Discussions

News: Apple ships Leopard without Java 6

  1. Apple ships Leopard without Java 6 (63 messages)

    The move to ship Leopard (Mac OS X 10.5) without Java 6 is a significant sign of Sun blowing its opportunity with Java development. I wrote about this at the Apple iPhone introduction. For all of Jonathan Schwartz's talk about the opportunity for Java on mobile devices, there is no Java on iPhone. iPhone is a gated community and Java is on the outside. That leaves Java developers in a bad position. Java developers love the clean Unix-based Mac OS X environment for development. But we have been suffering with an unstable developer-only dont-run-this-in-production release of Java 6 for the past year. Mac OS X is now the getto for Java 6. I love Apple and Java. I wish Sun would do more to get Java on iPhone and Java 6 on Mac OS X. Details on Leopard and DTrace are found at http://developer.apple.com/leopard/overview The Mac OS X developer center for Java is found at http://developer.apple.com/java/. -Frank Cohen http://www.pushtotest.com

    Threaded Messages (63)

  2. It's more strange than that...[ Go to top ]

    Not only have they not included Java 6 in Leopard, but the beta that was available has now disappeared from the Apple Developer Connection site. If you still have a copy of the beta from before: don't bother, it doesn't work with Leopard. Hopefully the absence of the beta of Java 6 from the Apple site means they are working on an updated version that is compatible with Leopard - perhaps a final release? I'm rather disappointed about this as one of my reasons for switching to the Mac platform in the summer was the belief that I only had to wait a few months for Leopard and Java 6 - given that a beta was already available!
  3. Re: It's more strange than that...[ Go to top ]

    Apple due to the delays in the jdk has been a bad platform for java development always unfortunately, if you need a newer JDK parallels probably is the way to go, with a Linux installed parallely. This is a sad thing however, it is bad enough that a recent jdk usually has a year delay on Apple, but usually you could at least rely on getting the newest one with the latest os update!
  4. Bye Bye cross-plattform Java[ Go to top ]

    Just wait till Java 7 is out and you wont have the new language additions like at least a year after every other OS has it. Which means in turn that using JDK7 features will exclude OSX as a target platform. The thing that bugs me the most is that Apple has the arrogance of not even saying ONE WORD of what is going on. NOTHING. NO information at all. Besides they even have the balls to delete threads in their support forums about Java 6. Free speech anyone? Not at Apple.
  5. Re: It's more strange than that...[ Go to top ]

    Have you guys read this? http://developer.apple.com/releasenotes/Java/JavaLeopardRN/index.html
  6. It's a great pity.[ Go to top ]

    Well, I like my Mac and the advantages of the OS X. But I can't really understand why apple doesn't support jdk6. I am a Software Developer and this really hurts me. I hope there will be an update soon. P.
  7. Re: It's a great pity.[ Go to top ]

    there will not be an update soon. my sources indicate spring 2008 as the earliest possible update timeframe. in the meantime, at least on my mac, even java 5 is unstable under leopard. i have resorted to running windows.
  8. Re: It's a great pity.[ Go to top ]

    there will not be an update soon. my sources indicate spring 2008 as the earliest possible update timeframe. in the meantime, at least on my mac, even java 5 is unstable under leopard. i have resorted to running windows.
    What are your sources? Sorry to be so skeptical, but I've heard numerous peoples sources over the last year and a half about the Leopard release date and none were true. Also, what's not stable with 5 on leopard? I've been running it since Saturday and haven't run into any issues. Ilya
  9. Re: It's a great pity.[ Go to top ]

    there will not be an update soon. my sources indicate spring 2008 as the earliest possible update timeframe. in the meantime, at least on my mac, even java 5 is unstable under leopard. i have resorted to running windows.


    What are your sources? Sorry to be so skeptical, but I've heard numerous peoples sources over the last year and a half about the Leopard release date and none were true.

    Also, what's not stable with 5 on leopard? I've been running it since Saturday and haven't run into any issues.

    Ilya
    I had several crashes of Eclipse today on Leopard, while the last time I had a crash on Tiger was months ago. Of course, that could be sheer coincidence, but as I didn't change either the Eclipse version or the VM, I'm suspecting the OS upgrade.
  10. Re: It's a great pity.[ Go to top ]

    there will not be an update soon. my sources indicate spring 2008 as the earliest possible update timeframe. in the meantime, at least on my mac, even java 5 is unstable under leopard. i have resorted to running windows.


    What are your sources? Sorry to be so skeptical, but I've heard numerous peoples sources over the last year and a half about the Leopard release date and none were true.

    Also, what's not stable with 5 on leopard? I've been running it since Saturday and haven't run into any issues.

    Ilya


    I had several crashes of Eclipse today on Leopard, while the last time I had a crash on Tiger was months ago. Of course, that could be sheer coincidence, but as I didn't change either the Eclipse version or the VM, I'm suspecting the OS upgrade.
    It could easily be the crappy eclipse swt integration with carbon. I'm forced to use eclipse on mac only for flex builder purposes, otherwise I steer away from it as far as possible. I can't believe people actually find it useful after using IntelliJ.
  11. Re: It's a great pity.[ Go to top ]

    It could easily be the crappy eclipse swt integration with carbon.
    Yeah, I guess that's possible.
  12. Re: Apple ships Leopard without Java 6[ Go to top ]

    I filed a JDK 6 preview bug a few months ago and a couple of days ago got this email: This is a follow-up to Bug ID# 5120375. Engineering believes this issue has been addressed in Mac OS X Leopard. (lots of additional information in the email that I snipped). Generally I would say that Apple would release JDK 6 within a matter of days or months but no one can tell. Generally I'm very disappointed both as a developer and a vendor who sells Java software and services... How can I recommend a Mac when every new Java version requires a whole OS upgrade???
  13. "The move to ship Leopard (Mac OS X 10.5) without Java 6 is a significant sign of Sun blowing its opportunity with Java development." I'm an Apple user myself but I know to put the blame where it rightfully belongs... With Apple. Apple needs to realize that they are squandering the goodwill they have in the Java developer community. Not to worry though, Java 1.5 was also released a few days after Tiger as a separate download (through the auto update), this will probably be no different.
  14. Spotty Java 6 support on Leopard[ Go to top ]

