclipse plugin. ASFAIK, IBM IDE was also on eclipse, not too sure whether it is now free. You can easily download BEA products for development with free license for life from their website. I think Oracle is a late entrant in the market, and is playing catchup. They have a wonderful database, but its more of marketing in middleware, for now.
  30. Unlike offerings from BEA and IBM the IDE is free and all the middleware offerings are easily accessible. I know lot of people/companies who were really impressed with the stack and are moving in that direction. So to say that oracle is only good in database side may be not correct at all.


    Should I say that this is another attempt of Oracle marketing, saying that BEA and IBM IDEs are paid? Well, I'm sure of BEA, you can download workshop for free. BEA authored page flows and donated it to open source as Apache Beehive. The IDE is not just free, but is available as an eclipse plugin. ASFAIK, IBM IDE was also on eclipse, not too sure whether it is now free.

    You can easily download BEA products for development with free license for life from their website.

    I think Oracle is a late entrant in the market, and is playing catchup. They have a wonderful database, but its more of marketing in middleware, for now.
    Marketing? Look at the facts, not the marketing. For a full IDE to develop all your server applications: BEA Workshop Studio - $899 IBM Rational Application Developer for Websphere - $2200+ Oracle JDeveloper - Free And if you ask people to rate the different development environments I think you will find that JDeveloper gets as good as or better reviews than the others. Looks to me like Oracle is leading, not playing catch-up, especially if you think that IDEs and tooling should all be free.
  31. For BEA, you use WebLogic Workshop for development, and that is free. Workshop studio to my understanding provides plugins for JSF/Hibernate etc only. For J2EE, Web application and portal development, WebLogic workshop is sufficient and its free. In fact it comes bundled with the platform(includes portal, integration and the app server), which is free for developers as well. On whether Oracle is leading, well, I would doubt that. As I'm not aware of any mission critical or high performance systems running oracle app server. But most of them do run the Oracle database, which in my opinion is definitely the leader. And I would attribute more importance to the runtime framework, rather than just nice IDEs, as thats what matters in production systems.
  32. For BEA, you use WebLogic Workshop for development, and that is free. Workshop studio to my understanding provides plugins for JSF/Hibernate etc only.

    For J2EE, Web application and portal development, WebLogic workshop is sufficient and its free. In fact it comes bundled with the platform(includes portal, integration and the app server), which is free for developers as well.
    I could use emacs to develop J2EE apps as well, doesn't mean I want to ;-) Studio includes support for JSF, Struts, EJB3, ORM and Hibernate, and Spring. I am pretty sure most people use at least one of these in their J2EE apps.
    On whether Oracle is leading, well, I would doubt that. As I'm not aware of any mission critical or high performance systems running oracle app server. But most of them do run the Oracle database, which in my opinion is definitely the leader.

    And I would attribute more importance to the runtime framework, rather than just nice IDEs, as thats what matters in production systems.
    Sorry, we are having two slightly different discussions. I was saying that Oracle is showing leadership in the IDE area. Oracle is clearly not the leading app server right now, although there are obviously many "mission-critical" and "high performance" systems running on it (it was the previous SpecJ performance leader). At one point it was the fastest growing commercial server, although I haven't heard recently if it still is.
  33. funny article[ Go to top ]

    It is truly amazing the extent to which Sun will continue to put up with Oracle antics in the middleware space, as this article points out: http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/03/06/HNoracleeclipse_1.html Not NetBeans but Eclipse as preferred development environment for TopLink, even after Sun goes out of its way to use TopLink as JPA implementation in Glassfish. Then the unnecessary reference to SCA and SDO. And finally an advocation of piece-meal compliance with the JEE 5 spec. Please suggest to me 3 more direct ways that Oracle could undermine Sun's middleware efforts around Java... I am sure some of you will support Oracle's efforts as competitive in nature, and simply a reflection of market leadership, which Sun is reputed not to have in the app server market. This is untrue for JEE5, especially when vendors like Oracle come out advocating this 'a la carte' nod to Spring, and do not implement the spec. I also wonder how Red Hat feels about the reference of Hibernate being an Apache project...
  34. Re: funny article[ Go to top ]

