Discussions

News: Assessing the Survivors of the Java IDE Wars

  1. Jacek Furmankiewicz has undertaken a mammoth task in evaluating three of the major Java IDEs in DevX's "Eclipse, NetBeans, and IntelliJ: Assessing the Survivors of the Java IDE Wars." Jacek's done a good job of gauging each IDE's strengths and weaknesses. One concern is that a review of "Eclipse" calls into question what exactly makes up an installation of Eclipse. He specifies that he's reviewing Eclipse 3.2 and the Web Tools Pack, with Genuitec's MyEclipse product being considered when WTP is lacking. In the interest of fairness, it's worth noting that there are plugins and products that correct most of his pain points with Eclipse, in all four areas being considered: its Java EE support, JSF support, Swing support, and Struts support. Here's his summary, although it's well worth reading the entire article:
    Each of the IDEs reviewed here can do an admirable job in pretty much every facet of Java development. However, some are better than others, depending on whether you are doing Swing, web, or enterprise development. So I organized the review summary into these subject areas. Swing Development If your shop specializes in Swing development, NetBeans is definitely the way to go. Matisse is simply way ahead of the competition. If for corporate reasons you have no choice but Eclipse, then I definitely suggest MyEclipse with its Matisse4Eclipse builder. After those two choices, I would rate IDEA (due to its support for JGoodies Forms) next and Eclipse's default Visual Editor dead last—way behind any competition. It should simply be avoided, period. JSP/Struts Development Things are a lot more heated here. I would give a clear advantage to IDEA, followed by MyEclipse, and then NetBeans. Due to lack of build-in Struts support, the base distribution of Eclipse isn't much of a contender. JSF Development The three are in quite a tight race in this category as well. Once again, I feel IDEA comes out on top here, followed closely by Eclipse/MyEclipse, and the basic support offered by NetBeans in last place. Admittedly, this ranking would look a lot different if you take the NetBeans Visual Web Pack into consideration (assuming its limitations are acceptable), which would move it into the front of the pack. Enterprise Development For JPA support, I would rank NetBeans first (simply due to the quality of its generated code and support for properly setting up the persistence units), followed by IDEA, and lastly the still limited functionality of Eclipse's Dali project. If you are willing to abandon the standard JPA approach and accept straight Hibernate as an alternative, then MyEclipse becomes a worthwhile contender as well. For enterprise development, I'd say IDEA wins out with its rich support for both J2EE and Java EE 5, followed closely by NetBeans (which also does an impressive job here), and last is Eclipse/MyEclipse (mostly due to their current lack of support for Java EE 5).

    Threaded Messages (66)

  2. Admits its pointless[ Go to top ]

    It is simply impossible to evaluate all the possible development needs...
    So why bother doing the review? You just can't evaluate IDEs unless you spend a decent amount of time using them (at least a few months each). This review completely misses the point about IDEA. As an IDEA user, converted from Eclipse, I know it takes 3-4 weeks to begin to understand how powerful IDEA is. Its strength is not its editor but its keyboard-shortcut refactoring, its "intentions" which enable you to code at 5-times the speed of anything else and its code navigation and searching. NetBeans is not useable next to this. It just isn't. Period. Anyone choosing an IDE based on what is the current best at doing WYSIWYG GUI development is a fool.
  3. Certain amount of truth[ Go to top ]

    I fully agree that it is very hard to fully appreciate each IDE based on a few days of usages. I am sure power users of each IDE have favorite break-or-make features that are most important to them. That's why I tried my best to be moderate about any conclusions, since this review can be only somewhat skin-deep at best and admits to doing so. I did my best to cover as many bases as possible in what is a fairly large number of products. And I respect your opinion and your disagreements with the conclusion. Feel free to pitch a rebuttal to DevX.com in favor of IDEA, you'd be surprised, they may be quite open to it.
  4. Re: Admits its pointless[ Go to top ]

    Have you used NB recently? Or are you talking from your experience using NB 4.0? I am pleasantly surprised how easy it is to use NetBeans. It is quite performant too. It still lags behind Eclipse in refactoring. But out of the box support for JEE and JUnit generation, it is ahead of Eclipse.
  5. Re: Admits its pointless[ Go to top ]

    Have you used NB recently? Or are you talking from your experience using NB 4.0?

    I am pleasantly surprised how easy it is to use NetBeans. It is quite performant too.

    It still lags behind Eclipse in refactoring.

