SpringSource Acquires G2One

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News: SpringSource Acquires G2One

  1. SpringSource Acquires G2One (65 messages)

    I was pre-briefed by Rod Johnson on this, and it seems to be one of the more intriguing Java story lines of the year. First, it indicates that SpringSource is taken steps to broaden the appeal of its technologies on the Java platform. Second, that appeal is beyond Java itself to other languages that run on the Java platform. It will be interesting to see if SpringSource is the company that steps up to the plate and takes the primary leadership role in advancing the Java platform. I would not have expected it, but it's about time someone did. Here's the link to the press release: http://www.springsource.com/node/837 .

    Threaded Messages (65)

  2. Well done guys[ Go to top ]

    Interesting acquisition, it's always interesting watching SpringSource as there's usually a very clever reason behind their moves. Well done guys, -John-
  3. Re: Well done guys[ Go to top ]

    Interesting acquisition, it's always interesting watching SpringSource as there's usually a very clever reason behind their moves.
    Possibly the most interesting thing about this is that effectively, they bought their most dangerous competition. I've been waiting for people to realize that a good, concise dynamic language that provides clean integration with Java largely obviates the need for DI containers and/or allows for much more powerful approaches to DI containers.
  4. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    It will be interesting to see if SpringSource is the company that steps up to the plate and takes the primary leadership role in advancing the Java platform. I would not have expected it, but it's about time someone did.
    Have you been sleeping? Sun is lost in the weeds looking for an OSS strategy and JBoss is stumbling around after self-inflicted implosion. Who better to run with the torch than Spring?
  5. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    Who better to run with the torch than Spring?
    LOL...That's the funniest thing I have heard today...Now what is Spring's contrbution to the platform..um... lets see... 1. A wrapper which is possibly useless with JEE6 2. er... anything else ? Sun always promoted java even though they never made much money.. spring on the other hand (after the acquisition) has neve looked beyond it's own interest and cannot be trusted any longer....
  6. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    LOL...That's the funniest thing I have heard today...Now what is Spring's contrbution to the platform..um... lets see...
    1. A wrapper which is possibly useless with JEE6
    2. er... anything else ?

    Sun always promoted java even though they never made much money.. spring on the other hand (after the acquisition) has neve looked beyond it's own interest and cannot be trusted any longer....
    Sun looks weak right now, and not only from a Wall Street sense, but from a complete OSS strategy and direction sense. You can belittle Spring's technology all you want, but they are certainly doing something right - they went from a consulting shop with a framework to a leading and influential business in a short time. And yes, it's a business, not a charity.
  7. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    they went from a consulting shop with a framework to a leading and influential business in a short time. And yes, it's a business, not a charity.
    Do you have any numbers to support this? Common perception is SpringSource is probably in a much weaker financial situation in terms of cash inflow compared to Sun. Sun is struggling but so is every major company and they were profitable till last quarter before the crash.
  8. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    Do you have any numbers to support this? Common perception is SpringSource is probably in a much weaker financial situation in terms of cash inflow compared to Sun. Sun is struggling but so is every major company and they were profitable till last quarter before the crash.
    Not all major companies are struggling... my McDonalds stock is going gangbusters. ;-) Maybe Sun should switch to selling open-source burgers? Consider that Sun and Spring are at different stages of their companies evolutions, so a comparison isn't clean. My own view/perception is that Spring is striving to be a leader, while Sun is busy soul-searching... just my .02.
  9. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    they went from a consulting shop with a framework to a leading and influential business in a short time. And yes, it's a business, not a charity.


    Do you have any numbers to support this? Common perception is SpringSource is probably in a much weaker financial situation in terms of cash inflow compared to Sun. Sun is struggling but so is every major company and they were profitable till last quarter before the crash.
    The idea of Spring taking stewardship of Java is crazy talk. Looking after Java requires theoreticians (e.g. Gilad), compiler experts, Swing and graphics experts, lots of maintainers and bureaucracy and much, much more. i.e. you need deep pockets and an iron stomach for these things. Sun has a capitalisation of around $4-5bn. Sure, there are problems, but they aren't in any risk of dying. They could almost affort to buy themselves out and go private with the cash they have on hand. Spring on the other hand, is a small, private company that has around $20m of VC capital in the bank. What you are proposing doesn't make sense. However, I'm sure IBM is watching the whole SUN saga with interest. At some point, buying it out will make sense. And believe me, they have very deep pockets. Andrew
  10. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    The idea of Spring taking stewardship of Java is crazy talk. Looking after Java requires theoreticians (e.g. Gilad), compiler experts, Swing and graphics experts, lots of maintainers and bureaucracy and much, much more. i.e. you need deep pockets and an iron stomach for these things.

