Chris Hardin posted that it's a lot more important to hire people who can program than it is to hire people who know a framework.

He says the talented candidate can adapt and move with the technology; it does not matter if they don't know struts 2, in his example, saying that the candidate can adapt and move with the technology.

I guess he's saying that in the end its all about reading and writing data, converting formats as you go. If you think about it from that perspective, the frameworks and libraries just help that to happen; that keeps Spring in perspective and helps you look at a library from a "how does this help me" standpoint.

You may not learn all the library's knobby bits that way, but so what? I don't need to know more than 2% of Spring to get the most use out of it; 98% of it's wasted crap. In fact, the biggest benefit to Spring is that it helps you think in terms of testable resources instead of frameworks; once you understand that, Spring isn't that valuable and Guice is just as good. i guess the Spring people won't tell you that.

Here is a little secret that developers have known for years and non-technical people have yet to figure out. It doesn't matter what language a developer knows, they are all similar. A talented developer has an interpreter and compiler in his head and thinks in pseudo-code anyway. Applying that to a language is just a matter of figuring out the syntax...and that is the easy part.

Applying that to a language is just a matter of figuring out the syntax...and that is the easy part.

It's not that simple, I think. For example (this example is not very good, but ... well it's just an example :) ), I need to find the position of string A inside a string B. The pseudo-code is ok I'll go from the beginning of the string B until I meet the first character of the string A ... If I don't know the language well enough (i.e. I don't know of the existence of the indexOf method in that language), I might tempt to do that.

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Couldn't agree more. But Alas we have created a generation of over hyped programmers who know nothing but some superficial knowledge of frameworks that obsolete before their next job. So ironic but they even have no time to be an expert of a single framework becuase they have to learn a new one so they can go and get the new job:-)

RJ.

Well you lost me at asserting that "98% of [Spring] is wasted crap."  You began with an intelligent discussion but then devolved into biased ranting.

Frameworks are an inevitability.  They take care of redundancies and monotony.  For the most part they are tried-and-tested libraries of code that in most cases can make our developer lives easier.  I for one am thankful for the Java Collections Framework as well as for the Spring Framework's inversion of control, ansync, AOP, messaging and database features.

I don't understand the author's disdain for frameworks but I have seen it before in developers who are steeped in hubris, threatened that frameworks challenge the developer's home-grown solutions.

If a developer understands frameworks, it is implied that the developer also understands the programming language the framework was built upon.  Just because a developer is better at efficiently implementing Collections than he/she is at bit-shifting doesn't make that developer a liability.  Nor is a developer a greater asset who is skilled in the art of multithreading but deficient in the skillful use of his employer's adopted development framework.

Abandon your hubris and misplaced crusade against frameworks and admit that the true test for any good developer is whether or not that developer can use the right tool for the job.

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the true test for any good developer is whether or not that developer can use the right tool for the job.

 

well said.  A good developer should also be able to adapt quickly to new technology.

I agree with you fredrick

Excellent points there Richard. The thing is Java has trivialized programming which means there are very few "real programmers" out there, which is why testing people with their knowledge of frameworks is in vogue otherwise there won't be a differentiator!!

Excellent points there Richard. The thing is Java has trivialized programming which means there are very few "real programmers" out there, which is why testing people with their knowledge of frameworks is in vogue otherwise there won't be a differentiator!!

What do you mean, "Java has trivialized programming"? I think "real programmers" are characterized by their problem-solving skills and not by their knowledge of frameworks. It's just that the knowledge of frameworks is easier to test for. 

things which need to be thought through can be done recklessly. For eg.... I saw thic code where an arraylist was inside a Hashmap which was inside another list or set...eventually at some point causing "out of memory" even thinking about implementing this in C or C++ wouldn't be trivial!!!Java still is the best...currently for others reasons than the skill-level it demands!

What really maters is knowing the principles of programming or software constructing. But more than 99% times people are valued by their knowledge on particular programming language, frameworks, or even worse knowledge about  bugs in, undocumented/badly documented features of, and work-arounds for the frameworks. Ironically, because 99% programmers are thinking/working in this way, such knowledge becomes, after all, really critical because almost all existing frameworks are ill-concepted, with cubersome APIs, and full of bugs.