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News: Is BEA Systems digging itself into a hole?

  1. Is BEA Systems digging itself into a hole? (32 messages)

    "BEA Systems might be the smartest company in the world, but it's going to have to do some justifying this year. That's because it's now facing the big guns, which are heavily armed.", says ZDNet columnist John Taschek. In a recent article, John goes onto imply that BEA has been extremely lucky, but its current strategy could be bringing impending doom.

    Read Is BEA Systems digging itself into a hole?.

    Threaded Messages (32)

  2. I think, The Author doesn't like BEA systems for some personal reasons(May be He won't get job in BEA :-p).

    All good things are arrogant in the world.Any exception?

    If Oracle iAS is really doing well, Why they prefer Orion server for their business?Oracle entered into Java Ecommerce in the beginning of 1998.Any improvement?Larry Ellison's idea failed in Ecom world.
    BEA weblogic gives wonderful support to Oracle database.Larry Ellison should be proud of it.

    I am sure,there is no competitor for BEA weblogic products in the market.Which server comes with all the updated facilities other than Weblogic?

    IBM websphere never make a competition with BEA weblogic:)
    Never possible.

    The Author doesn't give reliable technical reasons.

    BEA is ready to face heavy guns and armed forces.It will win always.

    Thanks

    Lawrence

    Note : I am not BEA systems employee but I love weblogic
  3. I don't think the author has anything against BEA, I believe he's simply saying that as the Java Application Server market becomes more commoditized, BEA is going to have a harder and harder time competing with IBM, Oracle and maybe iPlanet on features, speed and reliablity alone. Soon, they will all be reliable, fast and have a consistent feature set. Also, I'm sure we'll see this commoditization drive prices way down forcing (as the author states) the Java Application Server vendors further up the food chain selling higher margin Enterprise applications and hardware -- who do you think will win that war? I believe BEA made a really good move when it bought WebLogic years ago and they'd better have some good moves left because the competition is coming and it's not Kiva and NetDynamics.
  4. BEA probably has the most focused and well planned strategy of any software vendor in the market. They are consistently ahead of the competition. IBM is still tied to legacy products. They can't move as swiftly because they're market is still the IBM dominated shop, not the Windows or Solaris market. I can't find case studies for WebSphere that are not part of a total IBM solution involving DB2 and AS400s. Oracle and Sun seem to have a problem with their product development. They change strategies as the wind blows. Neither offers the complete range of products that BEA offers for enterprise integration.

  5. Many people are under estimating IBM and giving BEA too much credit. I know many compaines who run WebSphere on Solaris and Oracle(dowjones). As a matter a fact IBM currently pushes using Oracle when running WebSphere on Solaris. IBM is among industry leaders with Web Services and XML. They play the middle of the fence between Microsoft and Sun. They are a major force on the SUN comittee pushing the specs. They have by far the best and most robust Messaging system in the industry. Websphere 3.5 i a great release and 4.0 looks like it will push them ahead of the pack in the J2EE market.
  6. Please provide the extensive list of companies that are using WebSphere along with Solaris and Oracle. IBMs case studies on WebSphere are only IBM shops using DB2.

    BTW how long does it take to install WebSphere and make it operational? I've been told by vendors that support both WebSphere and WebLogic that WebSphere requires IBM consultants and about a week to get it up to speed. I have Weblogic running demos and some test cases in a couple of hours. Besides the fact that WebSphere 3.5 is neither EJB 1.1 compliant or J2EE compliant. Can't comment on WebSphere 4.0 since it's not shipping yet.
  7. I think you have to take into consideration the kind of guns availavble:
    * Techinical competence
    * Techincal Marketing
    * Executive marketing
    * Amount of financial funds

    There is no doubt about BEA having very good technical competence, given there long history with transactional systems. They also have very good technical merketing.
    When it comes to marketing against decision makers, they may fall short. It has been show time and time again that not always the best product wins, because good marketing people convinces decision makers.

