Websphere: Officially Better Than Anything, Ever

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News: Websphere: Officially Better Than Anything, Ever

  1. The Websphere Marketing team must be overjoyed to read the recent EDC report - "Application Servers 2008 Rankings" by Janel Garvin (it's free but you need to register). The report is almost too good to be true for Big Blue - Not only does IBM win outright but it also kicks BEA / Oracle's butt all the way back to 7th place (out of eight) - something they've been wanting to since the dawn of time - and of all the years; it happens this year - Websphere's 10th anniversary. Incredible timing. Even more incredible - Geronimo comes in at #2 - another big win for IBM (who sponsor Geronimo). Rich Sharples dissects the report and gives his opinion on testing methodology and rankings.

    Threaded Messages (49)

  2. Hehe .. nice flame bait ;-) Peace, Cameron Purdy Oracle Coherence: Data Grid for Java, .NET and C++
  3. Hehe .. nice flame bait ;-)
    I tell you, some of those TSS editors must be bored on a Friday... Cheers! Eugene You can't connect to a web site, and you aren't sure if the problem is your connection or the server... http://www.istheserverup.com ?
  4. Hehe .. nice flame bait ;-)
    I tell you, some of those TSS editors must be bored on a Friday...

    Cheers!

    Eugene
    Give TSS a break. It's a slow news week here in North America. Pretty much nothing going on :) - Rich
  5. Hehe .. nice flame bait ;-)
    I tell you, some of those TSS editors must be bored on a Friday...

    Cheers!

    Eugene


    Give TSS a break. It's a slow news week here in North America.

    Pretty much nothing going on :)

    - Rich
    Rich, Well, I was bored... Cheers, E You can't connect to a web site, and you aren't sure if the problem is your connection or the server... http://www.istheserverup.com ?
  6. Now *that* was funny. John Clingan GlassFish Group Product Manager
  7. Flame on[ Go to top ]

    Bottom line, if websphere was the answer, you definitely asked the wrong question. Both Websphere and RAD (wSAD), have always been difficult to use, bloated, unreliable pieces of crap. Believe me when I say I'm actually trying to be civil and reasonable. That about as good as gets. Yes I support clients that use these tools, but it's painful, always. I've seen redeploys get messed up where the home URL points to the wrong web app. Just installing and starting it is non-trivial compared to JBoss, Tomcat, or Glassfish. I'm sure someone will counter my points, but the bottom line is: if IBM wants people to like their tools, then fix them. What's strange about this report though... "Windows Server" is in this mix. There's no delineation of platform or category it seems. Enjoy... back to Blizzcon.
  8. Have you been trained on WebSphere[ Go to top ]

    WSAD is a wonderful product. I think it is the best INTEGRATED J2EE development stack. ( You can always argue about the use of J2EE.... ). As for WebSphere, I've used 5.0 thru 6.0, love the product, found it very stable. BUT, YOU NEED TRAINING..... This is NOT a product that is usuable without training.
  9. At least here on México i have found many websphere based installations (i used to work mostly for financial institutions) but never found a single systems guy who could say "i love websphere". The reason they must work with websphere is way beyond technical, its more an institutional reason given their huge investments with the "Big Blue" technology (monstly hardware/mainframe). I Have used weblogic, jboss, jrun, OAS, glassfish and websphere and never found anything more difficult and bloated as websphere, i know you need training and its always a good thing to be trained, but websphere was the only one that made me think on training (or at least invest hours on google and ibm's massive technical sites) even to accomplish the most elemental tasks just to obtain exactly the same results than with any other AS. IBM philosophy as i see: "If one thing seems to be just too simple there is a great opportunity to make it difficult" Regards
  10. +1 My bet is with Glassfish3 on app servers. Jboss is also good option.
  11. IBM philosophy as i see: "If one thing seems to be just too simple there is a great opportunity to make it difficult"

    Regards
    That's exactly it. I hope you don't mind if I steal it. I would change it around a little: At IBM 'simplicity' means an opportunity to make something needlessly complex.
  12. At IBM 'simplicity' means an opportunity to make something needlessly complex. LOL. you made my day.. Well.. actually I was under the impression that WAS was a better product from IBM compared to their other products, but surprised to hear the feedback. Inside IBM though, Websphere is the Hero..
  13. At IBM 'simplicity' means an opportunity to make something needlessly complex.

