Oracle is suing Google over java use in android.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20013546-265.html
For similar reasons, Sun had earlier sued Microsoft which resulted in creation of C#(and loss of Visual Studio IDE for java developers)
But since then, sun has open sourced java allowing for it to be forked.
http://www.zdnetasia.com/sun-lowers-barriers-to-open-source-java-62030975.htm
I think incompatible versions of Java is the last thing Java developers need. Nothing would hinder Java ecosystem evolution/innovation worse than having to write application servers, frameworks, plugins, IDEs, tools, dynamic languagues, etc that cannot rely on it's underlying platform.
Cheers,
Reza
OpenJDK allows people to use the code base according to the GPL, but it doesn't allow them to call the result "Java". That involves obtaining a license and (presumably) forking out cash, as well as passing compatibility tests. So nothing that calls itself "Java" should be incompatible with Sun's/Oracle's implementation.
Android does not (and never did) claim to be Java. It offers a certain degree of source compatibility, but that's about it. The lawsuit is not so much about the language as it is about patents Oracle owns on certain aspects of mobile technology.
I meant my post as a reply to the original post, not to Reza's response.
It should also be noted that Microsoft did license Java from Sun, and had to conform to the licensing agreement, which they did not. Google did not license anything, so the lawsuits aren't really comparable.
Personally, I don't think it matters if Google engineers discovered the cure for cancer using someone else's patents. We live in a society of laws for a good reason after all. If someone bothered to patent something and at the end of the day do not wish to give away the results of their hard work, investment or moment of brilliance, no one has a right to steal it from them (but I suppose you could always ask nicely if and see what happens). If that's what Google knowingly did I think they should own up and pay up, especially since they aren't exactly a mom-and-pop operation either. If they didn't do that, this is a monumental waste of time for both Oracle and Google and a needless damper on mobile innovation (as long as Google, Apache, etc don't start behaving as though they have a compatible JVM if they really don't).
Just my 2 cents...
Cheers,
Reza
Purpose?
To make Google pay for their usage of (Open)JDK or to force Google avoid using JDK? In the latter case we might see the emergence of yet another Java like language - G# or Gava (pronounced Java (in the US and English speaking countries) or 'Yava' (Europe))!!!
That is actually the point of the lawsuit. Google decided to avoid using Sun's open source work and open source license because they excluded commercial mobile solutions from that license.
This situation I think is the top of iceberg, right now Java is starting to fall apart and some measures were needed to be taken. Even a lawsuit is good but still I have my doubts about Oracle interests in this and also Google reaction should be taken into consideration before jumping into any conclusions
Still I don't think that this will be the boost that Java is in a desperate need right now. For some Java is synonymous with mobile apps and right now this market is still in her childhood, but the future is applications for portable devices and I don't think Oracle will let this oportunity to slip from their toes so they make a move.
On the other hand Google maybe thought that Java is open source and they don't need to give a report to anybody so they did what anyone who use open source technology for their apps.
So we have Oracle that is the "father" of Java and Google who wants a little piece of it, how will they get along it's still a mistery for many of us. But if Oracle wins this trial than everyone who use java will be good for giving some money to Oracle for using java......
I guess I'll wait to form my real opinion after more facts come out, but quite frankly I don't buy the "Google is sweetness and light" and "Oracle is evil" sentiment so easily. I guess it's just too simplistic for me...
With Google's engineering and financial resources they could have easily bought a Java license, wrote a fully compatible JVM and properly ran the TCK againsts it instead of pulling the frivoluos, overly political Adriod stunt. As an upshot, the Java community would have had another viable JVM option in addition to JRockit, HotSpot, OpenJDK, etc.
At this point, I see this as nothing but cynical corporate tactics to try and control Java between two equally greedy corporations. Honestly, I am even a little impressed at Oracle's gumption to make sure Java does not get fragmented. It's the kind of take-no-prisoners spunk Sun should have had and never quite did...
Cheers,
Reza
This could have been avoided if they just bought Sun last year before Oracle, its not like they are short of money and so on. Then again Android may not be called "java" but its presented as "java" or is that "java-like".. does that mean Android is counterfiet Java the language or java the platform ?
For all practical purposes, Android does look and feel to me like a "counterfeit" Java platform. This is exactly why I agree with the article writer that this is not all that different from Sun rightfully suing Microsoft.
