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News: Java is Doomed!

  1. Java is Doomed! (40 messages)

    David Herron wrote a blog post inspired by an old C|NET article from October, 1997, which listed Java as one of 10 technologies at the time that "didn't stand a chance." Herron and the article he references point out that Java has apparently always been dying for quite some time and yet... somehow it keeps thriving. As Herron notes, news of Java's death have been greatly exaggerated. From the editor: If the TIOBE Programming Community Index is to be believed, Java not only is thriving but it's the most frequently used applications programming language, with 40% more developers than C, its closest competitor. Newer programming languages, like the copycat C# or the faddish Ruby, are not even among the top 5. On the other hand, VisualBasic, the one language many would be happy to see go, stubbornly clings to one of the top spots on the list. What has helped ensure Java's permanence? What would you recommend to Sun and the JCP do to preserve Java's leadership as a programming language and environment? What features would you like to see (or would deprecate!) in Java that would extend the problem domains where it's used and its overall longevity?

    Threaded Messages (40)

  2. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    Add: 1. function pointers* 2. primitive decimal types 3. a decent Date class* 4. generics compatible arrays 5. a way to relate packages for access control Don't add: 1. native XML syntax 2. native SQL syntax * currently being added, as I understand it
  3. yes, the "java is dying" debate has reached an absurd climax. I would hope that, at least for now, we can put it aside. I just wanted to post the link to the CNET prediction because it was so apropos to the recent debate/rage re: Java's long-term viability. Let me put it this way: being the script junkie that I am, if I can tap into the Java platform using whatever script of choice, then I'm sold. I realize it's not quite there, but there are certainly choices, and it's moving even further in the scripting interface direction - all of which I applaud. For me, it's all about the platform. Development in the form of writing out programs in pure Java is not something I particularly care about. -John Mark http://www.hyperic.com/
  4. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    on top of that: Literal maps + arrays in a unified syntax (as suggested by Stephen Coulebourne : http://www.jroller.com/scolebourne/date/200702 eg: [ "a" : 1, "b" : 2 ] for maps etc. (not unlike python, but with type information indicated on the left hand side and with sensible coercion from literals).
  5. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    on top of that:

    Literal maps + arrays in a unified syntax (as suggested by Stephen Coulebourne : http://www.jroller.com/scolebourne/date/200702

    eg:

    [ "a" : 1, "b" : 2 ] for maps etc. (not unlike python, but with type information indicated on the left hand side and with sensible coercion from literals).
    Except occasionally for tests, I pretty much never need to hardcode values like these. And when I do, I usually use: new HashMap() {{ put(a, b); put(c, d); }} which is not that much more verbose than the literal syntax. -- Cedric http://testng.org
  6. Circle the Wagons Friday[ Go to top ]

    TSS might as well merge with Javalobby.
  7. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    If Java is the most widespread language, it can only indicate that it's a commodity, and even that - at best. In no way does it say anything about its objective qualities as a modern programming language. Also, since a huge part of the "Java" is what people use when programming in Java (JSF, Tapestry, Spring, Struts, anybody? etc.), it's very hard to separate the actual language, from the abstract notion of Java-based development.
  8. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    If Java is the most widespread language, it can only indicate that it's a commodity, and even that - at best. In no way does it say anything about its objective qualities as a modern programming language.
    Who said that it does?
  9. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    If Java is the most widespread language, it can only indicate that it's a commodity, and even that - at best. In no way does it say anything about its objective qualities as a modern programming language.


    Who said that it does?
    More people than we wish did. How many times have you heard it used as an argument to "prove" Java's superiority? ;) I bet many.
  10. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    If Java is the most widespread language, it can only indicate that it's a commodity, and even that - at best. In no way does it say anything about its objective qualities as a modern programming language.


    Who said that it does?


