What will be next with SpringSource?

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News: What will be next with SpringSource?

  1. What will be next with SpringSource? (105 messages)

    According to The Register:
    Sources close to SpringSource said Bearden was named president and chief operating officer "secretly" with a formal announcement planned for next week. Spring Framework founder, and open-source campaigner, Rod Johnson will remain as the chief executive of the company.
    Do you think with this is the beginning of the end of Spring in the Open Source Java community?. Here is the link of the article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/26/springsource_president_coo/

    Threaded Messages (105)

  2. According to The Register:

    Sources close to SpringSource said Bearden was named president and chief operating officer "secretly" with a formal announcement planned for next week. Spring Framework founder, and open-source campaigner, Rod Johnson will remain as the chief executive of the company.


    Do you think with this is the beginning of the end of Spring in the Open Source Java community?.

    Here is the link of the article:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/26/springsource_president_coo/
    What is sure is that relation between SS and its user community has changed and it is not going to be in the future as it has been in the past. If SS had financial problems they could have asked community for help, such as promoting known/good hackers to maintain/patch/build old builds and version and so on, so that core SS devs can stay on newer versions. This is only one option, but I am 100% sure community would have helped SS is it has been asked for help.
  3. If SS had financial problems they could have asked community for help, such as promoting known/good hackers to maintain/patch/build old builds and version and so on, so that core SS devs can stay on newer versions. This is only one option, but I am 100% sure community would have helped SS is it has been asked for help.
    I think this is the one thing about this change that really bothers me, so I'm glad you brought it up. I completely agree - there are already a ton of unpaid volunteers who help out on the Spring forums (certainly, some like Karl Moore, with 8,000+ posts, contribute much more free support than anyone officially on the Spring project). I'm certain that had SpringSource come to the community for help developing products, they would have had numerous volunteers to get day-to-day stuff done, while the control of the project remained with SpringSource (who could have focused efforts on high level planning, consulting, etc. that they could easily monetize).
  4. +1. If a donate button was available in their site, and Rod tried to call the community for money aid, I think things should get better without unnecessary karma burn and bad media reputation. Greedy VC's without professional-opensource know-how, I suppose. Surely the bad reputation will cost much much more than few new support contracts to them! Bad, unnecessary move, SS! Rgrds, JV -- julioviegas.com
  5. Someone buy SS already[ Go to top ]

    I'm so tired of hearing Spring hype. Please, some one buy SS already so the SS team can retire. :)
  6. Re: Someone buy SS already[ Go to top ]

    I'm so tired of hearing Spring hype. Please, some one buy SS already so the SS team can retire. :)
    Sounds like they're tooling for such an occurrence. Transitional management team and all that. It would also explain the enterprise subscription model they recently adopted that has everyone's undies in a bunch. More power to them. Let's take bets. Mine is on Oracle buying them. All the integration hoopla back in the day with Spring and Weblogic and then silence after the Oracle purchase. With supposedly everyone using Spring nowadays, what better way to seize the entire J2EE space.
  7. SpringSource news release[ Go to top ]

    http://www.springsource.com/content/springsource-names-president-and-chief-operating-officer Not really "secretly".
  8. Fluff[ Go to top ]

    Reading the company blurbs about their offerings, I see a lot of "certified", "tested", and "leading" with little info about what they actually do or the value they provide. Time wasted.
  9. Re: Fluff[ Go to top ]

    All this Spring deal remember me bad feelings as the case of Linux vs SCO the commercial vs open source. The image of Spring Source is in the garbage and I think after all this nobody would like to comeback to use Spring. Anyway, what we will miss about Spring?, it was just JEE without EJB, Now drop Spring and include EJB3 or even Guice in your projects. Personally I will get into JEE with EJB3 more seriously. I could use OpenEJB with Tomcat or Glassfish implementation's. Soon we will have EJB3.1, it will kick ass!.
  10. Re: Fluff[ Go to top ]

    ... Anyway, what we will miss about Spring? ...
    I'm not a Spring nor EJB expert. So sometimes I feel I like to have a comparison between stuff that can do the same thing. Thus, if you could put some comments about what you miss from Spring, I would appreciate it. Personally, what I miss from Spring is: - the ability to make any instance a Spring bean, for example, to use ehcache in a web app, just init it as a spring bean and declare that it's application-scoped. (I don't know how to do that in EJB). - the ability to put aop before / after / around any method of any spring bean. EJB3 has interceptors which may fulfill my needs but haven't got a chance to use it. - the ability to put the transaction in servlet filters --> less worry about lazy initialization exceptions. But Seam also does this, so I don't miss it much.
  11. Can someone explain to me why would naming Bearden as the COO of SpringSource would lead to the "end of Spring in the Open Source Java community"? Maybe I am missing something here, but I just can't see the co-relation between the two. Even if this was done "secretly". I hope people are not just piling their frustration with the new Spring maintenance policy on any and every thing the company does.
  12. Can someone explain to me why would naming Bearden as the COO of SpringSource would lead to the "end of Spring in the Open Source Java community"? Maybe I am missing something here, but I just can't see the co-relation between the two. Even if this was done "secretly". I hope people are not just piling their frustration with the new Spring maintenance policy on any and every thing the company does.
    Another exmaple of company that is insane about secrecy is Apple and Apple with their NDA IPhone developers are having a bad time, It seems SS it is following the very commercial steps. I have a question, It is legal to apply policies to a License in the middle of the game? It is possible to modify a license just slightly anytime?. I'm not from US so every country have different laws that's why my question.
  13. Licensing question[ Go to top ]

    I have a question, It is legal to apply policies to a License in the middle of the game? It is possible to modify a license just slightly anytime
    The way it works is when you download Spring, you are granted a license to use that code under particular conditions. The license that spells out those particular conditions happens to be the Apache License, v2. So, suppose you downloaded Spring on 1 April 2007. You were granted a license to use that code that you downloaded on 1 April 2007. SpringSource can't revoke your license to the Spring code you downloaded on 1 April 2007. The Apache License, v2 grants you a perpetual, irrevocable license to use that code. So you're all set. You can use the code you downloaded on 1 April 2007 without concern that SpringSource will somehow stop you from using that code in the way that you've been doing. Moving forward, let's suppose you download Spring on 26 September 2008. You are still granted a license to use that code under the Apache License, v2. So you still have a perpetual, irrevocable license grant to use that code that you download on 26 September 2008. From reading the 1001 messages about the new Spring maintenance policy, I understand it to be that going forward, SpringSource will still be granting licenses to use their code under the same Apache License, v2. (Yes, it may be harder to build without repository tags, but that's not a licensing issue.) So, there really is no "changing the license in the middle of the game" as it applies to the Spring code already in your possession. You have an irrevocable license to use the Spring code already in your possession. I believe your concern lies with the idea that sometime in the future, SpringSource may stop issuing new licenses under the Apache License, v2 and change it to a different license. And that's a business issue, not a legal issue. :) Hope that helps, David Flux - Java Job Scheduler. File Transfer. Workflow.
  14. I hope people are not just piling their frustration with the new Spring maintenance policy on any and every thing the company does.
    Yep. Bringing him on board might be a good thing for the company and might be a good thing for the project! I'm looking forward next versions of Spring, though I will not be updating Spring now for a some time untill it is clear what the new maintenance policy will mean in reality, what will be quality of new code, how many people will adopt it etc. Spring is and will be a great tool. Hopefully Spring Source will be able to produce excellent community versions that people will not abandon Spring, as if that happens - Spring loses lots of it's value and attractiveness. As people have transitions in the company and new people come abroad it can be that it takes time for the company to get the vision together and be able to communicate it back to the community. There seems to be a Spring in Finance seminar in London soon. http://skillsmatter.com/event/java-jee/spring-in-finance-exchange-166 Would be fun to hear the pitch and vision for Spring Framework, how it is presented to the target audience of Spring offering. If they buy it and see that Spring appserver is the greatest thing since sliced bread and purchase subscription in droves, then java community as a whole has nothing to worry about Spring's future.
  15. If they buy it and see that Spring appserver is the greatest thing since sliced bread and purchase subscription in droves
    ROFL, You could build your own appserver anytime as SS, get Tomcat and OSGI and you are set, there is nothing innovation, they are just reusing technology, I think there will be more innovation in Glassfish 3 than Spring appserver, Spring appserver is just an idea to sell to the big corporations and pay big bucks. Also the IoC you can find it already on EJB3+ or Guice or Tapestry5 and many more, the wrappers as JDBC Template you could build your self anytime, SpringMVC you could use Struts2 with xml, CoC or annotations or Wicket or Tapestry and the rest of the portfolio it is just JEE without EJB. You really show your Spring fanaticism.
  16. If they buy it and see that Spring appserver is the greatest thing since sliced bread and purchase subscription in droves

    ROFL, You could build your own appserver anytime as SS, get Tomcat and OSGI and you are set, there is nothing innovation, they are just reusing technology, I think there will be more innovation in Glassfish 3 than Spring appserver, Spring appserver is just an idea to sell to the big corporations and pay big bucks.
    My sarcasm was not well understood. My bad. As noted in my previous postings in the first thread, I am avid Glassfish fan and really looking forward modular Glassfish 3. However as I don't have any real information about the SS server, there might be some magic* and amazing value hidden somewhere... Has anyone yet actually used their server? * = sarcasm
    Also the IoC you can find it already on EJB3+ or Guice or Tapestry5 and many more, the wrappers as JDBC Template you could build your self anytime, SpringMVC you could use Struts2 with xml, CoC or annotations or Wicket or Tapestry and the rest of the portfolio it is just JEE without EJB.