The only difference here is that Google has more fanboys in the Java community than Microsoft does that I'm sure will cry bloody murder without really considering what's what from a rational engineering standpoint. That's unfortunate for Oracle, especially if their objection has legal merit (which looks to be the case).
As an aside, I too was hoping Google would make a serious bid for Sun but doesn't seem like they even considered that possibility and I'm not sure why...
Cheers,
Reza
In a year or two, people will be saying not buying Sun was G biggest blunder and dumbest move by a longshot.
Given Sam Pullara's comments above, what do you suggest Google should have done? I guess they could have used Objective C. Do you think that would have been better?
Adam,
If you are asking my personal opinion, I am frankly not interested in looking back or trying to figure out what really went wrong here.
What I would like to see is both companies backing down and negotiating on a technology that is portable and usable without opening up a pandora's box in terms of future JVM fragmentation. If that is JavaFX, Java ME "fixed", a new open sourced, licensed JDK on Andriod, or a new Java mobile platform altogether frankly I really don't think it matters that much. Things in the mobile market are still early enough to get it right instead of going down the wrong road now. The switch from Sun to Oracle is the right time to make radical changes happen.
I think that is what the Java commuity should be pushing both companies to do instead of starting yet another bitter war over religiuos issues like open source, intellectual property and so on. Both companies are smart enough to make that happen if they set ego aside for a moment and think about what is really right for seven million and counting Java developers. Personally, I'll ry to do whatever I can to help make that happen...
If the religous wars are important to someone they should find another venue besides Java to fight them. After years of petty bickering, Java is weak enough as it is...
Hope it helps,
Reza
This has to be one of the stupidest things Oracle could possibly do. Their first real action with Java is to start suing. What's even worse is that this is the same bunch of laywers that were behind the SCO mess and suing Linux users and whatnot.
This has NOTHING to do with what is good for Java, this is all about making money for the lawyers.
Oracle has just destroyed their credibility with developers. For a long time everyone thought M$ was going to sue the Mono folks which never happened. Ballmer is probably laughing his ass of about now.
From James Gosling:
"During the integration meetings between Sun and Oracle where we were being grilled about the patent situation between Sun and Google, we could see the Oracle lawyer's eyes sparkle."
Good job Oracle.
Oracle is also closing up OpenSolaris, so that's another sign of things to come - especially if we believe Larry when he says that Java is the most valuable asset of the Sun acquisition.
How else is Oracle to monetize Java? What changes to the license are going to come about? Is Oracle going to try to take advantage of a perceived lock-in to Java in the enterprise. Oracle's past actions should give some insight.
In any case, Oracle has already lost any good-wiill from a wait-n-see approach from the developer community. Oracle is cutting off its nose to spite its face. Java's strength has always been the diversity in its ecosystem (as compared to dotnet). I think we can expect to see a lot less innovation coming from the Java community.
Of course its about money. The only reason companies sue other companies over patents etc is because of a percieved or real attack on their business. Its no wonder that most popular outcome always means the core business can continue holding to this asset so they can continue to milk it. I have never heard of someone taking a patent and never using that advantage in some form for a business advantage so they can earn some money. Business is never about right or morality its always about money.
FYI, here is another quote from Gosling about Adroid that probably better represents where he his on this issue:
“One of the reasons that we charge license fees is because we've got organizations of people that do compatibility testing and actual negotiating amongst the different handset makers so that things like GPS APIs look the same. And what's going on in the Android world is there's kind of no adult in charge. And all these handset manufacturers are doing whatever they damn well please. Which means that it's just going to be randomness. It could be let a thousand flowers bloom, but it also could be a dog's breakfast. And I guess having been around the track a few times, it feels like it's going to be more of a dog's breakfast.”
Sounds about right to me...
Cheers,
Reza
This is the end of the Java platform. I'm serious.
Oracle has started their Java development not from cool new features (JDK7 - where are you?) but from suing a company which helps to advance Java.
And don't get me started on Java 'falling apart'. As it happened, Google has done NOTHING like Microsoft. They have created an implementation of Java without any language enhancements and with the core library pretty much the same as in Sun JDK (duh, they used Apache Harmony for that).
What could Google gain from certifying their implementation? Answer: nothing. Google certainly don't need SWING or J2ME.
And Gosling, as usual, doesn't understand anything.
