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News: Review of RIA Frameworks

  1. Review of RIA Frameworks (27 messages)

    Glen Lipka, Director, UX and Product Management at Marketo, as a web designer, wrote a review of RIA frameworks to find out if there is any RIA framework that suits web designers' requirements, and simplifies their job of CSS customization at the same time. Among these 14 frameworks, he is in favor of JQuery. "Only jQuery UI allows me to get started and use the framework without having a Computer Science degree." As for other frameworks, EXT-JS is good at CSS customization, ZK and Openlazlo are impressed by their support of markup language. Moreover, Glen also gives some suggestions to these RIA frameworks about how to make themselves from others.

    Threaded Messages (27)

  2. Some other ideas[ Go to top ]

    The last time I saw a list like this was at the TSS Symposium. :-) Glen's list looks up-to-date. I would add a couple more: Flash/Flex - I don't think users care if their rich Internet experience comes from a bunch of Javascript-hyped-up components or an embedded Flash component. And I'm still urged from both camps that theirs is the better way. Appcelerator - tag-based framework delivers both the client and the server components, and takes care of all the messaging for you. http://www.appcelerator.com I wish I could find a list of RIA test frameworks. Once you deliver this stuff, how do you test it? Without a test platform these RIA frameworks are just really good viruses. I blogged about this at http://tinyurl.com/6r34jf -Frank Cohen http://www.pushtotest.com
  3. It is hard to say which one is better[ Go to top ]

    I like Flex because I don't need designer to create better looking UI (not sexy though). Again designer from web1.0 can create CSS and developer use them with Flex to create good UI. Appecelerator is great for RIA where you can use designer who knows web1.0. It is kind of page driven but embedded widget gives you better control to mix and match web 1.0 & 2.0 GWT is not bad but bad for designer because he need more knowledge(little) about Java jQuery & other JS framework are good for designer
  4. Re: Some other ideas[ Go to top ]

    I find it interesting that so far no one else has mentioned what Apple has been doing with open source tools, e.g. Sproutcore and HTML5. They are not dependent on Adobe or Microsoft supporting this browser or that. The browser manufacturers are in control of their own destiny, not some monopoly. Notice that Google is following Apple's lead in this arena. Apple's better at software applications than Google is, but Google is smart enough and rich enough to recognize and use a good idea when they see one. My comments are not about Apple. My point is that on the browser, you generally don't need to hitch your wagon to some corporation. You can get a surprising amount of richness and portability with open source tools. Today you see it on the iPhone. Tomorrow it will be Mac's, anything running Safari or Chrome and devices running Android. I don't expect Mozilla to stay asleep at the wheel on this either. Sproutcore/HTML5 supports Firefox, IE and Safari/Webkit. Yes, it runs on Linux.
  5. Re: Some other ideas[ Go to top ]

    I find it interesting that so far no one else has mentioned what Apple has been doing with open source tools, e.g. Sproutcore and HTML5. They are not dependent on Adobe or Microsoft supporting this browser or that. The browser manufacturers are in control of their own destiny, not some monopoly.

    Notice that Google is following Apple's lead in this arena. Apple's better at software applications than Google is, but Google is smart enough and rich enough to recognize and use a good idea when they see one.

    My comments are not about Apple. My point is that on the browser, you generally don't need to hitch your wagon to some corporation. You can get a surprising amount of richness and portability with open source tools. Today you see it on the iPhone. Tomorrow it will be Mac's, anything running Safari or Chrome and devices running Android. I don't expect Mozilla to stay asleep at the wheel on this either. Sproutcore/HTML5 supports Firefox, IE and Safari/Webkit.

    Yes, it runs on Linux.
    Regarding opensource, you should know that Adobe Flex is open source. So is BlazeDS the java server-side part to easily do polling and messaging (among other things). They also recently put Cairngorm, their MVC framework also on open source. And they use the Webkit made by Apple inside Adobe AIR. So, yeah, open source is good, open API is too. And companies like Google, Apple, and Adobe that build with what the others do instead of against them probably have a bright future.
  6. Re: Some other ideas[ Go to top ]