    Sun has a capitalisation of around $4-5bn
    It's a good point. I think though that it might make sense for Sun to stick to the core platform (language, JDK and VM) now that there is a healthy ecosystem of frameworks, application servers and Java standards bodies outside of Sun.

  11. Sun has a capitalisation of around $4-5bn

    Hahahaha thats the best joke. Suns capital is 2.5B and a 1.2 debt. Looks like you have you forecast cut out short :)

  12. Sun has a capitalisation of around $4-5bn



    Hahahaha thats the best joke. Suns capital is 2.5B and a 1.2 debt. Looks like you have you forecast cut out short :)
    Ok, so it fell a bit in the last few weeks. Show me a stock which hasn't. It does have close to £3b in cash, though. Andrew
  13. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    Sun is struggling but so is every major company and they were profitable till last quarter before the crash.
    Sun's market cap just hit $3bln, and so did their cash reserve. And compared to IBM or HP, they're actually doing much worse. Forbes speculates that Sun has to sell of itself or some of its assets: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/12/suns_market_cap_below_3bn_dollars/
  14. Slowly Springsource and others like JBoss did for exadel buy out all the open source organizations like apache, sun. they will ask you to buy the license in order to use these technologies and this acquisition is just a hint to that...
  15. Quit yer bitching[ Go to top ]

    At which point we'll just have to all start writing our own code again rather than free loading off the outstandingly brilliant creative works of others!
  16. Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    Now what is Spring's contrbution to the platform..um... lets see...
    1. A wrapper which is possibly useless with JEE6
    You're quick to forget that Spring was one of, if not the driving factor behind the paradigm shift to "lightweight Java" and JEE 5. Not to mention that Spring is still more capable and provides tight integration with more Java technologies than one can list. They're certainly not going to be sitting on their laurels while they wait for JEE 6 to come around. But good luck waiting for that. Spring is like JavaEE's younger brother who never went to college but still became more successful.
  17. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    You're quick to forget that Spring was one of, if not the driving factor behind the paradigm shift to "lightweight Java" and JEE 5.
    "...the driving factor..."? Yes, many of their excellent ideas have been picked up by JEE and Seam. No, SpringSource did not push for this! SpringSource's idea is to be the "lightweight" alternative to JEE, therefore it's not in their interest to make JEE "lightweight". Because when JEE is "lightweight" no one needs SpringSource's main products (Spring FW, Spring MVC). I love SpringSource's products, but I find them much less needed today than five years ago. RIP, my love!
  18. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    You're quick to forget that Spring was one of, if not the driving factor behind the paradigm shift to "lightweight Java" and JEE 5.


    "...the driving factor..."? Yes, many of their excellent ideas have been picked up by JEE and Seam. No, SpringSource did not push for this!

    SpringSource's idea is to be the "lightweight" alternative to JEE, therefore it's not in their interest to make JEE "lightweight". Because when JEE is "lightweight" no one needs SpringSource's main products (Spring FW, Spring MVC).

    I love SpringSource's products, but I find them much less needed today than five years ago. RIP, my love!
    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download. I also agree with your assessment that Rod has positioned his company as an "alternative" to Java EE. Beyond being a gross exageration (they are a complement rather than an alternative), this is exactly how Rod positions himself in the EE JSR and pretty much fights against any forward movement of the platform. Say what you want about JBoss, but at least we've shared our IP with the Java community by bringing both Hibernate and Seam to a standards body. Then, if our business practices offend you for some reason, you can always move to another implementation. You can't say the same thing about Spring. -- Bill Burke JBoss, a division of Red Hat http://bill.burkecentral.com
  19. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.
    Don't laugh too hard, I'm laughing at your misunderstanding of what lightweight is. I'd expect it from many others, but not you Bill. As it's been pointed out numerous times, lightweight has nothing to do with the dependency size, rather at how it impacts your application's design and its constraints. Ilya
  20. here we go again...[ Go to top ]

    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.


