Java, J2EE - the most wanted tech skills on dice.com

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  1. Java and J2EE are the most wanted tech skills on dice.com.
    This list is picked up from dice.com on 11.04.2003.
    Nubers show job offerings in last 30 days with no other restrictions:

     1. Java - 4355
     2. J2EE - 4227
     3. Unix - 4173
     4. SQL - 3989
     5. C++ - 3888
     6. Oracle - 3676
     7. ASP - 3309
     8. Windows - 2940
     9. C - 2587
    10. SQL Server - 1916
    11. Basic - 1874
    12. VB - 1670
    13. HTML - 1317
    14. DBA - 1198
    15. DB2 - 1021
    16. Perl - 979
    17. Mainframe - 874
    18. PL/SQL - 790
    19. Linux - 781
    20. WebSphere - 688
    21. PHP - 647
    22. Sybase - 645
    23. WebLogic - 545
    24. Cisco - 478
    25. C# - 358
    26. Apache - 244
    27. JMS - 105
    28. Informix - 101
    29. Tomcat - 77
    30. Delphi - 74
    31. MySQL - 60
    32. .NET - 17

    Mileta

    Threaded Messages (138)

  2. Search engine 101[ Go to top ]

    If you use ".net" instead of .net you will get 1836 records back... The # in C# is also probably used as some kind of token. I'm not sure what you were trying to prove but I sure won't bet my carreer on your statistics skills...;--)
  3. Search engine 101[ Go to top ]

    Even better, my new languages "and" and "or" are topping the charts!

    Come to the dark side!
  4. Even better, my new languages "and" and "or" are topping the charts!

    Come to the dark side!

    "The" is pretty popular for Internet use - topping many other - according to Google:

    if: 328,000,000
    or: 616,000,000
    not: 451,000,000
    a 2,150,000,000
    and: 2,230,000,000
    the: 3,460,000,000 <=== Do we have a winner?

    Now if "The" just had a Tangosol interface...

    Regards,

    Rich
    JavaSkyline
    We now return you to the future - already in progress.
  5. Search engine 101[ Go to top ]

    Yes, there are many search engine gotchas. ".net" would match "www.foobar.net" and Java would match "java script". If you try to fix the Java results by using "java and not script" you'd miss out on jobs that have java as a requirement and also shell scripting or java script. The comment about the # being screened out is also a posibility (I haven't checked this though).

    As much as these numbers are comforting, one needs to remember that:
    "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics."
  6. Searched on "C#". I get 3018 records.
  7. C#[ Go to top ]

    The other poster was correct. # is being filtered out.

    "C#" yields 2722 results and "C" yields 2722 results.

    According to dice, C# == C.
  8. Somewhere over the rainbow[ Go to top ]

    Somewhere in a deep dark corner of the world, through a twisted maze of tunnels and labyrinths in the depths of the earth, Rolf Tollerud's hysterical laughter can be heard rolling through the chasm that is his home.

    Rolf... the gnome of statistics, gleefully revelling in an article made just for his kind of absurdity.
  9. Colon!

    The correct way of doing it.

    First: You have to avoid the sites that are not reliable when you search on c# and .net.

    Second: It is worthless to show the pickings for just one day - You have to have measurements over a lengthy period of time.

    Two sites that fulfill the requirements are jobsearch.monster.com and www.it.jobserve.com. These sites are ideal candidates, the more so as one is in US, the other in Europe.

    I started the check in January with .net vs. weblogic.

    Since March, I take every day the numbers for java, c#, .net, weblogic and j2ee. That is 10 numbers everyday for the two sites.

    I will return with the results after 3 months - when I have 900 checkpoints. I invite more people to do the same (to avoid the squirming excuses this time)

    Until then, have a good time!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  10. Rolf,

    I did this a few years back and realised that the figures still fluctuated wildly dpeending on the time of day and also some quirks in the jobserve (I already posted stats for today earlier) SQL.

    With Jobserve, if you ran the same queries again and again it would vary the number of jobs returned.

    You also have to account for the fact that with jobserve there are many double postings for the same role both from the same agency and different agencies for the same role
  11. Aaron,

    I and (everybody else) are aware that it is many sources of error. But you must understand that if the 900 measurements over a 3 months period of time show a definite trend, the result set is statistically significant (as they say in stat lingo.) It is about the law of big numbers.

    So please do not come with squirming excuses already – after all, maybe the test will maybe show that Java/J2EE is going forward on all fronts!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  12. I'm studying dice since three years.Two months back there were only 800 hits using J2EE. They've changed their search engine.

    If you have a look at the details you'll see that many hits don't include J2EE - 'only' Java...or Java Script

    Oliver dot Lauer at epost dot de
    Old Europe
  13. So please do not come with squirming excuses already – after all, maybe the test will maybe show that Java/J2EE is going forward on all fronts!


    Rolf,

    What's this all about, I was just pointing out some stuff I noticed when I kept the stats

    Aaron
  14. \Robinson\
    I did this a few years back and realised that the figures still fluctuated wildly dpeending on the time of day and also some quirks in the jobserve (I already posted stats for today earlier) SQL.
    \Robinson\

    The figures also vary wildly depending on how widely "known" a given position is by recruiting firms. If you've done any serious on-line job hunting, after awhile it becomes very apparent that many individual "jobs" are actually dupes - the same physical position, being sought after by many individual recruiting companies.

    In my own searches, it was not uncommon to see the same job listed by 5 different agencies.

    At the same time, even though search engines claim they disallow it, there are still a large number of generic listings which don't map to a physical job - it's recruiters trolling for talent to put into their database.

    You might think that all the fluctuation would cancel itself out, but I don't think it does. At any given moment in time, if you see "1,452" jobs for Java (or whatever), the _actual_ number of physical positions is going to be far less. And you can't easily tell how much less. At least this is true on Dice, Monster, and Hotjobs....

         -Mike
  15. the searches are rock solid[ Go to top ]

    I do not understand what all the fuss is about.

    If you are trying to find out exactly how many Java or .NET jobs there actually is, that is very difficult. If you search on ".NET or C# or VB" for example, you also get the old VB6 programmers, which you do not want. And "java" matches "javascript" and so on.

    But we are not trying to do that. We are looking for trends.

    And here I find the numbers from both sites rock solid. For example, if you take the last week – the .net percentage of Java never waver more than 1% up or down – in other words everyday has shown the same result. (44% in EU 35% in US), the attempts to discredit the searches are absurd.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  16. BungHole[ Go to top ]

    heh heh, bunghole = c#
    bungholio !!!!!!!!!!!
  17. heh heh[ Go to top ]

    Rolf Tollerud = bunghole
  18. the searches are rock solid[ Go to top ]

    \Tollerud\
     
    If you are trying to find out exactly how many Java or .NET jobs there actually is, that is very difficult. If you search on ".NET or C# or VB" for example, you also get the old VB6 programmers, which you do not want. And "java" matches "javascript" and so on.
    \Tollerud\

    OK, so you're already stating that your baseline data is essentially bad - you can't tell with any accuracy what are dupes, what are mis-hits, etc....We then go onto...

    \Tollerud\
    But we are not trying to do that. We are looking for trends.

     And here I find the numbers from both sites rock solid. For example, if you take the last week ? the .net percentage of Java never waver more than 1% up or down ? in other words everyday has shown the same result. (44% in EU 35% in US), the attempts to discredit the searches are absurd.
    \Tollerud\

    Yes, but you're extrapolating trends from bad data.

    How many of those listings you're using as a reference are trolls by recruiters with no job to back them up? Everyone of those trolls will tend to stick in the system - artificially driving up numbers and _keeping_ them driven up. These sorts of things are mindlessly reposted over and over again, and the people doing them for technology "X" will keep that technology artificially high. And if they're not doing it for both Java and .net, guess what - you have an artificial disparity.

    Likewise - given that a given job gets picked up by multiple recruiters, a discrepancy of 10 real jobs between the two can easily ballon into a discrepancy of 30, 40, or 50 listing "hits".

    Finally - given all of the above, your "never waver more than 1% up or down" appears ludicrous on face value. Given the small numbers of active jobs on the major boards, the cycles of the market, and the impact that a large number of major hires coming out simultaneously from a multi-national can have - given all those things, you should realize that a "rock solid" result should be immediately suspicious. Ask any recruiter - the job market is _never_ that predictable.

        -Mike
  19. Elegant..[ Go to top ]

    Very nice squirming excuse - I save it if you do not mind.

    Maybe I myself will have a use for squirming excuses in the future?

    You never know! Thanks!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  20. Elegant..[ Go to top ]

    \Tollerud\
    Very nice squirming excuse - I save it if you do not mind.
    \Tollerud\

    There's no squirming involved, I assure you. Personally, I have no idea if .net or Java has more jobs out there. But any first-year stats student can look at your methods and tell you that your results are meaningless. If you quanitfy the uncertainty in your data, then you've got a shot - but you appear to not to have even attempted to do that.

    In other words - you have no idea what the source of your trends are. It could be a trend in the job market at large. It could be 5 Microsoft-specialist recruiting firms listing a disproportionate number of troll listings. It could be a bug in the database that keeps serving up old data. It could be .net hitting 2,000 networking jobs with Cisco networks.

    The point is, once again - if you can't quantify how dirty your data is, and the nature of it, then any trend analysis is hopeless. And it's not about you personally - it's anyone who thinks listing hits from a job site indicates anything whatsoever about the real job market. If you personally know any recruiters (who you trust!), ask them about it sometime. They'll have a much more accurate picture of what the market is really like, becuase they do this for a living and their livelihood depends on it. Where as Job posting sites really just on lots of job postings...you do the math.

    When you can accurately categorize your data, and cull the wheat from the chaffe (or at least put a percentage number on dupes, mis-hits, and what not), then your numbers might have meaning.

        -Mike
  21. The only thing you need to do is to make random samples - spot checks, in your searches for java, c#, .net, weblogic and j2ee. I invite you to do it - then you will see for yourself that it is for the most part real jobs. And for the fluctuations and errors - they are the same in both camps.

    It is pathetic with these endless excuses. Do you want me to give an exhaustive list of all the things this last year that the Javs/J2EE people have to invent excuses for?

    My god..Are you familiar with the British term "to be a Good Sport"?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  22. Do you want me to give an exhaustive list of all the things this last year that the Javs/J2EE people have to invent excuses for?