    In the end the total amount of money each vondor can afford to spend developing & marketing who wins this war (get the largest market share).
    On the other side I think there will always be room for good techincal solutions and Open Source alternatives.
  8. It was an overview and prediction of the martket situation not the technical advantages/disadvantages. And I agree that BEA will face some hardnesses soon. One of the point: the customer which bought Weblogic app serv often bought also Oracle DB. Right now it is possible to buy app serv and DB from one vendor. Why not? I think the best time for Weblogic past. The competition grows and it is simpler for player No. 1 to lose market share than to increase.
    Best regards.
    Maxim
  9. If author were to be a Devloper who used WLS and other products his words would have been:
    "I think it has no competitors. I thinks Oracle is a bunch of schmoes who happen to own a leading database platform. I think IBM's WebSphere is weak competition at best. I doesn't care about Sun."
    Rather than the same words starting with "BEA Thinks ..."


  10. I think JBOSS is easier to develope and deploy that WLS does.
  11. Odd - I could have sworn Tyler posted a long diatribe yesterday as the first response to this posting. I don't see it anymore.

    I believe the author is stating a simple fact that BEA will likely have to have a flexible business model in order to survive - Tyler's posting mentioned that BEA's strength lies not strictly in the app server market but in business integration services. Maybe - but I think the market needs other companies such as Oracle to give them a run for their money. Sometimes they do behave as if they are the only ones out there and certainly the best can be arrogant but that can provide a target for the competition, too - and that's what we need. As an independent consultant I want to give my clients several reliable choices as well as cost structures, so the better the competition the happier they are.
  12. Yeah - I saw Tyler's post also, and then it was gone later in the afternoon. He talked alot about BEA's strategy - although I can't remember the specifics. The only reason I would think the post is not there is: A) a technical glitch on tss (not very likely). B) Tyler had the post deleted for some reason.
  13. Ok, ok, you guys got me. I did have the first response to the article posted and I did have it removed. As competive as I and other BEA employees would like to be, at times we have to be careful about how much strategy we elude to in a public forum. I don't think I said anything to forward looking, but I took it down so that I could review it a little more.

    The interesting points to make about the article include:

    1) It's awesome that BEA is getting this kind of visibility! Oracle, ZDNet, and IBM are doing nothing but reiterating the fact that BEA is the market leader and that everyone is admittedly playing catchup. The elephant guns are always pointed at the biggest fish in the sea and it's great to be recognized as that.

    2) Someone in an earlier post mentioned about how high the pricing for our integration products are. I would just like to point out that the pricing listed above is outdated and the new pricing for the WebLogic Integration platform, which is a combination of business process management, B2B integration, XML->XML translation, XML->Non-XML translation, and dual directional application integration with JCA (all of this based on J2EE) is by far the most competitive price you will get on any integration solution in the market. I can't list details here, but I couldn't believe the rate we are selling it at when I found out. You can contact your sales rep for more information.

    3) About the author's article. Unfortunately, he didn't make any technical arguments -- he just validated the point that BEA is #1 right now. If there is any point to be made, it could be that his focus is too narrow -- he's discussing only the application server competitive landscape when many companies are focusing upon the value-add infrastructure that is higher in the stack than the application server. For example, at JavaOne a couple weeks ago, I believe vendors spent more effort discussing their web services initiatives, integration solutions, WAN solutions, tools, etc. than touting the core application server. The app server is already entering the commodotized space, so determining who is the leader in infrastructure software requires much more than just analyzing app servers; we are moving into a mode where integration, web services, business management, portalization, and pervasive personalization is just as critical to time to market as core J2EE support. A proper analysis should take these factors, their story, and how tightly integrated with the kernel of the runtime will they be. I cannot elude too much to BEA's story in this space that hasn't already been said at JavaOne and press anouncements, but I guarantee it's an EXCELLENT one.

    Take it easy...
    Tyler

    PS: Congrats to TSS on hitting 100,000 registered users either today or tomorrow... It's right on the verge!!!!!
  14. I agreed to the author's point of views. They all
    reflects the facts. Also, It is a good article for
    BEA.