    The problem with java on Macintosh is that the java vm is controlled by Apple not Sun. It's time for Sun to treat Apple as hostile, like Windows, and take back control of the vm. Sun needs to release a mac vm as a first class citizen like Solaris, Windows, and Linux. They did this in the past. The longer it takes Apple to release java6 the more Linux defectors, or in the case of Gosling, Solaris defectors, will grow. Why get burned by Apple latency. It reminds me of a post I had about this problem 4 years ago. http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=18280#76234
  15. It's Apple's fault[ Go to top ]

    The move to ship Leopard (Mac OS X 10.5) without Java 6 is a significant sign of Sun blowing its opportunity with Java development.
    You may be interested to know that Apple, not Sun, is responsible for providing the Mac JVM; and that this is so by Apple's choice. They licensed Java from Sun and they added significant new features for OS X integration - which are Apple's proprietary sources, Sun does not receive these sources back, even though Apple keeps receiving the latest sources from Sun. So, even if a few months ago when Apple started to drag their feet with the Java6 port Sun wanted to assume the job and finish it, they wouldn't be able because they just don't have the entire source code. They would have to re-code from scratch all the OS X-specific port and integration work that Apple did in the last several years.
  16. Get Real[ Go to top ]

    It's Apple's fault? How do you know that the reason Apple does their own JVM isn't because Sun can't be bothered? I have no knowledge one way or the other, but then again, neither does anyone else posting here (and if they did, then they shouldn't be violating their NDAs by posting about it). Maybe Leopard shipped without Java 6 because it was huge undertaking that had to be delayed by two months as it is and having Java 6 on the platform wasn't the highest priority feature? Wait a couple of months and see if there's a software update with Java 6 before you start bitching about it. Or email Sun and ask them to take responsibility for porting the JVM to the Mac like they do for other platforms.
  17. Mac OS and Java[ Go to top ]

    The thing that gtes me the most is that I need to pay to upgrade my OS if I want to use the latest JDK. I had to pay to upgrade to 10.4 to use Java 5 and now i'll have to pay to use Java 6 and above probably. I love using Macs but this just annoys me!
  18. Re: Mac OS and Java[ Go to top ]

    .. I had to pay to upgrade to 10.4 to use Java 5 and now i'll have to pay to use Java 6 and above probably...
    I would say that Win has way more annoyances than OSX and cost more, JDK is free and up to date but developing on Win is royal pain in the rear because little annoying things here and there - everywhere.
  19. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    It's Apple's fault? How do you know that the reason Apple does their own JVM isn't because Sun can't be bothered?
    When Steve Jobs makes public statements about Java like this: http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/ultimate-iphone-faqs-list-part-2/
    Jobs: "Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain."
    That was with regard to the IPhone but it demonstrates a bit of antagonism towards Java. I don't get Steve Jobs. How can someone be so smart about some things and so blindly stupid about others in the same sphere of expertise? The biggest thing that has always held the Mac back (besides the price but that's a different discussion) was the limited choices for software. Java is the most widely accepted and used (nominally) OS independent development platform. You'd think he'd want to encourage it because the more platform independent code that is written, the more people will choose the best OS to run it on. What does he think, that everyone is going to redevelop their code in Cocoa or something? I love Macs. I grew up on them. Why is Steve Jobs so intent on preventing flourishing? He just keeps "staying the course" with this walled garden strategy which has proven to be terrible decade after decade.
  20. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Why is Steve Jobs so intent on preventing flourishing? He just keeps "staying the course" with this walled garden strategy which has proven to be terrible decade after decade.
    Wow. I'm no Jobs apologist -- I do enjoy using my macbook quite a bit, and am equally frustrated by the JVM delays -- But to say his strategy is 'terrible' is quite a stretch. The company is obviously successful and flourishing under his leadership.
  21. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Why is Steve Jobs so intent on preventing flourishing? He just keeps "staying the course" with this walled garden strategy which has proven to be terrible decade after decade.


    Wow. I'm no Jobs apologist -- I do enjoy using my macbook quite a bit, and am equally frustrated by the JVM delays -- But to say his strategy is 'terrible' is quite a stretch. The company is obviously successful and flourishing under his leadership.
    What share does Mac have of OS market? 4%? Is it up to 5%? What's the rate of increase? Assuming that Windows is still 90% or more, that's 18 Windows users for every Mac user. Considering that Mac OS has pretty much always been better than Windows, I think it's pretty clear that there's something else causing the issue. Here are my personal reasons for not choosing a Mac: Expensive Hardware Limited Software choices The latter is the biggest problem, from my perspective. I might even be willing to pay more for Mac but the software thing is a killer. Steve Jobs reminds me of the professional poker player Phil Helmuth. When he loses he cries and blames everyone else. It's like he thinks that one day everyone is going to wake up and realize that Mac is better and buy one. The current situation is that (basically) everyone uses Windows so (basically) all software is written for Windows. It seems to me that Java and Mac could have a symbiotic relationship. More people writing in Java means more software for the Mac, more software for the Mac means more Mac users. More Mac users drives people to want make software for Macs (often with Java).
  22. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    The company is obviously successful and flourishing under his leadership.
    PS. I don't disagree that the company is flourishing. But the Mac is languishing. My point is that the Mac deserves a much more prominent place than it now holds and I see no other reason besides this continued self-segregation to explain it. Steve Jobs was fired from Apple specifically for not be able to accept that Mac was losing out to Wintel and adjusting his strategy. It seems that he's still unable to deal with reality to me. Don't get me wrong, he's a smart guy. He can come up with great products. It's like that scene in "A Beautiful Mind" where John Nash freaks out when he loses in a board game claiming it's impossible because his strategy was perfect. Oh and other thing is that Jobs isn't just screwing the Mac users. He's screwing the Java developers that want to support Mac. You'd think he want to support them. Instead he decides to piss in their cornflakes. Bravo!
  23. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    The company is obviously successful and flourishing under his leadership.


    PS. I don't disagree that the company is flourishing. But the Mac is languishing.
    Last quarter Apple sold more Macs (something like 2.1 million systems) than in any other quarter in the history of the company. They are the number 3 manufacturer of computers in the world. If that's languishing, I hope my company can languish too!
  24. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    The company is obviously successful and flourishing under his leadership.


    PS. I don't disagree that the company is flourishing. But the Mac is languishing.