One of the reasons that we charge license fees is because we've got organizations of people that do compatibility testing and actual negotiating amongst the different handset makers so that things like GPS APIs look the same. And what's going on in the Android world is there's kind of no adult in charge. And all these handset manufacturers are doing whatever they damn well please. Which means that it's just going to be randomness. It could be let a thousand flowers bloom, but it also could be a dog's breakfast. And I guess having been around the track a few times, it feels like it's going to be more of a dog's breakfast.
He probably has never even opened Android development documentation. Because _all_ Android phones basically have the same core API, they differ mostly only in installed applications and UI themes.
And assuming that Google is somehow not capable of 'being adult' (steering development of Android) is monumentally stupid considering all the Sun's blunders in Java leadership (i.e. the lack of thereof).
The way I see it, this isn't about what Google has to gain by implementing a JDK. It is about Google thinking it is too good/has too many sheepish followers to play by the same rules pretty much everyone else is bound by and endangering the well-being of Adroid developers by playing games with Java licensing when it suits them.
I'm glad Oracle called them on it...
Cheers,
Reza
The way I see it, this isn't about what Google has to gain by implementing a JDK. It is about Google thinking it is too good/has too many sheepish followers to play by the same rules pretty much everyone else is bound by and endangering the well-being of Adroid developers by playing games with Java licensing when it suits them.
Which rules? They carefully do not call their implementation 'Java'. Which was always OK with Sun. GNU has been producing their own independent Java implementation (GCJ) since forever without any problems, for example.
It was always possible to independently implement ANY computer language (that's why OpenOffice has VisualBasic implementation, for example). Requiring implementations to pass TCK has always been a _trademark_ issue. Which is quite reasonable, IMO.
Attacking independent developers using patents is NOT reasonable by any standard.
Alex,
In the simplest terms, Google looks like they are violating well-established patent laws for their own financial gain. Period.
In more nebulous and insidious ways, they are also creating a danger of fragmenting what it means to be a JVM in the longer term. In other words, if Oracle does not do what it is doing right now, there will be nothing stopping other people copying the OpenJDK code base and calling it "xVM" that looks an awful lot like Java, scalps Java developers and can eventually lead to serious fragmentation down the line if one of these "xVM"s actually gets serious traction vs. compatible ones. That's what makes this such a dangerous slippery slope. To use a colloqualism - "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck" :-).
Now, I'm not saying Oracle's motives are that altruistic. We will see what happens but I'll be dissapointed if Oracle is just happy to get some IP related revenenue and let this slide otherwise.
I really don't think either OpenJDK or GCJ are in any danger from Oracle. OpenJDK passes the TCK and I believe GCJ has an explicit, honest-to-goodness goal to remain TCK compatible: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.0.4/gcj_4.html.
It has always been possible to independently implement any computer language, except for Java - which requires strict compliance from the implementation. The TCK is much more than just a matter of trademark for Java. It is really the only mechanism to date to ensure compatibility and avoid JVM fragmentation (and I really hope one day someone can invent a better mechanism that does not require such careful centralized controls to be in place).
Cheers,
Reza
In the simplest terms, Google looks like they are violating well-established patent laws for their own financial gain. Period.
So does EVERY F#$*ING SOFTWARE COMPANY in the world. Period.
Alex,
If your objection is with software patents in general, frankly that's a matter for the U.S. Supreme Court to decide. I doubt a challenge to patent laws would get much traction since property laws are part of the very cornerstone of American entrepreneurial, civic and political life. Having lived in places of the world where property laws matter very little, personally I am a strong supporter of property laws in all its forms...
Kindest regards,
Reza
If Android is not java, then why does it source have and use classes with "java.lang" etc in them. By doing so they are by definition are derivative. Its like saying Concrete which extends java.lang.Object is not an Object when under the hood its inherits all of its method, constructor and its limitations. Even if ConcreteSub overwrites all methods its still got notify and wait there.
If Android is not java, then why does it source have and use classes with "java.lang" etc in them. By doing so they are by definition are derivative. Its like saying Concrete which extends java.lang.Object is not an Object when under the hood its inherits all of its method, constructor and its limitations. Even if ConcreteSub overwrites all methods its still got notify and wait there.
So? Java uses keywords 'class', 'int', 'float' so it's clearly a derivative of C. And thus it must conform to ISO/IEC 9899:1999 .
Dalvik is clearly a derivative of Java. But as long as they don't brand it as 'Java', Oracle has exactly zero rights to stop Google.