    More people than we wish did. How many times have you heard it used as an argument to "prove" Java's superiority? ;) I bet many.
    Well, I meant in this thread. But I'll concede that this is a flawed argument that I have seen used often (mostly as an argument for the superiority of Windows.) There's actually a name for that fallacy: Argumentum ad populum.
  11. Something I'd like to see...[ Go to top ]

    Perhaps my single biggest peeve about Java is how opaque the JVM is to external interaction. It would be great if the JVM could provide an access object, like in Smalltalk, that would allow visibility and modification of attributes and states within the JVM itself. JMX provides some of this but it still feels distanced from having direct access to the JVM from within a program or environment. Cheers, E Non-stop action. A vulnerable hero. A quest to save the world. It's the most exciting novel of the decade: The Tesla Testament ISBN: 1-4116-7317-4 - BISAC: FIC031000
  12. from august's tech tip email... http://java.sun.com/mailers/techtips/corejava/2007/tt0807.html#2 is that the kind of thing you mean?
  13. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    Java, like any other programming languages, rised to prominence because it solved some major problems with previous generations of languages. Among them, memory management, error handling(stack trace), and lack of a standard library with the language. What are some of the major problems that we face currently in software development? In the enterprise/business software segment, Java has solved most of the big problems. But in the newer areas that are rapidly becoming mainstream, such as rich client, 3D and video, Java is badly ill-equipped. It's performance is one big problem(which I hope the introduction of the object stack will greatly improve). For now, there is no dominant languages in those fields, much like the scenario we saw in the internet development world back in the early 90s before Java. If Java can reinvent itself to take on these challenges, it can persist as the dominant programming language. Otherwise, another language will certainly rise to the occasion just as Java did over a decade ago.
  14. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    Java will be going strong for another 20 years. I will never need to learn another language and will always have ample opportunities.
  15. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    Java will be going strong for another 20 years. I will never need to learn another language and will always have ample opportunities.
    I hear the same thing from COBOL developers. There are plenty of jobs out there for COBOLers. None that I would want, though. I'm not saying Java is doomed, but not wanting to learn anything else will eventually brand you as a dinosaur. It's a very career-limiting decision.
  16. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    Looks like you gell for the flame bait.
    Java will be going strong for another 20 years. I will never need to learn another language and will always have ample opportunities.


    I hear the same thing from COBOL developers. There are plenty of jobs out there for COBOLers. None that I would want, though.

    I'm not saying Java is doomed, but not wanting to learn anything else will eventually brand you as a dinosaur. It's a very career-limiting decision.
  17. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    fell that is - stupid keyboard.
  18. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    Looks like you fell for the flame bait.
    I don't worry too much about why people post what they post. I figure it was a joke (mainly because of the author) but there are actually a lot of people who think this way.
  19. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    I'm not saying Java is doomed, but not wanting to learn anything else will eventually brand you as a dinosaur. It's a very career-limiting decision.
    I'm only in it for the money. If it didn't pay so well, I would have quit years ago.
  20. Never say never...[ Go to top ]

    I will never need to learn another language and will always have ample opportunities.
    007 Quote: "Never say never!" ;)
  21. Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    If the java community keeps writing crap like this: "Newer programming languages, like the *copycat* C# or the *faddish* Ruby, are not even among the top 5." ... then java will be doomed because we certainly will lose developers and not win any new friends.
  22. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    If the java community keeps writing crap like this:

    "Newer programming languages, like the *copycat* C# or the *faddish* Ruby, are not even among the top 5."

