News: Introduction to Spring Faces Part 1
- Posted by: Kito Mann
- Posted on: October 27 2008 12:38 EDT
- Re: Introduction to Spring Faces Part 1 by Ichiro Hashiya on October 28 2008 08:00 EDT
- Jump the shark by greg matthews on October 28 2008 18:14 EDT
- Re: Jump the shark by Rod Johnson on October 28 2008 18:47 EDT
- Re: Jump the shark by Keith Donald on October 28 2008 19:02 EDT
- Re: Unfair criticism by Ian Hlavats on October 29 2008 10:31 EDT
- Re: Introduction to Spring Faces Part 1 by Faro G on October 30 2008 11:50 EDT
- Why not just use Seam pageflow by Joshua Partogi on October 30 2008 19:39 EDT
- Script Faces by Alex Ander on October 30 2008 23:34 EDT
For me, Hibernate + ZK + Spring is the best MVC design pattern.
I think Spring Source have jumped the shark by going anywhere near JSF. Webflow 1 rocked, in that it solved a huge number of problems that would otherwise require a roll-your-own solution, e.g. extra scopes (flash, conversation, flow), post-redirect-get support, the very notion of scripting flows together with multiple named in/out params between flows. Awesome stuff. Rich navigation out of the box. On top of webflow, using Sitemesh + JSP .tag files + jQuery (or insert your favourite JS library here) pretty much provides everything I need in the UI layer. No matter how hard I try, I still can't get my head around the concept of JSF being so server-side oriented. I mean, I use Dreamweaver and the Adobe tools and still fail to see how JSF is ever going to look any good compared to the alternatives. My second pick would be Flex depending on the level of adventure that the customer has. Not trying to flame anyone here, I just think "the emperor has no clothes", watch amusingly at all the JSF hype, and wonder when it will die a death like entity beans. I also wonder if SpringSource did this so they could tick the "We're JSF compliant box" ??
Greg You don't need to use JSF with Spring Web Flow. The distribution contains both MVC and JSF-based samples. One aim in SWF 2.0 was to ensure that people who want to use JSF can still benefit from SWF, and that SWF flows work with a wider choice of view technology. There are many other enhancements (such as simpler flow definitions and many new features) that benefit all SWF users, even if they are not interested in JSF. Our view is that it's up to developers whether they want to use JSF, not up to us. Whatever their choice, we hope that SWF will provide them with significant value. Rgds Rod
GregHi Rod, I know it's optional. It still surprised me to see Spring support JSF given that you were the one who poked great big holes through J2EE way back in the Expert One-on-One book. JSF seems similar to J2EE in that regard, i.e. a lot of hoopla about nothing - compared to a Sitemesh, jQuery, .tag, Adobe approach. It surprised me as much as if you had released a "Have fun with Entity Beans" book. One comment on webflow 2 is that it would have been nice if it was backwards compatible with webflow 1 flow definitions. I need to take a closer look but I kind of like in webflow 1 having a *FormAction class which has a bunch of methods with the following signature public Event doSomething(RequestContext context) It lets me keep as much code as possible in Java and checkable by the compiler rather than having more mapping *variation* in webflow XML files. That is, it *seems* like programming in XML under webflow 2. Unit testing of the flow under webflow 2 seems a whole lot more important due to that variation and increased complexity in XML mapping, but I need to take a closer look. I haven't really done anything with webflow 2 yet. Regards,
You don't need to use JSF with Spring Web Flow.
I know it's optional. It still surprised me to see Spring support JSF given that you were the one who poked great big holes through J2EE way back in the Expert One-on-One book. JSF seems similar to J2EE in that regard, i.e. a lot of hoopla about nothing - compared to a Sitemesh, jQuery, .tag, Adobe approach. It surprised me as much as if you had released a "Have fun with Entity Beans" book.Well... IIRC, Rod never said "entity beans are always wrong." (Maybe I'm in error... my copies of Rod's books are about 200 miles away from me right now.) EJB 2.x Entity beans are the right solution to... well... a very narrow set of problems that you're not likely to run into very often, as it turns out. If you have THAT PROBLEM, then maybe they're the right solution, and I'd be surprised if Rod didn't support them in that case. JSF has its own use cases. It's not a bad technology; it's also not a perfect or omnipresent technology. Spring supporting JSF means good things for JSF and good things for Spring.
I know it's optional. It still surprised me to see Spring support JSF given that you were the one who poked great big holes through J2EE way back in the Expert One-on-One book. JSF seems similar to J2EE in that regard, i.e. a lot of hoopla about nothing - compared to a Sitemesh, jQuery, .tag, Adobe approach.Spring is no longer the leftist (or progressive, to be accurate) student it used to be. It is now a middle aged entrepreneur :-)
It surprised me as much as if you had released a "Have fun with Entity Beans" book.