    You really show your Spring fanaticism.
    I resent that kind of labeling as I am far from such. I'm very well aware the different options and how everything that is in Spring could be done could be done with other tools. For me the value in Spring has been that it provides many benefitial features in one coherent fashion, with great documentation and large adoption rate that guarantees that problems I face are most likely something that someone else has either already solved or is willing to solve with me. And do not underestimate the value in large sets of existing spring skills in consultants that can be hired to assist in projects thanks to the good namerecognition of Spring. Liking or disliking Spring is therefore not just a technical question, but business question. And since it is a business decision I was so disappointed about the maintenance policy and it's possible implications.
  17. Carlos
    ROFL, You could build your own appserver anytime as SS, get Tomcat and OSGI and you are set, there is nothing innovation, they are just reusing technology, I think there will be more innovation in Glassfish 3 than Spring appserver, Spring appserver is just an idea to sell to the big corporations and pay big bucks....
    I suggest you read the blogs linked from the bottom of this page. I think you will understand that there is a lot of genuine innovation in dm Server. I think it's pretty clear that you don't understand the complexity of the issues around using OSGi (btw, the "i" is in lower case) in the enterprise. Rgds Rod
  18. I think it's pretty clear that you don't understand the complexity of the issues around using OSGi (btw, the "i" is in lower case) in the enterprise.

    Rgds
    Rod
    If adopting OSGi (whee! Rod is also a spell checker) brings complex problems to the enterprise, it is much clearer to me that it is (yet another) technology to keep very distant from. Ciao.
  19. Spring Framework born from code from one awesome book and it supposed that this code it would be share it to the world and make an example of how really should be J2EE. His author Rod Johnson published all the code open source and with the Apache license that means I give you for free my code you can do whatever you want from it. Then after that it appears a consulting behind Spring so for the benefit of it, It is well baked and have a future, supporting it and make money with the maintenance and consulting services but lately this has changed to a complete new business model and it lost the primary essence that was a reaction to build something more lightweight and clean than J2EE. But right now, I feel all this is going in the wrong direction and Spring portfolio is getting bloated and expensive, it lost the lightweight essence.
    I think it's pretty clear that you don't understand the complexity of the issues around using OSGi (btw, the "i" is in lower case) in the enterprise. Rgds Rod
    Dear Rod, you don't need to answer me in that way you are a bright person but you are showing your ego and arrogance in that post. Regards
  20. Spring Framework born from code from one awesome book and it supposed that this code it would be share it to the world and make an example of how really should be J2EE.

    His author Rod Johnson published all the code open source and with the Apache license that means I give you for free my code you can do whatever you want from it. Then after that it appears a consulting behind Spring so for the benefit of it, It is well baked and have a future, supporting it and make money with the maintenance and consulting services but lately this has changed to a complete new business model and it lost the primary essence that was a reaction to build something more lightweight and clean than J2EE.

    But right now, I feel all this is going in the wrong direction and Spring portfolio is getting bloated and expensive, it lost the lightweight essence.

    I think it's pretty clear that you don't understand the complexity of the issues around using OSGi (btw, the "i" is in lower case) in the enterprise.

    Rgds
    Rod

    Dear Rod, you don't need to answer me in that way you are a bright person but you are showing your ego and arrogance in that post.

    Regards
    Honestly, I never considered Spring light and don't understand why people considered Spring light. Lighter than EJB? For some people it is, but not for others. Light is a matter of context. peter
  21. Re: What will be next with SpringSource?[ Go to top ]

    Honestly, I never considered Spring light and don't understand why people considered Spring light. Lighter than EJB? For some people it is, but not for others. Light is a matter of context.
    Definitely agree about it being a matter of context. I think the term "lightweight" started being tossed around in 2003 to describe Spring's container in relation to an EJB container. I believe it was considered "light" because you didn't have to implement container interfaces and you could run the container outside of an app server (thus making testing a lot easier). I'm not sure what "lightweight" should imply today though.
  22. It was light[ Go to top ]

    Honestly, I never considered Spring light and don't understand why people considered Spring light. Lighter than EJB? For some people it is, but not for others. Light is a matter of context.


    Definitely agree about it being a matter of context. I think the term "lightweight" started being tossed around in 2003 to describe Spring's container in relation to an EJB container. I believe it was considered "light" because you didn't have to implement container interfaces and you could run the container outside of an app server (thus making testing a lot easier). I'm not sure what "lightweight" should imply today though.
    Yea it was light, i remember using it way back when it was in its infancy, purely for it IoC. It was light back then, nowadays of course, by default it isnt. I suppose it really depends which version you use. Btw, I dont see what the fuss is about here. Even if SS change their licensing to be closed for future releases, which I doubt they could and would, previous versions are open source. The community can easily take that and start working on it like any other open source project. People nowadays are so dependent on open source they dont realize one of the main points about using open source software, you have control of the source. If you don't like the way its being handled by the custodians, do it yourself. Critical defect that you can't wait for the official release? Do it yourself. If you can't because of your own inability then you deserve to be in whatever mess it is you're in. Stop whining and beotching to the people who are giving you a free ride. For all those who whine about how the open source custodians owe you anything, try using closed proprietary software where you're at the mercy of the vendor...
  23. Re: It was light[ Go to top ]

    +1 In Many blogs and forums the people begin to discuss a fork of Spring, The source code is there and many people in the community have the strength to make it happen so we don't need anymore SS or just use an alternative as Guice, OpenEJB, Seam, EJB3+ etc. Remember, "one vendor lock-in" is the problem.
  24. Re: It was light[ Go to top ]

    I'm really pissed with SS folks. They played with us, I'm not sure if all the Open Source projects works like this but this makes a bad image to Open Source movement for my customers, employer, etc. After all this will put in a difficult situation to promote Open Source projects as for example Jboss, Ext-JS and now Spring. They are using the similar way as Microsoft did Embrace, Extend and Extinguish. It's like a child game or what?, They washed minds to say that Spring was the "Holy Grail" and then just give you the finger. Fork Spring people or use an alternative!.
  25. Honestly, I never considered Spring light and don't understand why people considered Spring light. Lighter than EJB? For some people it is, but not for others. Light is a matter of context.

    peter
    That is because Spring WAS lite and easy. I mean, I have never had to work with Spring, and now I am finding it too to even start learning. EJB 3.0 is a blast on the other hand.
  26. That is because Spring WAS lite and easy. I mean, I have never had to work with Spring, and now I am finding it too to even start learning. EJB 3.0 is a blast on the other hand.
    I find it puzzling that as a product adds more features, yet still retains the original usage patterns, it somehow shifts from "light" to "heavy". For example, Mac OS X added some significant new features in 10.5 such as Spaces and Time Machine, and I'm sure that made the distribution larger and more complex. But since a user isn't forced to use them and can easily ignore them - i.e. the user experience doesn't have to change - then what's the difference? I believe the same is true of the Spring distribution. If you don't need to use the JMS/AOP/Quartz/JDBC/Hibernate3/MVC/annotations/etc features, then you can easily ignore them - just don't those parts of the documentation! Your user experience will remain the same as it did in 2003 when the product had far fewer features. Now, if Spring 2.5 had required me to use it in a different way to account for all the new features, then I would certainly say, "This product has become too bloated, and it is ridiculous that I have to change how I use it". But that hasn't happened.
  27. Yeah yeah yeah everything have been discussed and I think even Rod said many times all this stuff in Faq's, interviews, etc, lately. Why bother to talk the same thing over and over, we all know that Spring team do a lot of contributions But the main question that everybody arise regarding to open source and is not yet answered it's: We will have the Spring tags, YES or NO????.
  28. Yeah yeah yeah everything have been discussed and I think even Rod said many times all this stuff in Faq's, interviews, etc, lately. Why bother to talk the same thing over and over, we all know that Spring team do a lot of contributions But the main question that everybody arise regarding to open source and is not yet answered it's:

    We will have the Spring tags, YES or NO????.
    stupid question but isn't this what's mentioned in the FAQ here: http://www.springsource.com/products/enterprise/maintenancepolicy/faq under "Will SpringSource maintenance releases beyond 3 months be tagged in the public repository?"
    There will be no tags in the repository corresponding to those releases
    marcel
  29. Re: What will be next with SpringSource?[ Go to top ]

    Yeah yeah yeah everything have been discussed and I think even Rod said many times all this stuff in Faq's, interviews, etc, lately. Why bother to talk the same thing over and over, we all know that Spring team do a lot of contributions But the main question that everybody arise regarding to open source and is not yet answered it's:

    We will have the Spring tags, YES or NO????.


    stupid question but isn't this what's mentioned in the FAQ here:

    http://www.springsource.com/products/enterprise/maintenancepolicy/faq

    under

    "Will SpringSource maintenance releases beyond 3 months be tagged in the public repository?"
    > There will be no tags in the repository corresponding to those releases

    marcel
    If you've been following the threads, you'll know he meant "Are you going to change your mind and ..."
  30. stupid question but isn't this what's mentioned in the FAQ here:
    That is/was the initial response. Spring source has been going trough internal discussions and decisions relating to that, and as I asked about it email - they requested to wait a little bit 'till. I'm looking forward responses from Spring Source in good spirit as I believe that it is in everyones interests to have a strong SS and stong and vibrant spring community. It is therefore in Spring Source's interests to have a compromise that is good for all the parties. Let's wait for Rod's proper response. If it takes a day or two, world does not come to an end in that time.
  31. stupid question but isn't this what's mentioned in the FAQ here:


    That is/was the initial response.