    Sure, as long as I can reply with a list of things that Windows/.net people have to invent excuses for (can anyone spell "nimda", "loveletter", "trustworthy comp...")

    För faan Rolf, du är ju lika patetisk som jag - klockan är halv 4 lördags morgon och vi sitter och debatterar om vilken mjukvaruplattform som det finns flest jobb för? Jag tänker skaffa mig ett liv, du får gärna fortsätta om du vill.

    Fortsätter du så bekräftar du en gång för alla vem av oss det är som är den vettlösa fanatikern utan kredabilitet. Ha ett trevligt liv.

    (Translation)

    For god's sake Rolf, you're just as pathetic as I am - it's half past 3 saturday morning and we're debating what software platform is currently offering more jobs? I'm gonna get myself a life, you may continue if you like.

    If you *do* continue, you're once and for all confirming who's the senseless fanatic without cause of credability. Have a nice life.

    - Mikael.
  23. Thank you Mikael[ Go to top ]

    Every post from you helps my cause and illustrates my points better than I could do myself.

    With friends like you the Java/Unix camp need no enemies..

    Again, thanks!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
    P.S.
    I am just a little worried, are you are eating properly? Remember, a proper breakfast will nicely fortify you until lunch!
  24. delusional still[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: With friends like you the Java/Unix camp need no enemies..

    Java and Unix? As a synonym? Most developers may work with Java now, but a majority still do their work on Windows. The benefit of Java is that it also runs on other platforms, and does so very well.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  25. is Cameron on his deathbed?[ Go to top ]

    Cameron, I am disappointed. No Epithet? No "opinionated psycho-babe" No "blabbering idiot", No Ninja?. So people can forget what the discussion really is about? (the disintegration and melt-down of the java?).

    Only
    "The benefit of Java is that it also runs on other platforms, and does so very well"

    Rather lame, don't you think? Or have you suddenly decided to become honest?
    How sad.

    How shall I find an other adversary so close to my own level? Rather bleak future for me bashing teenagers like Mikael..

    "One day I will throw up my hands, scream, and run from the house, and that will be the last of the great project".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  26. <blockquote>How shall I find an other adversary so close to my own level? Rather bleak future for me bashing teenagers like Mikael.. </blockquote>

    How about having a look at the local playground. There are probably "people" there with a similar mindset to you that you can argue about how big a share you should have of the sand pit. They probably only are a fraction of your size too, so if you get too frustrated you can simply beat them up. Assuming their parents aren't around.

    I've never in my professional life seen anyone waste so much time mindlessly trolling forums. Instead of mindlessly proclaiming that Java sucks and Microsoft will be the ruler of the universe, why don't you show some examples of why you think .net is a better platform than Java/J2EE? Why don't you give us some examples of what YOU have actually ever achieved? Many of your "adversaries" are brilliant programmers with high-profile open-source or commercial products under their belts. You're just a high-profile whiner that only "supplies" a totally non-critical rehash of Microsoft marketing speak.

    I currently work with Java/J2EE (last five years) and have had great success with it. Before that I had great success with other programming environments. If I would get a job where the work would involve .net I'd do that too, no sweat. After all these are just tools that are used to bring value to our clients.

    I've seen some mindless bigots/zealots in many communities: OS/2, emacs, Java, Linux etc. But you are probably the most mindless zealot I've seen. It really shames me if you are a Swede, which I hope you aren't. I always thought you were Norwegian.
  27. we are very very angry[ Go to top ]

    David,

    Where have you been? Are you not aware of the massive campaign of lies and slander against Microsoft started by Sun and spread around the world?

    Patrick Boyle:
    “The Java/UNIX/Oracle camp particularly seems to enjoy casting their technical preferences in quasi-religious terms that encourage hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. The rhetoric used by Java advocates about Microsoft and Bill Gates is not subject to common standards of decency”.

    It is not we (the millions of MS developers) who started this war. But I can ensure you that we will finish it!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  28. P.S.[ Go to top ]

    Of course I am a Norwegian!
  29. The correct answer to the citation from “Raiders Of The Lost Ark” is: “Try the local sewer”

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  30. Disgraceful, Mr. Rolf[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,
    I am a bit of newbie in this forum.
    In my last post in this forum where I read your post for the first time I encouraged you to keep up with courage and candidness.

    Later I read a number of posts from you and I found a mean pattern in your posts. Not very pleasent I must say.

    I would think that in your personal life you would be paying heavy price for the emotional baggage that you would be carrying from this forum. Your reason and purpose of the debate are divergent. Be truthful to yourself first and then to others. It will definitely help you and everyone dealing with you.

    Do try this -www.sahajayoga.org. One thing that it helps achieve is- 'thoughtless awareness'- a very sublime & desirable state of human mind. A state easy to say but very,very hard to achieve.

    Peace,
    Vikram
  31. Why the hell are you people fighting over how much popular one technology over others (J2EE/.NET) by looking at Job Sites like Dice, Monster, etc..... Haven't you all learn that the freaking job that get posted on these sites are fake. Ask yourself this... "Have you ever know anyone who actaully got hired by replying back to a Job offering on these sites before?" and the answer is "NO!". This means that that these Job Post don't count!!! Job Sites like DIce, Monster etc. are there to make companies look good(..like they have opening positions for offer, but no one is getting hired!! ). Get It!
  32. That was a cracker ..... thats soooooo true ,,,,,,,
  33. Make ur minds open[ Go to top ]

    I want to be free from any technology or vendor lock in, though my ideas may be changed with experience and time.
  34. Keep it upRolf[ Go to top ]

    Keep up Rolf. The fuss is unnecessary.
    The figures do represent something. Certainly you might consider some of the constructive criticism here to refine your search criteria. Also we might look interpret the figure differently.

    In my work of performance testing and analysis I come across situation where I have the need to extrapolate and predict. I have had tried to discuss this with people on discussion forums and I come up with huge opposition. Generally the posts point out the involvement of large number of factors and the associated randomness. Rationale and logic apart the unstated is that 'it can't be done'.
    As I see, the unstated is that 'it can't be that simple'. Faith in figures starts coming only when you have included so many factors and so many computations that it becomes incomprehensible to human mind.

    I believe, doing something will result in more knowledge gain than not doing something.

    peace,
    Vikram
  35. \Tollerud\
    The only thing you need to do is to make random samples - spot checks, in your searches for java, c#, .net, weblogic and j2ee. I invite you to do it - then you will see for yourself that it is for the most part real jobs. And for the fluctuations and errors - they are the same in both camps.
    \Tollerud\

    Actually, I haven't bothered with spot checks. Instead, I've done real checking - as in "a real job search". I quit my job in March 2002, found a consulting gig in July 2002 that I've been involved in since, but all the while I've been out looking for a more satisying and permenant gig. That's a year of calling recruiters, dealing with recruiter friends I've known for years, and hitting the job boards.

    Let me repeat - my experience with various job sites isn't an attempt to bait Java people, or .net people, or blue people from Talarian IV. It's a real job search with significant motivation behind it.

    Based on a real job search looking for a real job - I can vouch that Monster and Dice and Hotjobs are filled with junk. I've talked to recruiters, I've e-mailed people, and I've carefully scrutinized thousands of listings trying to find the right position for me. And in doing so, I've discovered:

        - Almost no real position is listed just once. Duplicates are very often. Anyone doing a real job search frequently finds that the "hot new opportunity" someone is pushing is something they applied for already last week through another agency.

        - A significant number of postings are, indeed, fakes. Anyone who's done extensive hunting on the boards can read a posting and tell the generic listings from the real ones.

        - A significant number of postings are sadly out of date. People rarely bother to delete a listing once a job is filled - they just let it linger.

        - The same recruiting companies keep recycling the same listings over and over again. Again - anyone who's done a real job search over many months on these sites has seen this for themselves.

    I'm not making excuses for anyone here. For all I know, there could be more .net jobs than Java jobs out there. But we certainly can't tell from your "research" on the subject.

    I'm not on a crusade to debunk .net acceptance, and I'm not on a crusade to point out the ascendency of J2EE. But at the same time, I see little point in watching someone mislead others with false statistics based on (admitted!) faulty data on something like the job market. For you, it appears to be a trolling game based here. For some people, it's about putting food on the table, supporting their family, and possibly doing something they enjoy.

    And before you debase me yet again with pithy abuses - why don't you try to actually address some of the points I and others have brought up?

        -Mike
  36. Mike, you are only repeating yourself. I have not contested that some faulty data that are bound to appear.

    But as I said before "it is applied equally to both camps", so the faults even outs over such a large amount of data.

    If you think that 900 readings over a period of 3 months does not indicate significant statistic it is you who need to take a university course – not me.

    So what is your opinion of the 0 – 35% (in US) and 0-44% (in EU) percentage of .NET in comparison to Java in ca one year? All air and "false statistics"?

    Madre Mia.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  37. \Tollerud\
    Mike, you are only repeating yourself. I have not contested that some faulty data that are bound to appear.
    \Tollerud\

    Alas, you miss the point. You haven't the slightest idea how much of your data is faulty - where as anyone who's actually done job searches on these boards can tell you in excruciating detail the signal to noise ratio.

    \Tollerud\
     So what is your opinion of the 0 ? 35% (in US) and 0-44% (in EU) percentage of .NET in comparison to Java in ca one year? All air and "false statistics"?
    \Tollerud\

    Go ahead and apply to some of these jobs yourself, then get back to me. As I said - you're looking at a bunch of "data", and admitting there is "some faulty data". I scutinize many individual postings with a very specific purpose in mind - gainful employment - and in doing so I've found through direct and painful experience just how dirty the "data" is.

    Before you even bother to go any further, please re-iterate your extensive research that shows how small the faulty data set is compared to the majority - please, pretty please. Please show from your own extensive research of pouring through individual entries - summaries of keyword searches, but actually reading all of the entries (not some, _all_). And then go call up the recruiters, e-mail people. When you're done with all of that please show us all how accurate your "900 readings over a period of 3 months are" in comparison to the real world.

    As I said - I'm looking for a real job and have to actually pay the time penalty of scrutinizing the details. I'm not taking hundreds of "readings" to prove some philosophical point from suspect information.