Android is not java because they share a common syntax. Its java because at its (Android's) core there are lots of classes called java.*.this and java.*.that that by definition copy the "api" defined by Sun. I always thought it was bad form that G gave nothing back to Sun after all the goodness that SUn has given to them and everyone else. Call it social responsibility. The only reason Android is "free" is because G is hoping to get $ from online advertisement. No java via harmony, no platform for smartphones, no android...G would have to start from scratch would have added a few more years for Android hit the big time. This would mean less marketshare. Windows won not becquse it was the best but because Microsoft and DOS were first. First matters more than technical excellence in many cases.
someone finish this saying... it isn't money that's evil.... but... ?
it isn't money that's evil...but....it is people's greed.
Bless you, Viswa.
No good can come of this lawsuit - however you slice it. I agree with all the statements made by all the posters - regardless of whether they argued in favor of Oracle or Google - each viewpoint is no more or less wrong.
Whether Oracle or Google "comes out on top" of this one - I personally feel all of the developers as well as end-users of Android as well as Java in its various applications as losing out.
Instead of creating JDK7, improving Java and bolstering Android - they're going at each others' throats like a bunch of horny teenagers in a pissing contest.
I hope both Oracle and Google have the wherewithal to come to some agreement that is a win-win for both companies as well as the people. Anything short of this is a sell-out and as someone eloquently pointed out - the end of Java and possibly Android.
I believe I speak for all when I say no one wants to see the fallout from a prolongued, unresolved lawsuit between two large corporations....
Martin,
Amen, brother :-). I do hope they both get this settled and over with quick and do what really serves our interests long and short term best...
I don't buy the Google open source flag waving bit for a minute. I would have bought it if they didn't have tons of patents themselves on search technology and would make their search algorithms open source only when hell freezes over...
I refuse to be a pawn for either of them. Let them sort out the mess they made in court just like everyone else...
Cheers,
Reza
Bless you, Reza.
There's apsolutely nothing wrong with operating from a context of greed. This approach definitely brings more of what Larry's already got:
1) money (we want a piece of the Android pie!)
2) winning (we'll whip GOOG's ass in court!)
3) getting to be right a lot (we're smart enough to prove they're wrong about Java/Dalvik/whatever IP)
4) "world domination" (All your base are belong to us!)
5) justifying his actions (Of course they (GOOG or whomever) deserve it!)
or the inverse:
1) getting to be wrong (boohoo, we were wrong about Google, we're the 'victim'! Woe is me! This, BTW, restarts the vicious cycle, e.g. 'we need to be right again, we'll be proven right in the future')
2) losing (boohoo, we lost the suit, we'll have to find another way to "win" against GOOG/whomever, we're "victims")
3) invalidate others (see, see! Google was "greedy" or "wrong" or "unfair" or <pick your favorite adjective>)
4) avoiding domination (screw Google! We won't EVER talk to you again (that is, if we lose in court))
What I _promise_ you operating from a context of greed won't bring him (or Oracle) is love, affinity, vitality, well being & self-expression in the sense that one can talk about things without engaging in speech that creates self-rigtheousness, 'winning', domination, rationalizing one's self, invalidating others, etc. I don't mean 'self-expression' as saying whatever comes to mind - e.g. all the nasty and ugly stuff we think about - that ain't self-expression, that's vomitting.
Above all, the steepest cost will be - love & acceptance of others & self.
Do I think Larry/Oracle's beyond redemption? As much as I was when I was engaging in all of the above in my own life without going into the gory details that I will spare you. Answer: no, he's not.
Can Larry redeem himself? Certainly. Except he can't buy his way into heaven by giving 95% of his wealth to charity. The IRS (e.g. God) would've taken care of at least 40-50% anyway (or more) even if he didn't.
There's another way for Larry/Oracle to go the way of eternity. And that way will not be entertained by any person unless he or she reaches a spiritual bottom, a spiritual wasteland, and admits this - along with all the our-of-integrity behavior (e.g. sins) to God, themselves and another human being.
I've really said nothing new here... someone said all this about 2000 years ago... Is Oracle going to be around 2 millenia from now? I don't know. But I do know what will stick around until the end of time... The word.