    Spring source has been going trough internal discussions and decisions relating to that, and as I asked about it email - they requested to wait a little bit 'till.

    I'm looking forward responses from Spring Source in good spirit as I believe that it is in everyones interests to have a strong SS and stong and vibrant spring community. It is therefore in Spring Source's interests to have a compromise that is good for all the parties.

    Let's wait for Rod's proper response. If it takes a day or two, world does not come to an end in that time.
    @Marcel Sauer: He just answered you question. Rod said by the end of this week he will have an answer about that but yeah Heimo Laukkanen is right we have to wait a little bit 'till. To be honest I'm looking to another alternatives but I admire Rod vision and his book so I think Rod will come with something great for the community. The only problem I see that he doesn't have 100% that decision and also depend a lot of the VC Spring Source have behind now.
  32. SpringSource Response[ Go to top ]

    Yesterday I announced a significant revision to our maintenance policy that should allay community concerns, while still achieving its original goals of balancing the community's needs with those of enterprise customers for long-term (paid) maintenance and support. We consulted widely in drawing up this policy. Thanks to all those who provided constructive feedback, here and elsewhere. Rgds Rod
  33. @Message #270096 A more modular approach to enterprise Java has a great many benefits, which is why overcoming the technical complexities is so important. Good commentary and discussion: Why should I care about OSGi anyway?.
  34. To dive into a little more detail, OSGi gives you proper dependency management between software modules with the benefits of:
    • accurate provisioning (small footprint)
    • versioning (reduced cost of integration)
    • dynamic update (less disruption to application users)
    • cleaner application architecture (lower development costs)
    The main complexity that OSGi introduces is in using legacy libraries, such as hibernate, which were designed for monolithic applications, so I agree you'd be wise to avoid dealing with this type of complexity. Fortunately, SpringSource has developed an application server (the dm Server - shipped today in fact) which solves this complexity so that legacy libraries can be used in a straightforward way by modular applications. So, for the first time, enterprise Java applications can reap the benefits of proper dependency management between application modules without having to deal with the complexity of integrating legacy libraries into this environment.
  35. Re: What will be next with SpringSource?[ Go to top ]

    They bought covalent to prevent Sun from buying them. Now looking back I am sure they must be kicking themselves. A Sun take over would have not only benefitted Rod & co but also the community...sigh...
  36. Re: Sun take over[ Go to top ]

    TA Sun take over would have not only benefitted Rod & co but also the community...sigh...
    I guess this was the VC's plan in the beginning: Sell the "next-generation", "de facto standard platform to build, run, and manage enterprise Java applications" to the owners of the, according to their marketing, failed old-generation JEE platform, i.e. Sun. It didn't work. Now they are switching to Plan B.
  37. I wonder who will soon publish a new framework. I'm asking the question because after a 200 comments on a thread that pretty much announce the stop of a building of release, we now have a new end of the world threat about the change in the organization of a company. Such alarming buzz on such trivial thing is, well, weird. PS : reply link still not work on opera :C
  38. It is time to make a new Open Source Portfolio and build it neutrally without having any dependency on Spring (I am sure that if your bean classes including job schedulers, JTA, etc. do not implement BeanFactoryAware/ApplicationContextAware then they can be sued with any DI container that supports init-methos and destroy method). I had created most of the facilities myself (and compiled them with AspectJ whereever required) and deployed them on Spring and Pico Container both... It worked great until I went lazy and started using Spring Portfolio offerings (such as JMX Exporter, HibernateDaoSupport etc.) rather than building my own beans... But I think its time to build independent portfolios and test them with different DI Containers including spring, Guice, Picocontainer etc.
  39. I believe that you will find that SpringSource also makes significant contributions to AspectJ. As Rod said:
    But a strong and healthy SpringSource is important to the future of Spring--and, I believe, to that of enterprise Java.
  40. What will be next? I'll tell you: we'll be reading headlines such as "SpringSource has just announced a new change in its policy. But hey, wait... looks like they changed it again since I started typing..." The new and infamous maintenance policy clearly shows how far they can go. That's the sort of thing that happens when people start to get impatient to get their bucks back. The venture capitalists are clearly taking over the company, as their anticipated ROI are not being achieved. That's pretty much it. Now, teel me: what if things don't get fixed ($$$) soon?... I have a feeling that new "interesting" moves are about to happen... Well, guys, good luck on your desperate attempts to make it a feasible business. I myself have already started to look for alternatives, and hey, that EJB spec looks nicer every time I look at it... Cheers.
  41. Should I mention that most of EJB 3.x spec came from the community use of Spring Framework? In the same way it happened with JPA (and Hibernate)? Yes, EJB 3 looks great and surely we can live without Spring from now on. But hey, don't forget to say "Thanks Rod... thanks Spring... for pushing EJB to a new level." Regards, Bruno Borges
  42. Re: What will be next with SpringSource?[ Go to top ]

    Yes, EJB 3 looks great and surely we can live without Spring from now on. But hey, don't forget to say "Thanks Rod... thanks Spring... for pushing EJB to a new level."

    Regards,
    Bruno Borges
    +1 I agree. This would not have happened without Spring and Hibernate. Personally I think anger directed at the Spring innovators is misguided. We all benefited from Rod's insight (and courage) some years back when he pointed out that J2EE was too complex - and DID something more than complain about it. So, yeah - thanks, Spring. Well done.
  43. Yes, EJB 3 looks great and surely we can live without Spring from now on. But hey, don't forget to say "Thanks Rod... thanks Spring... for pushing EJB to a new level."

    Regards,
    Bruno Borges


    +1

    I agree. This would not have happened without Spring and Hibernate. Personally I think anger directed at the Spring innovators is misguided. We all benefited from Rod's insight (and courage) some years back when he pointed out that J2EE was too complex - and DID something more than complain about it.

    So, yeah - thanks, Spring. Well done.
    I surely like to give merit to those who deserve it. The EJB3 spec is a huge improvement, thanks to the HARD WORK of the expert group. Those are the ones who actually DID something to improve the standards in this regard. So, thank you Rod, for yelling. And thank you expert group for listening and doing something about. Let's just be fair... Cheers.
  44. Should I mention that most of EJB 3.x spec came from the community use of Spring Framework?
    Spring was never an equivalent competitor to EJB as Spring marketing claimed.
  45. Spring was never an equivalent competitor to EJB as Spring marketing claimed.
    Yes, you are right about that. *Spring* never meant to be an equivalent competitor. It was the community, by using it as an _alternative_ to EJBs, that made JCP's experts wake up. So this is the value that "Spring" had put into EJB3: it made people think and care about simpler code. I will actually argue that in fact, this also helped in some how to introduce us to, by creating or remembering, methodologies like XP, Agile and many others.
  46. My dream scenario as someone who loves Java and is concerned about the future of the Java platform: - Sun Microsystems is not a very profitable company (unfortunately!), its weak stock price speaks for itself. Ideally Google should acquire Sun. Google is highly profitable, an acquisition of Sun would secure the future of the Java platform and the future of us Java professionals. Sun already had to trim down its Java development staff. But the development staff needs to be expanded urgently, in order for the Java platform to be positioned as a stronger competitor to Adobe Flex and Microsoft technologies such as .NET and Silverlight. Java is still way ahead in many areas, but the Microsoft guys are not sleeping, and even worse for Sun, Microsoft can employ an army of developers to improve .NET. - While Sun Microsystems is a weak company, it is still a powerful giant compared to SpringSource. SpringSource is nothing more than a tiny startup. It appears the company burned already through the first round of VC funding, SpringSource received its second round (series B) of venture capital financing in June. This will probably last 1 1/2 -2 years, then either another round of financing is needed or SpringSource needs to find an acquirer (which the VC guys are probably looking for already). Or we can turn the lights off. Rod Johnson deserves a lot of credit for his criticism of the old EJB 2.x standard. EJB 3.x, however, is much better than its reputation, and there is the potential to improve EJB 3.1 even further. In addition, Web Beans will revolutionize the architecture of web applications. It's annoying that the SpringSource guys try to badmouth the EJB-standard on every occasion. They do this to push their own framework and container platform (Tomcat + Osgi). I understand SpringSource's business goals. But the behavior of SpringSource is causing harm to the Java platform. Microsoft is secretly laughing about this already.
  47. Re: My dream scenario[ Go to top ]

