eWeek: Spring's Interface21 for sale? Apparently not

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News: eWeek: Spring's Interface21 for sale? Apparently not

  1. Darryl K. Taft, in eWeek, has written "Spring is in the Air?," asking if Interface21, the company behind the popular open source framework, is likely to be acquired. The answer? No, it isn't, despite constant rumors - Rod Johnson says the plan is to continue to grow the company organically.
    Just two weeks ago, the word in the enterprise Java world was that Oracle, following on the heels of its acquisition of Tangosol, was closing in on Interface21 to get a hold of the popular Spring Framework, a lightweight alternative to J2EE (Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition)—now known simply as Java Platform, Enterprise Edition or JEE (Java EE). But Rod Johnson, CEO of London-based Interface21 and founder of the Spring Framework, responded to that issue succinctly. "We're not negotiating with anyone," he said. "We plan to remain independent."
    There are conclusions drawn between JBoss and Interface21, of course - with the purchase of JBoss by Red Hat, many see companies like Interface21 as some of the most valuable potential acquisitions around. (As the article suggests, chances are that companies have tried already!) However, the companies are different, with different underlying philosophies:
    ...in a blog post last week, Marc Fleury, founder of JBoss who sold the company to Red Hat and subsequently retired, highlighted some of the differences between his company and its culture and Interface21 and the [Spring users]. In his post, which pokes fun at Johnson and Choksi for saying they were fans of his, Fleury writes: "The English (and people from Anglo-Saxon cultures) tend to find the French 'rude' because our ethics and Cartesian bias value 'telling it like it is' and encourage argumentative conflict. The counterpoint is that the French tend to find the Brits to be insufferable hypocrites and phonies, probably because their 'ethics' usually involve pretending to be being nice to people and not wanting to offend them." What can you say? Fleury's French, Johnson is British. I've dealt with both guys, though I have to admit I am more familiar with Fleury. It's sort of like the old Prince versus Michael Jackson rivalry (before Jacko got the wacko label). They played to similar audiences, had grudging respect for one another, but little love— though they'd sneak into each other's concerts to keep an eye on the competition. They have different styles, but essentially they want the same things. JBoss has been in-your-face aggressive at times. Being a ground breaker means sometimes you have to get a little dirty.
    Hrm, I thought Rod was from Australia, not Britain... but last, one other potentially interesting takeaway from the editorial: a name for Spring users!
    I've actually been trying to find the right term for Spring devotees. JBoss committers are JBossians, and don't you forget it. But what's a Spring committer? I'm torn between Springer, Springster and Springhead.
    Personally, I'm not sure that there's a name required: Spring is so pervasive that it's easy to see Spring non-users as being slightly outdated - and therefore non-users would deserve a name, rather than Spring users. (Think something like "dinosaurs," except lacking the strong negative connotation, perhaps.) What do you think?

    Threaded Messages (20)

  2. So that Darryl Taft is really on the ball then...
  3. stay independent[ Go to top ]

    The longer Springs remains independent the more marketshare and mindshare it picks up. As soon as it is bought is when I start hedging my bets with another IOC framework. Loose or Guice I say. Spring the "product" is all about Rod's methodical and calm way of building an alternative to JEE through communication, transaparency, and by staying on message - oh and actually having a better mousetrap. It will be interesting to see Spring stay independent while working with other containers while stressing an OSGi container strategy. JBoss is just another RedHat RPM at this point. Fleury is so 5 minutes ago. Leave him on Elbe
  4. It's not really that case that Brits find French people rude. It's just that *everybody* finds Marc Fleury rude. And yes, Rod is definitely an Aussie. Two nanoseconds listening to him speak is enough to confirm that.
  5. Gossip! gossip! We want gossip![ Go to top ]

    "We're not ones to go 'round spreadin' rumors/Well, really we're just not the gossipy kind;/No, you'll never hear one of us repeatin' gossip,/So you better be sure and listen close the first time!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hee_Haw
  6. Gossip? How about: http://marcf.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-two-biggest-fans.html And for kicks, check out the URL of the picture ;-) Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
  7. And for kicks, check out the URL of the picture ;-)
    Man, that was a big LOL. Thanks
  8. If Rod Johnson had been "Marc Fleury" and was commenting on Marc Fleury, here is what the interview would have sounded like. Dana Blankenhorn: "I sat down with Marc Fleury, two years ago, he sounded a lot like you, what do you think of Marc?" Rod Johnson: "Marc Fleury? I hate his guts, what a prick. I am jealous. I hope he dies a horrible death. I can't stand the thought that that ******* made a lot money," starts to foam slightly at the mouth.
    You have to respect how marc puts the professional into professional opensource
  9. You have to respect how marc puts the professional into professional opensource
    OK, that's funny. But you have to admit that here's a guy who has basically been "retired" for a year and yet can still stir up such public controversy ;-) Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: The Java Data Grid
  10. Shush. Spring's programming model is a copy of Hibernate's and then AspectJ (especially now that Adrian has joined interface) is a copy of JBoss AOP. And Rod is a copy of Gavin King actually. And you Cameron are a decent copy of Hani. And your product is a copy of a HashMap how do you live with that ? =)
  11. .. how do you live with that ? =)
    Quite comfortably. ;-) Peace, Cameron Purdy Tangosol Coherence: The Enterprise HashMap
  12. I don't understand what races have to do here...
  13. What do I think?[ Go to top ]

    I think that until Spring stops its regular two-minute hates against all things JBoss and actually manages to put out a suite of examples of the sort that are in Seam, I'll continue happily being a "dinosaur". I think that Spring is a terrific monument to design patterns, and that you can't go a line of code without being forced to think about Singletons and Factories. I think that the rest of the world is still laughing at such antiquated mechanisms that Java programmers are forced to go through because of the glacial evolution of the language, and that Spring does precious little to advance that state of the art. And I'm not even French.
  14. Re: What do I think?[ Go to top ]