    It is truly amazing the extent to which Sun will continue to put up with Oracle antics in the middleware space ..
    Douglas, IIRC you used to work on Sun's application server product. Regardless of anything else, it is hardly fair to say that "Sun [puts] up with Oracle," since Sun provides free software that competes with Oracle's app server offerings, and Oracle pays Sun for that "privilege". (Same goes for all the JEE vendors.)
    Not NetBeans but Eclipse as preferred development environment for TopLink, even after Sun goes out of its way to use TopLink as JPA implementation in Glassfish.
    NetBeans has a very small market share compared to Eclipse. It's a decision based on market share reality, not emotions. (If it were an emotional decision, I'm sure that they would have selected IDEA, as I did. ;-) Also, Sun hardly "went out of its way" to use the JPA reference implementation (TopLink) in the J2EE reference implementation (GlassFish).
    .. market leadership, which Sun is reputed not to have in the app server market.
    From what I've heard from the few companies that I know using Sun's app server, it is a good product. Unfortunately for Sun, so are _all_ the alternatives, and it's a _very_ competitive market. Coincidentally, Sun's application server does have a leading market share among Sun employee bloggers, who all parrot the same company line in a coordinated DOS attempt to overwhelm Javablogs with positive Sun spin ("New Glassfish release! NetBeans better than Eclipse!") Those faux-grassroots efforts are a huge turn-off, and make it hard to trust anything product-related in Sun blogs. Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
  35. please, Cameron[ Go to top ]

    Sun does not cut me a bi-monthly check anymore so your implication that I am a Sun blogger is void of anything that even looks like compensation. And I, fo course, follow The Aquarium posts, and to claim that Eduardo and crew makes over-inflated statements is insulting to them I am sure, as it is the most deferential blog on the app server market there is. They consistently talk about WebLogic, JBoss, and even Spring. I dont know much about the NetBeans bloggers, but dont spread FUD about the Glassfish people. Look a little closer, did they have to take TopLink for Glassfish? No, I have no idea why Sun did that, except for this crazy, historical relationship meshed with lore that Larry and Scott used to party in the Valley together when they were 30-somethings. It's over, starting with the de-emphasis of Solaris (which I can see) and leading to the statement of JEE 5 compliance being unnecessary (which i cant see), there is far less of a relationship between Oracle and Sun then there used to be. Still, Sun continues to promote their JPA implementation. I think they ought to buy CocoaBase, rip and replace, and let Glassfish free. And for you, the reigning King of self-promotion, to claim that marketing of Glasfish is in some way dis-ingenuous is almost as comical to me as the article which i referenced. I really don't understand the point of your response to me, other than to try and take down Glassfish a bit. You seem to be on the record as a pretty stringent WebLogic apologist, and so i can see where its in your best interest not to see Glassfish grow. But don't take it out on them, your insecurities about the app server market, at least they're leading adoption of a standard that you most likely rely upon for future income...
  36. Re: please, Cameron[ Go to top ]

    Douglas -
    Sun does not cut me a bi-monthly check anymore so your implication that I am a Sun blogger is void of anything that even looks like compensation.
    I did not imply that. Please re-read my message. I understand that you are no longer at Sun and your enthusiasm for Glassfish is both personal and real.
    And I, fo course, follow The Aquarium posts, and to claim that Eduardo and crew makes over-inflated statements is insulting to them.
    Please re-read my message. I didn't say anything about Aquarium or Glassfish people, and I don't even know who "Eduardo" is.
    Look a little closer, did they have to take TopLink for Glassfish? No
    TopLink is the RI for JPA, yes? I still don't understand why you believe that Sun "taking" the open source version of TopLink is some sort of favor to TopLink. It's open source, it's the RI -- use it or don't use it. Whatever. For the record, I highly doubt that the use of TopLink is related in any way to some party fifty years ago that "Larry" went to with "Scott".
    And for you, the reigning King of self-promotion, to claim that ..
    I hope you did not intend that as an insult, although I would prefer if you state it as "Tangosol Coherence promotion" instead of "self promotion", and also provide a URL link with it. ;-)
    I really don't understand the point of your response to me, other than to try and take down Glassfish a bit.
    Douglas, please re-read my post. I in no way denigrated Glassfish. I explicitly said that I have been told by people using it that it is a good product, which means a lot (i.e. coming from people using it).
    You seem to be on the record as a pretty stringent WebLogic apologist ..
    The word you are looking for is "proponent", not "apologist". There is a subtle difference that you may be missing. WebLogic is a good product, and when I started using it (version 3.0.3) there really was nothing else available that worked. Its strong market share is a reflection of that reality -- companies had no other reasonable choice for a working app server back then when they needed to pick one. Having picked a product, companies are rarely in a rush to replace that product if continues to work well.
    .. so i can see where its in your best interest not to see Glassfish grow.
    This is definitely not true. I suggest that you re-read my message. I said nothing negative (and honestly have nothing negative to say) about Glassfish. However, I do think that both your original post and your response reflect poorly on the products that you are advocating. Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: Data Grid
  37. whatever[ Go to top ]