    ... then java will be doomed because we certainly will lose developers and not win any new friends.
    Well, I personally disagree with the "faddish" or "copycat" references. There's a lot of "fad" to ruby, in that people flock like lemmings to Rails... but that doesn't mean that Ruby (and Rails) don't have merit. They certainly do. But hey, everyone has an opinion... ... and I don't really think that we HAVE to tiptoe around hiding our opinions because they might offend others.
  23. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    There's a lot of "fad" to ruby, in that people flock like lemmings to Rails... but that doesn't mean that Ruby (and Rails) don't have merit.
    Agreed. There was merit to the Pet Rock (fad) as well. Wasn't much of a toy, but you could smash a window open with it, if you locked yourself out of your car.
    I don't really think that we HAVE to tiptoe around hiding our opinions because they might offend others.
    Agreed again. Theres no tip-toeing in Java-Land. We march and stomp. Joe and I agree on something. Sound the alarms. Roy Russo http://www.loopfuse.com
  24. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    Agreed. There was merit to the Pet Rock (fad) as well. Wasn't much of a toy, but you could smash a window open with it, if you locked yourself out of your car.
    Unless you lock your pet rock in the car. The good news is that since it is a rock you don't need to find another rock to break the window to save your pet rock. :)
  25. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    Well, I personally disagree with the "faddish" or "copycat" references. There's a lot of "fad" to ruby, in that people flock like lemmings to Rails... but that doesn't mean that Ruby (and Rails) don't have merit. They certainly do. But hey, everyone has an opinion...
    Is it really so? I mean, are people really flocking like lemmings? I think that's an impossibility since Ruby falls short in many real situations for the Enterprise. What I have seen is the same half dozen fanatics saying the same "all your problems are over" sales pitch, and it is followed by people actually trying Rails out. They try it, post some usual "wow" message on some forum and then go back to Java. I have download it myself, just to abandon it after some minutes. I think Ruby's hype is similar to Linux hype in the late 90s. It was said it would kill Windows. Not only it didn't kill Windows, but it is still the crappiest desktop around.
  26. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    I think Ruby's hype is similar to Linux hype in the late 90s. It was said it would kill Windows. Not only it didn't kill Windows, but it is still the crappiest desktop around.
    I forgot to say, despite of all the hype and attention brought to it, the tons of new users eager to "improve" it, etc, it is still the crappiest desktop around. As you see, hype alone doesn't do much.
  27. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    I forgot to say, despite of all the hype and attention brought to it, the tons of new users eager to "improve" it, etc, it is still the crappiest desktop around.

    As you see, hype alone doesn't do much.
    Windows is the crappiest desktop around.
    As you see, opinions alone don't make you right.
  28. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    Windows is the crappiest desktop around.

    As you see, opinions alone don't make you right.
    Do you affirm that Linux is better than Windows?
  29. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    Do you affirm that Linux is better than Windows?
    For what it is worth, I do.
  30. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    Well, I personally disagree with the "faddish" or "copycat" references. There's a lot of "fad" to ruby, in that people flock like lemmings to Rails... but that doesn't mean that Ruby (and Rails) don't have merit. They certainly do. But hey, everyone has an opinion...


    Is it really so? I mean, are people really flocking like lemmings? I think that's an impossibility since Ruby falls short in many real situations for the Enterprise.
    Why are you narrowing scope to the Enterprise? I work in an enterprise environment but also develop small sites for hobbyists, non-profits and small businesses. Would I like to use Java in the Enterprise and non-Enterprise? Yes. Can I? no. I had no choice but to split my brain and continue with Java development at work, but i've used RoR for all the non-enterprise. Also, i'll slightly retract the idea that the community should shy away from opinions. so i'll just call out the fact that RoR being a fad is just a little narrow-minded. i'm just one developer, but my new split personality is paying the bills. ymmv. It almost feels like I'm a Sun and Microsoft fan at the same time. Kinda like being a Yankees + Mets fan ... it's a near impossibility. =)
  31. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    We don't need to belong to one camp only. I am into java/jee for my day job and use Ruby/Rails for light, non enterprise, consumer facing projects in my spare time. Having a great time with both. Best part is I don't need to take sides in TSS flame wars. You never know what the future holds. Today's "fad" may turn into tomorrow's "platform".
  32. Re: The Future is for Java[ Go to top ]

    The future's for the visually rich, user friendly, interactive and most secure applications. I feel java should built more API's that provides more rich interactive UI's with the secure, robust, fast,scalable app. servers getting the business done. The way java has evolved from a langauge for electronic devices to the internet, mobile shows, java's developing in the right path. Keep up the pace and its got the potential be a long runner in the race.
  33. Stupid Analogy[ Go to top ]

    That's an incredibly lame analogy. Linux completely transformed the server business and is inching into desktop viability. Desktop viability is limited more by Office's closed data formats than by any feature set. (written on Ubuntu 7.04 on my transformed MacBook) -John Mark http://www.hyperic.com/
  34. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    I think Ruby's hype is similar to Linux hype in the late 90s. It was said it would kill Windows. Not only it didn't kill Windows, but it is still the crappiest desktop around.
    I guess you never used the Solaris GUI ;-) Peace, Cameron Purdy Oracle Coherence: The Java Data Grid
  35. Re: Self-dooming[ Go to top ]

    If the java community keeps writing crap like this:

    "Newer programming languages, like the *copycat* C# or the *faddish* Ruby, are not even among the top 5."