    Don't laugh too hard, I'm laughing at your misunderstanding of what lightweight is. I'd expect it from many others, but not you Bill. As it's been pointed out numerous times, lightweight has nothing to do with the dependency size, rather at how it impacts your application's design and its constraints.

    Ilya
    the relentless and never-ending Spring vs. JBoss fight. Dynamic dependency injection with Seam and static DI with Spring, distributed tx support with JBoss/JTA and none with Spring, conversation and business process context support in Seam/Web Beans, etc. but it would be nice if Spring was part of a JSR. So what happens if SpringSource goes bankrupt one of these days??? Who will provide production and technical support and training for your Spring-based apps?
  21. Re: here we go again...[ Go to top ]

    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.


    Don't laugh too hard, I'm laughing at your misunderstanding of what lightweight is. I'd expect it from many others, but not you Bill. As it's been pointed out numerous times, lightweight has nothing to do with the dependency size, rather at how it impacts your application's design and its constraints.

    Ilya


    the relentless and never-ending Spring vs. JBoss fight. Dynamic dependency injection with Seam and static DI with Spring, distributed tx support with JBoss/JTA and none with Spring, conversation and business process context support in Seam/Web Beans, etc.

    but it would be nice if Spring was part of a JSR. So what happens if SpringSource goes bankrupt one of these days??? Who will provide production and technical support and training for your Spring-based apps?
    Hmmm, what happens if Redhat goes bankrupt? Who will support your linux distros and Seam applications? I think being that it's open source software, you're more than welcome to take it, maintain it, etc... Most likely the large community of users will take over. With your thinking, you shouldn't use anything outside of IBM's products, though these days I don't think you'd be safe even with them. Ilya
  22. back on topic[ Go to top ]

    well anyways, hopefully it was a good strategic move for SpringSource to buy G2One, Inc. So now you have DI, AOP, and Groovy/Grails all in one Java EE development stack. How bout conversational web services support like Seam? And now I have a really good reason to continue reading my Groovy in Action book and learn about closures, etc. (are closures supported yet in Java 6/7?) IIRC, the last chapter in Groovy in Action covered an intro to Grails and the project generator reminded me of seam-gen (or should I say it the other way around as perhaps seam-gen was based on an earlier equivalent concept??) Does Spring IDE provide a project generator with built-in Hibernate Tools support to revengr your db schema via hbm2java? or alternatively, forwardengr your entity classes to db schema via hbm2ddl? sorry if I didn't get my facts straight, just trying to spark up some conversation on the topic... I think I heard that JBoss 5 AS is partially based on OSGi framework. Whereas Spring dm server 1.0 embraced it fully. anybody forseeing how this G2One acquisition will affect the daily life of a Spring developer???
  23. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.


    Don't laugh too hard, I'm laughing at your misunderstanding of what lightweight is. I'd expect it from many others, but not you Bill. As it's been pointed out numerous times, lightweight has nothing to do with the dependency size, rather at how it impacts your application's design and its constraints.

    Ilya
    Ok, Compare a simple DAO in EJB3 to a simple DAO in spring. I could expand further with different examples if you want....
  24. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    Say what you want about JBoss, but at least we've shared our IP with the Java community by bringing both Hibernate and Seam to a standards body. Then, if our business practices offend you for some reason, you can always move to another implementation. You can't say the same thing about Spring.
    That might be true if you believe standards bodies actually produce something useful (i.e. EJBs pre 3, JSF 1.1, etc...). That can be debated back and forth. Also, I do agree that a standard is useful if there are many implementations of it (unless its a horrible standard like EJB 2.*). With that said, if you use Seam and it's features, who is it that provides an alternative implementation? Also, if you use Hibernate's non-JPA features, which alternative are you going to use? Wow, you guys are really full of yourself these days.
  25. alternative implementations[ Go to top ]

    Say what you want about JBoss, but at least we've shared our IP with the Java community by bringing both Hibernate and Seam to a standards body. Then, if our business practices offend you for some reason, you can always move to another implementation. You can't say the same thing about Spring.


    That might be true if you believe standards bodies actually produce something useful (i.e. EJBs pre 3, JSF 1.1, etc...). That can be debated back and forth. Also, I do agree that a standard is useful if there are many implementations of it (unless its a horrible standard like EJB 2.*). With that said, if you use Seam and it's features, who is it that provides an alternative implementation? Also, if you use Hibernate's non-JPA features, which alternative are you going to use?