    The reason I replied to your post was to not give the impression that I am responsible for bad press at Glassfish, which again you stated. Thats a low-blow, and you know it. We have conversations on TSS, and I have decided that part of my contribution to these discussions is to demonstrate what a lot of developers independently state, and that is WebLogic, WebSphere, Fusion are bloated and proprietary, where, reality be told, Glassfish and JBoss are not. I'm not down on you for promotion, but I'll hit back when you challenge my right and/or ability to promote platforms that don't, ahem, line-up with Tangosol. You can go on promoting, people allow it, and thats part of the power to TSS, that various companies get on here and state their position in the marketplace. But don't think that is not a venue to also state the opposing viewpoint, especially when it is documented (see above). We are "proponents" of different platforms, don't come on here and try and edit my preference, or I'll hit back, and will go toe-toe on the facts with you (no job postings, please, Eric). If you read my original post, I said "a la carte", SCA/SDO, and Eclipse are afronts to Sun's business plan. Do you have an argument with that? I will bet much that you can't come up with something to debate that...
  38. crackers[ Go to top ]

    Mr. Dooley,
    The reason I replied to your post was to not give the impression that I am responsible for bad press at Glassfish, which again you stated. Thats a low-blow, and you know it.
    I am completely confused by your reference to "bad press at Glassfish". I simply pointed out that your two previous posts on this particular thread "reflect poorly on the products that you are advocating".
    I'll hit back when you challenge my right and/or ability to promote platforms that don't, ahem, line-up with Tangosol.
    Please, no hitting. I'm very delicate. Your suggestion could not be further from reality. For the record: 1. I never challenged your "right and/or ability to promote platforms". This belief of yours borders on the paranoid. 2. Tangosol supports Sun's application server, and has for years, originally at the request of a Sun product manager. As I stated above, "I said nothing negative (and honestly have nothing negative to say) about Glassfish". Off the top of my head I can name a major airline that uses Coherence to manage session data (split across two data centers for HA!) for an application running on Sun's app server.
    We are "proponents" of different platforms, don't come on here and try and edit my preference, or I'll hit back, and will go toe-toe on the facts with you
    When you say "platforms", do you mean JEE? If so, then it is an illogical position for you to claim that I am a "WebLogic apologist" and at the same time that I am against the JEE platform. I suggest that you select one or the other fallacy and stick with it.
    If you read my original post, I said "a la carte", SCA/SDO, and Eclipse are afronts to Sun's business plan. Do you have an argument with that? I will bet much that you can't come up with something to debate that...
    If it pleases you, I will simply point out that you did not say "Sun's buinsess plan", but rather you said Sun's "middleware efforts around Java". For future reference, you can always scroll up the page to remind yourself of your previous unsubstantiated claims. And regarding Sun's business plan, it is honestly not my concern. Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: Data Grid for Java
  39. Re: funny article[ Go to top ]