    - don't you think so ?

    tieuchu

    (quote) "best friends are not always saying YES to me"
  15. This article offered absoultely no useful information what so ever! However, I have seen articles written like this before .. hmmm who were they about ... oh yea ORACLE. Weblogic's application server has a majority share of the market because it was first and it was the best. They are continuing to improve it and add more features. The only thing they are doing that is starting to sway developers and companies away from their product is pricing it through the roof.

    Take for example their Process Integrator (or whatever they are calling it these days) it is almost 30K more a processor than it's app server, put that in a cluster of 3 8 processor sun machines and you have 720K additional for process integrator ... ah by the way anyone paying more than 100K for process integrator please email me i have a bridge to sell you. I wont even get started on some of their other pricing. But I guess you have to take the good with bad, we have done that for 10 years with Oracle.
  16. Obviously the author has not use any of these products. I have, and our decision to buy one product over the other was based on reliability and support not on who is more arrogant or who had the best stage performance at JavaOne (it was the funniest thing I ever saw, two industry colossal going at each other). BEA offered us the best of both, and although Oracle may have a new J2EE container, which is based on a very good product, they are back to version 1, which raises questions on how long will it take for Oracle to have a solid integrated product.
    Without doubt Oracle, IBM, and any other vendor will try to out do BEA, but that's good because we all win.

    Paul J
  17. BEA vs Oracle, iPlanet and WebSphere[ Go to top ]

    I believe that BEA is still leading in terms of technology.
    The problem of iPlanet is that, the company is relocating. As
    a result, you can expect that at least 30% of their core developers will be leaving.
    WebSphere: as someone pointed out, WebSphere is an IBM solution for IBM-oriented shops. Besides, WebSphere is not J2EE certified, and is always lagging in terms of implementing the newest J2EE specifications.
    Oracle: a new player in J2EE, its old application server is a total failure. Orion Server may be pretty good, but its documentation is really poor (even though the size of the documentation is big, about 5MB, most of the documentation is not about OrionServer itself).
    In conclusion, WebLogic has reached a critical mass: so many Java developers are familiar with the product. People tend to recommend their familiar products to their managers.
    Best Regards,
    Architect of Wonderful Solutions Inc.
  18. It's damn good that IBM WebSphere rising, it gives a market the chance to hit BEA's prices :)

    BEA is a market leader, sure. But I think it will change very soon. I think that WebSphere is the next market leader or at least it'll take equal market share. I'm not sure about Oracle, I don't think they'll do too well
  19. If there[ Go to top ]

    After reading this article closely twice, I still don't understand Mr. Taschek's point.

    Is it that BEA doesn't deserve its success because it "stole" Tuxedo from Novell? I hope not. What ever happened to caveat emptor? In talking with Mr. Coleman, it's clear to me that he had a vision, he saw value in Tuxedo, put together a business plan around acquiring it, and executed against his plan.

    That Coleman and company had the guts to believe in their vision, and do something about it says volumes. Novell simply couldn't see the forest from the trees. Maybe a ride on the cluetrain would have helped Novell.

    To be sure and as time passed, BEA benefited from its competitors missteps. But so what? Business is about competition. The race is to get to home plate first. And especially in technology markets, getting to home first is paramount.

    As Tyler Jewell points out also, the application server market is in a mature phase. Depending on how you cut the numbers, BEA is/will emerge as the gorilla. Markets like these only choose one top banana (joke, get it?). The rest, unfortunately, will be relegated to chimpanzee status.

    So I’m not buying the "they don't deserve it" argument.

    Is the article's point that Oracle/Orion in combination with HP and/or IBM will somehow chip away at BEA's gorilla status? This at least can be debated.

    I see the possibility, however, as remote at best for two reasons.

    Firstly too much market momentum exists in BEA's favor. BEA has arguably the largest installed base of the lot. Remember the Tornado Theorem of discontinuous market development? Ship, ship and ship.

    Secondly lots and lots of ISVs are betting on BEA. This fact alone is very significant when placed in context with the Windows/Mac wars. How many developers write to Wintel platform versus MacOS?