    Last quarter Apple sold more Macs (something like 2.1 million systems) than in any other quarter in the history of the company. They are the number 3 manufacturer of computers in the world. If that's languishing, I hope my company can languish too!
    What is it about the concepts of company vs. OS do you not understand?
  25. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    What is it about the concepts of company vs. OS do you not understand?
    James, The OS is not languishing either. I just installed Leopard and it's terrific. I agree with the point I think you are making - that the Mac OS has so much more potential that is not being tapped. I have to assume that Jobs & Apple are just not interested in competing in certain markets. Considering their stock price and profit margins - and their phenomenal growth - who am I to argue? As for jdk 1.5 versus 1.6. I live in the corporate world and we are still trying to convince the platform guys that we must move to 1.5 now so I'm not sure that supporting the latest Java jdk is all that high a priority in the business market either. We're an IBM shop and IBM always lags Sun significantly in jdk versions. As for the desktop market, I'm not sure that lagging Java versions matters that much there either. If Objective-C (which I first used almost 20 years ago) had not remained proprietary we might not have ever needed something like Java - or C++. Besides, Apple does not want tons of applications. They want a sufficient number of really good applications that contribute to the Mac ecosystem. Java desktop applications never seem quite as polished or quick as the best native applications on any platform.
  26. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    The OS is not languishing either. I just installed Leopard and it's terrific.
    I don't mean it's languishing in quality, I mean it's languishing in it's market share. Yeah they are selling more but it's not a sea-change or anything.
    I agree with the point I think you are making - that the Mac OS has so much more potential that is not being tapped. I have to assume that Jobs & Apple are just not interested in competing in certain markets.
    I guess that's my issue. I wish they would stop trying to be the 'cool' computer and just be 'the' computer. I'm just a little jaded. I grew up on a Mac and loved it but eventually had to let go because of the demands of school and work. But it will always be my first love. Jobs almost killed the company with his strategy for the Mac and I don't think he's changed it much. It seems to me that their approach is really outdated.
    Considering their stock price and profit margins - and their phenomenal growth - who am I to argue?
    Yeah, maybe I am wrong but I doubt that's about the Mac. It's the iPhone and the iPod that have driven their sales. From my perspective, these are neat toys but the Mac is better than ever and is a serious OS. My father in-law has Vista and as far as I am concerned, it's a joke. Even Ms has realized what a bloated mess it has become and slimmed down the kernel. http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/10/19/Microsoft-shows-shaved-down-kernel-for-next-Windows_1.html It seems to me that now is the time to strike and pushing players out of the OS is a mistake.
    As for jdk 1.5 versus 1.6. I live in the corporate world and we are still trying to convince the platform guys that we must move to 1.5 now so I'm not sure that supporting the latest Java jdk is all that high a priority in the business market either. We're an IBM shop and IBM always lags Sun significantly in jdk versions.
    Don't get me started on IBM. But you are right, 1.6 is an incremental upgrade as someone pointed out above. The attitude of "Java doesn't matter" is what I think is crazy.
    As for the desktop market, I'm not sure that lagging Java versions matters that much there either. If Objective-C (which I first used almost 20 years ago) had not remained proprietary we might not have ever needed something like Java - or C++.
    Maybe. From my perspective, Java brings Linux into the mix too. For a developer perspective that's a big benefit. From an OS perspective, Apple's got the best product so they should want the battle. Anything that gets developers away from Windows only development is going to help Apple, even if they don't realize it.
    Besides, Apple does not want tons of applications. They want a sufficient number of really good applications that contribute to the Mac ecosystem. Java desktop applications never seem quite as polished or quick as the best native applications on any platform.
    You are right and that's exactly the policy that I believe hurts the Mac. It makes it like a really pricey Speak N' Spell. Well, that's an exaggeration. It's more like the original Atari where it came with so many games and that's it. It's an outdated way of thinking about Computers, IMO. Maybe they think the internet will eliminate the need for installed software but I think that's unlikely too.
  27. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    The company is obviously successful and flourishing under his leadership.


    PS. I don't disagree that the company is flourishing. But the Mac is languishing.


    Last quarter Apple sold more Macs (something like 2.1 million systems) than in any other quarter in the history of the company. They are the number 3 manufacturer of computers in the world. If that's languishing, I hope my company can languish too!


    What is it about the concepts of company vs. OS do you not understand?
    Again, for the slightly slow among us ... If languishing is the same as Apple selling more copies of their OS in a single quarter than any other quarter in the history of the company, then I want me some of that languishing. Of course, I'm sure Apple should have expected "languishing" comments and the like from the Java community. They have never been able to take any slight, real or perceived, as anything other than an affront to their honor. I'm sure, however, that once Java 6 is released of OS X all will be well. At least until the Java community has another hissy fit when Java 7 isn't promptly released by Apple. But we have another year or two before that happens, right? Put another way. If my OS languishing has caused me to become the third biggest computer manufacturer in the world, then I want me some of that languishing. Or, finally. You'd need to be living in some alternate reality to think that any part of Apple is languishing. They are selling more computers with OS X preinstalled than at any other point in their history. They are on their fifth major release of an operating system that gets, almost exclusively, gushing reviews. If these are the signs of languishing, then (say it all together with me) I want me some of that languishing. Of course, Apple probably expected "languishing" comments and the like from the Java community. They've never been able to take any insult, real or perceived, as anything less than an affront to their honor. I'm sure once Apple releases Java 6 for OS X everyone will go back to their regularly scheduled programming. Until Apple doesn't release Java 7 quick enough. Then I'm sure the Java community will have itself another massive hissy fit.
  28. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Again, for the slightly slow among us ...
    Right, you're inability to understand me means I'm slow.
    If languishing is the same as Apple selling more copies of their OS in a single quarter than any other quarter in the history of the company, then I want me some of that languishing.
    Great slogan but it's not really meaningful. Apple doesn't sell many operating systems compared to Microsoft. The current increase doesn't really make much of a dent in the disparity. Given that we agree (I believe) that OS X is superior to Windows. Perhaps you would like to explain why it's so much less popular.
    Of course, I'm sure Apple should have expected "languishing" comments and the like from the Java community. They have never been able to take any slight, real or perceived, as anything other than an affront to their honor.
    Ad hominem arguments are pointless.
    I'm sure, however, that once Java 6 is released of OS X all will be well. At least until the Java community has another hissy fit when Java 7 isn't promptly released by Apple. But we have another year or two before that happens, right?
    "Hissy fit"? What do you call this unseemly display of emotion?
    Put another way.