    Douglas, I don't know you, but quite obviously you have a serious Oracle chip on your shoulder. (You didn't happen to be on one of the yaughts that lost to Oracle in an Americas Cup race, did you? ;-) If the lens through which you read technology news has caused you to write those kinds of distorted opinions then the chance of convincing you of the actual truth of the event is probably somewhere close to the number of democrats lining up to defend Scooter Libby. Yet, I somehow can't resist trying...(to convince you, not line up to defend Libby). Please don't drag Oracle into your Eclipse/NetBeans warzone. As far as we are concerned it doesn't matter which IDE people use, as long as we can provide them the support they need. Eclipse was mentioned as a choice because it is what customers were asking for. If customers ask for Netbeans support then it will obviously be a priority. There is no ill will towards any particular IDE, NetBeans included, so please don't read anything into it that isn't there. Sun going "out of its way" is a really strange way of describing all the Oracle developer resources that contributed TopLink Essentials to the EJB 3.0 Reference Implementation. Sun didn't "allow" TopLink Essentials to be the RI, they benefited from it. In return, TopLink Essentials benefited from the exposure of being the EJB 3 Persistence RI. It was win-win. Implying that Sun was just being nice to lil' ole' TopLink is not only wrong, but would be rather a snooty position to take if you represented Sun. Thankfully you do not, and I don't believe that Sun thinks that way, either. SCA and SDO they were NOT thrown in just to "undermine Sun's middleware efforts". TopLink implements all of the standards mentioned, which was the reason for mentioning them. I'm sorry that the mere mention of implementing other standards might make someone defensive about Java EE, but the reality is that Java is not a monopoly and standards can come from different standards bodies and still have merit. Just because a standard did not come from the JCP does not mean that it is of lesser worth. The whole point of mentioning those other standards was to show the value and breadth of the implementation and of the "persistence platform", which is bigger than just one persistence standard. Finally, just an FYI, the notion of Java EE "a la carte" is not a bad thing. We suggested it when we met with Bill Shannon and discussed some of the topics that we wanted to see investigated in Java EE 6, and Bill and other Sun folks in the room agreed with us that there was some possiblity and benefit of moving in that direction. This does not detract from Java EE, rather it makes it better, and the fact that we suggested it means that we have an interest in improving Java EE. To say that we are somehow snubbing Java EE is not only untrue but the exact opposite of the truth. We have been, and continue to be some of the biggest Java EE proponents, and we pay a lot of money to Sun to prove it. -Mike
  40. Re: Mike Keith[ Go to top ]

    Good response, I can take it, though I honestly don't feel all that convinced regarding my assessment that Sun's perennial #1 ally in the IT sector (you guys) is undermining NetBeans, JBI, and JEE 5 with statements from marketing people, executives, and even the developers implementing the spec.'s. As an aside, am I wrong or did Bill Shannon not leave Sun recently, as the Register reported, under some duress. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe if I'm right, you'll even argue that proves the mantra that Oracle is setting with this justification of "a la carte." And its well reported that Oracle is not supporting NetBeans which I believe I remember being a decision that runs all the way to your CEO - - my point that apparently blood does not run thicker than water at Oracle may be a little over the top at first blush, but I am not the one deciding on NetBeans support at Oracle. Chip on the shoulder is another excuse for attempts at editing alternative viewpoints than the positions that Oracle takes - - i have some fairly well placed comments that OC4J is different than Fusion, and still does not support J2EE or JEE with rigor. I sincerely apologize if your intention is to fix this, but Thomas' comments make me think that you guys are not serious about compatibility across JEE5. As you know by now, I am not implementing TopLink for my career, but I am still trying to figure out how SCA/SDO fit in here, is there a persistence model for ESBs? My point is more important than you are letting on: JBI v. SCA is how BEA and IBM have set it up, as far as I can tell. You mention it in a bigger picture JCP v. BEA/IBM/Oracle standards bodies. Good luck with that. Paying Sun and supporting Sun are two entirely different things, although that mentality puts you in the accommodating position that MSFT argues with, I just don't think you can genuinely state that today's announcement about Eclipse and Thomas' brief interview on TSS do not lead one to believe that something is amiss in the relationship. I know its a competitive market, but the three issues I originally posted about are big time important to Java people everywhere. You can march out a Sun rep. to dispute my claims next, you can cozy up closer to Glassfish via your marketing claims around Top Link, and you can fudge a little on JEE 5 and claim it is an advancement, but I am not beholden to Oracle, and will simply point out discrepancies in the evolving position. Apologies if this is a bother, but this is a public forum, and if you're going to market here, you might as well receive some feedback along the way...
  41. Re: Mike Keith[ Go to top ]

    go get em doug ! ;) "he should've armed himself if he's gonna decorate his saloon with my friend"
  42. Re: getting nowhere[ Go to top ]