    But out of the box support for JEE and JUnit generation, it is ahead of Eclipse.
    Netbeans is an excellent tool, I always wanted to use it, but I shunned away from it, every time, due to one missing thing. Eclipses incremental compiler, it is a real time saver, and having to hit rebuild, is a huge pain in the long run. Refactoring is at a level which I would call good enough, in Netbeans, J2EE etc... is the best of the crop currently, but in the end, it falls flat on its face in the most basic need every developer who has to code needs, to cut down in the compilation cycle to the possible minimum. I am probably not the first one who thinks that Netbeans really needs something like incremental compilation, and I am rather sure the Netbeans people cannot add it due to legal reasons, not due to technical ones.
  6. Re: Admits its pointless[ Go to top ]

    Refactoring is at a level which I would call good enough, in Netbeans, J2EE etc... is the best of the crop currently, but in the end, it falls flat on its face in the most basic need every developer who has to code needs, to cut down in the compilation cycle to the possible minimum. I am probably not the first one who thinks that Netbeans really needs something like incremental compilation, and I am rather sure the Netbeans people cannot add it due to legal reasons, not due to technical ones.
    Hmmm... It could be quite simply that they believe adhering more strictly to the Ant build process that you'd use outside the IDE is more important. Personally I guess I've not felt a need for incremental compilation -- and appreciate the fact that I could get NetBeans to do its operations in terms of our existing Ant targets.
  7. Re: Admits its pointless[ Go to top ]

    I had read the incremental compilation would be present in Netbeans V6. So wait and see.
  8. Of the three, my vote would go to IDEA also, however, I have been slightly disappointed with version 6. It seems to be even more memory hungry than previous versions (and the 10 second freeze-ups during GC can be deeply irritating!). There are also some pretty irritating bugs. I cannot see myself moving away from IDEA in the near future, but there are days when I would sorely like to. I supsect that many of the issues (memory hunger in particular) are related to the built in support for many libraries and APIs. In version 3 IDEA really was a world class Java editor, it did the basics like no IDE I had ever seen. This is what hooked me, and this should be the focus. I tend to build Swing GUIs etc by hand and most of the time, all I really need for other libraries is XML schema/dtd based completion. * Excellent Java editing * Refactoring * Version Control * XML support * Ant/Maven support Everything else should be an optional plugin IMO. Don't make me pay (in the form of increased GC time at the very least) for thing I do not need.
  9. Of the three, my vote would go to IDEA also, however, I have been slightly disappointed with version 6. It seems to be even more memory hungry than previous versions (and the 10 second freeze-ups during GC can be deeply irritating!).
    +1 10 seconds? Sometimes I wait 5 minutes on GC on a 2 x 2 GHz Xeon XP box. I really hope someone from Jetbrains reads this: Please let me enable/disable features! I want to have a slim IDEA with just the few things I need. I don't need EJB, JSP, Ajax, Swing, etc pp! I don't want an IDE that consumes 400 MB and more!
  10. http://www.jyog.com/blog
  11. Of the three, my vote would go to IDEA also, however, I have been slightly disappointed with version 6. It seems to be even more memory hungry than previous versions (and the 10 second freeze-ups during GC can be deeply irritating!).


    +1

    10 seconds? Sometimes I wait 5 minutes on GC on a 2 x 2 GHz Xeon XP box.

    I really hope someone from Jetbrains reads this:

    Please let me enable/disable features! I want to have a slim IDEA with just the few things I need. I don't need EJB, JSP, Ajax, Swing, etc pp! I don't want an IDE that consumes 400 MB and more!
    You can do that now. Ajax, Swing, etc... are all plugins that can be uninstalled. Ilya
  12. You can do that now. Ajax, Swing, etc... are all plugins that can be uninstalled.Ilya
    Yes, but how can I reinstall them again when needed? We need disabling of plugins, not uninstalling. JBuilder has it in the latest versions before it died (at least in it's original shape).
  13. Good news - I have been using the Selena EAP and it almost never freezes anymore. If you don't mind using a beta (it is very stable and believe me I abuse it!) you can download it from http://www.intellij.net/eap/ Also, a while back the IntelliJ folks recommended the following settings for the vmoptions. You may want to try these: -Xms128m -Xmx512m -XX:MaxPermSize=92m -XX:JavaPriority10_To_OSPriority=10 -XX:JavaPriority9_To_OSPriority=9 -XX:+UseParNewGC -ea -server -Dsun.awt.keepWorkingSetOnMinimize=true -agentlib:yjpagen
  14. If you're really getting 5 min GCs, then you seriously need to look at the startup params you use for IntelliJ, RAM, and available swap space on your machine.
  15. Of the three, my vote would go to IDEA also, however, I have been slightly disappointed with version 6. It seems to be even more memory hungry than previous versions (and the 10 second freeze-ups during GC can be deeply irritating!). There are also some pretty irritating bugs.