    Wow, you guys are really full of yourself these days.
    There currently is no alternative implementation of Seam 2.x. Concepts from Seam, Spring and Guice are the basis of JSR 299 - Web Beans. Pete Muir of JBoss is working on the RI for Web Beans. There will most likely be follow up implementations of that spec. Regarding your second point, if you use the FlushModeType.MANUAL in a Seam app, for example, which is a Hibernate vendor extension (not currently supportedy by JPA 1.0) as follows: @Begin(join=true, flushMode=FlushModeType.MANUAL) public void foo() { ... } then if you try to port your app to TopLink Essentials JPA implementation, for example, it will break b/c TopLink AFAIK doesn't support that MANUAL flush Hibernate extension. You would then need to refactor your app. Same goes for using Hibernate extension Criteria API in JPA 1.0-based app.
  26. don't even get me started....[ Go to top ]

    Wow, you guys are really full of yourself these days.
    Christian Bauer has deleted multiple posts of mine on www.seamframework.org as well as JIRA posts. My account on that forum has been deleted or de-activated three times now. Trying to help other Seam peeps out and trying to submit patches, etc. Talk about customer service. That's what happens when the admin of a forum is a control freak negative creep. That's the main reason I get on forum.springsource.org now, much nicer and performant forum too. Looking forward to seeing some Grails integration examples and tips soon.
  27. "As you may have read in SD Times, SpringSource has been elected to the JCP Executive Committee for Java SE/EE, along with SAP, Ericsson, Nokia, Philips, and IBM. I will be the SpringSource representative." http://blog.springsource.com/ no Red Hat? :) What if Red Hat bought G2One???
  28. not sharing Spring in JCP??[ Go to top ]

    You're quick to forget that Spring was one of, if not the driving factor behind the paradigm shift to "lightweight Java" and JEE 5.


    "...the driving factor..."? Yes, many of their excellent ideas have been picked up by JEE and Seam. No, SpringSource did not push for this!

    SpringSource's idea is to be the "lightweight" alternative to JEE, therefore it's not in their interest to make JEE "lightweight". Because when JEE is "lightweight" no one needs SpringSource's main products (Spring FW, Spring MVC).

    I love SpringSource's products, but I find them much less needed today than five years ago. RIP, my love!


    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.

    I also agree with your assessment that Rod has positioned his company as an "alternative" to Java EE. Beyond being a gross exageration (they are a complement rather than an alternative), this is exactly how Rod positions himself in the EE JSR and pretty much fights against any forward movement of the platform.

    Say what you want about JBoss, but at least we've shared our IP with the Java community by bringing both Hibernate and Seam to a standards body. Then, if our business practices offend you for some reason, you can always move to another implementation. You can't say the same thing about Spring.

    --
    Bill Burke
    JBoss, a division of Red Hat
    http://bill.burkecentral.com
    That's a good point. SpringSource doesn't seem to be sharing Spring in JCP in a direct fashion that JBoss has with Hibernate(JPA) and Seam(Web Beans). One of the problems I've noticed in the Java EE space vs. the .NET space over the past several years is the "frankenstein" problem. You have these JCP EG's working in potential isolation from each other. A good example is the JSF 1.0 EG and EJB 3.0 EG. So you have the "hole" that needs to be filled by Seam and thus eradicating the managed backing bean for JSF and extending Java EE's capabilities with bijection and additional contexts. IT shops end up with these "frankenstein" stacks. Currently, for example, we are using JBoss AS with JSF/facelets/Richfaces/Seam/EJB3/JPA/Hibernate/Tomcat/mod_jk/Apache and various utility libraries like custom AD lookup and JCIFS for NTLM authentication. But at least with JBoss, you're getting Richfaces, Seam, JBoss AS, Hibernate, JBDS all under one vendor (and thus JBoss supports this under their Enterprise Application Platform). Hibernate is not part of SpringSource but now Grails is. So the Spring stack is still "frankenstein". Does the .NET space suffer from the "frankenstein" problem? If yes, not as much as Java space. Sure, there's NHibernte, Spring .NET, etc. but how many .NET projects use those offerings? The proliferation of all the JSR's in the JCP may be a good thing with the TCK's and RI's and different options and open-source software availability but it also leads to the pervasiveness of the "frankenstein" problem...
  29. Re: not sharing Spring in JCP??[ Go to top ]