    LOL. you made my day..

    Well.. actually I was under the impression that WAS was a better product from IBM compared to their other products, but surprised to hear the feedback.

    Inside IBM though, Websphere is the Hero..
    Everything IBM sells is called WebSphere these days. Even if it's for COBOL. I went to some IBM training for a WebSphere product that's not written in Java and doesn't fully integrate with Java and in fact is based on something that, I believe, predates Java. The trainer (a lifer at IBM) told us that IBM employs someone full-time with the sole responsibility is to come up with new names and acronyms for products. I don't know if it's true but it wouldn't surprise me.
  14. IBM often changes product names and customers have complained about it in the past. They also have products that appears to compete with other products from IBM -- at least for an outsider, it appears so. To make matters worse they acquire companies. Websphere is their successful brand. Java is the reason why IBM is still relevant in the market today. But, it still surprises me how Weblogic lost market share to IBM.
  15. it still surprises me how Weblogic lost market share to IBM.
    I think I know why. Over the past 9 years I've had occasion to work with both IBM and BEA and their application servers. They were competing head on for our business. BEA's products were much better - technically - and their technical folks were head and shoulders above IBM's. However, BEA's Sales & Marketing and general corporate attitude toward customers was so awful that in each case we held our noses and chose IBM just to avoid BEA. In 2 cases BEA was the incumbent (Tuxedo) and they managed to alienate the account so much that the technical merits of their products no longer mattered nor did the pricing. IBM didn't win. BEA gave it away. It's very sad because BEA really did have some good stuff. Their sales and marketing folks will be happier at Oracle than their technical guys.
  16. it still surprises me how Weblogic lost market share to IBM.
    IBM didn't win. BEA gave it away.
    I might be wrong, but my recollection is that, when WSAD4 came out, WebSphere does beat Weblogic when it comes to developer productivity. Well, it is a long long time ago.
  17. Very Interesting. Thanks!
  18. it still surprises me how Weblogic lost market share to IBM.


    I think I know why. Over the past 9 years I've had occasion to work with both IBM and BEA and their application servers. They were competing head on for our business. BEA's products were much better - technically - and their technical folks were head and shoulders above IBM's. However, BEA's Sales & Marketing and general corporate attitude toward customers was so awful that in each case we held our noses and chose IBM just to avoid BEA. In 2 cases BEA was the incumbent (Tuxedo) and they managed to alienate the account so much that the technical merits of their products no longer mattered nor did the pricing. IBM didn't win. BEA gave it away.

    It's very sad because BEA really did have some good stuff. Their sales and marketing folks will be happier at Oracle than their technical guys.
    My personal opinion was that BEA's pricing was a large part of the problem. When we were evaluating app-servers back in the day when they were considered a necessity, we really wanted to go with WebLogic over WebSphere. For a single instance of WebLogic, the cost was better than WebSphere (IIRC). But, BEA refused to offer discounts on more instances. So it was the cost of a single license x N instances. IBM's pricing model charged a lot for the first instance and then each further instance was much cheaper. There was no way we could convince our clients to purchase WebLogic. Even for just two instances WebSphere was cheaper and the cost for WebLogic was double from there on out. It was really idiotic because it's not like it costs them any more to allow the client to install more instances. Whatever price they charged for one more instances, it was pure profit. By being completely unreasonable douche-bags about the whole thing they lost the sale.
  19. WSAD is a wonderful product. I think it is the best INTEGRATED J2EE development stack. ( You can always argue about the use of J2EE.... ). As for WebSphere, I've used 5.0 thru 6.0, love the product, found it very stable. BUT, YOU NEED TRAINING..... This is NOT a product that is usuable without training.
    I was trained by IBM on WebSphere. I worked for IBM as an e-Business hosting administrator, administering large WAS 5.0 base and ND and WAS 5.1 ND. I have 3 years of experience working in websphere production environments and in the last 3 years have had the oportunity of working with WebSphere 5.1 nd, 6.0 nd and 6.1 nd on windows. WebSphere 6.0 and ND on AS/400. Tomcat on Linux and windows. Having all that working exp with WAS, I can say that WebSphere is crap, I am not saying is the worst product in the world, there's also Oracle app server though :P I can also add that IBM has the worst technical support in the market by far. Finally, we are migrating all of our ecommerce environment (ie. b2c and b2b) to jboss :)
  20. I'll second that. Having used Websphere at IBM and at other places, it's a royal PITA to use. Once it's up and stable, it's fine. Getting there takes a lot of patience. Other servers EJB and servlet are considerably easier to setup and maintain. peter
  21. ... no matter how irrelevant, because the inevitible "WebSphere sucks" rants come pouring in, and I absolutely love reading those. Seriously, I've never seen a more hated piece of software, due to it's horrible complexity and resource bloat, particularly in the Java world. And I love seing the big boys (read: IBM) take it in the nose. So, please everyone, bring on the anti-WebSphere rants! Maybe, just maybe, some CEO/CTO/IT manager, etc, will read them and get a clue, and realize that buying WebSphere licenses is not such a good idea, in spite of the IBM rep taking them golfing or something. Then Java devs can deal with more palitable solutions.
  22. How about No.2 Apache Geronimo?[ Go to top ]