    Works fast and wonderful here on my MacBook Pro:-)
  16. Works fast and wonderful here on my MacBook Pro:-)
    I propose an ammendment to Godwin's law: "As an online discussion about poorly performing software grows longer, the probability of somebody mentioning how well it works on their Apple hardware approaches one" :o).
  17. Works fast and wonderful here on my MacBook Pro:-)


    I propose an ammendment to Godwin's law:

    "As an online discussion about poorly performing software grows longer, the probability of somebody mentioning how well it works on their Apple hardware approaches one" :o).
    It's not the apple hardware per say:-), it's OS X itself that beats windows in any category.
  18. Works fast and wonderful here on my MacBook Pro:-)


    I propose an ammendment to Godwin's law:

    "As an online discussion about poorly performing software grows longer, the probability of somebody mentioning how well it works on their Apple hardware approaches one" :o).


    It's not the apple hardware per say:-), it's OS X itself that beats windows in any category.
    Yeah, it was the hardware before Apple switched to Intel ;)
  19. +1 Anoop
  20. [quote] Anyone choosing an IDE based on what is the current best at doing WYSIWYG GUI development is a fool. [/quote] i second that.
  21. It's hard to take a review of Java IDE's seriously that does not consider the free IDE that's won the Javapolis RAD Race Competition the last two years running: Oracle JDeveloper 10g http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/index.html It feature footprint is a J2EE-flavored analog of a product like Visual Studio 2005 Enterprise Architect, at a free price point. I agree with the poster about that you need to try an IDE before you can decide if you like it. Seems like the reviewer forgot to try one of the most feature-filled, productive choices he could have included in the survey :-(
  22. How many people use JDeveloper? Of those, how many are not working on an Oracle Consulting project? The only projects I've heard of that use JDeveloper are Oracle consulting projects. It looks like part of Oracle's vendor lock-in strategy.
  23. JDeveloper[ Go to top ]

    How many people use JDeveloper? Of those, how many are not working on an Oracle Consulting project?

    The only projects I've heard of that use JDeveloper are Oracle consulting projects. It looks like part of Oracle's vendor lock-in strategy.
    Here many consulting companies use JDeveloper, many Oracle partners must use JDeveloper for ALL. For example, I'm using in my projects and its cool in web development, its embedded oc4j container is helpfull and fast, but is crazy to configure it, I guess it has many bugs yet but, JDeveloper is "workable"
  24. How many people use JDeveloper? Of those, how many are not working on an Oracle Consulting project?