    Java platform to be positioned as a stronger competitor to Adobe Flex and Microsoft technologies such as .NET and Silverlight.
    Java's/Sun's strength is the serverside.
  48. The venture capitalists are clearly taking over the company, as their anticipated ROI are not being achieved. That's pretty much it.
    Yep, it's as simple as that.
  49. Do you think with this is the beginning of the end of Spring in the Open Source Java community?
    No. However I do think your interpretation of the news is complete nonsense. Let's consider the facts: - I am CEO. We have a new COO to run operations: notably sales and marketing. Product strategy decisions still ultimately lie with me. - Rob Bearden has worked purely with open source companies for at least 5 years. That is, he is someone who's chosen to base his career around open source. That would be a very short career if he contributed to killing communities and, hence, companies. In fact, his operational skills have contributed to growing successful companies that produce a lot of open source software that benefits the community. As I hope is clear from the other thread, I and SpringSource are open to constructive dialog with the community. But this kind of nonsense is puerile and benefits no one. Before demonizing VC investment in general, it's worth reflecting on the open source companies that have taken VC funding and those that haven't. Those that have include MySQL, Red Hat, JBoss and many more: companies that have made great contributions to the key platforms on which we build applications today. Fortunately I think the Spring community and the enterprise Java community in general is capable of more sophisticated analysis than yours.
  50. Oh, and as for "secretly": We put out a press release about Bearden's appointment.
  51. It is only natural[ Go to top ]

    Call it karma, call it yin and yang, or call it "for every action there is an equal ....." I think in the long run things like this are good for the open source community. We should not have taboo business models. Full creativity of code and business model should exist. The best will succeed, the bad will live in the dark corners of the JCP or the shadows of a company in search of the almighty dollar. But rest assured there will always be new developers ready to play the open source game, ready to pick up the torch and bring us our next "must have", or our next drink of Kool Aid, or hopefully the next wave in game changing technology. As long as the code is open source, then IMO everything/anything is fair game. Plus it is the best show in town these days ;)
  52. two-face[ Go to top ]

    i can understand people arguing both sides of the debate and i will do so in this post as well. -----in defense of the people against the decision----- curiously, i havent seen anyone mention the possibility of forking the project. i mean its open source, if you dont like the way something is being done, fork it and take it down a different path. just look at fedora/redhat/centos or linux in general. ill admit, rod is the brainchild behind spring and it all started back with its initial description in J2EE Design & Development (one of my all time favorite books), and losing rod would be a big blow but there are many other people out there with just as much vision who could lead the fork. the most groundbreaking contributions (IoC and the mental migration it has inspired to strive for less complexity) are here to stay. most of the stuff rod and the other top contributors created is really awesome, but lets face it, not everything rod touches turns to gold. take the HibernateTemplate stuff. even gavin king thinks its crap. people seem to forget that if they have a serious problem with the decision, they can simply take the source and do whatever they want with it. many of the people in this thread have admitted that one of the great things about rod is that he not only showed distaste for J2EE and its complexity but that he actually created an alternative. instead of just whining about the future of spring, why doesn't someone stand up and do something about it?? -----in defense of spring source----- people using spring can be broken into two groups: 1. people who's businesses depend on it 2. everyone else people in group 1 don't care about the news since they were probably already paying for support anyways. people in group 2 (and this is me), for the most part, simply download the binary distribution from the spring website and throw it onto their classpath. if they find a bug, they might submit a bug report, wait for it to get fixed then go back to the website and download whatever the newest version is then throw it back on their classpath. ive used spring since it was part of the com.interface21 package up through spring 1 and spring 2...and every time i upgraded, nothing broke. so honestly, if you are using a version of spring that you downloaded from their website 5 months ago and u find a bug, u can, most likely, simply download the latest version and replace the old one without worrying about breaking anything. if this isnt enough for you, buy commercial support. i mean come on people, the fact that everything is OSS now is starting to transform people into communists. "omg, i dont get free support? the source code is free...why dont they fix all my problems for free too? spring are assholes..." face it, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
  53. Re: two-face[ Go to top ]

    @Benjamin Possolo, I'm agree with your comments and I really want to pay for the Spring Enterprise subscription I said it in another thread and I suggested to Rod if they could have a price for small business and he answered me kindly but my fear is that as the title of this thread said what will SS will do next?, What is the next step?, little by little increase the price of the subscription?, It is SS turned more to the commercial side than the opensource?, What it is doing an Ex-Jboss guy in SS?. Also I fear that there is not yet an answer about the subscription for small business. So the only choice now for me is to get the source code of Spring and hope everything works or move to another solution. Regards.
  54. Re: two-face[ Go to top ]

    I'm sorry, you can ignore my last post but I didn't read the last post on the other thread what Rod said. Rod said:
    We are very seriously considering options around tagging. We will make a decision on this early next week. In the same timeframe, we will hopefully have a lower cost offering for small business as I've mentioned. Please bear with us while we work through the issues.
    Rod Johnson has been really good sport on this thread and has communicated that SS tries to take these things into consideration. Hopefully we will hear soon how the thinking goes and what will the future be.
    Thanks, I appreciate that.
    If you could go back in time, I wish that I would speak to Rod & co. beforehand and help them see where the message fails. I mean I see that there is possibility that this thing could be the best thing since sliced bread in Spring world - a really good compromise between commercial and opensource needs - but there is no way to tell. And that is the key.
    Please feel free to drop me an email if you'd like to chat (and that goes for other posters, also.) I'm not hard to find--rod at springsource. We are seeking a "really good compromise between commercial and opensource needs" and are open to collaboration from the community. Rgds Rod
    This get's much better, Thank you for your answer Rod. I think it would be hard for Rod but a chat room or something could be best to ask all our questions and be done with this hype. Regards.
  55. Re: two-face[ Go to top ]

    Dear Rod, Actually ignore all my comment's you are right, I was an idiot to post all that, It is just that I'm still little uncertain. I got the source of the Spring Source dmServer and is a great piece of engineering, It is not as I said just Tomcat with "OSGi" ;) It is more complex but the code still very clean and excellent and it seems it is easy to use, I don't run it yet though. Rod, you are the man and maybe with this decisions SS is taking, it will benefit more SS and the Spring open source community. I just hope you consider as you said the tagging options and the small business lower cost subscription to have 2 choices. I would really like if you could blog more about this so we can have a more wide view of what is doing SS and what is the direction It's heading. Regards Carlos.
  56. Do you think with this is the beginning of the end of Spring in the Open Source Java community?.
    Who cares. The main thing is to ponder and take a lesson out of it. How many times we have seen this pattern, a simple and already implemented technology (e.g Jboss, Hiberante, DI) all of them implemented and invented by some one else (SUN/IBM, BEA, Object People Top Link, Martin Fowler) cheated by individuals, popularized by forums like theserverside.com. Wake up, be mature, as I have always been saying since long long time, only choose to be committed to standard Java. Beyond standard Java there is nothing but hype. BTW don't get me wrong, if you need to use Appservers, OR mapping tools or any DI framework feel free to use it, but don't pay more more attention then what it deserve. BTW just one side note, with all due respect, lot of people have criticized EJB long before Mr. Rod Johnson both in JCP as well as the forums like serverside.com. Of course what happened in JCP when EJB was in version 1.0 and 2.0 can't be exposed now, but if you guys want to see the criticism on EJB in it's early days I can even provide links to the threads on this forum. So please don't give all the credit to Mr Rod.
  57. Dear Rod, Actually ignore all my comment's you are right, I was an idiot to post all that, It is just that I'm still little uncertain. I got the source of the Spring Source dmServer and is a great piece of engineering, It is not as I said just Tomcat with "OSGi" ;) It is more complex but the code still very clean and excellent and it seems it is easy to use, I don't run it yet though. Rod, you are the man and maybe with this decisions SS is taking, it will benefit more SS and the Spring open source community. I just hope you consider as you said the tagging options and the small business lower cost subscription to have 2 choices. I would really like if you could blog more about this so we can have a more wide view of what is doing SS and what is the direction It's heading. Regards Carlos.
    Don't be sorry, Your comments are perfectly valid. Let SS explain all this mess. Personally this does not have remedy, I consider SS lost already many community members and value.
    Who cares. The main thing is to ponder and take a lesson out of it. How many times we have seen this pattern, a simple and already implemented technology (e.g Jboss, Hiberante, DI) all of them implemented and invented by some one else (SUN/IBM, BEA, Object People Top Link, Martin Fowler) cheated by individuals, popularized by forums like theserverside.com. Wake up, be mature, as I have always been saying since long long time, only choose to be committed to standard Java. Beyond standard Java there is nothing but hype. BTW don't get me wrong, if you need to use Appservers, OR mapping tools or any DI framework feel free to use it, but don't pay more more attention then what it deserve. BTW just one side note, with all due respect, lot of people have criticized EJB long before Mr. Rod Johnson both in JCP as well as the forums like serverside.com. Of course what happened in JCP when EJB was in version 1.0 and 2.0 can't be exposed now, but if you guys want to see the criticism on EJB in it's early days I can even provide links to the threads on this forum. So please don't give all the credit to Mr Rod.
    Agree, Who cares. I am looking at OpenEJB, It's great to have an alternative.
  58. To be honest, I've gotten the feeling in the last year or so that Spring is increasingly a solution looking for a problem. It was a great framework once upon a time for papering over the cracks in the J2EE spec and in deficient frameworks such as struts, but now that the community and Java as a whole has moved in the direction of simplicity and testability over over-engineering and specs, it seems to leave Spring a little stranded. In a way Spring paved the way for its own obsolescence through very successfully promoting simplicity and testability. As this has become more the case, it seems Spring has been afflicted with a "Not Invented Here" syndrome of the worst case, by duplicating the functionality of other frameworks - for instance, what is the point of Spring MVC, besides trying to flog another framework on the back of the Spring name? Surely the effort put into it could have been better used elsewhere.
  59. Spring MVC[ Go to top ]