Martin,
Hmm...perhaps there is more of a religous context here that I am not seeing not being very religious myself :-). I do agree with you though that Oracle does need to keep in mind how its actions affects the community at large perhaps more than it has in the past. That being said, I do think that what they are doing does seem to be in keeping with Java's long term strengths in maintaining compatibility and consistency. I also agree with you that there are no clear good guys/bad guys here - as there often is not in real life. I very much doubt this is something Oracle is happy about doing. It obviously is going to create a lot of bad blood, for example.
Cheers,
Reza
Someone saw it coming...
why does android need to be compatible with java?
It's great that google decided to go with java syntax instead of c# or python.
JavaME sucks that is why companies are lining up with android.
Time,
I honestly think that this is a fairly weak argument. There is no good reason Google could not have made the Andriod SDK Java ME compatible and still provide necessary usability improvements. After all, this is exactly what the Smart phone clear market leader RIM does with the BlackBerry SDK. Instead, their hubris led them to take a dangerous shortcut and now frankly they only have themselves to blame for the current situation...
Hope it helps,
Reza
I will agree with Oracle cause is their product/rights/business/owner and all if Java was a new platform and product with years coming of profit but Java is a legacy platform with a lot of history and wide open and I think is a huge mistake what Oracle is trying to do now with Java the platform, ecosystem and community, I think is to late. Maybe Google is trying to cash also with Android but thanks to Android Java was becoming relevant again but with this Oracle move is pushing Java to the bottom, even the .net guys are laughing about all this mess right now. About Android I dont care about it, tomorrow I get Nokia Meego and I can develop for it in C++ or Python but the problem here is Java it what it gets the more hurt with this bad move. As someone said since Gosling resigned from Oracle I was smelling the (new Cobol)Java is aproching and we will watch the dead of Java little by little. This is very sad to see lots of efforts and jobs/projects from the Open Source and Java people put into this platform in years and in one day fell down all this. In early 2000's I was loosing interest on Java cause didnt become an ISO standard but Sun begin to speak about OpenSourcing it and let the world drive the future of Java as with Linux and that gain me interested again with Java but right now I fear, doubt and Im uncertain thanks to Oracle about the future of Java. I dont want to live again this and I would prefer to use true open standard or open source languages as C++ or Python that nobody owns and I can work without worry about a company driven your platform of choice to the dead. Thats why also I quited in the earlies 2000's Microsoft products, Look how Visual Basic people lived after that. I hope All this is just a bad dream and Java still healthy and we can continue to work on it but if this the true life and Oracle decide to push more deep this bullshit, Im done with Java and I will have to give to Java the kiss of good bye.
In the other side Dalvik is based on Java SE, Android is an OS for PC, netbook, Laptop or smartphone but related to Java everything is based on OpenJDK so Java is GPL with the classpath exception, Why Google needs a license with Oracle?, Cause dalvik is based on Harmony? but I think Dalvik already is using some OpenJDK stuff so it complains to the GPL plus dalvik is open source you can get a copy of the source.
Also I was reading somewhere that Oracle patents Google is infringing cant be applied anymore so it means all this thing is bullshit and Oracle did an auto FUD to their own platform as some people said they shoot their self in the foot. This is dumbest thing Oracle ever did or any company, Even Microsoft is not that stupid, Oracle does not have a case and Java is FREE is GPLed.
Oracle does not have the capacity to control Java and Java the ecosystem and also they suck big time driving opensource. It was a joke Oracle was at the last Linux show they dont know the spirit of opensource, they just know to make money but not with innovation they just buy other companies and cash cow everything. Like a Virus.
But Anyway this is not only with Java the language, If Java the language is the problem I will change to Scala but this also affects the JVM level, Oracle does not give a damn even with the JVM thats my perseption so also Scala folks should be worry. If Scala could run full in .Net clr I will move to Scala maybe at this stage. the problem here is We see Oracle does not like OSS and the Java/JVM community, the JVM including Java it is 100% proprietary of Oracle so the alternative was that Java/JVM ware Open but now I doubt it so are in the same position as .Net/CLR, what you will choose now? are the same thing both proprietary but C#.Net have better features and innovation than Java/JVM!. Me Im tired of proprietary platforms and proprietary languages,After all this disappointed journey I now prefer open languages or ISO's as C++, Google Go, PHP, Python, Ruby, Perl. FreePascal so on.
This are my thoughts as programmer and Java user but this is getting so confuse, Its Really Java Free and Open or is another trap and proprietary bullshit again?. Good luck to all Java folks I hope this lawsuit does not destroy Java and Java the ecosytem.