    The last point could be that BEA somehow is cannibalizing its business by moving into its customer's markets. By what leap of logic did we arrive at this conclusion? How is this happening? Which company, bricks-and-mortar, ISP, ASP, e-business or the like, is threatened by application server software and the application that ride on them?

    Maybe I'm missing something here, but isn't the author's real point just to complain?
  20. Hi Folks,

    I've said this on this site before and elsewhere and I will say it again. You developer folks, get hung up on Application Servers because developers by their very nature are myopic and don't see the big picture. The real battle is not Application Servers or J2EE (which will become a checkbox of required list of features by the way). The real battle ground is who has the best Web Services, eBusiness Platform, Business Components. We all spend our lives argueing about silly things when in the real world businesses want solutions, now, today, that works and does not take forever to develop. The sooner we all realise that is what this is all about the better the name we will give our childlish industry.

    Yeah so what, BEA are the best Application Server. Congratulations to them let us all move on and concentrate on the job at hand. We might all hate Microsoft and think they are crap which is true but you can't blame them for focusing minds in the J2EE world with Vapourware .NET

    That it is not about the Application Server but the services and components you have. That is why Sun was critized for scrambling to announce Web Services as well much later. Let us focus on how we can defeat the evil ones in Redmond with providing Services, Components, whatever and move on from this silly Application Server debates.

    Thanks all

    Michael Fasosin
  21. I agree with Michael, BEA and other J2EE vendors(including SUN) need to figure out fast how to integrate webservices into the app server without modifying a gazillion proprietary XML files, 'cos you can bet your bottom dollar that some one in Redmond is figuring out a way to create a wizbang installshield wizard to do it in .Net right now! BTW this means integrating the whole food chain from Webserver to JSP/Swing to J2EE to Database using **standard** configuration/deployment specs including built in support for UDDI,WDSL,SOAP etc. Right now unless a developer has been exposed to all these different components integration and even basic stuff like debugging is a real pain.

    PS:
    BTW I believe irrespective of the public pronouncements/posturing from Redmond the approach for dominating the web Services market would be exactly the same as what they used to dominate the corporate web server/messaging market.

    Integrate the following into W2K.Net install wizard
    1) Outlook services(mail, calendaring)
    2) Authentication
    3) Directory Services
    4) Web Server


    and voila another corporation just got borged into .NET

    Ofcourse inspite of vociferous support for standards it would just so happen that the default options "to enhance the user experience" would be incompatible with any standards based client or peer protocols(including SOAP,WDSL,UDDI et al)
  22. hi all

    well i agree with george
    what are the J2EE guys doing abt web services

    only IBM seems to have realised it is important and they have brought their webservices toolkit
    But again IBM guys - how to integrate them with Websphere

    BEA guys arent yet talking about webservices

    Redmond guys have included this as a part of their framework already- what are we waiting for ?

    regards
    Anand


  23. I believe that BEA is moving on the Web Services issue - isn't WLS 6.1 a Web Service Compliant release?
  24. dear anton

    you are correct to some extent

    WebLogic 6.1 is not fully recognised with webservices - for instance, i believe there still no support for UDDI

    However the positive side of Weblogic6.1 is its support for JMX based system management

  25. BEA is moving on Web Services[ Go to top ]

    Yawn, Yawn, Yawn,

    God help us we have a long way to go. Sometimes, I wish I was a Auto/Aero Engineer

    Michael
  26. BEA is moving on Web Services[ Go to top ]

    Actually, WLS 6.1 is more web services ready than many people think. WLS 6.1 offers:

    1) Complete auto generation of all web services from stateless session EJBs and JMS destinations.

    2) All web services are generated as custom servlets that in turn invoke the component / message that they were generated from. The component / message can use transactions ot make the web service transactionally aware. The HTTP connection can use SSL to be secure.

    3) We support SOAP 1.1 with attachments and have bundled a fast parser designed for rapid parsing of small XML documents.

