Infoworld is reporting that MS will make .NET available on non windows platforms. The article quoted Steve Ballmer MS CEO as saying, "We will embrace Java, the programming language, as a full member of the .NET suite of tools ... Some people will point out that it won't be pure Java. That's right, it will be Java to write .NET applications, rather than J2EE."
I think Microsoft is up to its old tricks. MS is trying to lure developers into writing .NET apps that can be run on Linux/Unix to make sure that .NET is a success. I would not be surprised if after a few years Microsoft drops support .NET on non-windows platforms, in the same way that MS dropped support for PPC, and Alpha in Windows 2000. I think the right way to combat the MS .NET spin machine is to constantly point out that with J2EE you have choices. If you are not happy with BEA you can switch to IBM or HP ... etc. If you are not happy with the MS .NET implementation who are you going to switch too without rewriting your app?
What do all of you think?
Read Article Here
I'd like to see how they do this. Net makes every object in the C# language into a COM or COM+ component. How will it run on UNIX/LINUX? They will have to use some other component runtime underneath.
This is a pure marketing ploy. If they can get their .NET on UNIX/LINUX, those companies that do run .NET on UNIX will fall into a trap. After their site is Netified, they drop the support and force the clients to switch OS. M$ will say that since you are NETIFIED, you can easily move the application over. And if you coded it in Java, JUMP will translate write into C#.
M$ is a marketing guru. The success all lies on how .NET performs because .NET is all hype right now.
Actually, I don't believe this is true from in terms of .Net making everything a COM or COM+ object. My understanding is that you:
a. Program in any number of languages
b. Deploy on top of the Common Language Runtime (or is it CRL?)
COM and COM+ are "old news"....
I agree that competition is always good in this space! Who cares whether it's a ploy or not?
Whole .NET picture isn't that clear to me. However .NET with just CLR is like Java with just VM.
If .NET is going to compete with J2EE, MTS has to be ported to some other platform. Of course it might be that MS has ported lot's of stuff to CLR.. But since that's beta-also, even this scenario seems quite far fetched.
It's really hard to see full-featured .NET on unix platform in couple of years. I'd say this is just marketing ploy, MS has really bad history with multiplatform stuff. NT was started as multiplatform OS, if anybody remembers.
Having read a bit about .NET, the CLR, and the Base Class Library (BCL), .NET does not turn everything into COM objects. I'm still a bit fuzzy on what object model is now being promoted within the CLR/managed environment, but is is **not** COM. COM objects are not managed and there will be a major undercurrent from MS to move all things to a managed environment. I personally don't see why the CLR couldn't be done for a non-Windows OS. The packaging of the assemblies will need to be done is some other than DLLs, but I doubt that's a showstopper. I think in the end, competition from MS will make Java better.
Also, .NET encompasses much more than the CLR and the .NET languages; SOAP and UDDI are also part of the framework. Here we have the efforts of IBM and the Apache Software Foundation to provide SOAP and UDDI toolkits for Java and Sun isn't resting on its larels either (hence, the Sun ONE stuff and the use of SOAP in ebXML).
Having been doing J2EE stuff with Sybase EAServer and iPlanet App Server, there is **definitely** a need for competition. These products will only get better (or die if they can't compete) with .NET around.
-- chris bartling --
I can guess what Microsoft's .Net for Linux/Unix architecture will be:
1. You install some small piece of code on your Linux/Unix box.
2. This code then makes calls to the rest of .Net that is installed on your Windows boxes.
3. Oh, you don't have Windows boxes? Well, I'm sorry, but to use *all* of .Net you will need Windows boxes.
If you get to step 3, you've let the camel get his nose under the tent door.
Not Surprising at all. Every big company does that to maintain it's market share. You guys are blinded by some wrong notion that J2EE, which is your legacy, is the only platform that's going to exist. But the current market statistics does not prove that at all. It will be ages before you can claim to be dominant in the market.
As far as getting it's nose under the tent door is concerned, every big company does it. So why ridicule at MS? Even Sun adopts the same strategy in it's hardware business with customized add ons to the hardware. How can it fair if Sun or IBM does and unfair if MS does the same to retain it's market share.
You guys have a lot to learn about strategy from MS. Just consoling yourself by ridiculing at a giant in this news group won't take you far. Look at the strengths of your competitor rather than just at its weaknesses. I can bet that two years down the line you guys would be taken aback and I won't be surprised if .Net would be successfully launched in the market while J2EE would still be discussed on this news group to console yourself.
You guys are forgetting that Microsoft still has the largest network externality in the Software industry and just dreaming of driving them out would never come out to be true. They also have equally crazy, competent and dedicated programmers as you guys are. But the only difference that I have observed from my personal experience is while you guys keep guessing how their .Net platform would work across platform, those guys already know in and out of how J2EE works. This makes all the difference in having a competitive advantage. While the Java community is so fragmented and unorganized, MS is highly structured and organized to have an advantage over you guys.
Hence, sitting and writing such comments against a giant and it's product will not be of much use as long as you guys don't try to figure out where they have an advantage and what are their strengths.
Yes, they will get thier nose under the tent's door and finally make business out of it. Do whatever you can to stop them. That's why it's stock price is still rock solid as compared to other technology stocks.
Hey Pravin, In the first place let me make clear that nobody here is antogonistic to MS (even if there are any please pardon me) or the relative technolgies that they have or the so called "crazy, competent and dedicated programmers" under thier belt!. Even if they have, so be it!