    If my OS languishing has caused me to become the third biggest computer manufacturer in the world, then I want me some of that languishing.
    Computers are a commodity and you are again demonstrating either an inability to understand my point or a purposeful attempt to confuse the issue. I'm not talking about computer hardware. I'm talking about an OS, that in everything else were equal, no rational person would choose Windows over. Yet despite it's superiority, it is installed on maybe 5% of computers in the world with windows on around 90%. Perhaps you can explain how purposely limiting your market is a good idea and why lost opportunities are a sign of great leadership.
    Or, finally.

    You'd need to be living in some alternate reality to think that any part of Apple is languishing. They are selling more computers with OS X preinstalled than at any other point in their history.
    That isn't saying much because they never really sold that many to start with relative to Windows.
    They are on their fifth major release of an operating system that gets, almost exclusively, gushing reviews.
    As I've said numerous times, it's the best desktop OS out there. You are just demonstrating some more that you don't get what I am saying.
    If these are the signs of languishing, then (say it all together with me)

    I want me some of that languishing.
    Somehow I doubt that opportunity will ever present itself to you.
  29. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Again, for the slightly slow among us ...


    Right, you're inability to understand me means I'm slow.

    Actually, it appears that I was wrong. You aren't slow. You just have a limited vocabulary and failed to grasp the meaning of the word languishing.
    If languishing is the same as Apple selling more copies of their OS in a single quarter than any other quarter in the history of the company, then I want me some of that languishing.


    Great slogan but it's not really meaningful. Apple doesn't sell many operating systems compared to Microsoft. The current increase doesn't really make much of a dent in the disparity.

    Given that we agree (I believe) that OS X is superior to Windows. Perhaps you would like to explain why it's so much less popular.

    OS X's popularity is irrelevant. Do you know what the word you are using means? Here's a little help: languish verb 1 "the plants languished and died" weaken, deteriorate, decline; wither, droop, wilt, fade, waste away; informal go downhill. antonym thrive, flourish. Please explain how, given Apple is selling more copies of OS X than in any point in their history (they just announced 2 million copies of Leopard sold in 3 days), that translates into OS X declining. On the contrary, OS X is flourishing (see what I did there, I cleverly used the dictionary to find the antonym of the word languish, I'll let you look up the word antonym on your own). The fact that it's "popularity" (again, if selling 2 million of something in 3 days means it's not popular, I'll be happy to have some of that not popular myself) isn't is high as Windows has nothing to do with whether OS X is languishing. Next time learn what the words you are using mean before using them improperly.
    Put another way.

    If my OS languishing has caused me to become the third biggest computer manufacturer in the world, then I want me some of that languishing.


    Computers are a commodity and you are again demonstrating either an inability to understand my point or a purposeful attempt to confuse the issue. I'm not talking about computer hardware. I'm talking about an OS, that in everything else were equal, no rational person would choose Windows over. Yet despite it's superiority, it is installed on maybe 5% of computers in the world with windows on around 90%.

    Perhaps you can explain how purposely limiting your market is a good idea and why lost opportunities are a sign of great leadership.
    Every system Apple sells has OS X installed. Thus, their being the third largest computer manufacturer in the world is a direct statement to the popularity of OS X. The fact that they are growing, selling more systems year of year, shows that the exact opposite of "languishing" is occurring. And I fail to see how Apple is purposefully limiting their market. What, do you think the fact that a few hundred Java developers might leave because Apple hasn't gotten Java 6 out yet is "limiting" their market? It's not like those developers were helping expand the market by writing high quality applications that are destined to run on OS X. The vast, vast majority of Java developers are writing server side applications that will eventually run on Solaris or Linux. Of the group writing server side apps, majority of them have only recently upgraded to Java 5. The few that are writing desktop apps aren't taking any advantage of the unique features of OS X. I highly doubt that Apple cares if a handful of Java desktop applications that don't look or feel right on OS X disappear. As someone else pointed out, Apple doesn't care about having the most applications, they care about having high quality applications. Go read Wil Shipley's blog regarding the differences between Mac users and Windows users and you will understand that the Mac developers Apple does care about have the exact same attitude regarding crap applications. There is no upside for Apple to rush to get Java 6 out before they're ready. If it costs them a few hundred users, so be it.
    As I've said numerous times, it's the best desktop OS out there. You are just demonstrating some more that you don't get what I am saying.
    On the contrary, you are demonstrating that *you* don't know what you are saying. Please go back and re-read the definition of languishing above.
  30. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Please explain how, given Apple is selling more copies of OS X than in any point in their history (they just announced 2 million copies of Leopard sold in 3 days), that translates into OS X declining. On the contrary, OS X is flourishing
    Hi Chris, To interject some outside observation into your colorful exchange with James (and hopefully to focus the discussion on the issue at hand), the fact that Apple is seeing a surge in sales of their OS does not invalidate the claim that Apple should provide a Java 6 VM for Mac OS X. It's in Apple's interests to expand their OS market to include Java developers. I develop both desktop and server-side apps in Java for multiple platforms, including Mac OS X, Linux/Unix, and Windows, so I find your "who cares about Java developers" attitude (and Jobs' comments about Java) a bit insulting. The whole thing smacks of arrogance. One the one hand, Apple insists on maintaining control of Java on OS X, yet will not include Java 6 on Leopard. Realistically, many Java developers can probably live with Java 5 support on Leopard, and Apple will most likely release Java 6 when it is ready. The thing you have to understand is that as Java developers, we are very, very fortunate to have a VM that runs on all the major platforms. Sun worked extremely hard to make this happen, so it concerns us when we see a major platform not supporting the latest JVM. Ian
  31. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Please explain how, given Apple is selling more copies of OS X than in any point in their history (they just announced 2 million copies of Leopard sold in 3 days), that translates into OS X declining. On the contrary, OS X is flourishing

    Hi Chris,

    To interject some outside observation into your colorful exchange with James (and hopefully to focus the discussion on the issue at hand), the fact that Apple is seeing a surge in sales of their OS does not invalidate the claim that Apple should provide a Java 6 VM for Mac OS X.
    Nope, it doesn't. And I agree, they should. I don't think I claimed otherwise.