    Well Flex and some other products from corporations may always provide some advanced features that the free open source community cannot because it moves at a slower pace. I do have some questions for you about Adobe's "open source" terms for Flex in particular. The term "open source" can be interpreted in multiple ways so I need to ask you .. When you say Adobe Flex is "open source" do you mean that 1) you can see the code (or markup spec) but you still have to buy a product from us for creating Flex content or 2) you can see the code and others can develop tools to create products that support Flex development without paying us or 3) you can see the code, you can contribute to the code and everyone can use it without paying us - just share any changes you make to the code or 4) you can see the code but only we can supply the plug-in's to make Flex run or 5) something else or some combination of above or 6) we published the markup language spec and you're all on your own. How does Flex being "open source" help insure that it can run in multiple browsers including those specific to this or that device? What is the program for that? For example, what does somebody like Opera do to insure they can support Flex other than paying Adobe or hoping Adobe will do it on their own?
  7. Re: Some other ideas[ Go to top ]

    Well, I'm no Adobe employee, and no legal specialist either, so I probably won't be able to answer all your questions. What I understood is that the Adobe 3 SDK compiler and debugger is available under MPL 1.1 The source is available and you can use it in tools with licenses compatible with that. You can buy Flex Builder, but you don't have to, you can do software in Flex for free with just the SDK. That include compiler and debugger. So a text editor and you're good to go. What is not open source is the Flash player, and the AIR framework, the one that contain SQLite and Webkit, to do stand alone applications. The Flash player is what make the thing run on every browser. And no, as far as I know this is not open source. So it definitively doesn't insure that it can run in multiple browsers by that. You'll have to rely on Adobe for that. But the 97% coverage on computers and the fact that it does work the same way on major browser is pretty much one of their biggest marketing argument. So depending of what you do, it can be a good or a bad idea to use Flex. But, for crossbrowser compatiblity, with javascript/dhtml/css, you have to relly on several browser manufacturers, and for the past 10 years that haven't gave great results so far. The advantage of the Flash player, is that there is only one responsible. Well, it's a strength and a weakness at the same time I guess. For me, to develop a rich web application supposed to run on a regular browser, Flex is a good tool. Not perfect, not horrible, but that can do the job with a small development cost, for small and medium applications (not that big applications aren't possible, simply I haven't seen one so far). Regarding open source at adobe, you'll find more info there http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/site/Home Hope that helps. PS : for Opera, as far as I can tell Flash player works fine, but TSS on the other hand, I still need to move to firefox to be able to click on the reply link.
  8. Re: Some other ideas[ Go to top ]

    My point is that on the browser, you generally don't need to hitch your wagon to some corporation.
    Isn't the "browser manufactures" themselves a monopoly? Gee, I wonder why IE is packaged with the operating system?
    You can get a surprising amount of richness and portability with open source tools.
    Yap you sure can, but at what cost? What happens when one of the "browser manufactures" comes out with a new version, say like Chrome and your web page doesn't exactly work as if it was on IE. So, now I have to wait until Sproutcore and HTML5 comes out with some patches to make my code compatible. Mean while my competition is kicking my butt because they used Flex and don't care who the "browser manufactures" are. Sure, the Flash plugin in of itself is proprietary, however so is the browser that I'm typing this this response from (IE), and how about all those pdf documents that we read in our browser, isn't that proprietary? The question is not about browsers, its about content. Flex and Flash by far do a better job of presenting and manipulating content. Apple has chosen to rid itself of Flash, it will be interesting to see how long they can hold that position when Flash 10 is released. If your not sure what the next "Flashy" features are, see: http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/
  9. Re: Some other ideas[ Go to top ]

    My point is that on the browser, you generally don't need to hitch your wagon to some corporation.
    Isn't the "browser manufactures" themselves a monopoly? Gee, I wonder why IE is packaged with the operating system?