Regards.
Otengi,
With all due respect, I know a lot of people are saying these similar things but I just don't see the logical connection...
* Adroid is a pretty small part of even the smart phone market and is nothing compared to the size of enterprise Java. I venture to say even the worst outcome of the lawsuit will effect Java in practical terms very little.
* The lawsuit has nothing to do with open source other than the fact that Google tried to hijack an open source JVM for purposes it was never intended for. In fact, I hope the OpenJDK folks express their opinion on this soon. It's one thing to support open source, it's another to let another big company walk all over you and subvert what it means to be a JVM in the process. It's just Google that's gone that far and they should pay the price the way I see it so no-one else thinks they can pull these stunts.
* Any IP that pertains to the JVM pertains to JVM makers. That's it. It can't be applied to any code written on top of a compatible, properly licensed JVM and you can't make them pay as long as they are using a fully compatible, licesnsed JVM that is free - which OpenJDK and HotSpot are. Last I checked, HotSpot is to remain free for the foreseeable future. If Oracle wants money from the JVM, it has JRockit for that which is an awesome JVM for server-side applications...
So all this "Java is Dead", "Open Source Java is Dead" seems like more of the typical "the end is nigh" nonsense to me that there is far too much of in the Java world (and it mostly comes from groups of people that compete with and don't mean Java well in the first place but that's another story).
Cheers,
Reza
Hello Reza nice to see you again at tss, I was thinking all night about this isue but this is my last opinion about this problem.
In the real life the most what matters is $$$ so Oracle have to get back what they invest on Sun and Java even Java community disappear Oracle needs their money back and they could use Java just for inhouse and their customers as with abap and SAP. Also future versions of Java Oracle can relicensing to proprietary license so that will be really bad and maybe some people will want to fork OpenJDK 6. So will be OpenJDK6 forks everywhere. Me I think this is a vicious circle already, Java is not an "open standard" is a proprietary platform of Oracle and they can do what ever they like with it of course.
Reagrds.
Otengi,
Very good to see you here again as well. I honestly hope you feel better about this, I can't say I'm completely unconcerned either but maybe not that negatively...
Admittedly though, Oracle is helping little by staying so painfully silent. I do hope that they understand that they too will need to change their outreach policies a little now that they have inherited a large and diverse community from Sun that is vital to the long-term health of one of their most important assets. Then again, it is pretty early and maybe they will do exactly that shortly...
Kindest regards,
Reza
Time,
I honestly think that this is a fairly weak argument. There is no good reason Google could not have made the Andriod SDK Java ME compatible and still provide necessary usability improvements. After all, this is exactly what the Smart phone clear market leader RIM does with the BlackBerry SDK. Instead, their hubris led them to take a dangerous shortcut and now frankly they only have themselves to blame for the current situation...
Hope it helps,
Reza
I've never seen anyone smoke this much crack in my life. Wow. Androud absolutely EMBARRASSED the living F&CK out of Blackberry / JavaME / JavaFX, Sun and all in the performance, programmibility, ease of use, styling, LACK OF SWING / AWT, and usability, multitouch. Android is dominating the market and making extremely successful use of multiple hardware vendors. Why the heck would you even attempt to argue that it is good for Sun / Oracle to JavaME certify hardware when Google / Androd has surpassed Sun in every technical software / hardware challenge in less than 1 year? W....T....F...........
It is obvious Reza is/was/will be on Oracle's payroll.
Chief,
I am not, never was and will never likely will ever opt to be on Oracle's payroll. Similarly, working for Google is not something I would ever opt for either. Both are simply too large of corporations for me to consider.
Hope it helps,
Reza
Well ok then, my apologies, but point of view you are representing here is contrary to common sense hence it makes one wonder if there is something behind it.
Chief,
I can assure you the only thing behind it is what I believe to be the corect perspective in this case, perhaps with a healthy dose of knowing some of the history as well as first hand experience with both Google, Oracle and Sun employees (as well as employees of IBM, RedHat, SpringSource etc).
Isn't it almost always the case that things aren't what they seem at first glance? If things do not make common sense I suggest (re)looking at both sides of the argument and rationally think about the long and short term consequences. Now, I am not saying you must agree with me or you must be stupid. In reality, this issue is too comlex for that and anyone thinking that is probably jumping to conclusions too quickly.