    It's in Apple's interests to expand their OS market to include Java developers. I develop both desktop and server-side apps in Java for multiple platforms, including Mac OS X, Linux/Unix, and Windows, so I find your "who cares about Java developers" attitude (and Jobs' comments about Java) a bit insulting.
    I don't have a "who cares about Java developers" attitude, I am a Java developer. I would really like it if Apple released Java 6 for the Mac. But, I can see why it doesn't make sense for them to prioritize Java 6 over other things. As a Java desktop developer I'm sure you will agree, there just isn't much Java desktop software on the Mac. If you were Steve Jobs and had the choice between getting Objective-C 2.0 and XCode 3 done or getting Java 6 out, which would you choose?
  32. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    If you were Steve Jobs and had the choice between getting Objective-C 2.0 and XCode 3 done or getting Java 6 out, which would you choose?
    I would use my reality distortion field to make it all happen at the same time. ;-) For a company with Apple's resources, and with a working beta of Java 6, why couldn't they deliver it with Leopard? At the very least Apple could announce an expected release date for Java 6. We'll just have to wait.
  33. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    If you were Steve Jobs and had the choice between getting Objective-C 2.0 and XCode 3 done or getting Java 6 out, which would you choose?

    I would use my reality distortion field to make it all happen at the same time. ;-)

    For a company with Apple's resources, and with a working beta of Java 6, why couldn't they deliver it with Leopard?

    At the very least Apple could announce an expected release date for Java 6.

    We'll just have to wait.
    Apple isn't that big. Remember, they already needed to push Leopard back several months to get the iPhone out on time. I'm willing to bet that Apple went down to the wire to get Leopard out in October as they promised. And, unfortunately for good or bad, Apple doesn't comment on future release dates. That's just something we all need to live with.
  34. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]



    Apple isn't that big. Remember, they already needed to push Leopard back several months to get the iPhone out on time. I'm willing to bet that Apple went down to the wire to get Leopard out in October as they promised.

    And, unfortunately for good or bad, Apple doesn't comment on future release dates. That's just something we all need to live with.
    I doubt that the same team works on java and OS. Noone can be real expert for everything. It might be that their lack of resources was due to firing Java developers ;)
  35. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    If you were Steve Jobs and had the choice between getting Objective-C 2.0 and XCode 3 done or getting Java 6 out, which would you choose?
    And if it's just a priority thing then it's no big deal. But there's signs that it's more than that. Maybe it's just paranoia.
  36. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Every system Apple sells has OS X installed. Thus, their being the third largest computer manufacturer in the world is a direct statement to the popularity of OS X.
    The problem with your argument is that almost all the other manufacturers mostly sell machines pre-installed with Windows. So if we are talking about OS sales, it's Apple's sales against most of the other competitors.
    The fact that they are growing, selling more systems year of year, shows that the exact opposite of "languishing" is occurring.
    I really don't see much point in quibbling over the meaning of words. If you think that I used the wrong word, fine. I don't really care. The point is that the Mac doesn't realize it's potential and I can see no good reason for that other than specific choices made by Apple's management.
    And I fail to see how Apple is purposefully limiting their market.
    Just explain to me why Apple's share of the OS market is so small? What is causing that if it's not the management of Apple? We both agree the product is excellent, right? And it's not like they are a new company. What's the cause?
    What, do you think the fact that a few hundred Java developers might leave because Apple hasn't gotten Java 6 out yet is "limiting" their market? It's not like those developers were helping expand the market by writing high quality applications that are destined to run on OS X.
    That's the assumption, yes. And no I don't think that not providing Java 6 is going to hurt the Mac's market share. It's the larger strategy of keeping the platform closed that prevents it from taking it's rightful place in the market.
    As someone else pointed out, Apple doesn't care about having the most applications, they care about having high quality applications.
    And that's what holds them back. High quality applications are great but a mediocre application beats no application. Obviously there are consumers that are willing give up some things to have the Apple experience. But this is a limited number of people.
    On the contrary, you are demonstrating that *you* don't know what you are saying. Please go back and re-read the definition of languishing above.
    That's a pretty childish way to discuss things.
  37. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Every system Apple sells has OS X installed. Thus, their being the third largest computer manufacturer in the world is a direct statement to the popularity of OS X.


    The problem with your argument is that almost all the other manufacturers mostly sell machines pre-installed with Windows. So if we are talking about OS sales, it's Apple's sales against most of the other competitors.
    Which is, again, irrelevant to what you said.
    The fact that they are growing, selling more systems year of year, shows that the exact opposite of "languishing" is occurring.


    I really don't see much point in quibbling over the meaning of words.
    It is not "quibbling" about words when *you* choose to use a word that has nothing to do with what you really meant to say and, furthermore, is blatantly false. It's not my responsibility to ensure that a poster actually knows what the words they are using mean before responding to them. If you wanted to say that OS X doesn't have as many users as Windows that's fine. That, as a matter of fact is true. Doubt anyone would have said a word. But instead, you tried to claim that, somehow, OS X is doing poorly. Or, indeed, failing. And that is not true.
    And I fail to see how Apple is purposefully limiting their market.


    Just explain to me why Apple's share of the OS market is so small? What is causing that if it's not the management of Apple? We both agree the product is excellent, right? And it's not like they are a new company. What's the cause?
    How should I know? I'm sure there are lots of reasons. The fact that, historically, Macs have cost more than PCs. The fact that IBM was behind the PC and was orders of magnitudes larger than Apple. The fact that Microsoft gained an illegal monopoly on operating systems. The fact that OS 8 and OS 9 weren't substantially better than Windows and the company was doing very poorly during that time frame. Any or all of those or other things I didn't mention could be the cause. But, for sure, the lack of Java 6 has nothing to do with it. How about this, if Java is such a good desktop development language, why are there essentially zero commonly used desktop applications written in it on any platform? Perhaps how good or bad something is has little to do with how much it's actually used?
    What, do you think the fact that a few hundred Java developers might leave because Apple hasn't gotten Java 6 out yet is "limiting" their market? It's not like those developers were helping expand the market by writing high quality applications that are destined to run on OS X.