    The only projects I've heard of that use JDeveloper are Oracle consulting projects. It looks like part of Oracle's vendor lock-in strategy.
    Not too sure about the fact whether this is part of the Oracle's vendor lock-in strategy. However, you are correct when you say that JDeveloper is predominantly used when Oracle (consulting) is involved in the project. What's more - also the majority of Oracle partners use JDeveloper as their primary IDE, most of the time because Oracle ADF and/or JHeadstart is used in the project. On the other hand Oracle seems to be targeting the Eclipse user community more and more as they are actively participating in various Eclipse projects. I have asked Oracle reps. quite frequently why they (still) want to pursue having their own IDE. I think this mainly has to do with two things. First - JDeveloper (and ADF) is used by all the developers out there in Redwoord creating Oracle Applications and the whole Fusion Middleware Suite. This alone, I think, justify for them to have a specific IDE. On the other hand Oracle is coming from a 4GL (Oracle Designer/Forms) setting, and they are trying to create just such a combo with JDeveloper and ADF.
  25. Hi all, I followed this discussion with interest. Can anybody tell me what is the market penetration of the big three or the big four. I mean how many percent of the Java Developers use Eclipse, Netbeans, IntelliJ or JDeveloper. regards
  26. However, you are correct when you say that JDeveloper is predominantly used when Oracle (consulting) is involved in the project.
    That's probably why DevX didn't include JDeveloper in their review. If Oracle consulting wasn't forcing it on their clients and partners it probably wouldn't be used at all. I don't know anyone who freely chooses to use JDeveloper. Given the alternatives available JDeveloper doesn't fare very well in the free-market.
  27. I don't know anyone who freely chooses to use JDeveloper. Given the alternatives available JDeveloper doesn't fare very well in the free-market.
    Exactly.
  28. I have used both JDeveloper and Eclipse and I think JDeveloper is easier to use. Don't think Eclipse has any substantial advantage. I mean as long as you have an Oracle database. Also with the SQLDeveloper I think Oracle nowadays is doing a great job offering high-quality free software
  29. I would give more marks to JDeveloper when it comes to ease of Use over Eclipse. I think the industry must evaluate JDeveloper as well. They are doing a pretty good job. Personally, I am a big fan of IDEA, but for organizations that cannot use IDEA, I would recommend them to give a try to JDeveloper. It definitely has pretty nice support for a lot of J2EE/JSF tasks.
  30. Where is JDeveloper in this review ? In my opinion NB 6 will be a hit in WYSIWYG thin(JSF)/rich (Swing App Fmk) enterprise (JPA) apps development, but JDeveloper already have such support, based indeed on their proprietary ADF BC and ADF Swing/JSF frameworks. I know that in matter of community size there are notable differences, but in matter of functionality and productivity I'll give it a shot ... P.S. Where is the binding support in all of these IDEs(except JDeveloper) ? Because of this shortage I was forced to build my own visual data binding library (BTW usable in both NB and JDeveloper and potential wherever Java Bean API contract is held) based on JGoodies Binding Framework.
  31. The reason JDeveloper is not included is simply because that was not the scope I was asked to do. The request from DevX.com was to review NB, IDEA and Eclipse. However, yours is not the first request I have heard since the review to include JDeveloper, so I may do a followup to the review for JDeveloper only (using the same criteria as for the other IDEs), but that depends solely on whether DevX.com would be interested.
  32. The case with multiple Eclipse plugins is true, but it would have simply been impossible to review ALL of them and find out which one is best (e.g. all the multiple GUI builders or the 24 different Struts plugins). That's why we agreed with my editor at DevX.com to focus on MyEclipse as an integrated solution that comes with a pre-packaged set of plugins instead of hunting them down one-by-one. This would have made the Eclipse part of the review 4 times the size of any of the other IDEs.
  33. Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    Maybe this kind of review is useful to IT department Java devs? Maybe not even to them actually. This guys doesn't even understand why Eclipse is so popular. The reasons he lists: * Fast performance * Powerful refactoring * Quick fixes for errors * The ability to fix/organize imports * Lots of polish seen in little details (e.g., attractive Javadoc pop-ups on code completion). That's like the icing on the cake. The cake being Eclipse's plugin system. It's the ability to get a plugin for whatever you need that makes Eclipse so popular. The other IDEs are not even worth considering unless you know that you'll only ever have some very narrow range of needs and they can fill those needs adequately. Case in point, the author mentions Eclipse's "lack" of JPA support. That's funny, I used Eclipse to generate annotated entity beans over a year ago using the Hibernate plugin. This guy spends a lot of time talking about GUI builders, but doesn't mention Jigloo. It gives you a lot of the features of Matisse, but creates both Swing and SWT apps. You can look at the success of the popular BitTorrent client Azerus to see the benefits of SWT apps. The author failed to mention things like Spring support. Spring provides an Eclipse plugin for it (IntelliJ has one as well.) What about AOP? Well AspectJ is an Eclipse project and of course there's a great plugin for it. Here's a news flash, a lot of developers work with databases. Again, there's great Eclipse plugins for that. Or maybe you use TestNG for unit testing. Hey what do you know, there's an Eclipse plugin for that. Maybe, just maybe, you do more than just Java development. Maybe you write some C++ now and then. Well there's the Eclipse CDT for you. Maybe you program in PHP or Ruby on Rails. Again, there's great support for that too. That's why Eclipse has won any IDE wars there are to win. Not because it's so much better (though I would argue its debugger actually is quite better), but because it's so much more open. It opened itself up to the community and the community made it stronger than all the competition. That's why Eclipse has nothing to fear from whatever Microsoft can put together. And please, don't claim it's too hard or confusing or whatever to find the right plugin. You call yourself a developer, but you can't search for " eclipse." That's usually all you have to do to find an Eclipse plugin for what you need.
  34. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    With all due respect Michael, the review is very specific as to what it covers: BASE installation of Eclipse + a few select projects from the official Eclipse site AND MyEclipse if needed. It explictly does NOT cover the hundreds of plugins for different areas, as that would have simply been impossible to do. Would you like me to review 24 different Struts plugins? And it may surprise you, but yes many IT departments don't like to mix and match plugins from different vendors/authors and hope that they work well together or are integrated together. That's why most of the local Eclipse shows I know have standardized on MyEclipse as their one-in-all solution.