    "Two-minute hates against all things JBoss"? I read Rod's first two books. I remember them both making a number of reasonable claims against using EJBs for certain use cases, while also pointing out use cases where EJBs are a good choice. I don't remember a single dig against JBoss. And I don't remember when the Spring folks announced that Spring is a replacement for an app server. I would guess that 99% of Spring users deploy applications containing the Spring jar onto application servers - including JBoss. I find posts like yours amusing. Is there a war going on out there between Spring and JBoss users? Do we all need to pick a side? Of course, there are Spring zealots that seem to think so as well, based on their posts. Though I don't recall any of the folks in charge of Spring making such posts - while I do seem to recall quite a few from Bill Burke and Marc Fluery. I believe the reality is that the vast majority of developers out there are just interested in using products that make their lives easier. I've used Spring for a number of years now because I feel it makes a number of things much easier to do, and I'm very interested in how Seam could make things easier. I'd love it if the Seam website had a page on it that showed how common problems are solved using Spring, and how they can then more easily be solved using Seam (preferably without making me feel stupid for using Spring). I imagine most rational developers feel this way too, particularly since we're not paid to use Spring or JBoss or WebLogic or anything else - we're paid to build things that meet requirements. But I assume there will always be the Chuck Adams's of the world, imagining things like "the rest of the world is still laughing at such antiquated mechanisms" or that people consider him a "dinosaur" for some inexplicable reason. But of course, I enjoy reading those posts, so I shouldn't complain. =)
  15. Re: What do I think?[ Go to top ]

    Is there a war going on out there between Spring and JBoss users? Do we all need to pick a side?
    I don't think that there is a war. A war generally requires more than one side to fight, and I just haven't seen the Spring guys do so. Whomever is perceived to be on top takes the hit. Several years ago Weblogic got it. Oracle got it. Microsoft got it. Hibernate got it. Struts got it and now Spring get it. I think that Java developers all over the industry have looked at Spring and decided that it is a best of breed solution and some people don't like that. Some people always like to attack whatever is popular. Some get angry that whatever they favored didn't get selected. Few people, I suspect, used Spring because they thought it was popular. They used it because it delivered what was promised which was easier, cleaner development. It got popular because of this.
  16. Re: What do I think?[ Go to top ]

    Is there a war going on out there between Spring and JBoss users? Do we all need to pick a side?


    I don't think that there is a war. A war generally requires more than one side to fight, and I just haven't seen the Spring guys do so.

    Whomever is perceived to be on top takes the hit. Several years ago Weblogic got it. Oracle got it. Microsoft got it. Hibernate got it. Struts got it and now Spring get it.

    I think that Java developers all over the industry have looked at Spring and decided that it is a best of breed solution and some people don't like that. Some people always like to attack whatever is popular. Some get angry that whatever they favored didn't get selected.

    Few people, I suspect, used Spring because they thought it was popular. They used it because it delivered what was promised which was easier, cleaner development.

    It got popular because of this.
    Absolutely. +1
  17. Spring +[ Go to top ]

    Spring is much more professional, reasonable, rational and mature than JBoss. Rod brings light and insight to the industry. Fleury hurls FUD thunderbolts. For example, if JBoss is so "professional" why can't they have coherent and readable docs. Its been 7 years already! As any JBoss user knows, their docs plainly suck - giving credence to the TCO argument that JBoss is *not* the cheaper solution when compared to commercial vendors. When I first read Rod's first book in Dec 2002, it immediately struck a chord with me - here's a guy who has used EJBs and doesn't just rag on them - he presents a logical argument as to their shortcomings and presents reasonable alternatives. Nothing to do with English and French - that's so retro 19th century.
  18. Re: What do I think?[ Go to top ]

    "Two-minute hates against all things JBoss"? I read Rod's first two books. I remember them both making a number of reasonable claims against using EJBs for certain use cases, while also pointing out use cases where EJBs are a good choice. I don't remember a single dig against JBoss. And I don't remember when the Spring folks announced that Spring is a replacement for an app server. I would guess that 99% of Spring users deploy applications containing the Spring jar onto application servers - including JBoss.
    This is spot on. I read "Expert 1:1" too, and I didn't see EJB bashing. I do recall reasoned discussion about when to use and not use EJB. Geez, look on page 22: "Questionable Arguments For Using EJB" and "Compelling Arguments For Using EJB". It's the first chapter, not buried deep in the text. What I did see was a developer who had thought about and found a better way that worked for his consulting gigs. I deploy Spring apps on Tomcat, Jetty, and WebLogic. It plays nicely with all of them. I don't believe they're trying to do away with app servers. The apps we're written in Spring have worked flawlessly. Our EJB-based apps don't have nearly as good a track record. I went to Cameron's link http://marcf.blogspot.com/2007/04/my-two-biggest-fans.html and read Marc's thoughts. Wacky. Crazy. Where does he get this stuff? English != Aussie. Proof that all the money Marc got has allowed him to buy better drugs. Good, funny press though.
  19. Whatever Marc Fleury has to say about Rod Johnson, he has to concede Rod a point: Rod was the little boy pointing a finger to the King's invisible clothes built with EJB's (I don’t think it was King Marc, BTW). And he didn't stop there: he built an easier, simpler, leaner and much more productive framework than the gargantuan EJB spec. And yes, *I do mind* singletons and factories, but in my last 3 applications we coded about 500 classes, and none of them is a singleton. I just let Spring to take care of “singlentonism” and I care about business logic.
  20. English teacher, someone?[ Go to top ]

    There's no common sense in common sence, I know...ooops
  21. +1