    IE was packaged with the operating system in order to leverage an existing monopoly MS had in the O/S space. Have you been asleep the last 10 years? Surely you remember Netscape don’t you? The first browsers and most browsers are not bound to the O/S. Have you ever heard of Firefox? Opera?
    You can get a surprising amount of richness and portability with open source tools.
    Yap you sure can, but at what cost?
    Free as in beer is the price the last I looked.
    What happens when one of the "browser manufactures" comes out with a new version, say like Chrome and your web page doesn't exactly work as if it was on IE.
    You’re not making any sense here. Chrome is not a new version of IE. Chrome is a new browser based on an existing base – Webkit. It’s Safari compatible. What has that to do with IE?
    So, now I have to wait until Sproutcore and HTML5 comes out with some patches to make my code compatible.
    Mean while my competition is kicking my butt because they used Flex and don't care who the "browser manufactures" are.
    Since Chrome (a new browser with almost 0% market share) is based on Webkit and is Safari compatible, you don’t have to wait at all. Are you claiming that Flex runs on any browser and any version of any browser? I just have to ask though, how can you get your butt kicked by competitors supporting a brand new browser that almost no one is using yet? That’s some business model you have there.
    Sure, the Flash plugin in of itself is proprietary
    - And it does not run on all browsers and all versions of the same. You are at Adobe’s mercy. The plug-in is not open source so you can’t fix it when it doesn’t work.
    and how about all those pdf documents that we read in our browser, isn't that proprietary?
    It would be proprietary if it weren’t for the fact that you no longer have to use Adobe’s software to view or edit PDFs. That’s not true for Flex or Flash.
    Apple has chosen to rid itself of Flash, it will be interesting to see how long they can hold that position when Flash 10 is released.
    Your supposition about Apple’s choice or intentions is unsupportable speculation. It is more reasonable to suppose that Apple does not want to be dependent on Adobe. Adobe has burned them a number of times since the 1990’s by withdrawing support, failing to keep their products current on Mac or not introducing new products on Mac. Adobe did these things because they thought they wouldn't make enough money in the Mac market to justify the expense.
    it will be interesting to see how long they can hold that position when Flash 10 is released.
    “When X is released” is always an interesting argument. When Windows 7 is released all Vista’s and Microsoft’s bad architecture and code problems will be fixed. When is “Cairo” shipping by the way? Adobe like every other commercial developer of software will strive to support platforms based on its perception of potential profitability for them. Apple isn’t doing anything to stop Adobe from supporting their systems; they just don’t want to have to depend on it. However, you’ve managed to miss the point. It’s not about Apple or Adobe. It’s about platform independence, open standards and portability. If you code to proprietary extensions and plug-ins then you are more dependent on the decisions and fortunes of a small group of vendors and that defeats one of the major value propositions of the web revolution. You might as well continue using VB.
  10. OpenLaszlo DHTML runtime[ Go to top ]

    As a point of correctness, as of OpenLaszlo 4.1, both Flash and DHTML runtimes are available. I'm in the midst of cleaning up my app a bit to run in DHTML since the browser's Javascript is a bit more finicky than is the Flash script engine. It's not perfect yet, but the fidelity of the look from the Flash runtime to DHTML is impressive. Cary
  11. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    Sorry, but the "review" is pretty weak and inaccurate. RIA frameworks really don't target web designers as they are used for "applications". In addition to Cary's point, he doesn't seem to know that the server-side of Flex is opensource too. And he thinks it is not for "casual use". Flex seems pretty simple to me. And having visited the flex google group ... it would have to be. He groups [low level] javascript and ajax libraries in with full-fledge RIA frameworks. The libraries can be used in a RIA framework or a RIW[ebsite]. If you want total control you can use the libraries and not the frameworks built on them to make an RIA. Me, I have better things to do.
  12. Microsoft, Nokia Adopt JQuery[ Go to top ]

    From eWeek on Sept. 28, 2008: Microsoft and Nokia announce support for the open-source jQuery JavaScript library. In addition, Microsoft says it will ship jQuery as part of its Visual Studio tool set. That offering will include jQuery intellisense, snippets, examples, and documentation. Microsoft and Nokia join a long list of jQuery users, including Google, Intel, IBM, Intuit, Reuters, and many others. The article is at: http://tinyurl.com/4er92h -Frank Cohen http://www.pushtotest.com
  13. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    from the review
    I am not an engineer. I am very good with HTML/CSS ... I have a friend who uses Flex ... Silverlight. I have no idea how this works... ...
    and this is stuff for TSS ???? why don't we write about cookie recipes too ?
  14. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    Well, it is interesting for once to have the point of view of non-developpers. Beside it is related to developper work. Well, more than cookie recipes. Maybe beer recipes would make it to tss front page (well it should anyway). Regarding Flex, I think Adobe plan to release a new tool aimed at designer to work with that. Thermo is the name I have in mind but not sure.
  15. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    Well, it is interesting for once to have the point of view of non-developpers.
    Oh, we have enough of that here. :)
  16. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    from the review

    I am not an engineer. I am very good with HTML/CSS ...
    I have a friend who uses Flex ...
    Silverlight. I have no idea how this works...
    ...


    and this is stuff for TSS ???? why don't we write about cookie recipes too ?
    Maybe it should be "TheClientSide"? :)
  17. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]


    "Only jQuery UI allows me to get started and use the framework without having a Computer Science degree."
    It depends if your looking for building an 'internet site' or an 'web application' For a web application, I feel that a Computer Science degree is a big plus ! I found qooXdoo very good for building entreprise web application.
  18. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]


    "Only jQuery UI allows me to get started and use the framework without having a Computer Science degree."