  35. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    It explictly does NOT cover the hundreds of plugins for different areas, as that would have simply been impossible to do.
    To me, this is Eclipse's greatest strength and biggest weakness. The fact that there's hundreds of them gives you great flexibility, but also requires you to sort through them to determine what you really need to accomplish a task. I love the openness of the plugin architecture that makes it so easy to create them, though. ---Pete http://nerdguru.net
  36. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    Ok, so you're still missing the point. The point is not "Eclipse + Plugin XYZ is better than Foo or Bar." The point (this is what I called "the cake" in my original post) is the plugin system. Not the plugins. The plugin system. Please repeat this until it sinks in. Eclipse is a completely open and easy to use platform. So if IDE Foo has some great feature, it is trivial for somebody put it into Eclipse. If it's valuable to you, go get it. Similarly when some hot new technology breaks out, one of the best ways to get people to adopt it is to offer an Eclipse plugin for it. If you're using a closed IDE, chances are it will take time for the central committee to decide that the new hot tech is worth devoting resources to creating supporting features in said closed IDE. To see a great example of this, just look at Groovy. Eclipse is one of the best examples of the strength of open source technology. It very effectively harnesses the talents and passions of the programming masses. To beat Eclipse, you have to beat not only the core programmers but all the plugin developers as well. The Eclipse vs. IntelliJ, etc. is similar to me as the Firefox vs. Opera kind of comparison. Yeah Opera is better in almost every way, but people will pick Firefox over it because of its plugin system.
  37. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    I am sorry, but I totally disagree with some of your arguments. First of all, there is nothing particularly unique about Eclipse's plugin system. NetBeans has it too, they're called modules and the IDE comes with a wide set of both wizards and tutorials for creating them. Here's some examples of bona fide 3rd party 100% open source plugins for NetBeans: https://nbfaceletssupport.dev.java.net/ https://nbtapestrysupport.dev.java.net/ https://nbwicketsupport.dev.java.net/ The same plugin concept exist for IDEA and there a large number of external ones, both commercial and open-source, see here: http://plugins.intellij.net/ The only thing about Eclipse's plugin system is the sheer number of them compared to their competitors, as they were the first out of the gate and hence their number of plugin writers is much bigger than their competitors. And to follow up to your other argument, there is nothing closed about NetBeans. It is 100% open source as well, including all the additional packs as well, as far as I recall.
  38. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    To see a great example of this, just look at Groovy.
    I don't think this was a wise example. I have been following the Groovy plugin for Eclipse for a while. It started off sort of working, with some debugging, but then broke and debugging stop working (and still isn't). When I try and install the plugin I get all kinds of problems (I have never managed to get the plugin tests working, as described on the Groovy site). I gave up in frustration, and the problem of managing all kinds of plugins of varying quality is one of the reasons I rarely if ever use Eclipse. I use Groovy via Netbeans. There is no debugging, but at least the plugin is easier to install and less buggy.
  39. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    Eclipse is a completely open and easy to use platform. So if IDE Foo has some great feature, it is trivial for somebody put it into Eclipse. If it's valuable to you, go get it.
    So where is the plugin that allows you to refactor uncompilable code, like you can routinely do in IDEA? Some features are simply not suited to a highly-modular plugin architecture, especially features focused on productivity. That's why people continue to buy IDEA, because they value productivity over modularity.
    The Eclipse vs. IntelliJ, etc. is similar to me as the Firefox vs. Opera kind of comparison. Yeah Opera is better in almost every way, but people will pick Firefox over it because of its plugin system.
    A browser is too generic a tool to offer much in the way of productivity boosts. Whereas an IDE can offer tight integration between programmer and code, making the programmer more productive. A better comparison would be a heart surgeon who can choose whether he wants to use generic surgical tools or specialized heart-surgery tools. Hey, the generic tools are $500 cheaper, right? Right. But being a professional, the surgeon chooses the best tools for the job, not the cheapest or most generic. The key to this analogy is to realize that modularity imposes restrictions on how well integrated a tool can be. So, even if you have a choice between 5 static code analyzers and 10 version control plugins, you're not as likely to find a version control plugin that scans your code before checkin, or whatever. Or if you do find such a plugin, it requires extra time wasted on configuration, whereas in IDEA it just works out of the box because the tool is designed with productivity in mind.
  40. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    In addition, the only inspection suite for Eclipse that's any good actually costs more than a personal license for IDEA. The irony...
  41. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    Rob, First off, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your team, and for what you have been able to achieve with IDEA. Having said that, the kind of advocacy you display here is getting tiresome to the point of sounding defensive. And interestingly, I believe that you are not understanding why your users keep using IDEA and you are completely mischaracterizing your core audience. People prefer IDEA not because it can refactor uncompilable code (Eclipse can do that too, by the way). Nor is it because "everything works right out of the box and you don't need to spend hours installing plug-ins". Your insistance at using these arguments are quite puzzling to me, because if you ask real users, I'm pretty sure these reasons will show up at the bottom of the list. People prefer Eclipse or IDEA because "it just feels more natural to them". That's it. Purely for personal reasons. The mental models of the two IDE's are different enough that if you don't like one, you'll probably like the other. It won't be because of some arcane difference in features (Eclipse and IDEA reached feature parity a long time ago), but just because developers feel they are more productive with one than the other for reasons that they sometimes can't even pinpoint themselves. They just "prefer it" over the other. -- Cedric
  42. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    Rob,