Cheers,
Reza
Dillon,
I think you are missing the point. What I am suggesting is that Google could have brought all these good improvements to a much broader audience long term by building on top of JavaFX or Java ME and standardizing some of those changes eventually instead of the improvements simply being limited to the Andriod platform. If you look at the enterprise space, this is what RedHat/Gavin King have done with Seam for example.
Hope it helps,
Reza
Dillon,
I think you are missing the point. What I am suggesting is that Google could have brought all these good improvements to a much broader audience long term by building on top of JavaFX or Java ME and standardizing some of those changes eventually instead of the improvements simply being limited to the Andriod platform. If you look at the enterprise space, this is what RedHat/Gavin King have done with Seam for example.
Hope it helps,
Reza
Good sir, that is the exact point. Sun didn’t let anyone else improve Java. The bureaucratic mess of Sun / Java politics, especially over JavaME is that of complete Sun control and it strongly discourages innovation and progress. The denial of a JCK to Apache Harmony, the stagnation of Java under Sun have contributed to an “open source but not” status that has kept Java under lock and key. Android's rapid success in improving and extending Java is a visceral testament to how much Java has suffered under Sun. Now Oracle is taking it to the next level. And it’s only about cash, there isn’t an iota if interest in keeping Java from fragment. Java needs to fragment itself free of corporations to live.
I am sure there is a lot behind this, but could it be an acceptable outcome would be Android phones becomes platforms for JavaFX applications? They have not gotten very far in pushing this technology, but yet have not dropped it. Perhaps this would be a good compromise, where as Java developers we get a better UI platform than the Android XML? Plus it is good competitor to Flash as well as giving the new Java technology a boost.
Tony,
I too, think this would be great :-).
Cheers,
Reza
I am sure there is a lot behind this, but could it be an acceptable outcome would be Android phones becomes platforms for JavaFX applications? They have not gotten very far in pushing this technology, but yet have not dropped it. Perhaps this would be a good compromise, where as Java developers we get a better UI platform than the Android XML? Plus it is good competitor to Flash as well as giving the new Java technology a boost.
Replace a hot platform that uses the Java language with a dead platform that does not use the java language? BAD idea.
Then again, maybe Android users would love getting security prompts when they run a bouncing ball demo like on the official javafx site.
Michael,
There are a lot of positives to Google adopting and helping improve JavaFX. The most important one is that Java developers would be able to write applications that don't just run on Adroid, but any other platform that JavaFX supports, quite possibly including BlackBerry and the invitable commodity offerings from companies like LG and Samsung that Android, iPhone, BlackBerry, etc I am sure will need to compete with soon enough...
Just trying to keep a broader/more optimistic/neutral perspective here...
Cheers,
Reza
I said my last opinion but this one is my 2c.
The true is Oracle and Larry give a sh*t about Java and the community, Larry Ellison is a brilliant business man and he is only interested in what he knows to do is MONEY, Show me the Money that his mantra.
Google's implementation is definitely not "write once, run anywhere". Whatever it is, it's not Java.
Last comment in here sorry Im pisssed,
Accept that Open Standard or what we thought Open Source Java is dead in the hands of Oracle.
We love Java the language and it could be great to port it to Parrot or LLVM thats a good idea but as someone told me also who will port all the class libraries are huge.
I think for OSS, FOSS, and Java people disappointed about this move our only choices now are native development with C++ and Scripting languages as Python, Ruby and PHP.
Right now we need really the next big thing but we need something in the form of REAL open standard and open source not owned by a company with economic interests.
Mono have the same problem as Java is not 100% open, anytime M$ can go after Mono, .Net is Microsoft so forget it.
But humans always know to get out of trouble, we will get our open standard platform and programming language of choice out of this huge mess of dinosaurs of the past as Sun, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, IBM and Apple did many years.
From reading many of these posts it seems like some Java devs haven't kept up with anything. It seems like some don't know that Java is open source so there nothing really that Google could steal. It also seems that some devs don't realize that there are other VM based languages out there that don't run on the JVM. It seems that some people feel that Google should not be able to write their own VM that understands the Java language simlar to the way devs have brought Ruby and Python to the JVM.