    \Tollerud\
    If you think that 900 readings over a period of 3 months does not indicate significant statistic it is you who need to take a university course ? not me.
    \Tollerud\

    Perhaps no one ever informed you that the _accuracy_ of the readings is rather quite important - not just their quantity. A thermometer which gives results +- 20 degrees celcius can give you a wealth of information - sadly, most of which is just plain wrong. Making 10,000 more readings, or 1,000,000, will not overcome the fundamental inaccuracy.

        -Mike
  38. Mike,

    Thank you for explaining everything to me in such detail!

    There are only one thing I still do not understand, after your careful explanation - how is it possible that the readings day after day are so steady (if everything is so in a flux as you say?)? For instance, readings on last 7 days on jobsearch.monster.com:

    java .net
    April 3: 3640 1281 35%
    April 4: 3683 1295 35%
    April 7: 3599 1269 35%
    April 8: 3590 1271 35%
    April 9: 3598 1270 35%
    April 10: 3618 1268 35%
    April 11: 3697 1263 34%

    And come to think of it there is one thing more -
    how is it that this faulty data you are talking about almost always seems to disfavour Java? Strange is it not?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  39. aliis si licet, tibi non licet[ Go to top ]

    On the other hand, when I last published the statistic of Weblogic as a percentage of .NET (and I repeat – this kind of search is accurate), I was "marked as noicy" – but the orginator post to this thread was allowed to get away with ".NET 17 hits", "Java 4355 hits".

    some day you will wake up to reality,
    – do not shoot the messenger I pray.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  40. Rolf,

    Dont worry about this just yet. Many java programmers will
    wake up and smell the coffee when their skills are much less
    in demand.

    The shock will come in an interview :

    "So how many years of dotnet have you done ?"

    Not that far off. Give it an year.

    Chameleon
  41. According to M$ .Not is couple of years old ...(more lies from M$)
    Tell us just a major vendor site that is running on .Not and I will give youe couple that is running in J2EE.

    Problem with M$ trolls is that they always said that single threaded VB is better than Java on which I chuckle all the time

    Now they are saying .Not is great yes it is as good as VB.

    Well we tried .Not and it still sucks as bad as VB.

    By the way in few years Linux will dominate the server/desktop market not windoze. Java is already running in Linux not sure what .Not will do then. ...
  42. Jamie,

    Here you have 200 to start with. If you have problem with your promise, just ask Floyd to help you. He is "sitting on a lot of great stories that he are trying to choose from" from the thread "TheServerSide Calls for Real World J2EE Project Stories"

    http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/search.asp?ProTaxID=1287&InPTaxID=All&SolTaxID=All&CompSize=All&NoMonths=All&submit1=Submit

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  43. Well buddy, The MS branch of a south american country is publishing their "success stories" too... wow!!! what a number of projects!!! I was impressed... more if you take into account that most of those projects don't exceed a budget of 10K USA bucks and are only focused on desktop/client side. Recently, the biggest bank in that south-american country (and one of the top 5 in all south-america) decided to go for J2EE (interesting given the fact that SUN does not have local representation over there, but MS does).

    And that is a fact, not the lie of .NET being 2 years old....

    My whole point: Do whataver gets the jobs done, but done in a proper way and not in quick and dirty one. Be open minded, no platform/language/tool is perfect and it is not a perfect world. Don't be fooled by the astute use of ROI, in the end: VALUE for MONEY is what always count.

    Besides, the biggest Australian telecomunication company (do your homework and find its name) has publicly announced its intention of dropping MS-Office to move to (I will let you gues.....) a commercial version of OpenOffice.

    Anyways, Could you tell me how many banks on the world are running their core business on a Windows Platform??? I would like to update my numbers...

    Thanks,
  44. Recently, the biggest bank in that south-american country.. decided to go for J2EE

    As usual when people talk about J2EE projects you never get to hear the name of the company or any details whatsoever.

    But as you are talking of south-american banks, why don’t you just take for example the Central Bank of Costa Rica:

    http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/sep02/09-16CentralBank.asp

    which are writing their entire systems in .NET.

    And at the same time, maybe you can point me to some J2EE (app server system) similar to:

    major insurance company (200 tps, 700,000 tx/day), Merrill Lynch: 21,000 tps ( yup, twenty-one thousand), 75M tx/day, CNET 4400 tps, 1.5M tx/day

    (http://www.beust.com/smackdown.html)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  45. "which are writing their entire systems in .NET. "
    >> FALSE. They have just rewrote an existing COM application to be ported to .NET . Besides, despite being an application that supports 100,000 transactions per day, it is not the core business for them. And besides that, the CBCR is only 1/4 of the size of the south-american bank that went to J2EE.

    When is the WorldBank going to switch to .NET?? How many banks in your country run their core business using a MS platform?

    I haven't seen your answer for the Aussie company going for OpenOffice... is there any?
  46. Roberto,

    This discussion is very boring and is repeating itself 100 times already. Unix still have a little space in the most demanding and mission-critical projects –the problem is only that for every year this space is getting smaller and smaller and smaller..

    Just a tidbit:

    "Microsoft is finally beating Oracle and competing with Unix in the scale-up
    benchmarking game.
    NEC, Intel and Microsoft published a new benchmark on the bellwether TPC-C
    test for database transaction processing scalability late last week.

    The number two result overall on the TPC-C puts Microsoft's SQL Server and
    Windows Server 2003 above all Oracle database results. It is the first time
    that Microsoft has produced a non-clustered database system on the TPC-C
    that came anywhere near the top results of current Unix systems."

    http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=5707

    (and then they have not seen the result with Intel “Madison” yet!)

    And for “Open-Office”, it is a joke. The Unix World have never understood that the Office-Suit constitute a developer-environment besides being a productivity package. A developer-environment which is used by hundreds of thousands “power-users” around the world – without business would come to a stand still.

    And for the future it is enough to compare the “working-conditions” or “corporate-culture” at Microsoft with the competition.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  47. Buddy,
    Just answer the questions. But do it properly (no with fake answers like "implementing all their applications with .NET..." or just by reading what www.microsoft.com says)

    As simple as that!!!

    RC
  48. Buddy!

    I could answer your qustions if they where interesting. But they are not!
    I have grown tired of these endless discussions, they are getting nowhere - as the Java guys have access to endless resources of squirming excuses.

    The only thing that is interesting and rewarding is observing and measuring the shrinking Java market!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  49. Rolf:
    Just wondering if the questions (that btw, you have generated) are not interesting because you haven't got any answer... I mean.. a real one.

    You answered one of my questions with a fake and totally unaccurate answer. That is a fact.

    Ok, If the Java market is shrinking... why do you keep coming here?? Shouldn't you be out there, busy developing fantastic solutions for the USA DoD, the WorldBank,Metlife and all the companies listed as Global 1000 ???

    BTW... why are you here??
  50. I have also told a 1000 times[ Go to top ]

    For entertainment! I love puncture holes in the self-esteem of people that have an inflated opinion of themselves and/or their work.

    Call me a court jester if you want..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  51. I have also told a 1000 times[ Go to top ]

    wow!!! You should go to see a doctor man...
  52. "And at the same time, maybe you can point me to some J2EE (app server system) similar to: ..."
    >> You might want to find out what MetLife is using... btw, when I was a MS consultant we use to do such kind of presentations, you know... a high level system bla, bla, bla... when ussually our MS products were just sitting on top and sucking info from the back-end (My last presentation was to demostrate how wonderful was our solution that was sitting on top an AS/400 that provided the heavy processing... kudos for the old AS/400!!!)
  53. Men Rolf din dumma jävla fitta du kan ju för fan inte söka på Weblogic kontra .net och presentera detta som en jämförelse mellan JAVA och .net! Weblogic är EN specifik app.server av många och DET VET DU MYCKET VÄL ditt jävla troll. Lägger du inte av med att vara en sån jävla dotnet-fitta snart så skall jag se till så att din mailbox fylls med så mycket skit att du inte kan pop:a din mail längre, kära rolf tollerud ätt telia punkt com.

    (Translation)

    Dear Rolf, please be so kind not to compare hits for one app.server with hits for a whole platform.

    Loving regards,
    - Mikael.
  54. To
    mikael dot carneholm at comitnet dot com

    Men Rolf din dumma jävla fitta

    Translation of the beginning:
    "But Rolf you stupid dammned cunt"
    The rest is about the same..

    As I said,

    "People with that attitude and such language can never be right"
  55. Hehe, go ahead and spam away - that mailbox has been closed ever since I stopped working for that company in 2001 :-P

    >>"People with that attitude and such language can never be right"

    And people perverted enough to enjoy trolling forums have to be prepared to not be taken serioulsy, and that people get *really* fed up with them sooner or later.

    Well, time's up - I have to go back to my primary work, i.e acting as an ******* searching for "Windows Server 2003" and "Java" and then prestenting the results as a trend of .net vs Java (in the same sense as you are comparing hits for Weblogic and .net)

    Taste your own medicin, Rolf:

    "Windows Server 2003"
    dice.com: 1 hit
    jobsearch.monster.com: 3 hits
    www.it.jobserve.com: 1 hit

    "Java"
    dice.com: 4433 hits
    jobsearch.monster.com: 3691 hits
    www.it.jobserve.com: 1298 hits

    Regards,
    - Mikael.
  56. Jojojo...[ Go to top ]

    Det var mig en fin oversattning...
  57. Rolf,

    I have frequently seen you post figures for the number of "J2EE" jobs which have obviously used a search string that does not come anywhere close to capturing all jobs that are using J2EE technology.

    For a start I would point out that not all J2EE jobs have "J2EE" explicitly listed in their descriptions. Equally a search for "WebLogic" does not capture all J2EE jobs posted (I'm sure you do not need me to tell you that WebLogic is not the only J2EE app server on the market...).

    Unlike J2EE, .Net is a "specification" AND an implementation. As I am sure you appreciate, if you want your figures to offer a valid comparison then you should be comparing the figures returned for “.Net” with those returned for “J2EE” plus its constituents (“JSP”, “EJB”, etc) and all the numerous app servers that implement the J2EE specification (WebLogic, WebSphere, etc). Similarly you should be comparing the results returned for “C#” with those returned for “Java”.

    Therefore to get a reasonably accurate figure for the number of J2EE jobs advertised on www.jobserve.co.uk you should be using a search string like:

    J2EE or EJB or JSP or Servlets or JMS or WebLogic or WebSphere or JBoss or JRun or "ATG Dynamo" or Pramati or ...