    First off, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your team, and for what you have been able to achieve with IDEA.

    Having said that, the kind of advocacy you display here is getting tiresome to the point of sounding defensive.

    And interestingly, I believe that you are not understanding why your users keep using IDEA and you are completely mischaracterizing your core audience.

    People prefer IDEA not because it can refactor uncompilable code (Eclipse can do that too, by the way). Nor is it because "everything works right out of the box and you don't need to spend hours installing plug-ins". Your insistance at using these arguments are quite puzzling to me, because if you ask real users, I'm pretty sure these reasons will show up at the bottom of the list.

    People prefer Eclipse or IDEA because "it just feels more natural to them". That's it. Purely for personal reasons.

    The mental models of the two IDE's are different enough that if you don't like one, you'll probably like the other. It won't be because of some arcane difference in features (Eclipse and IDEA reached feature parity a long time ago), but just because developers feel they are more productive with one than the other for reasons that they sometimes can't even pinpoint themselves. They just "prefer it" over the other.

    --
    Cedric
    I don't quite agree. The number one reason I hear from people using Eclipse or thinking or trying OR asking why we(my company) uses Idea is 'Eclipse is free.' That's it. No mental models. Not even features, really. People will stomach quite a bit if they feel they are saving money. I tried Idea, then Eclipse within a very short period of each other, but since money wasn't a factor at the time(the company paid), I just compared them to on their own merit and prefered Idea. That being said, it was because of Idea's mental model. Now, I just buy my own version, because for the most part, I like how Idea feels compared to Eclipse. However, think Ideas strengths are items like itenttions and pure code productivity and Eclipse's would be ubitquity and vendor support. Heck, I am currently testing a GWT plugin for Eclipse made by a third-party company that is better than Ideas. I plan to use Eclipse as a GWT editor and Idea for coding, but I'm sure some will elect just to stay in Eclipse. Get with it Idea!! :-) I think that the vast majority of developers don't care and only the most hardcore or "weird" actually have a true preference.
  43. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    The best analogue I can think of would be people preferring to 'work' with MySQL. For years you could try to tell them about the benefits of transactions or foreign keys, but you'd only get a blank stare at best. "Surely you can implement those 'transaction thingys' in PHP code, no?" It seems that in software development, 90% of the people would not even spend $25 if that could double their productivity. Part of it can be traced back to the history of free/open software, another part of it I simply cannot grasp.
  44. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    The best analogue I can think of would be people preferring to 'work' with MySQL.

    For years you could try to tell them about the benefits of transactions or foreign keys, but you'd only get a blank stare at best. "Surely you can implement those 'transaction thingys' in PHP code, no?"

    It seems that in software development, 90% of the people would not even spend $25 if that could double their productivity.