    I am surprised to see all these discussion about WebSphere while no discussion around Apache Geronimo, which is ranked at no. 2. It is ranked high across the broad and right after WebSphere. I am really surprised by this as Apache Geronimo is still a relatively new project. Well, I guess it is so much more fun to throw tomatoes at the No. 1 and the big guy rather than talk about new projects.
  23. WebSlowFear[ Go to top ]

    Last time I tried WebSlowFear it was so memory hungry and could take minutes and minutes to startup, how is it wrt to these two metrics these days? Plus, what does WebSlowFear have to offer that JBoss and Glassfish don't have?
  24. WSAD is a wonderful product. I think it is the best INTEGRATED J2EE development stack.
    it was the best ..., to be accurate. Now WSAD is ancient.
  25. Worst tools[ Go to top ]

    I totally agree with you. Websphere application server and RAD are the worst tools that I have ever used. And they are so damn costly. There are so many free or much cheaper tools out there which are tons better than IBM. Unfortunately I am stuck with WAS and RAD because of the client that I am working for.
  26. Re: Worst tools[ Go to top ]

    I totally agree with you. Websphere application server and RAD are the worst tools that I have ever used
    Somebody once gave me a chocolate fireguard. THAT was a more useful tool that this IBM junk.
  27. Re: Flame on[ Go to top ]

    Both Websphere and RAD (wSAD), have always been difficult to use, bloated, unreliable pieces of crap.
    Couldn't have put it better myself.
  28. I for one want to be more positive than these other skeptics and cynics. WebSphere Application Server is the best J2EE application server that runs natively on z/OS. If you don't run z/OS then I can suggest a half a dozen others you might prefer.
  29. Maybe it's just me ...[ Go to top ]

    ... eh, I dunno ... I'm just not interested in most of the stuff on this site any more. The stickied content has "A RESTful Core" ... "OpenESBs" ... "jBPM and Spring" ... "JSF Flex" ... "Asynchronous IO and SEDA Model" .. the exciting "Physhun finite state modeling framework" - God knows I love me a good finite state machine - ... seems like a lot of esoteric and increaingly specialized ... stuff. In today's batch, on the other hand, we have the usual insane lies from IBM about their repellant toolset, the opportunity to use JRuby and Swing to build apps, which certainly sounds like it will simplify my life, the lightweight jKoolOnline, which, according to the pusher, adds perhaps 10%-30% overhead to your app, helping us to reconsider the outdated ideas many of us may have held about the word "lightweight", a post by Axis2 yucks so compelling that it has no comments at all, a worse than useless feature stating that "the IBM JRE for Java™ SE 6 enhances IBM's class sharing feature first introduced in version 5", something I am sure we have all learned to depend upon to start our JVMs more quickly, saving the immensely important amount of productive time we had since come to associate only with revolutionary and highly significant things like JavaRebel, which itself has thankfully finally rotated off the stickied column and been rehosted at marginallyuselesscrapweretryingtounload.com ... Thankfully we also have a "pattern oriented framework for the rapid implementation of Java applications". Which I guess makes up for all the rest. I'm surprised that nobody has ever had this idea before. I understand that it "has been utilized in several large mission critical systems" as well - but I had total confidence that it would work. And confidence, these days, is a hard thing to come by.
  30. Re: Maybe it's just me ...Me Too...[ Go to top ]