    4) We support encoding of all primitives, Strings, XML documents, and arrays / structs of these types.

    5) WSDL is automatically generated for you for web service and posted as HTTP download and in JNDI.

    6) Small, Java client.jar imprint file created for accessing the web service. This file is a standard file that never changes and is less than 100k. You can access RPC and message style web services in it.

    7) WLS does have UDDI support. UDDI libraries are packaged natively with the server. Contrary to popular opinion, UDDI specification doesn't allow app servers to act as UDDI registries yet.

    Tyler
  27. BEA is moving on Web Services[ Go to top ]

    Hi Tyler:

    So, what are the missing parts of today webservices
    that WLS 6.2 will cover ?

    Thanks

    TieuChu
  28. BEA is moving on Web Services[ Go to top ]

    Well, we really can't talk about product futures in a public forum like this.

    WLS is the infrastructure that will support simple web services (stateless). Conversational web services will be supported in WebLogic Integration, and there is already broad support for complex web services there: cOXP, ebXML TRP, BTP, integration with SOAP with workflows and other stuff.

    Expect more stuff from us in the future!

    Tyler
  29. I don't understand why we need to scare about .NET developments.We are at the other end of the spectrum and let Microsoft do their best to lure us.

  30. I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned open source J2EE solutions here. Are they so far behind that they will have no impact on the commercial market place ? I have not worked much with Enhydra but have spent sometime developing with JBoss. JBoss is seems to be getting there, bit by bit. As with most people who have developed with WLS I am a huge fan, but of course it's never my own money being used to purchase the product. Does anyone have any thoughts on when/if open source products will have an impact on BEA ?
  31. I think it depends on what companies are looking for. WLS offers a lot (and more to come, as I understand) of horizontal enterprise integration services outside of any sort of standard application server - but for basic j2ee containers , jsp/servlet containers - I expect the JBosss of the world to increase their market share to some degree. It always takes the bigger companies a long time to try something like opensource software - after all, if you don't spend a gazillion dollars on software then it can't possibly be good, right? :-) It always starts with the smaller companies where cost IS a factor and its not always market hype that plays the major role in the purchasing decision.
  32. I see very little about the strategy of BEA and its competitors in this article. It is true that Weblogic benefited from its position as a pioneer in implementing the J2EE specifications. Every other commercial vendor in the market is playing catch up. Oracle made a smart move by reselling Orion and bridging the gap. We can only predict the future of this market. What is encouraging is that we see a convergence by a number of commercial vendors. They are all moving to the J2EE specifications for their implementations of middleware. This can only be very good for businesses that rely on application servers. On the strategy between BEA and the rest of the pack, I see very little difference. As far as product strategy is concerned the differentiating factor is price to performance ratio. BEA Weblogic is ahead of its competitors in this important metric. BEA has a suite of other offerings for the middleware market. IBM is the closest competitor in that arena with its MQSeries offering. BEA is doing very well for now and is also adapting very well to the market. I tend to disagree with the author of the article that BEA's strategy is flawed.

    Why should BEA give away the development version of its application server ?

    BEA's strategy is not to sell as development versions of the application server to improve the bottom line. It is just another offering from BEA. From a business perspective, The cost of providing this offering is negligible. It is just a license utility that prevents a distribution from being used as a production version. Does the fact that they do not give away development versions hamper sales ? We don't know as there are no statistics to prove it.

    If Business are smart, they should avoid using any commercial application server for development. I'd encourage developers to use the J2EE reference implementation from Sun Microsystems, JBOSS or Orion Application Server (free development version). Apart from the benefits of a small foot print, they enforce the developer to make no assumptions about the environment. The business can then realize the true value of pursuing a strategy of adopting J2EE specifications for maximum flexibility in picking middleware vendors.

    One cannot say the same for Oracle (Databases and Applications). Most business are forced to pick Oracle because the cost of migrating to a competitor's product is high. That may very well be Oracle's cash cow for now.
  33. this is quite a off beat question.. Can we integrate MDBs in BEA weblogic with Message Broker in MQSeries