And let me also remind you, that even before they think of having doin' some new venture like this one, we at the "Java community programmers" are fare ahead of them to talk about the portability or any other issue you name it! and also how well it (".NET") can adapt into the rest of the OS world!
This is not a war between who is better or who is worse, but more a concern over the principles of technology that is goin' to take a new dimension. And FYI if you also want to talk about the "rock solid" stock price in the market...they are not far from being affected. And also the ethics, the moral etc etc that is being followed to stay ahead...
And last of all who wants to waste their time tryin' to pull down a company like MS, for every one knows, "every hero is bore at last!!!!" and even if they get thier nose under the tent's door and finally make business out of it, such a kind will not take 'em far!!!
Just want to share my views on this not so unrealistic .NET. Microsoft is good in user interfacing and front-end tools. Definitely it will be easier to develop and use the tools, given the fact that there are no interfacing issues with other tools(because they give everything). They have been trying to get into the enterprise software tools for a long time. MTS, ASP and COM are all aimed at that. But the problem with microsoft is, they don't care about the security and scalability. Thats where J2EE's advantage lies. But if somebody has some small applications running under .NET, I am sure BEA or Websphere will definitely provide an interface to access those applications. BEA samples have COM examples also.
I think J2EE petstore sample contains Excel based Admin application(I have not run it, though I read it in documentation) which implies that it is good to use Microsoft tools for admin client applications which don't need high performance and scalability.
People need to think well before embracing .NET and its security model. If you see Outlook, which is widely used, in my view it allowed many e-mail viruses to be created. In its drive to provide better features it allowed many things to be done by the mail client, which caused the virus authors to make use of the features. I just hope such a situation will not come out of .NET.
I think that Pravin really hit on some good points. There are some things that MS does well. But, I think his best point is that MS is well aware of J2EE capabilities.
Microsoft is following the age old rules that knowing and respecting your "enemy" makes one more capable at "fighting" the "enemy." While people in this forum may not like Microsoft, they can definitely learn something from Microsoft.
The java developers market is a bit fragmented, and as a group seem to know little about MS development. I have worked with Java for a long time. I asked about 12 or 13 people that I know (especially guys who submit to Open Source Java projects) if they had checked out C#. Only 1 person replied that he had checked it out (and he grudgingly admitted there was some really nice stuff). So, to follow on Pravin's comment, stop griping and do something to ensure the success of Java. Some of you sound like environmentalists who talk about the destruction of the rain forest, but commit no real action to helping.
Learn, what Java does right and wrong, and build it better.
Then learn what Microsoft does good and bad, and then build Java to take the good out of Microsoft, and leave the bad.
That will ensure the success of Java, no matter how good .NET is. It's also, in part, what the java Community Process is designed for. While I love Java, there are still some weak points, recognizing that will make it better. Recognizing that MS has good ideas, and using them for oursevles means that they've even done some of our work for us!
Well, I don't see it as bad news.
More competition is always better.
On the embracement of Java thing, i think they're quite limited by the remaining of 7 years license.
"I think Microsoft is up to its old tricks. "
Good luck to them , we don't want Sun to vegetate thinking that java is THE and ONLY solution for Unix platforms.
This way they're stimulated to making Java better.
So overall I think it's very good news, but I have a doubt whether it's really true.
It makes sense for Microsoft to release some murky hints about a future *nix J2EE competitor, because it forces people into a wait-and-see attitude, and that hurts J2EE.
Classic FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt). Let people compare the reality of an existing solution with the marketing hype of a coming one.
Does anybody think that Microsoft's revenue model will switch to server software sales instead of operating system sales? Does anybody think that this is not an obvious ploy?
See the Gingerbread Man
You cannot but help to admire Microsofts marketing abilities. They are a perfect example of a company that knows how to compete - and compete to win. (no-one said anything about morals...)
Can anyone tell me that... the unvieling of Micorsoft .Net is going to affect more to the downfall of Java (based on the latest layoffs in USA) or it will not ??
I am just a java developer and doesn't no much about Marketing wars.. And as a developer, I can very well realize the power of Java.. but, I am not able to realize the power Micorsoft's marketing tactings !!!!!
any consolation comments ????
the following comments are abt. the impact of .net on Java and are from a Java developer's angle only:
1)I wish to make it clear that Java as a technology has not had any downfalls.It is the US economy that has slowed down and so all software co's have slowed down irrespective of the projects/tools they are working on.With economy back on tracks Java projects will surely pick up.
2)With the release of .NET there will be an increase in the demand for Java programmers.This is bcoz
--C# is said to be very similar to Java and it will be difficult for Co's to find experienced C# programmers immediately.So they will call out for Java programmers since they are the best bet to start working on C#.Co's may provide training programs on COM/.NET to these java programmers to orient them towrds MS technologies.
3)One may recall that during 1999/2000 everyone predicted a doomsday for MainFrames and Y2k re-engineering experts.Just as this turned out to be a "Much ado about nothing" now also is the case with java.Everything abt. the future of java is being blown up too much.
4).NET might turn out to be better than J2EE but J2EE is a very powerful technology to be severely affected by .NET.
It's also very easy (especially for ASP.NET development) for 'traditional' VB programmers to enter the world of .NET by using VB.NET. Sure - VB.NET is not so powerful as C#, but it is easy to learn and to use. In many situations the use of VB.NET will be the fastest way to enter the world of .NET - especially regarding web based applications (ASP.NET).