The Chandler project which focused on creating a PIM (Personal Information Management) suite, was recently pulled by its main financial backer Mitch Kapor -- the designer of Lotus 1-2-3, co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation and founding chairman of the Mozilla Foundation -- among the discussions that ensued after the project's failure was this thread on the ServerSide discussing the scalability of Dynamic Languages: Following up on this same thread, Ted Neward attempts to answer the same question in a more constructive fashion:
There's an implicit problem with using the word "scale" here, in that we can think of a language scaling in one of two very orthogonal directions: 1. Size of project, as in lines-of-code (LOC) 2. Capacity handling, as in "it needs to scale to 100,000 requests per second" A couple of thoughts come to mind on this whole mess. Just how refactorable are you? First of all, it's a widely debatable point as to the actual refactorability of dynamic languages. On NFJS speaker panels, Dave Thomas (he of the PickAxe book) would routinely admit that not all of the refactorings currently supported in Eclipse were possible on a dynamic language platform given that type information (such as it is in a language like Ruby) isn't present until runtime. He would also take great pains to point out that simple search-and-replace across files, something any non-trivial editor supports, will do many of the same refactorings as Eclipse or IntelliJ provides, since type is no longer an issue. Having said that, however, it's relatively easy to imagine that the IDE could be actively "running" the code as it is being typed, in much the same way that Eclipse is doing constant compiles, tracking type information throughout the editing process. This is an area I personally expect the various IDE vendors will explore in depth as they look for ways to capture the dynamic language dynamic (if you'll pardon the pun) currently taking place. Who exactly are you for? What sometimes gets lost in this discussion is that not all dynamic languages need be for programmers; a tremendous amount of success has been achieved by creating a core engine and surrounding it with a scripting engine that non-programmers use to exercise the engine in meaningful ways. Excel and Word do it, Quake and Unreal (along with other equally impressively-successful games) do it, UNIX shells do it, and various enterprise projects I've worked on have done it, all successfully. A model whereby core components are written in Java/C#/C++ and are manipulated from the UI (or other "top-of-the-stack" code, such as might be found in nightly batch execution) by these less-rigorous languages is a powerful and effective architecture to keep in mind, particularly in combination with the next point.... Where do you run again? With the release of JRuby, and the work on projects like IronRuby and Ruby.NET, it's entirely reasonable to assume that these dynamic languages can and will now run on top of modern virtual machines like the JVM and the CLR, completely negating arguments 2 and 4. While a dynamic language will usually take some kind of performance and memory hit when running on top of VMs that were designed for statically-typed languages, work on the DLR and the MLVM, as well as enhancements to the underlying platform that will be more beneficial to these dynamic language scenarios, will reduce that. Parrot may change that in time, but right now it sits at a 0.5 release and doesn't seem to be making huge inroads into reaching a 1.0 release that will be attractive to anyone outside of the "bleeding-edge" crowd. So where does that leave us? The allure of the dynamic language is strong on numerous levels. Without having to worry about type details, the dynamic language programmer can typically slam out more work-per-line-of-code than his statically-typed compatriot, given that both write the same set of unit tests to verify the code. However, I think this idea that the statically-typed developer must produce the same number of unit tests as his dynamically-minded coworker is a fallacy--a large part of the point of a compiler is to provide those same tests, so why duplicate its work? Plus we have the guarantee that the compiler will always execute these tests, regardless of whether the programmer using it remembers to write those tests or not. Having said that, by the way, I think today's compilers (C++, Java and C#) are pretty weak in the type expressions they require and verify. Type-inferencing languages, like ML or Haskell and their modern descendents, F# and Scala, clearly don't require the degree of verbosity currently demanded by the traditional O-O compilers. I'm pretty certain this will get fixed over time, a la how C# has introduced implicitly typed variables. Meanwhile, why the rancor between these two camps? It's eerily reminiscent of the ill-will that flowed back and forth between the C++ and Java communities during Java's early days, leading me to believe that it's more a concern over job market and emplyability than it is a real technical argument. In the end, there will continue to be a ton of Java work for the rest of this decade and well into the next, and JRuby (and Groovy) afford the Java developer lots of opportunities to learn those dynamic languages and still remain relevant to her employer.
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