    ... eh, I dunno ... I'm just not interested in most of the stuff on this site any more. The stickied content has "A RESTful Core" ... "OpenESBs" ... "jBPM and Spring" ... "JSF Flex" ... "Asynchronous IO and SEDA Model" .. the exciting "Physhun finite state modeling framework" - God knows I love me a good finite state machine - ... seems like a lot of esoteric and increaingly specialized ... stuff.



    In today's batch, on the other hand, we have the usual insane lies from IBM about their repellant toolset, the opportunity to use JRuby and Swing to build apps, which certainly sounds like it will simplify my life, the lightweight jKoolOnline, which, according to the pusher, adds perhaps 10%-30% overhead to your app, helping us to reconsider the outdated ideas many of us may have held about the word "lightweight", a post by Axis2 yucks so compelling that it has no comments at all, a worse than useless feature stating that "the IBM JRE for Java™ SE 6 enhances IBM's class sharing feature first introduced in version 5", something I am sure we have all learned to depend upon to start our JVMs more quickly, saving the immensely important amount of productive time we had since come to associate only with revolutionary and highly significant things like JavaRebel, which itself has thankfully finally rotated off the stickied column and been rehosted at marginallyuselesscrapweretryingtounload.com ...

    Thankfully we also have a "pattern oriented framework for the rapid implementation of Java applications".

    Which I guess makes up for all the rest. I'm surprised that nobody has ever had this idea before. I understand that it "has been utilized in several large mission critical systems" as well - but I had total confidence that it would work.

    And confidence, these days, is a hard thing to come by.
    every article i read now a days is "catchy " headline and crappy inside, half baked ideas or just plain non-sense. i used to be a daily visitor on this site and now its bi-weekly. Not that it matters to anyone. My point being the site has lost its efficacy, the good intention it was started with. good luck ..
  31. Maybe it's a sign of an healthy ecosystem? A lot of rubbish besides the occasional gem. It feels very much like opengl.org though, when I was into that sort of tech. A platform that seems to survive amongst it newer and spiffier rivals. Anyway, LOL on that original post.
  32. Somebody remind me...[ Go to top ]

    ... why do we need an application server again?
  33. Re: Somebody remind me...[ Go to top ]

    That is Silly. Tomcat is best.
  34. Re: Somebody remind me...[ Go to top ]

    Ya, let's put away java and use PHP. Or perhaps Perl ...
  35. Re: Somebody remind me...[ Go to top ]

    +1 I'm looking at PHP and specially version 5.3 it supports already namespaces and closures and scales pretty well horizontally, It is not bad. Another is Python with Django also a good option, I think already someone is running Django over Jython 2.5 and Pypy.
  36. Re: Somebody remind me...[ Go to top ]

    Tomcat - all the best!
  37. hmmmmm... usage[ Go to top ]

    First question that comes to mind is: Why would I need a heavy platform like Websphere? Most projects do not need a overkill in appserver where something like tomcat or even jetty would suffise. Check you're requirements before you throw away alot of money on product you do not even need. Kind regards, Marc
  38. Re: hmmmmm... usage[ Go to top ]

    Why would I need a heavy platform like Websphere?
    You need heavy (runtime) platform from big player if you work on mission critical and/or high money stake project where you absolutely must meet certain SLAs (up time, proper transaction handling, no message ever gets lost). If something goes wrong on Tomcat and project is mission critical you (referring to general public, team of business application developers with no or little knowledge of middleware development) are boned since you cant fix it as fast as whole department of techie experts any big player can. Speaking in John Davies terms, if I, as your customer say following: "If any message gets lots by using your solution, you will have to pay back to us the amount the message was worth in business terms". So if you lose one message worth 1 million, you pay back to us. Now, what you would do? Would you use ActiveMQ or WebSphere MQ? I aint saying one solution is good and other is bad, just saying that generally big customers want to use technical solutions from big players. That's the way things are.
  39. Re: hmmmmm... usage[ Go to top ]