    Does the .NET space suffer from the "frankenstein" problem? If yes, not as much as Java space. Sure, there's NHibernte, Spring .NET, etc. but how many .NET projects use those offerings?
    .NET is controlled by MS.. opensource frameworks will never become mainstream in MS world. MS is a heavy proponent of using Stored Procedures and so I see no scope for NHibernate. Spring.NET, there are some good ideas in Spring that MS should copy and make it part of their core framework. Besides, the .NET addresses small medium application development needs nicely -- Java isn't interested...
  30. which is really lightweight?[ Go to top ]

    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.
    springsource-dm-server-1.0.0.RELEASE is approx. 144MB after extraction from zip. jboss-4.2.3.GA is approx. 342MB after extraction from zip. giddy up...
  31. Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.


    springsource-dm-server-1.0.0.RELEASE is approx. 144MB after extraction from zip.

    jboss-4.2.3.GA is approx. 342MB after extraction from zip.

    giddy up...
    So... lightweight now means less disk space. awesome.
  32. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    RIP, my love!


    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download. Then, if our business practices offend you for some reason, you can always move to another implementation. You can't say the same thing about Spring.

    --
    Bill Burke
    JBoss, a division of Red Hat
    http://bill.burkecentral.com 80 meg is heavy? What are you typing from 1995? Sheesh. The spring guys don't haunt JBoss posts.
  33. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.
    Bill, you can get Spring Framework itself in a download that's all of 6Mb. The 80 Mb download contains every third party library that you could possibly want to use with Spring. However, please don't let the facts impede your obsessive Spring-hating. You often make my day.
  34. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    I have to agree with Rob here, Spring is light weight by today's standards. I mean, how can we argue on this?
  35. Re: Spring's contribution![ Go to top ]

    Yes I always laugh when I see Spring labeled as a "lightweight" alternative when their binary is an 80Meg download.

    Bill, you can get Spring Framework itself in a download that's all of 6Mb. The 80 Mb download contains every third party library that you could possibly want to use with Spring.

    However, please don't let the facts impede your obsessive Spring-hating. You often make my day.
    That's kinda like saying that if you take the "minimal" profile of JBoss its only 5Mb. Its not about hating, its about providing an alternate viewpoint to your propaganda. You're not as lightweight as you advertise, both in download and API. In fact, I was quite surprised how "heavyweight" Spring had become when I did some Spring integration work with the projects I'm working on. Also, you're proprietary and want to stay that way. Both valid points. Besides, how could I hate you guys now that Bearden is with you? The guy was integral in defining our sales strategy and creating a liquidity event for us. There's a lot of man-love here...
  36. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]


    1. A wrapper which is possibly useless with JEE6
    Why woudn't Spring work with EE6?
  37. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    LOL...That's the funniest thing I have heard today...Now what is Spring's contrbution to the platform
    Don't underestimate the power of a destructive contribution. Love or hate Spring, the destruction of EJB2, of which Rod played a leading role, is of immense benefit to the Java development community. Sometimes you've got to break a few rotten eggs...
  38. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    It will be interesting to see if SpringSource is the company that steps up to the plate and takes the primary leadership role in advancing the Java platform. I would not have expected it, but it's about time someone did.


    Have you been sleeping? Sun is lost in the weeds looking for an OSS strategy and JBoss is stumbling around after self-inflicted implosion. Who better to run with the torch than Spring?
    Yup, JBoss imploded after the Rock of our organization, Roy Russo, left the company. ;-) Come back and rescue us Roy before its too late! -- Bill Burke JBoss, a division of Red Hat http://bill.burkecentral.com
  39. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    Come back and rescue us Roy before its too late!

    --
    Bill Burke
    Bill, not even *I* can get JBoss 5 released. ;-)
  40. License[ Go to top ]

    It's also worth noting that Groovy & Grails' license will remain Apache 2, since a lot of people seem to be asking.
  41. wow...[ Go to top ]

    what a waste of money.
  42. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    This is really interesting. Not sure what is the exact motive behind this move into scripting languages. But lets not bash sun or spring in what they are doing. We all should admit that spring has really taken java to a different level. It has great features and makes life easy for a lot of things. And ofcourse comes with its own baggage of too many options, too many config files and stuff like that. :). Just use it wisely. And whatever is sun is goign thru is not just about java, but many other things. whatever it is ... lets stick to the point - spring acquiring g20one.
  43. Re: SpringSource Acquires G2One[ Go to top ]