    When compared to Struts, Spring MVC is excellent. However, it's an action-based framework which is outdated. 2008 ends in 3 months, we no longer have 2003! Component-based frameworks are the way to go nowadays, such as Seam (in combination with JSF or Wicket), or perhaps even frameworks for RIA-apps. Spring faces may have potential and will perhaps gain a better adoption in the future. But it's poorly documented. Given that Spring is factually a commercial offering now, SpringSource cannot expect the community to write the better documentation. As a commercial vendor, they have to do this themselves.
  60. Re: Spring MVC[ Go to top ]

    +1
  61. Re: Spring MVC[ Go to top ]

    However, it's an action-based framework which is outdated. 2008 ends in 3 months, we no longer have 2003!

    Component-based frameworks are the way to go nowadays, such as Seam (in combination with JSF or Wicket), or perhaps even frameworks for RIA-apps.
    Won't start flamewar here but this bold statement seems little or none backing arguments. If action frameworks are outdated tell me why we have such a hype around RoR or Grails, and compare it to the hype around JSF, or ASP.NET which are 'component frameworks'. Even MS recently added MVC to the .NET. Guess why. The way to go nowadays IMHO is REST, which, by nature is action based (and BTW. rest is one of the main themes of upcoming Spring 3.0) Just my side note. Artur
  62. Re: Spring MVC[ Go to top ]

    Won't start flamewar here but this bold statement seems little or none backing arguments. If action frameworks are outdated tell me why we have such a hype around RoR or Grails, and compare it to the hype around JSF, or ASP.NET which are 'component frameworks'.
    Hi Artur, your comment is absolutely legitimate and doesn't start a flamewar at all. I do not want to dodge your question, so here's a _short_ reponse: Why are action-based frameworks such as Struts, Spring MVC etc. outdated? Short answer: because the abstraction level is very low. In component-based frameworks, components encapsulate both the encoding and decoding process. This allows the developer to abstract from low-level http request parameters and leads to higher productivity. As for RoR hype: One important factor is that it's a complete stack of technology. All components of RoR are well-integrated with one another. This is also why I like Seam: Many useful libraries and frameworks are well integrated. As for Grails: there is no real hype. There is a minority of developers who are probably bored with Java. But with modern web frameworks getting more and more complex a consolidation in the web framework space is inevitable, and I doubt that Grails will be one of the winners. As for JSF: I'm aware that it's not liked much by many developers due to several weaknesses. These issues are well known and will (hopefully) be addressed in future JSF versions. A recommended read is http://seamframework.org/Documentation/JSF2 The underlying concept of JSF is good, much better than its reputation. And no sane developer is using "pure JSF". A smart developer is using it with Seam, or if you like Spring, with Spring Faces (although I don't know how stable Spring Faces is yet). In addition, component libaries such as Richfaces get continously improved. Before I learned JSF and Seam, I first learned Struts and then Spring MVC. What I can tell you, is that I'll never go back to action-based frameworks again (Struts, Spring MVC and the like) , unless I'm forced by project requirements. Disclosure: Before someone accuses me of being a JBoss employee or JBoss fanboy, I want to point out that neither of which is true. Further, while I like Seam as a complete stack of technology, it's also far from perfect and there's much potential to improve it further.
  63. Re: Spring MVC[ Go to top ]

    What do you think about Wicket?, Me I think its a great project and you dont need to worry about context. Me also I dont comeback to action frameworks. Im agree about JSF2, looks very promising. Regards.
  64. Re: Wicket[ Go to top ]

    What do you think about Wicket?, Me I think its a great project and you dont need to worry about context. Me also I dont comeback to action frameworks.

    Im

    Regards.
    difficult question. My technical knowledge about Wicket is limited, so as far as technical aspects are concerned, I actually don't feel to be qualified enough to comment on it. Is is innovative? Yes, without question! Clearly, it's always nice to see if the Java world continues to innovate and there is no standstill compared to competing platforms such as .NET. From a software engineering perspective, my feelings are mixed about the Wicket approach to construct the MVC-View with Java code (in JSF the view can be constructed and manipulated with Java code, too, btw, although I recommend not to do this). Actually, I like the JSF approach to describe the view in an XML document and bind it with the expression language to event handlers (better separation of concerns). Maybe this is possible in Wicket as well, but as mentioned, my technical knowledge of Wicket is limited. One big drawback of Wicket is that it's not standard-based. Its adoption is still low. But the success of a component-based framework depends heavily on the availability of components. In this respect a standard is critical. Given the high investment already made in component libraries such as Richfaces, Icefaces, Oracle ADF/trinidad etc., JSF has a big lead. I have doubts whether Wicket will ever be able to catch on. Nevertheless, we shouldn't write Wicket off too early. It needs to be watched how the situations evolves, ie. whether better component libraries become available. When evaluating frameworks, there are much more criteria than just technical aspects, however. I recommend an excellent blog article by Geertjan Wielenga: http://java.dzone.com/news/how-choose-a-java-desktop-fram His points also hold true with respect to web frameworks. Geertjan's last criterium is what the framework's future is. I do not consider it negative at all if a company (= money) is behind a framework and invested heavily in it. Actually this can be very positive when the company behind the framework has a working business model, is profitable, and thrives.
  65. Re: Wicket[ Go to top ]

    Actually, I like the JSF approach to describe the view in an XML document and bind it with the expression language to event handlers (better separation of concerns).
    In Wicket the view is described in XML (XHTML) and you use tags to link the dynamic parts of the view to your model which is written in plain-old Java. How does JSF have better separation of concerns?
  66. Re: Wicket[ Go to top ]

    In Wicket the view is described in XML (XHTML) and you use tags to link the dynamic parts of the view to your model which is written in plain-old Java. How does JSF have better separation of concerns?
    As I wrote already, I am not really qualified to comment about the technical aspects of Wicket. I just skimmed over the examples to gain a few expressions. And this was already some months ago. My other points remain valid however. If Wicket is so much better and easier than JSF, I'm wondering why no one has developed a component library which is comparable to Richfaces. Again, the attractiveness of a component framework depends on the availability of components. That said, my view is that the component approach is the right way to go and that older action-based frameworks are outdated now because their abstraction level is too low. I do not want to rule out that I'll take a more detailed look at Wicket and learn this framework some day, but this will depend on the availability of components and better adoption of the framework. Until then I believe that Seam (with JSF) is a good choice (much better than Struts or Spring MVC). If the Spring guys document Spring Faces better, I'll perhaps evaluate Spring Faces, just to see what their approach to enhance JSF is. Right now, however, the documentation of Spring Faces is so poor that it doesn't deserve to be called documentation.
  67. Re: Spring MVC[ Go to top ]