Hi Keith, This is Henri Chen from ZK project(open source Java Ajax Framework, http://www.zkoss.org). We are doing ZK and Spring Web Flow integration. I wonder if we can have some discussion on what is the best way to do such integration. I have had some progress but do need some suggestions from the original author of the Spring Web Flow. Thanks in advance. My email is henrichen AT zkoss DOT org. Best regards, Henri Chen The ZK Team http://www.zkoss.org
I use Dreamweaver and the Adobe tools and still fail to see how JSF is ever going to look any good compared to the alternatives.Hey Greg, I also use the Adobe tools and my development team uses JSF extensively. Like you I am very impressed with the quality of Adobe's products, and their innovation with Flash, Flex and other technologies. What I like about JSF is the clean MVC2 design, stable API, extensibility, large number of third-party UI component libraries, and more. My company has tried to bring together the best of both worlds by allowing web designers to work on JSF applications with Adobe tools. I was testing our JSF extensions in Adobe Dreamweaver CS4 recently and I was amazed; I have yet to see such a stunningly beautiful UI development environment. Combined with the now hundreds of JSF UI components available, I think JSF and Dreamweaver are an excellent set of tools for Java web development. JSF is not an alternative to Adobe tools; you can easily use Adobe tools for JSF development. Dreamweaver aside, you can also use FlexBuilder to create Flex widgets and then wrap them with Fiji tags or JSF Flex tags. JSF is not perfect, but it's still evolving and the EG is responsive to features requests, bug reports, etc. I think the JSF community is healthy and many companies and individuals are getting involved in the JSF ecosystem on mailing lists, at conferences, Java users groups, etc. Your analogy with entity beans is misplaced. I think a better analogy would be EJB 2.x and EJB3. JSF is evolving; just look at how Facelets is now standard in JSF 2.0 and how Ajax will be standardized. In time I think JSF will evolve just like EJB did. I think some of the criticism JSF receives is targeted at plain JSF (that is, JSF without any third party add-ons such as Seam, Facelets, etc). I have to remind these critics that JSF was designed to be extended and this is not a flaw in the framework. It's good to see the Spring Faces project brings more Spring integration into the JSF space. Ian Hlavats JSFToolbox - Design JSF pages in Dreamweaver
Ian, A bit off topic here... Curious... What tools do you use with Dreamweaver for JSF development. I am also interested in the tools which work for both CS3 and CS4 releases of DW. Thanks, Yaakov.
Ian,Hi Yaakov, My company develops JSF extensions for Dreamweaver. Please see our website, http://www.jsftoolbox.com. We have Dreamweaver extensions for JSF Core/HTML, Facelets, Seam, Apache Tomahawk/Trinidad, and ICEfaces components (over 300+ components), and we are planning on supporting even more JSF component suites in 2009. Our extensions include a wide range of design-time support for JSF UI development in Dreamweaver. I demoed some of these new features at JSFOne this past September. You can also read about our tools on JSFCentral.com. We have a major release coming up that will include support for DW CS3 and CS4 and more... stay tuned. Thanks for your interest! Ian
A bit off topic here...
Curious... What tools do you use with Dreamweaver for JSF development. I am also interested in the tools which work for both CS3 and CS4 releases of DW.
What I like about JSF is the clean MVC2 design, stable API, extensibility, large number of third-party UI component libraries, and more.For something that's been "evolving" now for, what?, 6-7+ years, it's still quite complicated, kludgy, and generally off the mark. By 'off the mark', JSF doesn't really solve any problems that I need solved -- rich navigation, Post-Redirect-Get support, extra scopes (flow, conversation, flash). It takes SpringSource to bolt JSF + webflow together to make JSF usable (for some victims). It surprises me that supposed web toolkits still get released that don't support the above features. Bunging some jQuery code into a JSP page, or a .tag that retrieves JSON data via AJAX is pretty damn easy, and avoids black box pain that JSF delivers. On component libraries, I don't want a "large number of third-party UI component libraries". I tend to build public facing sites, and have found rich navigation + dumb pages (with touches of jQuery/JSON/AJAX) works fine. I've also been fairly horrified at the volume of HTML that typically appears in JSF pages when you view source in the browser. I prefer to have complete control over that for performance reasons, and yes it does make a big difference esp. for a larger number of users.
Spring Faces is a very good initiative. I agree JSF support was not good and it took years to get mature. But now we should focus on present and in present JSF 1.2.9 + Facelets 1.14 + Seam 2.x + Rich Faces 3.2.x OR IceFaces OR WoodStock 4.3 + Ajax4JSF together with Spring makes a very strong and professional web framework stack. We are just finished with a very large project in BI SOA domain using JSF(many CRUDS and some Dashboards) + Facelets + Seam + AJAX and RichFaces and we are v happy with overall productivity and good looking GUIs. With JSF 2.0 is just a month away and many things are getting fixed Get + EzComp + Ajax + PDL + Skinning + Facelets etc. My experience is JSF is getting good day by day. Companies like JBoss,IBM , Oracle, BEA etc are supporting it. Netbeans 6.5 has good JSF CRUD generator, means challenging Rails productivity and getting your web apps up quickly. Nothing is perfect and we can always learn and improve. Spring and SEAM supports conversational scopes, Rest, Bean Outjection this all is really very promising. We should now start talking about how to make it more next generation( integrating with something like JavaFX etc, more client side).
Why not just use Seam pageflow instead? It's much more natural to JSF. *sigh* Spring doesn't provide overall solution to JSF unlike Seam.