    (plus all the other J2EE app servers / web servers / MOMs and their commonly used abbreviations - e.g. "Oracle9i Application Server" could be listed as "Oracle 9i Application Server" or "Oracle 9iAS" or "Oracle9iAS" or "Oracle9i AS" or "Oracle 9i AS" or "Oracle App Server", etc, etc.)

    If you used such a search string (and the search engine allowed, and processed properly, such a long search string) then perhaps your figures would have slightly more validity.

    I have previously checked your posted "J2EE" figures using a search string that listed just a few of the most common app servers and have always obtained figures far higher than the ones you have posted.

    Now I am sure your negligence is not deliberate, so perhaps in future you can state the search string you have used to capture all "J2EE" jobs so that we can help you improve upon it and return a more accurate figure...

    I am also not sure why you think it would be significant even if you could actually prove that were more job advertisements for .NET than for J2EE? Given that:

    1. Currently there are already a great number of J2EE developers in employment, and very few .NET developers.

    2. Companies who were using Visual Studio 6 development tools will probably upgrade to the .NET version just because it is the current version, not because they necessarily plan to use the new .NET features. However, their job adverts will most likely contain the string “.NET”.

    3. Companies who do plan to use new .NET functionality will probably advertise for developers with experience in .NET. However, as there are so few developers who currently have this experience, these companies will probably struggle to fill their vacancies and will therefore have to keep reposting the same vacancies (massively inflating their numbers). By contrast, due to the current economic climate, there are many experienced J2EE developers out of work. Therefore J2EE vacancies are much more likely to be filled immediately and so will not need reposting.

    I fail to see why you set such great store by these figures... It certainly in no way illustrates market share, or that companies are moving from J2EE to .NET. But if you are going to persist in posting them, then please at least try and be accurate and compare like with like.

    Regards,
    Lawrie
  58. Lawrie,

    You are correct in everything you say and I agree completely!

    To get all the Java/J2EE jobs I have to search for J2EE or EJB or JSP or Servlets or JMS or WebLogic or WebSphere or JBoss or JRun or "ATG Dynamo" or Pramati etc, etc.

    But what you forget is that it is not fair to search only on .net either. I could get a much higher number if I search on .net or c# or vb or asp etc etc.

    But no matter how you do you will never get an accurate count of the real number of jobs - that is impossible and I never claim that I do.

    What are interesting are the trends. If you saw the example, you understand that when you search something as a percentage of something else, the count is very stable and statistically significant. Then if that number changes during a period of time - something is happening in the market.

    So if you take the example with weblogic and .net. Look:

    www.it.jobserve.com, (I choose Weblogic because it is the most respected App Server)

    January 29
    .NET: 455
    WebLogic: 182 (40% of .NET)

    February 28
    .NET 550
    Weblogic 210 (38% of .NET)

    March 18
    .NET 543
    Weblogic 196 (36% of .NET)

    March 29
    .NET 531
    Weblogic 181 (34% of .NET)

    I am never claiming that there are only 182 WebLogic jobs in January for example, or, for that’s sake, that it is exactly 455 .net jobs either!

    However, the result shows,
    1) Either is Weblogic loosing grounds to the other app servers - or
    2) The whole Java App Server market is loosing grounds to .net.

    - take your pick.

    But what I am claiming is that something is happening on the market.
    I am only claiming that something is happening on the market.

    Nothing else.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  59. Rolf,

    <Rolf>
    But what you forget is that it is not fair to search only on .net either. I could get a much higher number if I search on .net or c# or vb or asp etc etc.
    </Rolf>

    No, I completely disagree - this is not the same at all. VB is a language that can be (and most commonly is) used outside of .Net. References to VB in job adverts will almost certainly refer to pre-.Net versions unless adverts explicitly refer to VB.Net. Searching for VB is thus comparable to searching for Java NOT to J2EE technologies. Similarly ASP existed before .Net and so a match with the term "ASP" almost certainly does not imply a .Net vacancy (however, I would accept that a match for "ASP.Net" does). I will concede to you that you could legitimately add “C#” to your .Net search string because if the string “C#” appears within a job advert then it is most probably a .Net role.

    What you are suggesting is not at all the same as including "EJB" or "JSP" or naming individual J2EE app servers in the search for J2EE jobs. These terms will almost without exception always refer to J2EE-based jobs.

    I think it is far to say that ALL true .Net jobs posted WILL explicitly state ".Net" somewhere in the advert (i.e. “.Net”, “ASP.Net”, “VB.Net”). But, if a job advert just mentions VB or ASP without a mention of the term ".Net" then I think it is extremely unlikely that the job is for work with .Net technology.

    <Rolf>
    What are interesting are the trends. If you saw the example, you understand that when you search something as a percentage of something else, the count is very stable and statistically significant. Then if that number changes during a period of time - something is happening in the market.
    ...
    However, the result shows,
    1) Either is Weblogic loosing grounds to the other app servers - or
    2) The whole Java App Server market is loosing grounds to .net.
    </Rolf>

    1. You will almost certainly need a lot more than four (potentially cherry-picked to reflect your view) data points to show anything that is statistically significant. I know you have said you are planning to do this so I will say no more on this point, except to say that, like anyone publishing results early (and before they actually show anything statistically significant) in scientific research, you have already discredited yourself to some extent.

    2. For the reasons that I have pointed out in my previous post, it is very likely that you will be able to show a trend of growth in the number of advertised .Net jobs compared to the number of advertised WebLogic jobs.

    However, the “results” do NOT show or imply either of the statements you say they do. They simply show that there is a change in the ratio of job adverts matching your .Net search string to job adverts matching your WebLogic search string for the four data points that you have selected which is by no means the same thing.

    But even if we were to accept your flawed logic, it is also fairly obvious that as .Net is starting from effectively zero deployments then it can do nothing but grow (and hence lead to demand, and therefore an increase in the number of job adverts, for .Net developers), whereas WebLogic is already used in a large number of applications and so will not necessarily be seeing such growth (especially in a recession). I still fail to see why you think this is news.

    Regards,
    Lawrie
  60. Lawrie,

    Your logic is razorsharp and it a pleasure to discuss with you.

    "I think it is far to say that ALL true .Net jobs posted WILL explicitly state ".Net" somewhere in the advert (i.e. “.Net”, “ASP.Net”, “VB.Net”). But, if a job advert just mentions VB or ASP without a mention of the term ".Net" then I think it is extremely unlikely that the job is for work with .Net technology."

    It is true that to search on vb will catch the old vb6 users which we do not want and likewise with asp. But there are still “unfair” IMO that I am not able to catch all vb.net and asp.net users.

    On the other hand, if I search on .net or c#, I get about 20% more hits. And I also see that at least on www.it.jobserve.com, I can search on vb.net too – and get still more hits with .net or c# or vb.net. And with j2ee I can search on j2ee or ejb or jsp. But if I do this the relativity remains about the same as the search .net vs j2ee – so what’s the use.

    But all this is unimportant, as I do not need the exact numbers of jobs in either java or .net to catch a trend - the important thing is to use the same search criteria each time.

    "You will almost certainly need a lot more than four (potentially cherry-picked to reflect your view) data points to show anything that is statistically significant."

    I agree with that – to my defense I can only say that I am only human.

    From my viewpoint, tons of evidence of .NET superiority and future viability has appeared this year, in every case the Java camp have had the familiar boring squirming excuses. IMO it is easier to sell snow to an Eskimo than to use logic with a Java zealot. Therefore, my hobby will be to gather statistic.

    One of the few pleasures in the life for an intellectual is to accurately predict the future. Last year everybody was saying that .NET would lit up and disappear like a defective Chinese cracker – boy how they where wrong. This year they are saying that .NET never will be cross-platform and that the Mono project will fail.

    They will be as wrong as they were last year.

    my prediction: "Linux will prosper at the cost of Java"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  61. \Tollerud\
    On the other hand, if I search on .net or c#, I get about 20% more hits. And I also see that at least on www.it.jobserve.com, I can search on vb.net too ? and get still more hits with .net or c# or vb.net. And with j2ee I can search on j2ee or ejb or jsp. But if I do this the relativity remains about the same as the search .net vs j2ee ? so what?s the use.
    \Tollerud\

    The "use", as you put it, is to attempt to be as accurate as possible, and to avoid the possibility of skewing the data directly or inadvertently.

    Your entire tone in the above paragraph (and in many other posts) pretty clearly shows that you don't care a bit about accuracy.

    As for "the relativity remains about the same" - you have not shown this at all. You hand picked a few numbers. If you wish to honestly demonstrate that there's no difference between the two, post all of the data for both the full search strings and the truncated .net vs j2ee.

    Likewise, if you wish to clearly demonstrate that dupes and similar errors have neglible effects on the data - prove it. Take several data sets and cull out the obfvious dupes, obvious generic troll posts, and the like - and then state how many erroneous listings there were vs. true.

    In short - if your intent is to show a plain trend, then make an honest effort to prove that your data is accurate.

    Without that effort, all your efforts here are a complete waste of time.

        -Mike
  62. Mike,

    If you want to try to find out how many jobs there really is out there, fine for me – go ahead.

    My aim is more modest. I am only trying to catch the shifts in time, to see the how the market changes I need only to use the same search string constantly.

    If you cannot understand that, I cannot help you.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  63. Both Perm Contract
    C++ 1525 1336 217
    Java 1495 1127 411
    .net 652 544 122
    J2EE 588 420 190
    C# 260 223 44

    This lists mainly UK jobs although has some european and internation coverage.
  64. Everyone knows that 90% of the jobs on jobserve are fake, used only to generate sales leads.
  65. they never learned to blush..[ Go to top ]

    Michael,

    I had to admire you folks for your ability to keep a straight face when you make your claims. And in US - 90% of the jobs on jobsearch.monster.com are fake too I suspect?

    LOL

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  66. C#[ Go to top ]

    If you search for ' "C#" AND ".net" ' and look at the actual description, you will get a better result. ( if [ 'c' == 'c#' ] as the previous reponder said ) there won't be many ads that say C AND .NET. Please note, I did not prove this by going thru all the listings.

    My wife went thru the C# job hunting process here in the NY & NJ area. Very FEW C# jobs, many more VB.NET jobs. Right now, VB.NET is winning the race. I agree with the basic premises of this thread, we saw lots of java/j2ee jobs, only a few .net job.