    What is the point of all this dynamic language stuff? Seriously, goto grails.org try the five minute CRUD app (it will take you only five minutes, not including download time for grails). After you realize the power and conciseness, realize that the application is built on Spring, Hibernate, etc... and that you have all the power of a traditional Java web application with the convenience of a Ruby on Rails application. That is why Spring is interested in it. Grails could be described as RoR, but stable and scalable.
  44. Licence implications[ Go to top ]

    Is anyone else concerned about what will they do with Grails licence in the long run? Yes I know they said Apache 2.0 for now, but will they later come up with some "new maintenance policy" like they did with spring?
  45. what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    will JBoss Seam and/or Web Beans ever get mainstream adoption in the Java EE space?? this sounds like an interesting situation for SpringSource...
  46. Re: what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    will JBoss Seam and/or Web Beans ever get mainstream adoption in the Java EE space??

    this sounds like an interesting situation for SpringSource...
    I would say no.
  47. Re: what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    will JBoss Seam and/or Web Beans ever get mainstream adoption in the Java EE space??

    this sounds like an interesting situation for SpringSource...
    Seam already has mainstream adoption. -- Bill Burke JBoss, a division of Red Hat http://bill.burkecentral.com
  48. Re: what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    will JBoss Seam and/or Web Beans ever get mainstream adoption in the Java EE space??

    this sounds like an interesting situation for SpringSource...


    Seam already has mainstream adoption.

    --
    Bill Burke
    JBoss, a division of Red Hat
    http://bill.burkecentral.com
    Has anybody actually heard of any of the companies listed in the link below? Any Fortune 500 companies using Jboss + Seam in clustered production environments? http://seamframework.org/Documentation/SeamInProduction Also, I know that Redhat will not sell less than 32CPU prod support contract for JBoss EAP. SpringSource will for their stack (see below). What about prod support for all the smaller IT shops out there using JBoss + Seam stack? Smart production support policies is key to attracting and keeping long-term customers... "We understand that small businesses are active in the adoption of open source and that they make an important contribution to technological advances overall. Thus, we will be introducing a new product offering that is designed and priced expressly for use in small businesses and small SIs." http://blog.springsource.com/2008/10/07/a-question-of-balance-tuning-the-maintenance-policy/
  49. Re: what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    I know that Redhat will not sell less than 32CPU prod support contract for JBoss EAP.
    I think you misread the brochure? :-) http://www.jboss.com/pdf/jb_ent_middleware_04_07.pdf Less than 32 cpus means you are not eligible for a discount and don't get a couple of other things included by default. You'll also notice the development support (despite persistent rumours that we stopped selling that :-)
  50. Re: what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    Also, I know that Redhat will not sell less than 32CPU prod support contract for JBoss EAP. SpringSource will for their stack (see below). What about prod support for all the smaller IT shops out there using JBoss + Seam stack?

    Smart production support policies is key to attracting and keeping long-term customers...

    "We understand that small businesses are active in the adoption of open source and that they make an important contribution to technological advances overall. Thus, we will be introducing a new product offering that is designed and priced expressly for use in small businesses and small SIs."

    http://blog.springsource.com/2008/10/07/a-question-of-balance-tuning-the-maintenance-policy/
    Arbi, As Adrian pointed out, your statement on RHT offering is simply wrong. You are basically comparing an inaccurate fact on RHT against something that might eventually be done by SS. That's objective ;) If you want customer references, feel free to contact the Red Hat sales. I am sure they will be more than happy to give you that information. Back to the subject, congrats to Graeme, Guillaume and all the G2One team.
  51. EAP prod support[ Go to top ]

    Also, I know that Redhat will not sell less than 32CPU prod support contract for JBoss EAP. SpringSource will for their stack (see below). What about prod support for all the smaller IT shops out there using JBoss + Seam stack?

    Smart production support policies is key to attracting and keeping long-term customers...

    "We understand that small businesses are active in the adoption of open source and that they make an important contribution to technological advances overall. Thus, we will be introducing a new product offering that is designed and priced expressly for use in small businesses and small SIs."

    http://blog.springsource.com/2008/10/07/a-question-of-balance-tuning-the-maintenance-policy/


    Arbi,
    As Adrian pointed out, your statement on RHT offering is simply wrong.
    You are basically comparing an inaccurate fact on RHT against something that might eventually be done by SS. That's objective ;)
    If you want customer references, feel free to contact the Red Hat sales. I am sure they will be more than happy to give you that information.