    Part of it can be traced back to the history of free/open software, another part of it I simply cannot grasp.
    So, Taras, in your analogy is Eclipse like a database without transactions or referential integrity? If that is what you mean you're seriously mistaken. Eclipse plus a well chosen commercial plug-in is a real productivity enhancer, and probably more economical than IDEA too. I found the Exadel Studio Pro plug-in ($199 if I remember) to be a big help writing Struts code. My current project uses Flex for the GUI and Adobe offers a commrcial plug-in ($499) for Eclipse that I couldn't imagine doing without. So while IDEA may offer better support for some things than Eclipse - sans plugins, Eclipse plus the plug-in of your choosing probably will do at least well as IDEA. Incidentally, if you are going to be doing FLEX development IDEA and NetBeans are not options. Maybe Adobe will agree to support those platforms too since they want mindshare. When it comes to Flex development, writing a Flex app. without the commercial tool is like building a house without a nail gun. You can do it but you are throwing away money. I agree completely with your point about spending money for good tools. They are worth it, and it looks like Eclipse supports more of them right now than the other options.
  45. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    Dean, The post was meant to be a reflection on the general 'stuff has to be free' attitude, not on any specific tool (commercial or free). In addition, I think that the current version of the Flex tool is very bare-bones, and hardly worth the money.
  46. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    I didn't mean to give the impression that the current version of Flex Builder 2 is of high quality. Far from it. It needs a lot of work, especially some re-architecting so it doesn't demand that your project be a Flex project. That having been said, as someone new to Flex development I've found it very valuable and quite worth (my client's) money. Maybe experienced Flex developers could get their work done as quickly using Adobe's free command line tools, but those of us new to Flex 2 syntax benefit greatly from Flex Builder as underwhelming as it is. A simple cost benefit analysis: Say a developer costs $10,000 per month (that's probably low but it makes the analysis simple). A Flex Builder 2 license costs 5% of that. So if Flex Builder gives you 5% greater productivity for one month you've broken even. Any more productivity than that in the first month or anything at all in the future means you're money ahead. In my experience Flex Builder gave me much more than 5% greater productivity compared to combing the docs to figure out ActionScript and mxml syntax. So in spite of the current quality of Flex Builder 2 it's definitely worth the money.
  47. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    I remember in another IDEA (or Eclipse) related thread, someone said using IDEA is like driving BMW and using Eclipse is like driving Toyota. That is completely ball shit.
  48. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    I remember in another IDEA (or Eclipse) related thread, someone said using IDEA is like driving BMW and using Eclipse is like driving Toyota. That is completely ball shit.
    Looks like TSS needs the Profanity Platform to filter its IDE wars discussions.
  49. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    All the plugins spread all over tarnation (like they are) don't amount to anything if I can't code with speed. I've tried all the IDE's - especially Eclipse (for over a year) - and they all (except IDEA) suffer from one problem: developers spend more time mucking around with the tool than they do building things with the tool. As a Linux user, I understand that tinkering with the toolset has its appeal and advantages, but when I'm in crunch mode, I just want the IDE to work for me, I want to play it like an instrument and I want music to come out of it. I want to code without thinking about the IDE. IntelliJ is the only tool that has ever allowed that. And frankly, with Eclipse's clunky IBM-esque convoluted interface, abysmal searching and code navigation, lame menuing and inconsistent synchronization - not to mention the never-ending install purgatory due to the plugin "feature", I feel like the marionette is sitting at the keyboard and I'm just trying to work the strings, when things would just be simpler with me sitting at the keyboard myself. I'll fork out the $300 bucks to keep current on IntelliJ - even if it comes out of my own pocket. Yeah, IntelliJ has a bug now and then, but I've had Eclipse blow up on me and die far more often.
  50. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    And please, don't claim it's too hard or confusing or whatever to find the right plugin. You call yourself a developer, but you can't search for " eclipse." That's usually all you have to do to find an Eclipse plugin for what you need.
    You'd have to admit that aspect is the most difficult one in dealing with Eclipse, though, wouldn't you? In some cases it's easy to define "Feature X" with some commonly used acronym, but in others people are using different terms to describe functionality and you might not even know you have choices or where the nuggets are. The opposite end of that is having, say, scores of XML plugins to choose from for different tasks. It's a good problem to have and the flexibility of the architecture keeps Eclipse competitive as you point out, but it's still a problem. ---Pete http://nerdguru.net
  51. JBoss IDE (based on Eclipse)[ Go to top ]

    I'm surprised by how civilised this thread still is, seeing that 'whats the best IDE' discussions tend to degenerate after a few posts. Fact is , every developer has their favourite IDE, and it will take a *big feature* to shift them from that. Tools like Ant and Maven mean that a team can use mixed IDE's without a problem. All the tools (can) support CVS, Subversion and pretty much any other requirement (to a greater or lesser extent). One of the 'big features to shift' for me could be the Ruby support in Netbeans - I'm currently a big fan of Eclipse (or rather Eclipse bundled with a set of great plugins - in the form of JBoss IDE). Paul , Technology in Plain English
  52. Re: Missing the Point[ Go to top ]

    Maybe this kind of review is useful to IT department Java devs? Maybe not even to them actually. This guys doesn't even understand why Eclipse is so popular.
    So the article missed the point because Eclipse wasn't declared the absolute winner. BTW, there is support for other languages in NetBeans and IDEA, and arguably is better than Eclipse's. Javier
  53. Editing capabilities[ Go to top ]