    Have you ever checked the annotation support in Spring MVC? The other solutions seem to be obsolete once you have used it... But that only is my opinion. On the other hand, at least for us, so far Spring MVC was the only framework that allowed easy and automatic integration of GWT services in an application, without hardcoding URLs and with refactoring support. Multiple times told: if it solves your problem, use it, if it does not, use something else.
  68. To be honest, I've gotten the feeling in the last year or so that Spring is increasingly a solution looking for a problem. ... In a way Spring paved the way for its own obsolescence through very successfully promoting simplicity and testability. ... Surely the effort put into it could have been better used elsewhere.
    I totally concur. Spring indeed contributed to simplify the over-engineered j2ee landscape; I also believe it is still a good framework, but not the only one and not so "necessary" anymore.
  69. As this has become more the case, it seems Spring has been afflicted with a "Not Invented Here" syndrome of the worst case, by duplicating the functionality of other frameworks - for instance, what is the point of Spring MVC, besides trying to flog another framework on the back of the Spring name? Surely the effort put into it could have been better used elsewhere.
    Take a look at http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks before you claim that no one should be trying to create new web frameworks (and as already mentioned, Spring MVC came out in 2003). I'd like to see you find some other examples of NIH from Spring. Spring-WS, perhaps? I'd argue that there are some significant differences between it and alternatives like Axis and Apache CXF. Perhaps you could point me to Spring's JPA, JMS, or JCR implementation? There are some major questions to be asked of SS these days and the direction it's headed, but I think this NIH charge is ridiculous, and it's diverting attention from the real questions to be asked.
  70. Wille
    As this has become more the case, it seems Spring has been afflicted with a "Not Invented Here" syndrome of the worst case, by duplicating the functionality of other frameworks - for instance, what is the point of Spring MVC, besides trying to flog another framework on the back of the Spring name? Surely the effort put into it could have been better used elsewhere.
    The Spring Framework actually grew out of Spring MVC. My first book explained back in 2002 in considerable detail why I thought another MVC framework was needed. Spring MVC is extremely popular and we've had lots of positive feedback about new features such as the annotation support in 2.5. We have more new features planned for 3.0. If you don't want to use Spring MVC, don't. You're not forced to, even if you use other parts of Spring. But plenty of people do use it, and appreciate having an additional choice in the web tier. Rgds Rod
  71. Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Lately I fully agree with Rod's previous statement: this is a clear overreaction from the community. Let's face it: Before the changes: - We had no guarantee that SS will release any minor or major version on a timely manner. The fix might be in the trunk, but no official version existed. After the changes: - It is the same situation, we have the very same rights. The only difference is that SS will provide release support for paying customers, and now we are complaining that they get something extra for the payed support. I see nothing else that has changed in any way. Previously Spring was great because Rod and his colleagues were kind and shared their best talent with the community, and we have the very same hope that they continue to do so. If someone would like to be sure about it, why not to pay some money to them? So Rod, please go ahead. I've had limited experience about your support and it was more than excellent one year ago, you can surely build upon that. However please give the community a bit help around the estimates of the major release cycles, to calm the nerves...
  72. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Lately I fully agree with Rod's previous statement: this is a clear overreaction from the community. Let's face it: Before the changes: - We had no guarantee that SS will release any minor or major version on a timely manner. The fix might be in the trunk, but no official version existed. After the changes: - It is the same situation, we have the very same rights. The only difference is that SS will provide release support for paying customers, and now we are complaining that they get something extra for the payed support. I see nothing else that has changed in any way. Previously Spring was great because Rod and his colleagues were kind and shared their best talent with the community, and we have the very same hope that they continue to do so. If someone would like to be sure about it, why not to pay some money to them? So Rod, please go ahead. I've had limited experience about your support and it was more than excellent one year ago, you can surely build upon that. However please give the community a bit help around the estimates of the major release cycles, to calm the nerves...
    Nah, No more of spring zealot feed, I will not bet my projects with a VC start up, I prefer to go with the standard even I have to pay for services as JBoss, Oracle or Websphere but I will not be with a vendor lock-in. "Spring fucked up". The spring zealots should admit it and be more honest, SS will change again the rules more often in the middle of the game. Peace Out.
  73. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    I prefer to go with the standard even I have to pay for services as JBoss, Oracle or Websphere but I will not be with a vendor lock-in.
    Your choice, however at least give Glassfish a try, because much more useful than the mentioned ones... People tend to forget that Spring is standard-friendly, so you can still have best of both worlds. If you truly believe that a standard is enough for you, go for it. (Anyway I haven't seen any standard-based product what is truly and fully interchangeable with other implementations - so long standards). If you use the services Spring provides, go for it, nothing changed in the past few weeks. I just don't understand the people who cry out and say that the world collapsed. No it hadn't. Actually we haven't lost any previous right, it is just stated now what you can except if you pay and what if not, as I pointed out you haven't had any guarantee previously too. I'm afraid that the people who complain the most are the people who used Spring only for the branding and not for the functions, so nothing major happens if they go for the next silver bullet... And yes, I'm am a very happy non-paying Spring user, who will consider the small-business support if that will be available, but will cope with the current terms too without payment.
  74. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    I just don't understand the people who cry out and say that the world collapsed. No it hadn't. Actually we haven't lost any previous right, it is just stated now what you can except if you pay and what if not, as I pointed out you haven't had any guarantee previously too.
    Then you did not understand what SpringSource did and what all the rumor is about. SpringSource removed the public availability of baselines created after 3 months from the version release. In other words, there won't be new baselines after three months - if you do not pay, you will have to create your custom version and incorporate the bug fixes (these will be still available) yourself. How can you say they did not remove any right? They changed the rules of the table while the game had started already. Bear in mind I do not particularly care as I was using Spring for IOC and transactions only. I am disappointed and concerned about what many other VC-funded open source initiatives and Spring-dependent frameworks could do in the next months following the trail of SpringSource. I thankfully did not lock in their (useless) extensive API. Bye bye Spring and thanks for what you brought to the Java community - because you indeed gave a lot. But it's time to move on. When Rod wrote Spring, he did it because he did not like J2EE. If people does not like Spring anymore, someone will pop up and write a new alternative. Perhaps he thought his framework became "necessary" - everything is important, nothing is necessary. Ciao.
  75. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Then you did not understand what SpringSource did and what all the rumor is about. SpringSource removed the public availability of baselines created after 3 months from the version release. In other words, there won't be new baselines after three months - if you do not pay, you will have to create your custom version and incorporate the bug fixes (these will be still available) yourself.

    How can you say they did not remove any right? They changed the rules of the table while the game had started already.
    So, please tell me: What forced SpringSource or Interface21 previously to create any custom or new version of Spring framework at any time? I'll tell you: nothing. So what changed? A bit: now the paying customers can at least expect something.
  76. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    So, please tell me: What forced SpringSource or Interface21 previously to create any custom or new version of Spring framework at any time? I'll tell you: nothing.
    They indeed did not change your right to produce a custom version, that is for sure. On the other hand they deliberately introduced chaos by forcing you to build a custom one - what "version" will open source projects based on Spring use? Their custom one. So what changed? A bit: now the paying customers can at least expect something. This is the controversial point, Istvan: does it sound even a bit reasonable to you? To me, no. There are many better ways of making money out of Spring - dm Server and ERS server are a rather valid example. One last word: clear, stable licensing is a key factor when it comes about technology adoption. I cannot suggest my customers technologies that can introduce a financial or support risk on the way. At a broader extent, I will keep far away from any VC-funded open source initiative from now on.
  77. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    One last word: clear, stable licensing is a key factor when it comes about technology adoption.
    Fully agreed. I've switched from project who went from BSD/LGPL to GPL a few times now, and will do so again if that happens. Probably I'll be one of the many who will help to fork Spring if such a license change happens. But as long as there is no such and no major error lies in the framework for more time, I won't bury Spring. Believe me: SpringSource wouldn't want the reputation of buggy software just because they would like to have one more customer. If there were a serious bug in the framework that broke something, I'm sure there would be a release for the community too, and if there weren't such a version, the community would fork/abondon Spring. So I'd be optimistic: let's suppose the best first and don't bury the guys behind Spring prematurely...
  78. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Actually we haven't lost any previous right
    Oh, great! Let's just forget this whole debate and pretend that nothing has changed! I think it's time for you to wake up and "leave the matrix", pal... Cheers.
  79. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Actually we haven't lost any previous right

    Oh, great! Let's just forget this whole debate and pretend that nothing has changed!

    I think it's time for you to wake up and "leave the matrix", pal...

    Cheers.
    Call me ignorant, but I did my cost/risk/benefit analysis for our business. We are using Spring for a couple of tasks (IoC, WebMVC, JdbcTemplate (with manual transaction demarcation), JMX, GWT-bindings), each of these could be substituted with other tools or solutions. However after a lot evaluation I still find Spring the best tool for these tasks and the "big news that ruined Spring" still seems to overreaction for me. So please tell me, if I'm building on these parts, what is the risk of my application? (Background: We are mostly doing test-driven developments.) The application is in early stage, so you can still save our souls, and free from the Matrix ;)
  80. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Call me ignorant
    I'll never do that, Istvan. The folks at SS do a much better job than me in this regard... Cheers.
  81. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Call me ignorant


    I'll never do that, Istvan. The folks at SS do a much better job than me in this regard...

    Cheers.
    Still... I have the open question about the risks...
  82. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Call me ignorant


    I'll never do that, Istvan. The folks at SS do a much better job than me in this regard...

    Cheers.