    For anyone interested in doing .NET work, Please note, most of the job listings we saw required COM+/MTS or DNA in addition to the C# or VB.
  67. My *very* unscientific random examination of Dice listings for developers in the Silicon Valley seems to show about 9 jobs requiring Java/J233 for each listing that wanted C# or .Net. By 'examination' of the listings, I mean actually reading the text of individual listings.
        That squares with what I have been hearing from colleagues around the Bay Area. It seemed like there was a lot of interest in the .Net framework about 2 years ago, I know I spent some time boning up on it myself 2 years ago. Since then the buzz has died down quite a bit. I think this is due to two things: 1) After trying out simple programs in C#, people seemed to conclude it was *so* similar to Java, that one could defer any learning time to when it might be truly needed, and 2) the Java universe is just too rich to ignore, especially the Open Source offerings. When you can download a component or framework for *free*, with no purchase justifications, license hassles, etc. that's pretty hard to beat. Being able to download multiple competing Java solutions in an afternoon, keep the one you like and delete the rest, is just too good a deal to walk away from.
  68. Oh.... come on...
    You guys are hopeless, :)
  69. These results are skewed, among other reasons, by the fact that many of the postings are the same job submitted by many different recruiters who are vying for a piece of the pie. Large companies in particular tend to outsource to multiple "IT companies" who are really just recruiters who outsource to recruiters.

    This N-tier hiring architecture was obviously copied from the well known N-tier architecture used by so many enlightened programmers in recent years.
  70. NOT Java :-)[ Go to top ]

    It is comforting that it also returns 21,000+ (5 times more) items for "NOT Java". :-)

    Incidentally, it returns 0 (zero) items for "Java AND NOT JavaScript" in advanced search. Maybe the search engine itself is written in Java? :))

    -V.
  71. xml?[ Go to top ]

    right on target..but..was XML overlooked and not part of your query perhaps?..just surprised not to see it.
  72. If there are that many Java and J2EE jobs out there how come there is a huge unemployement in the Java community now? I personally think of two things.<br>
    1. Most of them have already been filled and deliberately or not deliberately been left out there.<br>
    2. Most of them are fake.<br>
    I recently read an article where they said some companies publish fake jobs on these job boards to get their hands on the physical and email addresses of applicants only for the purpose of selling them to third parties. Think about this.

    Francis
  73. does anybody want Jboss skills ?[ Go to top ]

    I worked for a small ISV who was developing a business app on Jboss . Since then, I havent managed to find one shop that is looking for experience on Jboss! Marc etc -- where are those IT guys who have downloaded JBoss a biillion times ?

    oh well , WLE with free developer edition -- here I come !

    Ouch!
  74. Companies using JBoss[ Go to top ]

    I worked for a small ISV who was developing a business app on Jboss . Since then, I havent managed to find one shop that is looking for experience on Jboss! Marc etc -- where are those IT guys who have downloaded JBoss a biillion times ?

    >
    > oh well , WLE with free developer edition -- here I come !
    >
    > Ouch!

    Ever heard of Verisign? They use JBoss extensively.

    Regards,

    Cory Adams
  75. <cory>
    Ever heard of Verisign? They use JBoss extensively
    </cory>

    Cory ,

    Check your facts before you post. Yes I have of Verisign but are they not hiring any Java /Jboss developers.

    This is from their job listing web site. Notice that they are looking for Weblogic and not Jboss experience.

    <Verisign Job details >
    "Experience using Cygent Order Management software, Weblogic, TopLink, PERL and/or Apache a plus. "
    </Verisign Job details >

    I am beginnnig to think that people download Jboss as its free but rarely bother to push it into data centers or mission critical applications. I have been seeing a complete lack of demand for Jboss developers.



    -dd
  76. I always thought J2EE was standard so developers could use Weblogic, Webshpere, JBoss, SunONE or any other J2EE standard implemenations without having to relearn everything from scratch. From my experience using all of them it generally is so why adverstise for a proprietary J2EE standard developer? Come to think of it SQL is supposed to be a standard too but you never see a posting asking for Sybase or MS SQL Server experience just one or the other (even if they both started out in the same place).
  77. Rob,

    One of these days, you will wake up to reality.

    If you read the results from search on "weblogic" you see that they all demand specific Weblogic experience, not just "J2EE App server".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  78. An ode to Rolf[ Go to top ]

    There was once a man named Rolf
    Who was son to a man named Adolf
    His aim was to maintain
    That in Java there was no gain
    Dreaming of Little Red was this big bad wolf

    Everyone in the the TSS playground said
    That Rolf was missing some grey matter in his head
    Their aim was to chase
    This annoying man from his place
    As the most imbecilic idiot we have ever read.

    As a child, Rolf was neglected by all
    Even his dog was appalled by Rolf's gall
    So by the time he was grown
    Many a bad seed he had sown
    Many Sears bra catalogs he had stolen for a late night call.

    So before you get all upset
    And ask TSS to let Rolf loose
    Please remember that it could be worse
    Rolf could reproduce.
  79. An ode to Rolf[ Go to top ]

    As the most imbecilic idiot we have ever read

    Thank you Colon. But remember there going to be a facit to all this, if not in 6 months - in one year - in two year.

    "only in retrospect we will find out whom that is getting the last laugh"

    Another ting thing that I have noticed is that as soon somebody mentions Adolf or the third Reich in any discussion - it dies automatically.

    I, for certain, am out.
  80. really?[ Go to top ]

    oh really? and what are the odds that this reaction will be offset by the image of you drooling over an open Sears catalog book, turned to the bra
    section?
  81. this rime rolf is right[ Go to top ]

    <rolf>
    One of these days, you will wake up to reality.

    If you read the results from search on "weblogic" you see that they all demand specific Weblogic experience, not just "J2EE App server".

    </rolf>


    Thats true. Pretty much all shops who are looking to build enterprise apps are seeking Weblogic,Websphere etc. The J2EE standards mean absolutely nothing to the recruiters: you either have experience in the app server flavour(some even are version specific) they have chosen or you don't. Experience on J2EE compatible app server means litle to them. My gripe is that after 2 years on Jboss I find my skills on J2EE appserver job market count for very little. Check the jobs sites if you dont believe me.



    -dd
  82. That was my point. I was stating actuality as opposed to "reality". In actuality if you can use Weblogic you can use Webshpere or JBoss with a very small learning curve (a day or two at most). Whereas in "reality" recruiters think in specializations (I'm suprised they don't hire someone to write the code and someone else to compile it). Most also ask for experience in J2EE and JSP/Servlets, EJB, etc. not knowing that those things are a part of J2EE (nor even that J2EE is the standard used by app servers).
  83. a day or two at most[ Go to top ]

    Rob,

    Coming from JBoss to WebLogic I should say that you are more likly to need 5-6 months..

    "intimate understanding of BEA WebLogic Portal (formerly Commerce Server) ( WLP) re. version 4, 7 or even beta 8.1"

    "BEA WLI (WebLogic Integration) Product Specialist. Suitable candidate will ideally have a firm grasp of one or more of this product's elements (namely BPM - Business Process Management/B2Bi - Business 2 Business Integration Functionality or AI - Application Integration )"

    "WebLogic including; installation, configuration, upgrades, integration with MQ Series, clustering/load balancing/fault tolerance, performance monitoring and tuning, backup planning and implementation"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  84. Who is Rolf ??????[ Go to top ]

    After reading all the threads it seems to me Rolf is unemployed
    since his .Not experience in not marketable. That is why he can spend so much time on ServerSide .

    or

    As usual Rolf is hired mercenary from evil empire M$ who is paid to troll this site. Since .Net is not used and .Not the boards are all empty with no users Rolf gets paid to come here.


    Bill Gates: Rolf did you do your work at server side today ?

    Rolf: Yes Master I did.
  85. do not kill the messenger..[ Go to top ]

    Jamie,

    Contrary to what you folks believe I have work to do!

    So why don't you stop posting outraging things like "if you know one app server it is a day or two work to learn another"!

    Attacking me as a person does not help Java in any way. "Rolf is a bad programmer", Rolf is unemployed", "Rolf hired by MS", even if it was all true -still don't help Java.

    So why don't you keep to the truth instead?

    It saves us all time..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  86. Jamie,

    >
    > Contrary to what you folks believe I have work to do!

    Of course you do! you're still here, aren't you?

    >
    > So why don't you stop posting outraging things like "if you know one app server it is a day or two work to learn another"!

    Yes! Instead, do like Rolf, and post flame baits! So constructive!

    >
    > Attacking me as a person does not help Java in any way. "Rolf is a bad programmer", Rolf is unemployed", "Rolf hired by MS", even if it was all true -still don't help Java.

    We all should help Java! Being the market leader is not enough! And there's this Java clone thing coming with an army of trolls behind it, so beware! I know both can live together, but so what! Clone wars, here we go!

    >
    > So why don't you keep to the truth instead?

    Don't forget the statistics too!

    >
    > It saves us all time..

    what about all the wasted bandwidth! Ha! Outrageous!
  87. Rolf is right - again[ Go to top ]

    I havent seen eye to eye with Rolf ever, but being in the job market with Jboss skills that absolutley no one seems to be willing to pay for, I have begun to take the J2EE job market claims with more than a pinch of salt.

    To summarize, nobody wants just J2EE skills , they want WLE or Websphere etc. And no, you cannot go from Jboss to WLE just in a matter of weeks. There is too much proprietary crap in the commercial app servers to allow you to convince your recruiter to bank on your J2EE skills. Or even talk your way through a "WLE " job interview.

    Yes , you can always downgrade yourslef to Servlets , JSP programmer etc. and fight for positions spots at the bottom.

    So , to summarize, alas, if only Rolf were wrong !



    <rolf>
    Coming from JBoss to WebLogic I should say that you are more likly to need 5-6 months..