But even that is short of what Google actually did. They developed their own VM and bytecode. They simply convert Java bytecode to Dalvik bytecode. So they aren't even using Java technology. The only reason Java even comes into this is because its the syntax they chose to have developers use. To make that syntax work they used the Apache Harmony libraries. They could have used any other language and compiled right to Dalvik bytecode. They chose Java because it would be familiar to many and theres already good tooling for it. All the talk of them wanting to get around licensing may very well be ridiculous and actually insulting to the minds at Google as if they could not develop their own technology.
I also find it amazing how some Java devs are quick to downplay Androids API's when no one is flocking to JavaME. Obviously they must have done something right. Maybe they looked at JavaME and could not get what they needed out of it so the moved on and developed their own platform. It should make you wonder why its always Java that has to be concerned about becoming fragmented. Maybe it isn't up to par where it needs to be and moves too slow.
Phillip,
Thanks for your comments. Here is an opinion from java.net that differs from yours on why Java and Android are effectively equivalent: http://www.dzone.com/links/r/android_java.html
Cheers,
Reza
Just my two cents, saying that the difference between a register based machine and a stack based machine is just a matter of performance is (yes, I got a talent for understatement) too far fetched.
Citation not literal, I just go by my own leaky memory: "the important thing is the typesystem and that is the same."
It simply negates the work done in fields like CPU architectures in the last 30+ years and sounds like saying that the difference between the steam engine and todays 16 valves is just performance: hell, they are both based on thermodynamics, don't they? So they differ merely in therms of performance....
But I think the whole point is in the statement "I use the term equal meaning equivalent".
Equivalent needs further specification is, in itself, a very subtle term. I'm equivalent to my wife if we speek of chess playing, but I suppose none of you will have problems in recognizing that this equivalence is quite different from equality :-)
So, the fact that dalvik provides the same threading model does not mean anything. Same APIs cannot lead to say "your work is just a ripoff", otherwise every car implements the same APIs, so they are all ripoffs of the Ford T model, don't they?
Look at the CPU field, P5s run the same code 8086 does. Does this mean that Intel has spent the last 20 years or so ripping itself off? I dare to dissent.
Best regards
Thanks for your comments. Here is an opinion from java.net that differs from yours on why Java and Android are effectively equivalent: http://www.dzone.com/links/r/android_java.html
The comparison with GIF and PNG formats fits very well. While GIF and PNG served the same purpose, the first one required a license (because it uses LZW algorithm, which patent belongs to Unisys), so many people used the second one. Even they were "equivalent", there were no legal problems there.
There never was any innovation in the direction for Java at the top of Sun. As a member of the SDAC (Sun developer advisory council), I had many opportunities to speak directly with top management, Gosling (who was not happy about many of the issues that we raised). All they cared about was server nonsense and how they were going to rule the world.
They tried to jump into the mobile device market. They tried to do lots of things, but never had the right people at the top.
Oracle is no better focused, and they have sunk the ship on small device computing.
Apple has shown how to innovate in ways that the buying public actually values. They understand that charging 10,000 users $1,000 each makes money, but if you charge 10,000,000 users, $1 each, you make the same amount of money and create a larger market. This is something Sun just could not grasp. They drew the pictures of the pyramid of developers with 10,000,000 at the bottom and 10,000 at the top, but couldn't ever figure out that the portable device market was how you get to the bottom 10,000,000.
Android is the final chance to be successful at finally putting together portable device Java that might actually be useful. The Cell phone producers never had any idea of how to make a computing device with a phone. They just wanted to take a phone, and put some useless but "flashy" computing based bling on it.
Most likely Google will settle on the technical patents that can't be refuted. But I would imagine that they would also move the programming language base to Scala or some other "to-jvm" language, and that will pretty much be the last nail in the coffin of Java anywhere other than server side.
I'd like to have had a mic in the room with Steve Job's when he read this...
Apple is probably totally excited by the fact that Android is now on hold.
It is nice to hear from someone who was close to the nucleus!
Ironic that Java which was born as a language platform that has proven ideal for developing secure, distributed, network-based end-user applications in environments ranging from network-embedded devices to the World-Wide Web and the desktop. (from the Original paper) drifted to Enterprise and elsewhere, while other languages have occupied embedded devices and JavaScript dominated the client side scripting on the WWW! Instead of leading the world, Java was playing a catch-up game - drifting to EJB and Javaworld mimicking asp(x) and C# at various occasions... Database access came as an after-thought, resulting in yet another mimicry called ODBC and even worse ORM products!
Please read as resulting in yet another mimicry called JDBC and even worse ORM products!