    It depends if your looking for building an 'internet site' or an 'web application'
    For a web application, I feel that a Computer Science degree is a big plus
    +1 While easy things should not be hard, the fact of the matter is that writing software is *hard*. That's why we have a degree program in Computer Science and McDonald's does not.(At least last I checked...)
  19. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    ZK and Openlazlo are impressed by their support of markup language.
    It is great that ZK and Openlazlo are so proud of themselves, but I value human opinion higher. And by the way, is Openlazlo a one-letter-shorter fork off OpenLaszlo or a totally different framework?
  20. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    ZK and Openlazlo are impressed by their support of markup language.

    ZK is the best tool for Java developers and web-designers at the same time because of its Direct RIA architecture. Moreover, ZK is the leading open source Ajax + Mobile framework with 700,000+ downloads. See the Versatile widgets here!
  21. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    ZK Direct RIA. I just saw this today. The samples page was nice. Shows real examples with the source. It says that it is open source, but its unclear if there is any pricing. The source looked like XML, so it wasn’t that hard, but I couldn’t see easy ways to customize.
    One day evaluation and you rate it at six (6). Try second day, you will evaluate it to be the first (1). ZK is standard technology at our company (Second Largest Bank in Mozambique). We no more use STRUT, JSF, ICEFACES, WICKET. We only use ZK, all our developer/designer quickly are introduced to ZK with MVC. It is strange that someone
    I am very good with HTML/CSS and I love jQuery.
    couldn't see easy ways to customize! You may lost one week trying to create new component with STRUT, JSF, ICEFACES without success, but with ZK it will be in 4 hours maximum to create or extends components.
  22. Re: Review of RIA Frameworks[ Go to top ]

    Me I use for traditional development component based with some Ajax Wicket, GWT for Ajax development in Java, JAX-WS 2 with Jersey and frontends Swing or Flex/Air, And DWR with Dojo or JQuery. And I will start a project with a contract and it will be using JSF/Facelets with Seam. I try ZK is very nice framework but It is scary their image seems very commercial, yes they have the framework GPL but if I want to use it for commercial I have to pay an expensive license.
  23. Zk License[ Go to top ]

    How you could get that you should pay an expensive price for ZK. I read It's licensencing and its completely free. And only it's support is commercial
  24. Re: Zk License[ Go to top ]

    GPLed a successful framework is a mistake because can't use it for business so the only way is I pay a license and that one it is expensive for small business. I just switched to GWT, IMHO is better framework, liberal and more clean than ZK and is free (as in beer) baked by Google. what else we can ask for?.
  25. Re: Zk License[ Go to top ]

    +1 ZK sucks big time and is very proprietary, GWT is the way to go!.
  26. Re: Zk License[ Go to top ]

    +1

    ZK sucks big time and is very proprietary, GWT is the way to go!.
    ZK +1 Personally, I prefer ZK than GWT because of its programming model. ZK really simplifies developer's job by keeping them away form JavaScript spaghetti, and client-server communication. Though GWT enables developers to use Java instead of JavaScript, but developers have to take care of client/server communication, and maintaining client , and server codes!
  27. I work for a global financial firm that has been using ZK since Q3 2006. We choose to pay for commercial licenses to get developer support. We could choose not to buy support and use and deploy for free and just use the forums like any other opensource. We are busy guys though so we like to ask Potix their opinions and assistance. We end up having to buy support for all the commercial software that we use that is not opensource and we never get good support. We get great support out of Potix, yet they commercial licenses are only a fraction of what we pay for websphere licences, and we could use it for free if we wished. ZK licenses are optional and are not expensive. When I say that they are not expensive they a fraction of the price of something such as BackBase which is the nearest thing to it from a quality perspective. Potix are so competitive *because* they opensourced their software. Lots of volunteers constantly test it and improve it and write sample applications and documentation for it. That frees up Potix to get on with their core job. Saying that the ZK website and image looks scary commercial makes me smile. That is because in the early days their old websites looked "scary opensource" to my big company. That made it hard for me to convince my company to take ZK seriously as they worried that was good technology that might disappear like Betamax. A lot of opensource websites these days such as Mule and Spring websites look very slick. That is because they have companies behind them that are making opensource work for everyone, both large and small.
  28. ECHO 3[ Go to top ]

    What about ECHO 3? Can anyone post comments about it? In my company with have successfully standardized on Echo 2. By leveraging Maven 2 and archetypes, we have reached an extremely efficient environment for web apps development.