    "intimate understanding of BEA WebLogic Portal (formerly Commerce Server) ( WLP) re. version 4, 7 or even beta 8.1"

    "BEA WLI (WebLogic Integration) Product Specialist. Suitable candidate will ideally have a firm grasp of one or more of this product's elements (namely BPM - Business Process Management/B2Bi - Business 2 Business Integration Functionality or AI - Application Integration )"

    "WebLogic including; installation, configuration, upgrades, integration with MQ Series, clustering/load balancing/fault tolerance, performance monitoring and uning, backup planning and implementation"


    </rolf>
  88. Rolf is right - again[ Go to top ]

    \Davis\
    I havent seen eye to eye with Rolf ever, but being in the job market with Jboss skills that absolutley no one seems to be willing to pay for, I have begun to take the J2EE job market claims with more than a pinch of salt.

    To summarize, nobody wants just J2EE skills , they want WLE or Websphere etc. And no, you cannot go from Jboss to WLE just in a matter of weeks. There is too much proprietary crap in the commercial app servers to allow you to convince your recruiter to bank on your J2EE skills. Or even talk your way through a "WLE " job interview
    \Davis\

    Well, first off, actually you can go from one app server to another in less than a week. You won't be a master in it of course, but you can get alot of useful work done. Specific experience with a particular app server mostly goes towards configuration issues and deploying issues. And also knowledge of production configurations and issues like load balancing, clustering technologies, failover and the like.

    But most shops use either IDEs or scripts to abstract away much of the vendor-specific junk. One way or another configuration issues get automated so it's not too muchof an issue.

    The end result is that _most_ of a J2EE programmer's typical day is truly spent doing J2EE work, not things proprietary to Weblogic, JBoss, or what have you. In fact, on the interviews I've gone on very little time is spent on specific app server questions. Some is, but the bulk is on language issues, J2EE issues, and larger architecture questions.


    The problem is that job reqs inevitably get written up with the most specific technology indicated, and recruiters and HR companies weed out people not matching on the specifics - even though a competent programmer could go from, say, Websphere to Weblogic without too much pain.

    So - for actual jobs, superior J2EE knowledge beats out specific vendor knowledge most of the time. But without knowledge of a commercial product, it is difficult to get your foot in the door in many places.

         -Mike
  89. It's not about .NET vs. WebLogic[ Go to top ]

    WebLogic is a app server, portal, integration and development product. .NET is a hell of a lot more than that, so searching both is an apples to oranges comparison. The same is true of WebSphere (i.e. WebSphere MQ). So in both comparisons, given the brand scope of .NET and WebSphere, WebLogic has an impressive presence.

    I'm hard core WebLogic all the way, just to put my biases on the table :-)

    Harvey
  90. a day or two at most[ Go to top ]

    Learning the proprietary portions of app servers may take more time but the basic J2EE is the same. Personally I started out on Netscape App Server, then iPlanet and found Websphere and Weblogic fairly easy to grasp. I never push the proprietary technologies much because what's the point of a standard to avoid vendor lock-in if you lock yourself into a vendor. WLI is not J2EE and MQSeries isn't either. They're products of BEA and IBM specifically and job postings requiring these specify them above and beyond J2EE. Back in the day before someone turned legacy integration into EAI I used to use Netscape Extension Builder in C/C++ for that. It wasn't all that difficult to learn. Companies just are unwilling to train people and want it yesterday.

    Personally I think that companies that don't give opportunities for growth and training to their employees are digging their own graves anyway. 5-6 months is a long time to go from JBoss to Weblogic or Webshpere for J2EE development. I suppose if you're slow it may take that long. But if you're a good and willing employee I'd give you a shot over searching the world for someone who already knows it like the back of their hand.

    Besides the BEA training to be a BEA architect is a total of 20-30 days. 9 days for just a developer cert. Sure add up everying single track for training at BEA and it's a few months. You get different roles too, Admin, Analyst, Developer, Architect, etc.

    Going from JBoss to Weblogic for just basic J2EE development is a couple of days at most and besides if the project is 5-6 months long the guy will be a pro when it's finished. I could understand if he was a contractor, but if he's an employee what's the fuss?
  91. Worst episode ever![ Go to top ]

    Everyone knows the only way to tell how popular Java is is to search on the letter "j", right. And, to tell how popular Microsoft stuff is, search on the "$" character, right.

    Floyd, how about theserverside adding a new feature for voting for best and worst threads of the week or something? Actually, I have a more constructive suggestion:

    I would be interested to know of members of theserverside community:
    -What scope and domain of project are you working on (e.g., enterprise banking or workgroup CMS)?
    -What architectures / "blueprint styles" are you using?
    -What platforms are you using?
    -What languages are you using?
    -What types of UIs are used (percentage GUI, web, Flash, etc.)?
    -What types of middleware, web services are used (percentage SOAP, JMS, etc.)?
    -How many Java architects / developers are working on the project?
    -What percentage of Java projects have you personally seen (i.e., in your company) moving to .Net in the past month?
    -What percentage of your current project is building on Open Source applications / projects (i.e., not counting the operating system)?
    -What percentage of VB/ASP/.Net projects have you seen (i.e., in your company) moving to Java in the past month?

    So, maybe Floyd and Dion can set up an online survey where each of us can fill this info out, and we can update it every month or quarter. We can then look at trends taken from our own firsthand experience, and probably provide a better resource of statistics on this matter. (And, actually, it would be great if the not-personally-identifying data could be accessible in some raw format for folks who like to make more sophisticated reports on things like "how many Java projects have less than 2 developers and are using EJB, JMS, and are running on BEA".)

    What do you think? If you think this is a good idea, what other questions should we track? What are better wordings of my questions above?

    Thanks to theserverside for all the good things on the site.

    Jay Fienberg
    formerly aka j f
    formerly aka jFrankenstein
  92. I have another suggestion![ Go to top ]

    Jay,

    How about voting for the most "conceited, self-important rubbish type of" post of the week?

    You know the kind of person who cares nothing for the customers or even his own company!
    –who is only interested and anxious to get across to the public how very serious, important and computer-scientific savvy he/she is..

    for example, the kind of guy who says:

    "Organize inter-service transfers according to use cases from known domain objects into a coarse-grained Composite".

    In others words, an idiot!

    What do you say?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  93. I have another suggestion![ Go to top ]

    Rolf: How about voting for the most "conceited, self-important rubbish type of" post of the week? You know the kind of person who ... is only interested and anxious to get across to the public how very serious, important and computer-scientific savvy he/she is..

    You'd get my vote.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  94. he is still alive[ Go to top ]

    But Cameron, are you still alive? I thought you were dead and had converted to honesty on your deathbed on the grounds to avoid eternal damnation!

    Best wishes of recovery!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  95. not dead yet[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: I thought you were dead and had converted to honesty on your deathbed on the grounds to avoid eternal damnation!

    "People with that attitude and such language can never be right"

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  96. a dare[ Go to top ]

    People with that attitude and such language can never be right

    At least now I know that the English is correct in that sentence! I always was a bit unsure about that..

    Cameron you should quit your business and become an English-teacher! In that way your talents could be put to a good use..

    But you have not told us your opinion of all this, so why don't we enjoy a little innocent sweepstake? The person that guesses the nearest percentage .net is of Java at jobsearch.monster.com in 6 months (October 14 12:00 am) is the winner!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  97. a dare[ Go to top ]

    \Tollerud\
    The person that guesses the nearest percentage .net is of Java at jobsearch.monster.com in 6 months (October 14 12:00 am) is the winner!
    \Tollerud\

    What I think you are perhaps missing is that just about no one cares what the percentages are on Monster. What they care about is what the actual job market is doing (and by extrapolation, the IT markets at large). About the only useful thing you're going to learn from Monster is the mechanics and strategies of IT recruiting firms, which haven't significantly changed since the 80s.

         -Mike
  98. that is enough for me[ Go to top ]

    just about no one cares what the percentages are on Monster

    I care. Very much.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  99. a truth[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "Cameron you should quit your business and become an English-teacher! In that way your talents could be put to a good use.."

    Thank you, Rolf. That is the sweetest thing that you have ever said to me.

    Rolf: "But you have not told us your opinion of all this"

    My opinion is that I have already spent too much time on the subject. ;-)

    I don't particularly dislike either .NET or Java. I don't care for the old Microsoft "enterprise" technology (COM+, MTS, etc.) but there are probably as many things about J2EE that I could find not to care for. In my mind, the difference is a little simpler than technology: it's about which market companies (e.g. customers) wish to participate in. One one side, we have 499 out of the Fortune 500, plus SourceForge, Apache/Jakarta and Rickard, and on the other side we have Microsoft, plus Ximian and Rolf. Frankly, Microsoft didn't lose on the technology ... it's just that no one except for you wants to play with them.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  100. a truth?[ Go to top ]

    it's just that no one except for you wants to play with them

    And the statistics?
  101. stat[ Go to top ]

    "And the statistics?"

    here, read all and scroll down.
    http://infoworld.com/article/03/02/20/HNdevelopers_1.html
  102. Nicky,

    market research firm IDC:
    C and C++ continued to be the most commonly used development languages, with Java overtaking Visual Basic as the second most commonly used language worldwide, IDC said

    I am not surprised; search on C or C++ hit the roof with more than 5000 hits on jobsearch.monster.com too.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  103. I certainly admit that the numbers in the original post are not showing the exact ratio of job offerings for Java/J2EE and C#/VB.NET/.NET. Sure, Java is not 100 times more wanted then .NET.

    But, the point of the original post is to show that Java/J2EE ***IS*** the most wanted tech skill at the dice.com, and that there is at least several times more job offerings for Java then .NET.

    Regards,
    Mileta
  104. about complacency[ Go to top ]

    Mileta,

    Your post serve best to illustrate the complete uncritical and innocent attitude of the Java camp in accepting everything without questioning.

    Didn’t you see that dice.com could not search on .NET?

    It is true that Java/J2ee is the most used the most wanted tech skill - but you can see it in another way:

    In ca one-year .NET have gone from zero to 44% in Europe, and from zero to 35% in US. (in % av Java) That is probably the most successful launch for a programming language in the computer history.

    And why should it stop there? A Java alike language that is free standard and with an Open Source implementation?

    I think the time for contentment is over..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  105. not good
  106. The most successful launch?[ Go to top ]

    <q>
    In ca one-year .NET have gone from zero to 44% in Europe, and from zero to 35% in US. (in % av Java) That is probably the most successful launch for a programming language in the computer history.
    </q>

    I'd think it's just existing MS shops move from VB, etc to .NET. Are they *really* want it, or just *pushed* by MS?
  107. about complacency[ Go to top ]

    In ca one-year .NET have gone from zero to 44% in Europe, and from zero to

    > 35% in US. (in % av Java) That is probably the most successful launch for a
    > programming language in the computer history.
    >

    I thought .Net was a platform, not a programming language.