    ... then java will be doomed because we certainly will lose developers and not win any new friends.
    Ummm, I don't use Java because I like the community or anyone in it. I use it when it meets my requirements - which can sometimes include not wanting to resist inertia. It would seem pretty dumb and self-defeating to not use or consider a programming language because someone else using it said something impolitic. Can anyone come up with an example of a significant technology that failed because of some rude community members? Failures in marketing have doomed technologies for sure, but those errors mostly occur in the executive suites. Oh, wait, were you about to mention the Linux fan boys on Slashdot?
  36. I think there is a real disagreement in what should be added to Java but there is much more of a consensus in what should *not* be added. Can we all agree that XML support should not be added to Java? I'm personally more in favor of things like Reified Generics and other features that will clean up the language as opposed to adding new tricks.
  37. No, we can't agree that XML support shouldn't be added to Java.
  38. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    Doomed? That's a pretty emotive term. Java is no more doomed then C or C++. As for hype, Java has been the most hyped programming language since the beginning of time. Sun managed to out market Microsoft and thats no small achievement :^). Even Visual Basic wasn't marketed as strongly. IMO this is the problem. Vendors turning programming languages into marketable commodities. What happened to computer science? Are we all mindless lemmings to be marketed to? Or do we posses the technical nous to make technology choices of our own? Programming languages are just tools and each tool has it's place. Java is not doomed, there will be plenty of work in Java for years to come. All that has changed is that Java is no longer at the cutting edge of software development (if it ever was!). Paul.
  39. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    I wonder how much is server-side the topic, expecially if you think that in 1997 we had jdk 1.0.2/1.1 and Java was known for client-side applet. So, here we get another dried bone for the dogs. But, OK, it's still August. Guido
  40. Re: Java is Doomed![ Go to top ]

    The reason why people complain about Java is also one of the reasons why it won't go away for a long time. Java is a language in which you can create very good libraries to work in just about every platform available. A class written originally for a web application can be used in a webstart application or a mobile application. That sort of thing allows a language to maintain longevity. I wrote a pretty simple data entry/query application several years ago. The browser based UI got to be dated and the advent of AJAX caused the user community to desire UI funcationality that made them even more productive. After adding in AJAX functionality, the user community was not happy with the limitiations of AJAX. I told them that if they wanted it to act like a desktop application, they needed to make it a desktop application. So the UI was ported to a Swing/Webstart application. The application still used all of the objects and logic of the web application. It also allowed two extra features. Offline processing and a rich user experience. Now we are adding mobile capabilites. All of this is still using the core codeset that was built all those years ago. While Ruby/Python/PERL/PHP are interesting and can do some things better/nicer than Java, I think that it will take some time for one of these languages to be on a par with Java. It sounds like the people in the 90s that thought that Java would replace C++. C++ isn't going to go away anytime soon, and Java, VB and C# aren't going to go away either. This is a big world that we are all living in and there are countless things to be done in the computing world. Why do we waste our time puffing our chests out to validate our egos? If you use Java exclusively, you're aren't an idiot going down with a sinking ship. If you are moving away from Java to other languages, feel free to express the benefits of the new. But denegrating the old just makes you seem self-important with a low self-esteem. The LAMP, RoR, .NET, and JEE communities have their share of geniuses and morons. Please use these communities to educate and enlighten as opposed to denegrate and expose your insecurities. John Murray Sobetech
  41. One down hopefully: I believe that this new Java Date and Time api, which is inspired by the popular JodaTime will be a god substitute to the' old java Time and Date classes. (Ironically time will tell) http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=310