    Back to the subject, congrats to Graeme, Guillaume and all the G2One team.
    Arbi, The 4-CPU subscription is intended for development environments. It doesn't have the same features of the production subscription that we've been discussing and is not something your organization would be satisfied with based upon the conversations we've had with Cox. Chris Sibold Enterprise Account Manager Red Hat, Inc.
  52. Re: what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    Has anybody actually heard of any of the companies listed in the link below? Any Fortune 500 companies using Jboss + Seam in clustered production environments?
    You're equating fortune 500 as some sort of a status quo for scalable production environments that need clustering? You're way off dude. Not until I left the bureaucracies of fortune 500 companies and started working for smaller startup types, did I realize what was missing. More creativity than one can only imagine in a large org. But I won't go into that at this point, it's a personal thing for me, rather I just want to point out that look at the architecture and the company before you discount it because it's not a fortune 500. Many small companies have scalability and performance requirements above and beyond of most fortune 500 companies. Ilya
  53. Re: what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    will JBoss Seam and/or Web Beans ever get mainstream adoption in the Java EE space??<</blockquote> Yes, definitely. Realistically we can expect a consolidation in the Java framework space for server side webframeworks. Old action oriented frameworks (Struts or the much better Spring MVC) play only a role as legacy frameworks now. And with newer generation frameworks getting more and more complex, only the frameworks that are actively maintained by developers who can work fulltime on the project have a bright future. Seam is one of them with maintainers employed by JBoss/Red Hat, but also an active community behing the project. A framework consolidation in the Java space is long overdue and also very healthy. It makes the Java world more competitive against competiting solutions such as ASP.NET.
  54. Re: what about JBoss Seam??[ Go to top ]

    Seam is one of them with maintainers employed by JBoss/Red Hat, but also an active community behing the project.
    correction: Seam is one of them with maintainers employed by JBoss/Red Hat, but also an active community behind the project.
  55. Grails Rocks![ Go to top ]

    This is great news. Grails is by far the best java/groovy framework out there right now. The only problem was whether to bet on a technology that might not gain enough traction. Now with the backing of Spring Source, I'm sure it will become the defacto standard for java web development since there is no other java technology nearly as productive. This comes a just the right time as well with so many java developers defecting over to ruby to avoid the ejb, jsf hell. I have been contemplating the jump myself but now it looks like java web development will be fun and interesting again.
  56. where's the hell?[ Go to top ]

    This is great news. Grails is by far the best java/groovy framework out there right now. The only problem was whether to bet on a technology that might not gain enough traction. Now with the backing of Spring Source, I'm sure it will become the defacto standard for java web development since there is no other java technology nearly as productive.

    This comes a just the right time as well with so many java developers defecting over to ruby to avoid the ejb, jsf hell. I have been contemplating the jump myself but now it looks like java web development will be fun and interesting again.
    I don't have any experience using Grails but... If you use JSF/Seam/EJB3, there is no hell (unlike the XML hell in Spring). There are two main (and mostly static) xml files in Seam projects: components.xml and pages.xml. The faces-config.xml, foo-ds.xml, persistence.xml, application.xml and web.xml are mostly static after initial config by seam-gen. The advantage of Seam is that Seam does not force any layering on the developer during design/implementation. There are no DTO, DAO, ActionForm, session facade and other superfluous design pattern hard requirements. So in many cases (most simple CRUD apps), it's as simple as this: 1) write a JSF with a form and command button that has an action binding via EL to a Seam component which can be a JavaBean or SFSB. 2) in the public action binding method, process your business logic and abstract your persistence operations to a DAO layer (if you want), otherwise use the EntityManager interface's API for CRUD operations and flushing of the persistence context directly in the SFSB or JavaBean, etc. No more useless JSF managed bean requirement and you get bijection (dynamic DI, not static DI like Spring) and conversation/BP context support for free! It's really not hellish at all if you think about it and use Seam for a few months like me :)
  57. sample Grails/Spring app?[ Go to top ]