    Still... I have the open question about the risks...
    If over 240 posts raising issues/points/concerns on TSS (not to mention things like http://labora.harnvi.net/?p=71) still don't ring any bells, I must assume you work for SS... Gee, you can't be serious... Cheers.
  83. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Still... I have the open question about the risks...


    If over 240 posts raising issues/points/concerns on TSS (not to mention things like http://labora.harnvi.net/?p=71) still don't ring any bells, I must assume you work for SS...
    Open up Eclipse, or whatever tool you prefer. Search for org.springframework in your .java-files. I see a few annotations. A bunch of nice *Utils-classes. Some jdbctemplates in my junit tests along with the excellent spring junit extensions. Now, where is the risk? It seems to me that the biggest problem here is people writing crappy code that depends on frameworks that are designed in a way that you should not depend on them, other in runtime, which is more easy to replace when that day comes along... and it will, no matter if you use spring or not. /Magnus
  84. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    Call me ignorant


    I'll never do that, Istvan. The folks at SS do a much better job than me in this regard...

    Cheers.


    Still... I have the open question about the risks...


    If over 240 posts raising issues/points/concerns on TSS (not to mention things like http://labora.harnvi.net/?p=71) still don't ring any bells, I must assume you work for SS...

    Gee, you can't be serious...
    I've read through the first 130 or so comment here previously, and it alarmed a bell like hell. But then we did our analysis about the risks, so now I have a solid basis to say that I'm not exposed to anything I haven't before. Now you are stating we are doomed, and although I have asked several times to identify at least one risk, you are just repeating the mantra. No, I'm not SS employee, although there was a time when I've had direct contact with them, and it was a really good impression. But I've built/modified/reported/contributed a bunch of open-source project now, developing my projects with an utility library that I plan to open source later... My Spring-config is ridiculously small, using a lot autowire and similar magic in most of the place, the source code contains mostly annotations too from Spring. Oh, my DAO layer depends on JdbcTemplate, but actually it is automatically generated (for this very good reason). You can whine about your lost innocence of friendship, about forking the code, whatever, but business had never friends, only interests that aligned allies. Spring is still that for us. And as long as they keep the backward-compatibility status, I see no risk even with the trunk build in our production systems (supposed it passed its tests and our code ours). If they would change the licence, we would be one of the first who would contribute to a fork, but as long as they keep playing good, we are fine with them.
  85. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    I've read through the first 130 or so comment here previously, and it alarmed a bell like hell. But then we did our analysis about the risks, so now I have a solid basis to say that I'm not exposed to anything I haven't before. Now you are stating we are doomed, and although I have asked several times to identify at least one risk, you are just repeating the mantra.
    Some people are stating we are doomed, some other like me are stating the moral aspects of this move. If they have acted like this now, what happens if they make another similar move with bigger business consequences?
  86. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    I've read through the first 130 or so comment here previously, and it alarmed a bell like hell. But then we did our analysis about the risks, so now I have a solid basis to say that I'm not exposed to anything I haven't before. Now you are stating we are doomed, and although I have asked several times to identify at least one risk, you are just repeating the mantra.


    Some people are stating we are doomed, some other like me are stating the moral aspects of this move. If they have acted like this now, what happens if they make another similar move with bigger business consequences?
    What is the worst business consequence? Changed license? Someone will take over the existing sources and do a fork... No upcoming builds and a bug is there? You will trust a 3rd party that provides Spring builds... No way for going forward with Spring? You just re-examine your code and remove the dependencies ongoing (as you can use the already existing features as you wish)... We have chosen open source not because it is free (as in beer), although it is a big factor in that, but because the source is there and we can take it even after the company wouldn't like to provide it anymore. So act like that. And even if the pricing is reasonable, I'm willing to pay the subscription... Everyone has the right to play doomed, upset or worried as you wish, it is just the fact that needs to be stated: not everyone feels the same as you.
  87. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    I've read through the first 130 or so comment here previously, and it alarmed a bell like hell. But then we did our analysis about the risks, so now I have a solid basis to say that I'm not exposed to anything I haven't before. Now you are stating we are doomed, and although I have asked several times to identify at least one risk, you are just repeating the mantra.


    Some people are stating we are doomed, some other like me are stating the moral aspects of this move. If they have acted like this now, what happens if they make another similar move with bigger business consequences?


    What is the worst business consequence? Changed license? Someone will take over the existing sources and do a fork... No upcoming builds and a bug is there? You will trust a 3rd party that provides Spring builds... No way for going forward with Spring? You just re-examine your code and remove the dependencies ongoing (as you can use the already existing features as you wish)...

    We have chosen open source not because it is free (as in beer), although it is a big factor in that, but because the source is there and we can take it even after the company wouldn't like to provide it anymore. So act like that. And even if the pricing is reasonable, I'm willing to pay the subscription...

    Everyone has the right to play doomed, upset or worried as you wish, it is just the fact that needs to be stated: not everyone feels the same as you.
    "One vendor lock-in that is the consequence", It is very simple to understand, You will trust your project/business to one vendor and no have a second opinion, chance, option. I will give you my advice, the people that think there is no consequence and nothing happen in this life are done, The Strong always will win to the weak, The nature law. Be ready always in this life for anything that can come, Maybe earth will be done tomorrow and you are thinking everything is great. Don't trust, they just want something from you and they will take it from you anytime. As this case they want your confidence and then they take it away and give you the finger.
  88. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    "One vendor lock-in that is the consequence", It is very simple to understand, You will trust your project/business to one vendor and no have a second opinion, chance, option.
    I do remember the no vendor lock-in mantra back a few years, I was one of the propagators too. But then the application servers were the best vendor lock-ins in the market, vendors made billions from them. Fortunately today vendor lock-in is not based on the product, it is how you are using the product. Everything can be used as a vendor-lock-in. Btw. how many of us are using log4j, commons-logging or something similar non-standard? These are all vendor lock-ins. Good luck! :)
  89. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    "One vendor lock-in that is the consequence", It is very simple to understand, You will trust your project/business to one vendor and no have a second opinion, chance, option.


    I do remember the no vendor lock-in mantra back a few years, I was one of the propagators too. But then the application servers were the best vendor lock-ins in the market, vendors made billions from them.
    Fortunately today vendor lock-in is not based on the product, it is how you are using the product. Everything can be used as a vendor-lock-in. Btw. how many of us are using log4j, commons-logging or something similar non-standard? These are all vendor lock-ins. Good luck! :)
    Standard Stack solutions as JEE we are talking about, Not about single projects, if for example something happen to log4j, the community will fork it and be done with it but what about a complete solution or Stack as JEE or Spring Portfolio?. Anyway Spring Source is selling Spring Portfolio as a product or stack or solution or what is the difference of it?. It's one vendor lock-in, Better I wish you good luck to you my friend.
  90. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    log4j, the community will fork it and be done with it but what about a complete solution or Stack as JEE or Spring Portfolio?
    There is a big difference between patching by yourself some logging library (easy), some AOP based declarative transaction library (harder), or even worse patching by yourself transaction journal (expert).
  91. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    What is the worst business consequence? Changed license? Someone will take over the existing sources and do a fork... No upcoming builds and a bug is there? You will trust a 3rd party that provides Spring builds... No way for going forward with Spring? You just re-examine your code and remove the dependencies ongoing (as you can use the already existing features as you wish)..
    They make commercial only fork of Spring. You must now either pay for subscription (money), develop/maintain/fix yourself (time=money again), rely on unknown third parties for bug fixes/features (money again, risk=money). Regarding the trust to 3rd party, one cant rely on unknown or with no known credibility third party to provide fixes for mission critical system. It aint gonna happen. By now SS had that credibility/trust of community, thats why all those open source users advocated Spring and SS. We knew Spring is quality project with credible company behind it.
    You just re-examine your code and remove the dependencies
    Ahh, if things were simple as you make them sound... Managers and executives will start asking following now in any serious project development: We are paying BEA/Oracle for runtime, why do we have to pay to SS for? Doesn't BEA/Oracle sell(we licensed) competitive STANDARD based solution? And I hate to admit it, by asking this question they are damn right.
  92. Re: Overreaction[ Go to top ]

    I've read through the first 130 or so comment here previously, and it alarmed a bell like hell. But then we did our analysis about the risks, so now I have a solid basis to say that I'm not exposed to anything I haven't before. Now you are stating we are doomed, and although I have asked several times to identify at least one risk, you are just repeating the mantra.


    Some people are stating we are doomed, some other like me are stating the moral aspects of this move. If they have acted like this now, what happens if they make another similar move with bigger business consequences?


    What is the worst business consequence? Changed license? Someone will take over the existing sources and do a fork... No upcoming builds and a bug is there? You will trust a 3rd party that provides Spring builds... No way for going forward with Spring? You just re-examine your code and remove the dependencies ongoing (as you can use the already existing features as you wish)...

    We have chosen open source not because it is free (as in beer), although it is a big factor in that, but because the source is there and we can take it even after the company wouldn't like to provide it anymore. So act like that. And even if the pricing is reasonable, I'm willing to pay the subscription...