    It appears that you can also dish it out... ;-) There's no sense carrying on a "no we don't", "yes you do" debate. Of course you are entitled to your views from where you sit. That is why this site is around. I am also entitled (I might even say I feel compelled) to respond with what I know and believe to be untrue about your views, and I can say that I have never heard of and don't believe there to be any strategy of undermining NetBeans, JBI or Java EE 5. In fact, I spend a large percentage of my time, on Oracle's tab, speaking at conferences telling people how great Java EE 5 is, and I think Thomas would have mentioned something to me if our policy on this had changed. Oh, and I also have a slide that lists the free IDEs that support Java EE 5, and it includes Eclipse, NetBeans, and JDeveloper. No undermining there, either. I simply must correct your gratuitously false statement that OC4J does not support J2EE. We have certified and passed numerous CTS test suite versions, and in fact run them regularly as part of our testing to maintain compatibility. OC4J is all about J2EE, so your statement is not only misplaced but kind of baffling to me. Someone can't know much about OC4J and say those kinds of things. Anyway, we aren't getting very far, here, but let me just say that the rumours you are spreading of Bill Shannon's demise from Sun are greatly exaggerated. Perhaps you are thinking of Graham Hamilton, who left last year? -Mike
  43. my fault[ Go to top ]

    Apologies to Bill Shannon, though, it seems to me an inconsequential mistake regarding your original point. I would think that customers and Glassfish implementers would feel differently on the so-called "a la carte" approach. Mike, I agree we could have this tennis match go 5 sets, but I am willing to call it a day, if you can just explain to the TSS crowd: what will Oracle's position on JBI implementation be? Is SCA or JBI the preferred delivery contract for the burgeoning ESB market?
  44. Re: my fault[ Go to top ]

    By all means. We take the same position as I mentioned above. We implement them both and make them available for the consumer to decide and use according to what is best and most appropriate for them. An ESB Position White Paper is freely available on OTN that spells it all out. I would encourage you to have a read. No subliminal messages or paragraphs that when read backwards have hypnotic effects ;-) Have a good one. -Mike
  45. thats funny, Mike[ Go to top ]

    Nice work, you again made it a joke when describing Oracle's specification implementation plans, I read it and can see that you have made a conscious effort to support all relevant technologies. I guess that is the best way to go, as JBoss has also chosen the same path with their ESB. I am still trying to figure out why Thomas chose SCA/SDO as his argument, but may be that was because what he was asked, right? Oracle is well-positioned and the marketing folks should have no problem selling future releases to non-suspecting customers, I wish you well, but somehow I suspect, we'll cross paths again, all the best...
  46. conspiracy[ Go to top ]

    Nice work, you again made it a joke when describing Oracle's specification implementation plans
    No, I didn't. I described exactly what our implementation plans were and pointed to a public paper that confirmed it. Then I made a joke about people that have the ridiculous notion that Oracle has conspiratorial plans to take over the world. Then, after you were apparently satisfied that I was actually telling the truth and that we are selling real implementations of specifications that we support, you made a strange comment about Oracle "selling future releases to non-suspecting customers" (implying to me that you subscribe to that same conspiracy myth.)
  47. set #4, apparently[ Go to top ]

    I thought I handled your jab in good nature, Mike, whats the deal coming back on and making another issue of it. You guys are doing both JBI and SCA, good luck, I will be watching but I hope you pull it off. Cameron, We could have laid all of this to rest if you just wouldn't poke fun at the start-up nature of Sun's app server program at present, and told me that you guys support it as a platform. I am confused why you get on my case when I support it, when you do business on it?
  48. Re: set #4, apparently[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,
    We could have laid all of this to rest if you just wouldn't poke fun at the start-up nature of Sun's app server program at present, and told me that you guys support it as a platform. I am confused why you get on my case when I support it, when you do business on it?
    My opinion of your posts was in no way related to the amount of support for the Sun app server that we provide in our Coherence product, and your evaluation of my statements should in no way be affected by that support either. I spoke up because I believed that your original post made several unsubstantiated claims that I perceived to be both inflammatory and incorrect. Unfortunately, no one else seemed inclined to respond to them, so I felt compelled to. And I would have done the same on behalf of Sun or Glassfish. Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: Data Grid
  49. Re: set #4, apparently[ Go to top ]