    If you follow that trend, in 2 years .Net will have about 132% of the market. The most successful computer language in the Milky Way.
  108. about complacency[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    <Rolf>
    In ca one-year .NET have gone from zero to 44% in Europe, and from zero to 35% in US. (in % av Java) That is probably the most successful launch for a programming language in the computer history.
    </Rolf>

    Where have you magic-ed these figures from? If you are going to post outrageous claims like these then please at least have the decency to back them up with your sources. (Or are these just your figures form earlier posts which have already been discredited?)

    The reality is that what you say directly conflicts with statements coming from Microsoft's own PR machine - that .Net has been taking off at a much slower rate than they'd hoped.

    Also I should point out that (although you probably know this) .Net is NOT a programming language. Therefore your statement that .Net "is probably the most successful launch for a programming language in the computer history" is nonsensical. Although if you had said that .Net has "probably the highest marketing budget in computer history" then you'd most likely have been spot on!

    In fact, one of the reasons for the poor uptake may be that managers are underwhelmed by the much-touted multi-language capability of .Net. Why would they possibly want to have to support applications written in many different languages that all effectively offer the same (.Net) functionality? The only possible reason might be to utilise existing staff’s skill sets and minimise re-training and hiring costs. However, as the following paragraph details, this is just not what has happened in practice...

    Microsoft’s marketing department probably demanded the multi-language support feature in .Net to try and lure the pre-existing base of VB developers to .Net by offering a supposedly painless upgrade path. However, VB.Net has changed so massively from previous versions of VB that a large number of VB developers have struggled with the steep learning curve or are clinging to “classic” VB development. MS has also had to back-pedal on tidying up VB (by removing poorly thought out language syntax and functionality) due to a developer backlash. Just look at the DevX Visual Basic website (www.vb-zone.com ) to see articles like “VB "Classic" Going Strong in the VB Developer Forums”, “Ednote: Abandoning the Fantasy of VB Migration Wizardry -So how hard is it really to upgrade a VB6 application to VB.NET? Harder than you think.” and “VB.NET Raises Hackles - Some Experts .NOT Happy with .NET” for some illustrations of these issues. The last article mentioned states in its introduction: “There's a sense of unease in the Visual Basic community these days. Making VB compatible with Microsoft's new .NET platform introduces so many language changes that some VB experts claim Microsoft has abandoned VB developers.” It all makes for interesting reading...

    <Rolf>
    I think the time for contentment is over..
    </Rolf>

    This seems to be what the majority of VB developers are saying ;)

    <Rolf>
    It is true that Java/J2ee is the most used the most wanted tech skill.
    </Rolf>

    At last we have the unadulterated truth.

    No need to extrapolate "trends" using dubious data when even you concede that this is true...

    Regards,
    Lawrie
  109. all will become clear[ Go to top ]

    Lawrie,

    Why quarrel and mince words when everything is to become clear as water in the forthcoming months?

    Just a little thing.

    All this started when Yann Caroff published the first results from www.it.jobserve.com. I think it was in January - but I am not sure. Anyhow, in the discussion afterwards somebody pointed out that the search on "java" at jobsearch.monster.com resulted "in more than 5000 hits" (5000 is the limit). I remember I confirmed it too by making the same search. But I cannot find this post again. (Floyd! better TSS search tools please).

    If I only could find the post again I can show that the search on "java" at monster.com have fallen from "over 5000" too ca 3700 in just 3 months.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  110. need help![ Go to top ]

    My fault, Yann’s post was more that a year away – in March 22, 2002. But where is the post "over 5000" at monster.com?
  111. Why quarrel and mince words when everything is to become clear as water

    >in the forthcoming months?

    And he calls Java developers arrogant people.

    > If I only could find the post again I can show that the search on "java" at
    > monster.com have fallen from "over 5000" too ca 3700 in just 3 months.
    >

    According to this trend, in 3 months there will be about 0 "java" hits there. And worse yet: in 6 months, there will be minus 3900 hits. Java is really in trouble.
  112. Henrique,

    I have already admitted my fault. The time period was more than a year ago.

    And for the link to the anti MS site, here are some info for you:

    <Ian P. McCullough>
    I did it... it rocked...
    I was an MS Intern several years ago. (And was a MacPhile and OSS proponent the whole time.) It was probably the single best work experience I've ever had. And that's even after I mention that my boss and I clashed at every turn and I ultimately got a "no hire" recommendation, pretty much blacklisting me from ever working there again. You can hate the way they do business, or their FUD marketing or whatever you want, but at the end of the day, working there is like being an endowed researcher at the coolest, most well-funded university on earth, where they only let in the uber-smart. It was easily the highest concentration of smart people I've ever had the pleasure of being around. If someone had handed me a crystal ball and told me the shit the economy was about to become I would have kissed some serious ass and made sure I got an offer there.</Ian P. McCullough>

    "Morover, In Pricewaterhouse Coopers survey, published today (2003-01-20), based on 1000 CEO's opinions in 20 countries, Bill Gates is ranked first as an company leader - and Microsoft as the most repected company (together with General Electric). This is in addtion to a former survey, which showed Microsoft as "Most Desired IT Employer of 2002".

    Anyhow even if you disagree I notice that you have ended your personal attacks. That is good!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  113. You can hate the way they do business, or their FUD marketing or whatever

    > you want

    Some people seem to love the way they do business, and their FUD marketing.

    >
    > Anyhow even if you disagree I notice that you have ended your personal attacks. That is good!

    Personal attacks? You keep calling Java people idiots, stupid and whatnot. I don't need to attack you anyway. You degrade yourself pretty good with your own attitude.
  114. Dear Henrique,

    You can call people whatever you want - as long as you talk to them as a group and not anyone particular. I will not say that I am perfect in this matter - occasionally I have fallen for the temptation - but for the most of the time, I don't.

    And the Java people can be nice, lovable and simpatico but you know, "in the head" they are a little dense, unfortunately.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  115. And the Java people can be nice, lovable and simpatico


    I wish M$ people were like that too. In a sincere way, I mean. Instead of coming to Java threads and start calling names, since they think it is ok to do it. Not good for their reputation.
  116. Tollerud-filter?[ Go to top ]

    I would really like to see a filter for the pointless crap that Mr Tollerud spits out. If .net was as successful as he wishes it was he would probably be busy working on a project somewhere, instead of spending all his time trolling the various Java sites (here, JavaLobby, god knows where else).

    My guess is that he has wagered his (probably pathetic) career on .net taking off, and it isn't. So he spends all his days reading job announcements posts in the hope to find a .net job that requires no skill that he can apply for, bad-mouthing Java and hyping .net.

    I am actually interested in seeing people from the .net "camp" posting technical information showing how to solve problems in Java better/differently in .net and discussing the different platform's posivites and negatives. Rolf's diatribe is just a waste of space. I have mailed TSS's web master and asked him to ban Rolf's ip, or at least automatically mark all his message's as noisy.

    Has anyone actually ever seen him constructively add anything to any discussion? It seems that he has an endless time to surf the net trolling forums, which strengthens my beliefs that he has no job/life.
  117. Tollerud-filter?[ Go to top ]

    "I was banned at TSS" The only one in history!

    I would be honored..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  118. Tollerud-filter?[ Go to top ]

    I normally don't have time to post messages but Mr Tollerud's battle with the Java community prompted this quick post. It is funny that the most active forums seem to be the ones filled with accusations and Java vs .Net comments. But anyway, my 10 cents:

    - The stats in the original post seem to be incorrect but most of the times when I search monster.com for jobs and compare Java to .Net there seems to be a ratio close to 3 to 1. That is, for every .Net job there are 3 Java job postings. I would also state the trend that most of the Java jobs are server side high end projects, whereas MS jobs are small and often insignificant efforts with low budget. There are exceptions of course but that's a common trend. So technology aside Java world has a lot more to offer.

    - Mr Tollerud, I actually enjoyed reading your posts and you seem to be able to back your claims most of the times. Are you spending your entire day argueing with people and finding information that supports your claims? I remember reading some posts that insist you are paid by the evil empire - is that true? If you look around you'll see that Java community is strong and the job market for it is not shrinking, so what's the point of you trying to preach the opposite? Do you have a full time job? Just curious.

    - My take is that the technologies are competitive and most of the times it's the expertise at the shop or vendor relationships that will influence a decision on which way to go. Job statistics prove Java to be much better and the quality of the postings are on the Java side. I like Gosling's saying that comparing MS with Java is comparing a vendor with an industry. A darn good vendor, maybe the best, but one and a very agressive one. It's like a dictatorship and democracy, if you will, but time will tell.

    Anyway, hope you guys are all enjoying your Monday.
  119. at last some reason[ Go to top ]

    Mileta and Alex,

    Sorry, but I didn't

    No problem, no one is perfect – certainly not I.

    If your numbers are right (and I believe you are close), that still means that Java/J2EE are 2-3 times more wanted

    most of the times when I search monster.com for jobs and compare Java to .Net there seems to be a ratio close to 3 to 1

    Well thank you both, Mileta and Alex. After all that is exactly what I am saying, the ratio is close to 3 to 1. Cannot understand how it can make such uproar – it is almost certainly true or very close.

    Are you spending your entire day argueing with people and finding information that supports your claims?

    I am not using more that ca 2 hours in the week. I have tried a few other forums but it is impossible. Beside TSS is most fun! At least here are real consultants! (no teenagers god forbid)

    I would also state the trend that most of the Java jobs are server side high end projects

    Well that is probably true too, but when you think of the high failure rate, I wouldn’t be so proud if I were you.

    Personally, I prefer neither large or small projects – I enjoy making products – of-the-shelf-enterprise-software, where you have the whole responsibility– from rich user interface up to server business components –where you are allowed the time (no contract deadline please) to deliver quality.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  120. at last some reason[ Go to top ]

    "Personally, I prefer neither large or small projects – I enjoy making products – of-the-shelf-enterprise-software, where you have the whole responsibility– from rich user interface up to server business components –where you are allowed the time (no contract deadline please) to deliver quality. "
    >> Osea, este trol no tiene ni la mas minima idea de lo que se habla aqui. :-)

    Rolf: Could you be kind enough to let us know what are the products you have developed ??
  121. Nothing will become clear[ Go to top ]

    "All this started when Yann Caroff published the first results from www.it.jobserve.com. [...] But I cannot find this post again."

    http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=17627&article_count=44#72363 (in January) or http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=12595&article_count=58 (more than a year ago).