    Now, what you would do? Would you use ActiveMQ or WebSphere MQ?
    A perfect example of IBM renaming something that has very little to do with Java to "WebSphere ..." It's just MQSeries with the WS name applied.
  40. Re: hmmmmm... usage[ Go to top ]

    Now, what you would do? Would you use ActiveMQ or WebSphere MQ?


    A perfect example of IBM renaming something that has very little to do with Java to "WebSphere ..." It's just MQSeries with the WS name applied.
    And confuse a lot of recruiting companies and consultants who think Websphere MQ guys are J2EE folks..
  41. At least one thing...[ Go to top ]

    One good thing about IBM at least is that it beat JBOSS to releasing a JEE5 certified compliant appserver. So hopefully, they will get better / faster adding new features in the future.
  42. Re: At least one thing...[ Go to top ]

    One good thing about IBM at least is that it beat JBOSS to releasing a JEE5 certified compliant appserver. So hopefully, they will get better / faster adding new features in the future.
    And the L&M Horse Carriage company beat Toyota to releasing a "Hackney certified" horse carriage. It's faster and has more features than earlier horse carriages and now it has springs!
  43. If by "anything" you mean "junk", and by "better than" you mean "a piece of" then I'd say you're correct. Well, #!@# me if I haven't just "upgraded" from WAS to Tomcat. Now I'll have to "upgrade" back on this advice if Websfear is the best.
  44. The Websphere Marketing team must be overjoyed to read the recent EDC report...
    This reminds me of the now classic thread: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=48157
  45. I have been working with WebSphere since 2000. It, probably, is the most robust of all the J2EE app servers available till date. I am a great fan of WebSphere though RAD 7, its IDE, still has some bugs. What is surprising is that it still managed to get the top spot in spite of not having EJB 3.0. We know IBM is little slow in picking up the latest J2EE specs but still it's been quite some time since EJB 3.0 was out.
  46. Checkout product website: http://www-01.ibm.com/software/webservers/appserv/was/
  47. I have been working with WebSphere since 2000. It, probably, is the most robust of all the J2EE app servers available till date. I am a great fan of WebSphere though RAD 7, its IDE, still has some bugs. What is surprising is that it still managed to get the top spot in spite of not having EJB 3.0. We know IBM is little slow in picking up the latest J2EE specs but still it's been quite some time since EJB 3.0 was out.
    Actually, WAS has had EJB 3.0 support since November 30, 2007 when the EJB 3.0 feature pack for WAS 6.1 was released. Licensed WAS 6.1 customers can download the feature pack for free at http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?rs=180&uid=swg27008534 . This URL also lists the other feature packs available for WAS 6.1, such as the feature pack for web services (adds JAX-WS and related support), and the feature pack for "Web 2.0" (adds support for AJAX and other web 2.0 technologies). WAS 7.0 also supports EJB 3.0 and the entire set of Java EE v5 technologies.
  48. Personally, I'm glad to see all products get better. WebSphere has gone from bad to tolerable to usable to workable in the last several releases. Several things that were impossible in older releases have become nearly trivial (e.g., setting up Kerberos single sign-on with Windows Active Directory).
  49. Please lets not confuse the quality of MQ with a product like WAS. I worked with WAS 5.0 and WAS 6 and personally, as a developer/ architect, I do not like WAS. It is not bad, it is simply: slow, heavy and make simple thinks very complicated. WAS have some strong points for administration purposed. The Integration with RAD is totally unsynchronised with the Workspace (have you ever count the number of start/stop/redeploy you did during a project live time) When you talk to people that actually like WAS, you realize quickly that these people have never used anything else. For these people, all this complexity is normal and part of the job. When a company, today, select WAS as there main container, it is rarely base on a technical decision. Man it feels good to see that I am not the only one thinking like this about this product.
  50. WAS is too heavy. I'd rather to trade features for simplicity.