    Is anybody aware of a sample Grails/Spring integration app that we can download? I see a groovytravel coming soon (similar to groovybooking from Seam)... this spring-travel-1.1.0.RELEASE app looks like a total ripoff of the Seam booking app (minus the workspace functionality - which indicates that Spring Beans do not have conversation support yet?).
  58. Seam 2.1.0.SP1 currently has 29 sample projects (couple of the latest ones are wicket to demo wicket presentation layer integration and seamspace to demo Seam Identity Management). I just downloaded spring-framework-2.5.6 and there are only 4 sample projects (not including springtravel). Big difference. The Seam sample projects are *very* valuable for learning Seam best practices, design patterns, annotations, API, etc. Hopefully SpringSource will add some sample apps for Grails integration...
  59. Re: where's the hell?[ Go to top ]

    I haven't used seam but a couple of points about grails; first, there are no Spring xml files in a generic grails app. In fact, there are really no xml files at all in a grails app, that a developer needs to touch. As far as dependency injection, as you need to do is declare the Service in your class, there's no configuration and no annotations. Regarding persistence, there is no hibernate configuration. Instead, grails creates the hibernate configuration automatically based on how you've define your domain objects. Also, you don't need DAOs. Grails dynamically adds persistence methods to your domain object so instead of saying EntityManager.persist(some object) you just say someObject.save(). Grails also can generate sql for you based on the name of methods. So you can call a method that doesn't actually exist such as Person.findByDate(Date Date) and grails will generate the query for you. I could go on and on but really if you invest about an hour, you can get productive in grails.
  60. Grails and conversation support[ Go to top ]

    I haven't used seam but a couple of points about grails; first, there are no Spring xml files in a generic grails app. In fact, there are really no xml files at all in a grails app, that a developer needs to touch.
    As far as dependency injection, as you need to do is declare the Service in your class, there's no configuration and no annotations. Regarding persistence, there is no hibernate configuration. Instead, grails creates the hibernate configuration automatically based on how you've define your domain objects.
    Also, you don't need DAOs. Grails dynamically adds persistence methods to your domain object so instead of saying EntityManager.persist(some object) you just say someObject.save(). Grails also can generate sql for you based on the name of methods. So you can call a method that doesn't actually exist such as Person.findByDate(Date Date) and grails will generate the query for you.
    I could go on and on but really if you invest about an hour, you can get productive in grails.
    how bout conversation context support in Grails???
  61. Re: Grails and conversation support[ Go to top ]

    how bout conversation context support in Grails???
    Its got it. Check it out http://grails.org/WebFlow
  62. No significant amount of XML required[ Go to top ]

    I haven't used seam but a couple of points about grails; first, there are no Spring xml files in a generic grails app. In fact, there are really no xml files at all in a grails app, that a developer needs to touch
    An important point: Since Spring 2.5, which has been available for over a year, there is no requirement for more than a small amount of XML to bootstrap annotation scanning--unless you choose and need to externalize configuration. It's not hard to bootstrap Spring with no XML at all if you are truly allergic to XML. The "Spring = XML hell" line is completely obsolete. Spring 2.5 has top notch annotation processing.
  63. Yes. Have tried Spring 2.5 annotation DI recently. It is at least as good as EJB 3.0 DI. No more XML (if you don't like "XML hell").
  64. Re: where's the hell?[ Go to top ]

    This is great news. Grails is by far the best java/groovy framework out there right now. The only problem was whether to bet on a technology that might not gain enough traction. Now with the backing of Spring Source, I'm sure it will become the defacto standard for java web development since there is no other java technology nearly as productive.

    This comes a just the right time as well with so many java developers defecting over to ruby to avoid the ejb, jsf hell. I have been contemplating the jump myself but now it looks like java web development will be fun and interesting again.


    I don't have any experience using Grails but...

    If you use JSF/Seam/EJB3, there is no hell (unlike the XML hell in Spring).
    No more XML worries. Have you looked at Spring Java Config ? Really cool project and it works with XML too, in case if you need to.
  • Re: where's the hell?[ Go to top ]

    "If you use JSF/Seam/EJB3, there is no hell... " I'm not going to defend Spring MVC (because it sucks too) but you've apparently never actually used a good framework before.
  • good framework[ Go to top ]

    "If you use JSF/Seam/EJB3, there is no hell... "

    I'm not going to defend Spring MVC (because it sucks too) but you've apparently never actually used a good framework before.
    plz elaborate... up until very recently, even .NET did not have MVC support...