    This little trick is only a way to have a feel of the market. It is not intended to being used as an accurate market trend shower. I think Lawrie is right when he says that given the number of Java people without a job (potentially, I don't think there are accurate statistics for that either), it is likely that such positions won't stay open long. On the other hand, I think that the crisis concerns everyone and I have a feel that .NET projects are not booming as expected due to budget-freezing. Therefore, I would not bet on the fact that .NET positions stay unfilled much longer too, not in a significant way at least.

    And I think this snapshot does not reveal very much as most of the chosen concepts are usually intermingled. There must be a better way to evaluate technologies. Gartner ? :) In that case, J2EE will remain the server-side leader for some time while .NET will still spend 2003 in its hype phase. That was the object of an old thread (http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=17457&article_count=113#71664). For what Gartner's worth anyway...

    Perhaps, the best way is to analyse the financial results of J2EE-based companies and compare it to .NET-based companies but even then, it will be hard to say as Microsoft makes most of its money on desktop applications and other companies under its umbrella.

    My take on that haze is that it does not benefit anyone to have precise figures anyway, just like in performance benchmarks and results. Haze is what keeps competition going and competition is generally acknowledged as good for our overall quality of life. Reality is hazy, business competition is hazy, politics is hazy, marketing creates artificial camps, many buy that and spend hours bickering about it like it's all black and white. C'est la vie...

    Rolf, get back to work! You spend way too much time on the boards! ;)

                    Yann
  122. Nothing will become clear[ Go to top ]

    Rolf, get back to work! You spend way too much time on the boards! ;)

    >
    >                 Yann

    I fear spending time on the boards is his actual job...
  123. Yann,

    The writing for TSS does not take so much time as you think, besides - it is real pleasure - entertainment - not hard work!

    And when are you releasing the Springframework? And the the c# version? These are important qustions..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  124. Rolf,

    "And when are you releasing the Springframework? And the the c# version? These are important qustions.."

    A release of 0.8 is coming soon. It's on its way. Rod and Juergen are doing a wonderful job. I'm unfortunately very busy on my side (and actually trying to get a life a little) and can't help very much for now, which is unfortunate... But I'm using the framework a lot in the frame of my job and my colleagues are starting to have a lot of fun with it. I guess it will eventually breakout with the forthcoming releases.

    For the C# version, we have been waiting for your collaboration, but you seem to prefer message boards... :)

                    Yann
  125. c# version of the Springframework[ Go to top ]

    Yann,

    I promise – as first the first release is coming, I give it a try!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  126. about complacency[ Go to top ]

    In ca one-year .NET have gone from zero to 44% in Europe, and from zero to 35% in US. (in % av Java).


    If your numbers are right (and I believe you are close), that still means that Java/J2EE are 2-3 times more wanted then .NET/C#/VB.NET.

    I am very sorry that this thread turned into another Java/.NET posting war. I take full responsibility for that.

    Regards,
    Mileta
  127. about complacency[ Go to top ]

    Didn’t you see that dice.com could not search on .NET?


    Sorry, but I didn't.
    The original post shows that Java/J2EE are the most wanted tech skills on dice.com, and it doesn't show how they compare to .NET, but to Unix, Oracle, SQL, Windows, Visual Basic, ASP... ;)

    Regrds,
    Mileta
  128. .Net is more horrible technology then J2EE so probably we should all continue with J2EE till its become as horrible as .Net !

    Prasoon
  129. hmm[ Go to top ]

    Prasoon,

    You may very well be right!

    Blueprints and Adventure Builder Java Live Chat
    From the Enterprise Java BluePrints team:

    "Inderjeet Singh: For Web-centric applications, using DAO is a good approach. You can also use JDBC RowSets for a flexible table-centric data model."

    "Inderjeet Singh: JSF is turning out to be a very promising technology that will significantly advance ease-of-use for developers, so we will definitely strongly consider it once it finalizes."

    Eric Ma:

    "Are they also hinting that the ASP.NET programming framework, of which JSF is a carbon copy, is the best model for web applications?"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  130. Work smarter not harder[ Go to top ]

    Hmm... more developers may be wanted simply because it is not so efficient to program in Java. See .Net Component Development Strongly Outpaces Java

    :))),
    -V.
  131. Work smarter not harder[ Go to top ]

    "The leading seller on ComponentSource is NetAdvantage 2003, a set of presentation-layer components from Infragistics Inc. The set includes menus, toolbars, charting, list bars, and grid and editing functions--a 133-megabyte download--in one $433.13 package. "
    >> Yeah, so?? Maybe you dont know anything about the thousand of open source projects already available... have you heard about Struts? Fop? Batik? Come on...
  132. Hi Roberto!

    What he means is this; I spell it out for you:

    How many component packages (commercial or free) are available (made with the Struts technique for example)?

    How is it going otherwise?

    Have you learned to use the javac compiler yet?
    (http://www.theserverside.com/discussion/thread.jsp?thread_id=18105#75436)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  133. Work smarter not harder[ Go to top ]

    Valentin: See .Net Component Development Strongly Outpaces Java

    Since they count ActiveX as being .NET components, Java has way more available, since Java supports ActiveX components as well through several products.

    Try again.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  134. another good one from Cameron[ Go to top ]

    "Components for .Net, which include earlier-generation ActiveX controls, outnumber Java components nine to one on the online component marketplace"

    So you try to defend the nine to one ratio of .NET components to Java components by arguing that Java can use the .NET components! (by very complex and performance-expensive processes).

    LOL

    BTW, have you seen the site: http://welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com?

    Soon you also can have your own site:
    "welovecameronsquirmingexcuses.com"

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  135. Rolf: So you try to defend the nine to one ratio of .NET components to Java components by arguing that Java can use the .NET components!

    First, I don't bother with defending. It's a complete waste of time.

    Second, now that you mention it, I think you're right, all .NET components are fairly easily used in Java and vice versa due to products such as jnbridge. I guess that means I have to apologize for insinuating that Java could possibly have more components available. Sorry, my bad.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  136. Searched for 'j2ee' got .net[ Go to top ]

    Below is one of the results I got from searching for J2EE; J2EE is not mentioned in the text. I guess dice also thinks: J2EE==.Net. When searching for "J2EE" (with the quotes) I did not get this result...weird.


    """""""
          Title: .net Architect - Senior Software Engineer - LA Skills: 5 yrs+ as a senior software engineer - incl: .net, vb, c#, c++, asp.net, ado.net, architect, software, .net, c# Date: 4-16-2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Area code: 310 Tax term: FULLTIME Pay rate: $90,000 - $110,000 Length: Full-time, Perm Position ID: HG-netarchitect Dice ID: cybercod Job description: Hi!

    We are looking for a top notch .net architect that knows c# and is LOCAL to West Los Angeles.

    We have an incredible position in West LA for a top senior software engineer.

    Our salary range: $90k - $100k

    Company? We have been in business for 25 years. Our stock is doing well, and we are making a profit.

    You will:

    Join our small team as we make a strong ASP.NET Intranet platform.
    Enhance the ported system
    Develop projects to integrate the ported system with the diverse software systems

    What do you need? We need a MASTER in:

    A proven record of software development using several languages and platforms.

    Experience in depth with: ASP.NET, C#, DHTML, JavaScript, ADO.NET, SQL Server, MASM, Fortran, and Visual Basic, ( VB ).

    Flexibility and the ability to learn quickly.

    Are you a great fit?

    Please click apply now below (first choice) or email me your:

    ~ resume in Word
    ~ current salary
    ~ desired salary

    Thanks!

    Heidi at CyberCoders dot com
      Requirements: 5 yrs+ as a senior software engineer - incl: .net, vb, c#, c++, asp.net, ado.net, architect, software, .net, c# Travel required: none Telecommute: no

    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
  137. Searched for 'j2ee' got .net[ Go to top ]

    5 yrs+ as a senior software engineer - incl: .net, vb, c#,


    Hmm 5 yrs exp in .Not & c# kinda looks hoax to me but wait have to know single threaded 'VB" muhahaha good luck to the project.
  138. It's only branding, but sometimes small details tells us a lot.

    Microsoft has completed the transition from .NET to .NOT by giving its server and office product families a fresh lick of paint and new names. In January, Microsoft announced it would downplay the brand.

    So the indiscriminate use of the .NET brand is no more. Last year Microsoft was fined by the city of New York for spraying graffiti logos of the MSN butterfly on Manhattan sidewalks, and whoever it is who has been going around the Redmond campus spraying .NET on every Microsoft product too, has now been told to put down the can.

    From now on, the servers will be known as the "Windows Server System".

    Asked about the name change at the PR section of Microsoft's site, Paul Flessner emits a sudden cloud of gwana gwana:-

    "By aligning the new brand with the server platform, we are clarifying that our long-term server business and technology strategy starts with Windows Server at the foundation. With this new brand, we are emphasizing to our customers and industry partners the business value of a top-to-bottom integrated server infrastructure," he says.

    That's a long-winded way of saying that servers are best described as "servers", and not some amorphous blob of language, runtime, or webservices: .NET clearly meant a lot of things to a lot of people at Redmond, but very little to the outside world.

    However a better explanation for the change was gleaned by Network World's John Fontana, who quotes Microsoft's Barry Goffe thus:-

    "We've been inconsistent about what is in and what is out of that lineup. We've done a lot of things seemingly in a vacuum."

    A remarkable statement. Dereferencing the .NET pointer reveals its value to be NULL.

    But there's more. Office also gains the "system" tag, and from now on will be known as "Office System 2003".

    So Microsoft is a systems company.

    Someone should tell IBM, Sun, Apple, HP and EMC: these are systems companies too, in the traditional, vertically integrated sense. Microsoft is a horizontal company in that it doesn't tie its software to its own hardware, except in two cases: the Xbox, which is simply a PC running in Ring 0 (kernel mode), and smartphones, where nobody wants to make Microsoft phones, so it must do so it itself.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/30329.html
  139. thanks for the insight[ Go to top ]

    f'ing eh.