    That's the assumption, yes. And no I don't think that not providing Java 6 is going to hurt the Mac's market share. It's the larger strategy of keeping the platform closed that prevents it from taking it's rightful place in the market.
    Now, please explain how the Mac is closed. Apple provides at least a half dozen programming languages in their *free* for everyone development environment (including Java!, just not the version *you* want). They have reams of documentation available, for free, documenting every publicly available API. What's stopping you from developing the next great Mac application in Java right now?


    As someone else pointed out, Apple doesn't care about having the most applications, they care about having high quality applications.


    And that's what holds them back. High quality applications are great but a mediocre application beats no application. Obviously there are consumers that are willing give up some things to have the Apple experience. But this is a limited number of people.
    And here is the place where you specify what is missing. Cause I only use Macs these days and I'm not missing any software. Additionally, please specify what applications in that list would appear if only Apple had already released Java 6.
  38. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    But instead, you tried to claim that, somehow, OS X is doing poorly.
    Compared to Windows it has done poorly and I don't see the minor up-tick of sales as changing that.
    What's the cause?


    How should I know?
    So you don't know what the reason is, but you know what the reason is not?
    I'm sure there are lots of reasons. The fact that, historically, Macs have cost more than PCs.
    And who's fault is that?
    The fact that IBM was behind the PC and was orders of magnitudes larger than Apple.
    Of course but Steve Jobs decided to ignore that and continue with the same strategy.
    The fact that Microsoft gained an illegal monopoly on operating systems.
    Microsoft gained the monopoly because Apple let them.
    But, for sure, the lack of Java 6 has nothing to do with it.
    I never said it did and how could it? It's only been around for a year. The reason you did not mention is lack of software choices, specifically games. The reality is that Mac would probably not have made it if it weren't for Adobe.
    How about this, if Java is such a good desktop development language, why are there essentially zero commonly used desktop applications written in it on any platform?
    I'd have to know what you mean by commonly used. But that's the kind of attitude that I am talking about. Only the most common apps matter in Apple land.
    Perhaps how good or bad something is has little to do with how much it's actually used?
    Why would you make this point? Do you think I am arguing that popularity implies quality? Are you still unable to understand that I think Mac OS X is excellent? My whole argument rests upon that belief.
    Now, please explain how the Mac is closed.
    Well, for one, you have to buy Apple's hardware to run it. The tools come largely from Apple.
    Apple provides at least a half dozen programming languages in their *free* for everyone development environment (including Java!, just not the version *you* want).
    Which is fine if I'm just developing for a small number of platforms. Right now I am working on a desktop application for Java and not being to use 1.6 is a minor pain because of some improved APIs in the new version that I wanted to use. it's not a huge deal but the only thing that is holding us back is the Mac. 1.7 is going to include some major improvements to the GUI classes that will allow us to place animated hardware rendered 3D components in internal frame windows. I expect that Mac will hold that up too. I don't really mind a little delay. I'm more concerned that there's a chance that Apple will decide to stop supporting new versions of the JVM entirely. I don't want a particular version. I want them to continue supporting Java as it changes. There's a bit of doubt as to whether they will ever support 1.6. 1.6 isn't even really a big deal. It's 1.7 that's going to contain the real important changes, especially those for languages other than Java on the JVM.
    And here is the place where you specify what is missing. Cause I only use Macs these days and I'm not missing any software.
    Then Apple is fine for you. I personally would have trouble using it because I don't just use broad-based consumer directed software. I can't tell you a specific piece of software. It's whatever software a user wants that isn't available on the Mac.
  39. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain."
    From a desktop and device environment perspective, Jobs is right. From a server perspective I gotta think Steve doesn't need to help out people who will deploy to Linux anyway. Most Mac developers are writing apps to NOT run on the Mac. It's just a sweet Un*x interface. Apple has always been into total control even when it almost killed them in the '90s. You have to run iTunes on Windows to start your ATT service - now that's control. Apple controls the Java VM. An open VM sitting on top of OSX that Steve doesn't control probably creeps him out to no end. It's to his advantage to piss off the non-XCode using developer population.
  40. Re: Get Real[ Go to top ]

    Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain."


    From a desktop and device environment perspective, Jobs is right.
    On the desktop, maybe. As far as devices I'm not so sure about that. Java on the desktop has sucked because of some missteps by Sun, for sure. But that doesn't mean it will never be viable. I'm actually working on a desktop app for the Windows,Mac, and Linux and it works just beautifully. I'll have to trust the project leader that it works just as well on his Mac. There are also a lot of applications out there that run on Java but few people realize it. All the time I'm pointing out to Java-dismissers that their favorite tools run on Java.
    You have to run iTunes on Windows to start your ATT service - now that's control.
    Except that most iTunes users are on Windows and not a Mac. Steve Job's is trying to clutch a handful of sea water. Most people don't want a totalitarian regime controlling their computer.
    Apple controls the Java VM.

    An open VM sitting on top of OSX that Steve doesn't control probably creeps him out to no end. It's to his advantage to piss off the non-XCode using developer population.
    How is it to his advantage to piss off developers? Steve Jobs would rather have 5 bucks than 1000 nickels.
  41. No more Apple for me[ Go to top ]

    Apple is sending some strong messages to us. It's time to send some strong messages back. No more Apple gear for me. What's the point of buying hardware that's way too expensive if you can't even develop software for it.
  42. Java decline[ Go to top ]

    Jobs: "Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain."

    It does come w/ latest Ruby, Python. (for example home web page of Spring is done in Python.) Maybe, maybe, Apple is ahead of the curve. We all know multiple languages, and I am really liking D. Another angle, is that we should all be developing in VM, like VMware, XEN(amazon services) or Parallels. So you can run a great, stable OSX as host and run Unbutu, Windoze as guests, set up for multiple developmnent, ex no MinGW conflicts. And any time windowze craps out under VM, you just reset it. And last.. what exactly do you need from v6? (but I do think Apple will release 6 in coming wks like they did for 5.). .V

  43. enterprise computing[ Go to top ]

    Lack of a predictable Java direction and Lack of built in Exchange server integration keeps Macs out of the picture for enterprise computing standards. but, Apple isn't really going for that market. the fact that many (Java) developers love the Mac is a side issue for Apple -- as unfortunate as that may be for the developers who have sunk an investment into Apple equipment (myself included).
  44. Re: enterprise computing[ Go to top ]

    Lack of a predictable Java direction.
    I don't understand why that should be an issue. No one is asking them to predict where Java is going. People just want them to support a version of Java that's been out for a good while now.
  45. Re: enterprise computing[ Go to top ]

    that is what I meant... lack of predictable direction from Apple regarding their support for Java on OSX.
    Lack of a predictable Java direction.