    I met some ex Sun engineers in Australia. They didn’t know Java better than anyone else, but they thought they had the 'privilige' of knowing Java better than anyone else. Why Sun, a hardware company, should control Java on the first place? Because of that registered coffee mug :-)
  50. Re: set #4, apparently[ Go to top ]

    It seems in this case the Sun(ex) employee actually does know more than you...So...Whatever.. =p
    I met some ex Sun engineers in Australia. They didn’t know Java better than anyone else, but they thought they had the 'privilige' of knowing Java better than anyone else.

    Why Sun, a hardware company, should control Java on the first place? Because of that registered coffee mug :-)
  51. Re: set #4, apparently[ Go to top ]

    It seems in this case the Sun(ex) employee actually does know more than you...So...Whatever.. =p

    I met some ex Sun engineers in Australia. They didn’t know Java better than anyone else, but they thought they had the 'privilige' of knowing Java better than anyone else.

    Why Sun, a hardware company, should control Java on the first place? Because of that registered coffee mug :-)
    Sun ex does know more than me about what? Tapestry?
  52. SCA SDO and Toplink?????[ Go to top ]

    What is the relationship between SCA, SDO and Toplink. I think you do not have the basic concepts of SCA or SDO.
  53. Re: SCA SDO and Toplink?????[ Go to top ]

    Shaji, The relationship between SDO and TopLink is that SDO is a spec and TopLink implements it. Simple as that. If you know anything about SCA you will know that the relationship it has with SDO is a very loose one. SDO facilitates SCA across service boundaries partly because it is a very disconnected model (data objects are assumed to always be detached). SCA does not really have any dependencies on SDO -- they are actually more like complimentary technologies. HTH, -Mike
  54. I kinda had high hopes for the next release of Oracle products. What I hope has changed is the data binding controls. I am referring to the Oracle ADF data binding to manage the integration between the user interfaces as the service façade. Currently you right click and generate a zillion xml files that allow controls to be bound to the service façade. Is there now a programmatic way to do this? This might have changed, its been awhile since I used some of Oracle products. I like the approach that Seam has taken for data binding, not sure if the Webbeans JSR 299 will change approaches that other vendors are taking? I really find that the Oracle ADF products seem geared towards ex-Oracle Forms Developers. As soon as you move away from using the drag and drop, or try and integrate other controls other than those supported by Oracle easy stuff starts to get real difficult. Take a look at every tutorial from Oracle, its all drag and drop .. how many production websites are actually made like this ? I do see support from spring and some open source stuff, I think it’s a step in the right direction. I think JBoss is on the right track with the partnership with Exadel, creating Seam and having a tool evolve with it. Oh and yes, Oracle portal is a major disappointment. On the bright side of things, Oracle acquired Stellant, they have very powerful CMS system.
  55. Nothing against Oracle, but I think they are not responsible for the problems encountered in their products. Recently in a project I had a situation to use their JDBC driver with a JDBC adaptor from another vendor. I was trying to use the driver with the adaptor to get table information for a table on which Oracle has defined synonyms. It surprised me that the get table metadata method on table entity return NULL for the tables with synonyms definition. Later I saw a open question the from the adaptor vendor to Oracle without a response. I have seen the same issues with their ERP products too. Their ERP products are too buggy and nasty compared to any other vendor. Their SOA enablement is nothing but writing wrapper PL/SQL code with JAVA types to call legacy PL/SQL bundles in ERP. They do not seem like following any quality in enterprise integration domain knowledge. However they seems like always go to market and try to compare their solution with BEA and SAP. Also I have noticed sometime they do not know what to do with all the products they acquired from other companies. Recently I saw a note about their common agreement with IDS Scheer for BPM integration of ERP modules with IDS scheer BPM solutions. I am not sure how come they ever go to build a reliable ERP integration solution without an open and standards interface to their legacy PL/SQL codes.