    Everyone has the right to play doomed, upset or worried as you wish, it is just the fact that needs to be stated: not everyone feels the same as you.
    Istvan, Firstly, I never stated that we are doomed, as I believe there are ways to overcome this infamous changes. I just invited you to "wake up", even though you don't seem interested in doing so. So, besides the points already raised by other posters (and at the risk of being here just wasting my time), here we go: - We won't have the tags after 3 months, remember? So, it's gonna be interesting to read your answer in public foruns when a problem arises and people ask "What version are you using?". At that very moment you can come up with something like "Version? I'm using something I got from the source repository nine weeks ago. It was about 10:15am when I did so, by the way. Can you help me?" - What's gonna be the roadmap for "grand versions" from now on? Chances are that they will be holding them, for obvious reasons. So, how long will it take to get a new "grand version" out the door? Weeks, months, years, lightyears?... Are you worried? Well, don't be. After all, you can always call their sales team... - Will you be able to build from the source repository? Will you *really* be able? (remember that you'll be "tagless"). What about the integration tests? Will you be confident to deploy it in a production environment? If a problem arises, what you gonna tell your customers? "Well, I got something for the source repository that seemed to work, but hey, Rod don't give me the tags anymore, so this is the best I could do!". Who gets the money and who gets the risks? Well, don't know about you, but I have never been a big fan of "Alone in the Dark"... - The vendor lock-in bothers me *a lot*. This is a personal point of view, so, your results may vary... - As pointed out by Ryan de Laplante in his (very nice) blog, "the level of support they will offer in the forums will deminish because of the new commercial support offering." http://www.ryandelaplante.com/rdelaplante/entry/the_cost_of_springsource_enterprise Forget about a free support (as in "free beer"). - Where I work, our solutions eventually get fully transfered to the customer's development team, so that they are able to maintain/evolve them as they see fit. Their first reactions to these new policies were everything but nice. Since some portions of our product rely on Spring, they want us to assure that they'll get appropriate conditions to do their job. And no tags in the repository is hardly being seen as "apropriate conditions". By the way, this is the least one would expect from an "open source" project. - The line between open and closed source has been blurred. I don't see this as an open source project anymore. - The code swap is not as simple as you made it sound. Firstly, it implies rework which, in turn, implies time and money to accomplish. We are doing that, and we'll stick to the standards this time. - The VCs are at the head of the table now, so, new surprises might come sooner or later. We are simply not willing to take our chances. - Why insist with the risky option, when there are less risky alternatives? Is just that simple. - As pointed out in the (very useful and enlightening) timeline simuation at http://labora.harnvi.net/?p=71, "it will take ages to get to the fixes you need. And there will be no QA, other than the one you do for yourself.". Are you comfortable with that? I'm not. - The "B" plan ("if everything collapses, just go and buy their support plan") simply doesn't work for us. The price is outrageous. If after these and all the other posts the web around, you still think you are in a safe position, then good for you. By the way, there's nobody in a better position than yourself to assess (and take) the risks. If they look reasonable from your perspective, then "keep walking". I wish you the best (no irony here, I really mean it). Cheers.
  93. Hi Rod, Can you tell us all when exactly did Bay Partners become an shareholder in Interface21/SpringSource? Was it before this article was posted on TSS declaring Spring to be the next Java EE whilst not mentioning the authors own commercial/vested interest? http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=45268 By the way they are not listed here which indicates they are more than just investors but core shareholders. http://www.springsource.com/investors William
  94. William
    Can you tell us all when exactly did Bay Partners become an shareholder in Interface21/SpringSource? Was it before this article was posted on TSS declaring Spring to be the next Java EE whilst not mentioning the authors own commercial/vested interest?
    Bay invested in SpringSource many months after Salil Deshpande wrote that article. 1. investor goes to conference, hears a lot of good stuff about Spring 2. investor seeks opportunity to invest in SpringSource Makes sense, doesn't it? Sorry to debunk your conspiracy theory though, it was fun... Rgds Rod
  95. Since you answering questions....[ Go to top ]

    Thanks Rod but I never mentioned a conspiracy theory. I was curious of the timing that is why I added a '?' at the end. Are you saying that Bay Partners invested after Benchmark Capital had handed over 10 million (in the same month of the article)? Why not listed? While you answering my questions would you mind answering this post here. http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=50727#269550 William
  96. Please answer....[ Go to top ]

    Since you answering questions....
    Posted by: William Louth on September 29, 2008 @ 03:47 PM
    ... ... ...
    While you answering my questions would you mind answering this post here.
    http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=50727#269550

    William
  97. Re: Please answer....[ Go to top ]

    I am glad someone else would like to see this question answered because it has serious consequences for customers that integrate/extend at runtime other commercial (or open source) products via Spring extension points. These vendors (i.e. Alfresco) could potentially ship with a licensed commercial maintenance release. Is the license of the maintenance release transfered to the customer if there is indeed a different license in place? If not then are we going to see various products including open products ship with buggy versions of Spring just to avoid the spread of a commercial licensing requirement. I cannot imagine how someone on this thread could see this as off topic. Looking forward to clarification on this matter. William
  98. Re: Please answer....[ Go to top ]

    +1
  99. Re: Please answer....[ Go to top ]

    Only a question. These are the springframework.org actual news: - SpringSource dm Server 1.0.0 reaches GA - Spring in Finance - London - SpringSource publishes Enterprise Maintenance Policy FAQ .... Finance, springsource... ----------------------------------- September 2004 news: - Spring Framework 1.1.1 Released - Spring Framework 1.1 Final Released - Spring Framework 1.1 Release Candidate 2 Released Where are the open source projects?
  100. Re: Please answer....[ Go to top ]

    Dear aa, It's interesting that you have never before posted to TSS. However, I'm glad you raised a question around our contribution to open source, because it gives me an opportunity to present the facts. SpringSource has made more open source releases in 2008 than ever before--around 100 across Spring projects thus far this year. We've also played an active or leading role in numerous other projects including Apache Tomcat and AspectJ. Rgds Rod
  101. Re: Please answer....[ Go to top ]

    Dear aa,

    It's interesting that you have never before posted to TSS.

    However, I'm glad you raised a question around our contribution to open source, because it gives me an opportunity to present the facts.

    SpringSource has made more open source releases in 2008 than ever before--around 100 across Spring projects thus far this year. We've also played an active or leading role in numerous other projects including Apache Tomcat and AspectJ.

    Rgds
    Rod
    Rod, That's all good, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, are we getting a tagged repository for the latest maintenance release of Spring under the new SS policy? While great work has been done by the Spring team, it may all come down to nothing if the community is trashed by withholding tags/stable releases. You really need to clarify this. Regards, Greg
  102. William, The answer to your cross posted question was already provided in the other thread. Read the FAQ for the SpringSource Maintenance Policy.
  103. Adam can you point me to the actual message that has responded to my message #269550. I cannot seem to find it on the thread using "find". I have also checked the FAQ and no one does is state what the implications are with the distribution of a non-community maintenance release with an open source or commercial open source or commercial product. I do see the following so am I to assume that customers who receive a *** NON-COMMUNITY ** maintenance release via another third party product (alfresco, gridgain,....) must also purchase a commercial license from yourselves (SpringSource). "Under what license are the SpringSource Enterprise maintenance releases distributed? The SpringSource Enterprise maintenance releases are distributed under our commercial license along with the development and management tools in the SpringSource Performance Suite. Additionally these releases come with other benefits like 24x7 global support." William
  104. If I can get the discussion back on track, we (the community) only care at this stage about 1 thing. Rod, is the community getting a tagged repository for the current major version or not?
  105. If I can get the discussion back on track, we (the community) only care at this stage about 1 thing.

    Rod, is the community getting a tagged repository for the current major version or not?
    Straight to the point I like that!. Spring MVC is not very popular as they said, if you see the job trends or on Dice it is pretty low, It is higher Rails or JSF or Flex3. Also why still need Spring?, What offers to the table? JEE5 it is giving what the community need and there are complete free implementations, The JEE 6 even come with more features and I think it will match or more of what Spring offers. Why SS can't get a similar business model as JBoss and be done with this trouble to the community?. Spring maybe is becoming good for Commercial Enterprise specialized niche needs.
  106. Talking about SpringMVC, take a look at this presentation slides: http://ptrthomas.wordpress.com/2008/05/26/migrating-to-apache-wicket-presentation-slides/ They are comparing Wicket with SpringMVC, and you can see how SpringMVC over-engineering crap is it.You can see on the diagram and the author said "using an action-oriented MVC framework with JSP can end up with a ‘Franken-stack’ over time". Anyway about Spring, for the 90% of the Spring community we just need the Spring core, We don't need the Portfolio that is for Big Enterprises. Just give the Tags Rod and you will see that the trouble will be over and SS can live happy and give their services to the well established and big corporations and for the community also everything will go back to normal.