    I don't understand why that should be an issue. No one is asking them to predict where Java is going. People just want them to support a version of Java that's been out for a good while now.
  46. Good by Apple ![ Go to top ]

    That's why I'm moving to Ubuntu. Waiting no more for their silence. Things must go on and my job won't buy this excuse. Good by Apple !
  47. Those of you, that have a broken Java 6 installation on their machine as a result of upgrading from Tiger with a Developer Preview installed may want to read this comment from an apple engineer on how to switch back to Java 5: http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2007/Oct/msg00367.html Regards, Holger
  48. opemn source JVM[ Go to top ]

    AFAIK the JVM sources are open source now. Well then, what is the Apple community holding back of porting the Linux version to OSX? Why all the bitching instead of picking up the challenge? THAT would be sending a message to Apple. IMHO.
  49. Objective C is the DSL for Mac[ Go to top ]

    With all this fuss on DSLs these days what's wrong with the idea that Objective C being the DSL for the Mac, it's a very powerful language and fits nicely. Like many here I love my Mac and I love Java (I even got a soft spot for my hacked iPhone) but all good things don't have to necessarily come in the same box. I use Parallels and VMWare with Windows, Linux and Solaris when I need other OSs and have everything I need to do 1.6 development on my Mac, it just doesn't run on OSX without another layer VM layer, bummer, at least my OS is stable. -John-
  50. Re: Objective C is the DSL for Mac[ Go to top ]

    With all this fuss on DSLs these days what's wrong with the idea that Objective C being the DSL for the Mac, it's a very powerful language and fits nicely.

    Like many here I love my Mac and I love Java (I even got a soft spot for my hacked iPhone) but all good things don't have to necessarily come in the same box. I use Parallels and VMWare with Windows, Linux and Solaris when I need other OSs and have everything I need to do 1.6 development on my Mac, it just doesn't run on OSX without another layer VM layer, bummer, at least my OS is stable.

    -John-
    Come on John, seriously:-) DSL's are good if we talk about a generic DSL that encompasses a particular domain of development. But developing applications that you want to distribute to all OS communities in Objective C, is like using a JPMorgan DSL to create financial applications for the rest of the financial communities. Ilya
  51. Re: Apple ships Leopard without Java 6[ Go to top ]

    Okay, I hate to be the ball boy running onto the court in the middle of a volley between James and Chris, but here goes. Chris, I think James calling Apple's platform "closed" has to do with an older argument about the coupling of the Mac OS to its hardware. One of Microsoft's selling points - and a cause for their own agony occasionally - is hardware vendor neutrality. (Of late, Microsoft is being more strict about what hardware it'll support which is smart of them.) Why Steve Jobs chooses NOT to support 3rd party vendors' hardware is worth volumes and would still be speculation. My own guess is that there's two sides to the story. I'm sure Steve has high requirements to achieve what they do with system design and OS stability. On the other hand, these high standards also cause him to be high maintenance so vendors may bow out of possible alliances with Apple. Speaking more anecdotally, I switched to the Mac 2 years ago, my wife last year, and my father this year. My mother-in-law is considering it as well as a friend of mine. In my limited world, Apple's presence is growing. I'll speculate that Apple's presence is growing outside of my little world. Another point of contention I've been reading in this thread is Apple's unrealized potential in achieving a greater percentage of the personal computer market share. I'm all for slow, steady growth so that adaptation can occur. I switched to the Mac for greater stability. I'd hate to lose it now because they opened up their platform to every "Tom, Dick, and Harry" hardware manufacturer. I urge people to relax a little about Java 6 not being shipped with Leopard: it'll be here. Java is too large to ignore as a development platform, especially if Apple is going to continue trying to grow a server market. We're all familiar with being up against a deadline and having to make judgments on what goes into the final release and what gets implemented post Day 1.
  52. Re: Apple ships Leopard without Java 6[ Go to top ]

    Why Steve Jobs chooses NOT to support 3rd party vendors' hardware is worth volumes and would still be speculation. My own guess is that there's two sides to the story. I'm sure Steve has high requirements to achieve what they do with system design and OS stability. On the other hand, these high standards also cause him to be high maintenance so vendors may bow out of possible alliances with Apple.

    Speaking more anecdotally, I switched to the Mac 2 years ago, my wife last year, and my father this year. My mother-in-law is considering it as well as a friend of mine. In my limited world, Apple's presence is growing. I'll speculate that Apple's presence is growing outside of my little world.