    There was no mention of general editing capabilities, and for me that is one of the most important features of an IDE. Having good intuitive key-strokes so I can perform advanced editing without having to touch the mouse is a huge value-add. For these, IntelliJ rocks and NetBeans is not even in a contender. Features such as being able to copy or cut a line without even selecting it, or the ability to select ever increasing (or decreasing) blocks, or ability to edit "columns" of text, merge lines, diff against clipboard, navigate thru changes between local version and CVS version right in the code-editor all with one key stroke, these are major productivity boosts and for these IntelliJ has no peers.
  54. Good news - I have been using the Selena EAP and it almost never freezes. If you don't mind using a beta (it is very stable and believe me I abuse it!) you can download it from http://www.intellij.net/eap/ Also, a while back the IntelliJ folks gave me some recommendations: In the file C:\Program Files\JetBrains\IntelliJ IDEA 6763\bin\idea.properties, the following properties should point to a local drive not a network drive, so modify them if necessary. I have them configured as follows: idea.config.path=c:/.IntelliJIdea50/config idea.system.path=c:/.IntelliJIdea50/system idea.plugins.path=c:/.IntelliJIdea50/config/plugins Also, try using the following settings for the vmoptions (on my machine that's on C:\Program Files\JetBrains\IntelliJ IDEA 6763\bin\idea.exe.vmoptions) You may want to try these: -Xms128m -Xmx512m -XX:MaxPermSize=92m -XX:JavaPriority10_To_OSPriority=10 -XX:JavaPriority9_To_OSPriority=9 -XX:+UseParNewGC -ea -server -Dsun.awt.keepWorkingSetOnMinimize=true -agentlib:yjpagen
  55. I see no reason why Jdeveloper will not be one of the contenders. It is complete and integrated and supports complete life cycle with features for modeling, coding, debugging, testing, profiling, tuning, and deploying. Supports swing, j2ee, soa and db development.
  56. Modules vs workspaces[ Go to top ]

    Another feature missing from the comparison is the ability to organize the basic units of work. Eclipse suffers [IMHO] from the flat workspace model. IDEA allows a nested project/module organization [and the EAP for IDEA 7 adds additional levels] allowing a good adaptation to many existing project structures. [And yes, I think JDeveloper should have been part of the comparison.]
  57. War, there is no war, why Java needs war?
  58. Lomboz[ Go to top ]

    Any Lomboz user out there?
  59. Eclipse now can take advantage of Exadel Studio Pro plugin that used to cost $399. It will be open sourced this summer and RedHat will manage it and it's free to download now. MyEclipse does not even come close to Exadel Studio pro. JSF, and Struts support is far better than any other plugin. So have fun and long live Eclipse!
  60. +1 for Clipse wid Exadel Studio sudhir nimavat http://www.jyog.com
  61. I admit I am looking forward to seeing what Red Hat will do with Exadel, JBoss and Seam. If they execute it to the fullest potential, it will be the killer JSF development environment,
  62. I might be biased here, but a title of "Eclipse, NetBeans, and IntelliJ: Assessing the Survivors of the Java IDE Wars" indicates to me that there is no other IDE out there. So the title better been "Eclipse, NetBeans, and IntelliJ: Assessing the IDEs I've tested and I consider survivors of the Java IDE Wars" How does the author explain that JDeveloper has won the last two RadRace challenges at JavaPolis? Ignorance is a bad advisor when it comes to writing serious articles. Sorry man, next time. Frank
  63. Actually, the 2006/7 winner used eclipse. There was no "winner" the previous year, although the 3 teams that came closest to completing the application did use JDeveloper. 2005 RADRace Results 2006/7 RADRace Results
  64. Just to get the facts straight, Ivan from radrace.org is organizing two different public rad race events: the "original" version, open to teams using any technology or tools, and the "Javapolis" version, open to teams using any tool but only Java technology. The first link you include in your post is pointing to the results of the Javapolis 2005 radrace - which is relevant to the thread here; the second link you include is pointing to the results of the "original" radrace 2006/7. The results of the Javapolis 2006 Radrace are found here : http://www.radrace.org/en/JPed_2006/JP_report_2006.html : out of the seven team, two were using JDeveloper, two were using Eclipse (3 if you count Rational App Developer). The two ex-aequo winners were one of the teams using JDeveloper and the team using Rational. So stating that "the 2006/7 winner used eclipse" is a bit of a stretch... (or based on looking at the results of the "other" radrace). As far as Javapolis 2005 radrace is concerned, out of the 11 teams, 3 were using JDeveloper, 6 using Eclipse (including WebSphere App Developer), 3 IntelliJ (one of the team used both Eclipse and IntelliJ). Three teams arrived ahead of all the others and they were the ones using JDeveloper. In most races, that's a reasonable definition of a winner. This being said, whether it's JDeveloper, Eclipse or whatever other IDE, the list of what each of the teams have been using is much more than just an IDE.
  65. JDeveloper should has its place[ Go to top ]

    I'm curious that why the mainstream media keeping omit JDeveloper when they start talking about Java IDE. Is it because of ORACLE? I think JDeveloper make a great progress since 10.1.3. It's really easy to use compared with eclipse. Omitting can't cover the truth that JDeveloper is a big surprise in this field.
  66. Re: JDeveloper should has its place[ Go to top ]

    Java Blog
  67. Eclipse is enough for web development. Java Servlet tutorials, JSP tutorials