    Another point of contention I've been reading in this thread is Apple's unrealized potential in achieving a greater percentage of the personal computer market share. I'm all for slow, steady growth so that adaptation can occur. I switched to the Mac for greater stability. I'd hate to lose it now because they opened up their platform to every "Tom, Dick, and Harry" hardware manufacturer.
    Actually, I don't even think that Apple has stop selling the hardware to make big gains. The product is good enough. I think they gouge their customers a little and could even discount the hardware and make it back on OS upgrades. It seems to me that they spend a lot on advertising and designing fancy cases for their computers. I used to work in the electronics wholesale world and I'm pretty sure they take in big margins. I kind of mixed up my personal angst over Apple's history in this thread but my main point stands: without software choice Mac will never be more than niche platform. And while it's a niche platform, few people will write software for it. Apple has an opportunity to take advantage of Microsofts missteps now. Java, IMO is in a transitional period where it's become pragmatic and less of a religion. A well written Java app should be easily portable to Mac. If you are doing Java anyway (probably to support Linux) Mac support becomes a "why not?" proposition. It just seems like a poorly chosen time to leave Java hanging. If they can't do it they can't do it. But it seems like an error to me.
  53. What's in Java 6, which you miss so urgently, which isn't in Java 5? (...... that said, i would know a couple of things, but nothing, which is an absolute "killer"): all the "important" things happened with Java 5. I don't know of any libraries or frameworks which require Java 6? Maybe you can help me there. Also from my experience, enterprise reality is - has been said here before - considering and planning a move to Java 5, maybe even waiting some more time to migrate to Java 6 next year (.. from 1.4). Last but not least: it's quite a difference if your are developing a server or desktop application. For server development you really can donwload the "generic" JDK. So really no problem there. On Desktop side it's another story. There i really believe that it's not so much a problem of Macos (Jobs), but an inherent problem of Java. On the Desktop side Java is maybe (re)gaining slowly ... since Java 5. Up until then the desktop was all most totally ignored. And that's - i believe - what Job's statement which regard to Java meant. And from my prespective there is some truth there. I would really wish that the Desktop would recieve more attention from the Java Community: Databinding, Standardized Desktop and Desktop Integration, Application Framework, Higher Level GUI Components, GUI Tooling etc. Many things which are beeing adressed by JSR's .....but progressing slowly...although lately there are some signs of hope.....??! ... Now who's problem is that? Macos? Not really. And also we have a "non-standard" option for a Java Desktop application: the Eclipse RCP, which adresses most of things mentioned above .... and does'nt require Java 6. So James, again, what's your problem? What are you actually doing with Java on Macos for which you so desperately need Java 6. I wonder....
  54. So James, again, what's your problem? What are you actually doing with Java on Macos for which you so desperately need Java 6. I wonder....
    Like I already wrote, the difference between 1.5 and 1.6 is mostly just improved APIs. I'm not 100% sure but my experience is that Swing behaviors are much improved on 1.6 but it's possible some of that was in 1.5. But that's not the real issue to me. It's the consistent long delays. 1.5 was delayed, 1.6 is delayed (indefinitely?), 1.7 will surely be delayed. That means that a feature in 1.7 that I do need pretty desperately won't be generally available for the software I am writing until 2010 or later. And on a side note, to borrow an argument, I don't have any numbers (if anyone does, please link to them) but it seems to me that Java is used on the desktop in more applications that ever before. Clearly that means that it's flourishing, right?
  55. What are you actually doing with Java on Macos for which you so desperately need Java 6. I wonder....
    The thing is that most applications don't come out of thin air. I may not *absolutely* require Java 6 today, but the application I start developing now and won't be ready for a year to come surely needs to be developed on a Java 6 base. In about one year, many people will have migrated to Java 6 (it's the default download choice at Sun's site) and being 2 years old by then is even old enough to warrant its usage in the more conservative companies (although, of course the -really- conservative companies will even by then still be running on JDK 1.2 or something). Anyway the point is that software development takes time, and developers often need to develop ahead for newer versions. It's of course a no-go to develop a product on JDK 5 and at the last moment hastily convert it to use JDK 6 features.
  56. What are you actually doing with Java on Macos for which you so desperately need Java 6. I wonder....


    The thing is that most applications don't come out of thin air.

    I may not *absolutely* require Java 6 today, but the application I start developing now and won't be ready for a year to come surely needs to be developed on a Java 6 base. In about one year, many people will have migrated to Java 6 (it's the default download choice at Sun's site) and being 2 years old by then is even old enough to warrant its usage in the more conservative companies (although, of course the -really- conservative companies will even by then still be running on JDK 1.2 or something).

    Anyway the point is that software development takes time, and developers often need to develop ahead for newer versions. It's of course a no-go to develop a product on JDK 5 and at the last moment hastily convert it to use JDK 6 features.
    And a smart choice or not, but some people/ companies actually *do* rely on Java 6 now.

  57. And a smart choice or not, but some people/ companies actually *do* rely on Java 6 now.
    I would honestly say: "and why not"? Java 6 has been out for a year and has seen 3 updates since. Many companies seem to have 'only' a one-year-behind policy, so that leaves the door for Java 6 wide open.
  58. I would honestly say: "and why not"?
    I agree.
  59. And?[ Go to top ]

    The bulk of the Java world is on the server side, where MacOS is close to non-existent. As for the desktop, instead of using an IDE on the Mac to develop applications on Java 6 and up, programmers will use another OS. Much cheaper than switch server machines and migrate entire applications if you ask me. The overall impact? minimal, as Mac computers global market shares, and as Mr Jobs negative comments on Java.
  60. X11 or headless based JDK for Mac?[ Go to top ]

    As many people have pointed out already, the reason that Sun doesn't make a Mac JDK is related to the many Mac specific desktop integrations (i.e. mostly the GUI stuff). Apple went out of their way to create a JDK version that made Java applications look as native as possible. As popular belief goes, Sun could have actually done it too, but Apple insisted on doing it. The rationale being that they knew their OS better and could do a better job. People often seem to forget though that Apple does not make a full JDK implementation (like IBM or Bea does). They use the existing Sun source and 'merely' provide their own implementation for among others the GUI stuff. Now think of this; most people that *really* need the latest Java version are developers. Combine this with the fact that the overwhelming majority of developers are into serverside development these days and the conclusion is that developers don't really need the Apple specific GUI stuff. They do need some JDK to run their IDE, but a somewhat older Java version would work just as well for that. To actually test-run the serverside app they are developing an X11 or even headless JDK would serve just as well. Given the Unix base of OS X and the fact it runs on x86 hardware now, a port shouldn't be that difficult. The BSD guys have done it in the past and now that Java is opensource it should be even easier. Basically what we need is a "Darwin" JDK that can be easily installed to any custom location on an OS X system. Anyone could do this; Sun, the OpenJDK project and perhaps even Apple themselves (as part of the standalone Darwin project). This would simply allow me to run e.g. Eclipse on the Apple JDK 5, and within Eclipse configure Tomcat to run on the Darwin JDK 6.
  61. Looks like Apple is not receiving general approbation for Leopard - no wonder if the balls-up with Java is any guide: http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=896
  62. Looks like Apple is not receiving general approbation for Leopard - no wonder if the balls-up with Java is any guide:

    http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=896
    There will always be someone getting publicity from writing about the flaws that are probably not outside of the norm release flaws in any software. I've been running Leopard since last weekend and haven't experienced a single issue. Ilya
  63. This is really annoying that Apple is realeasing its operating system with out having the latest version of Java 1.6, I dont know why they dont give comments on this issue? I hope they release they latest update as soon as quickly. Thanks
  64. http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=307208