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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
The Middleware Company, operators of TheServerSide Communities, has terminated business ties with JBoss, Inc. We attempted to diplomatically work through our differences that arose from recent events. However, the instability and unprofessional conduct from JBoss Inc. CEO Marc Fleury eroded our optimism for reaching resolution. We regret the inconvenience this may cause JBoss, Inc.
As a company that stewards communities and performs research, we must balance the needs of vendors and individuals who make up the ecosystem we serve. We will continue news coverage and editorial in a neutral manner on technology, events and vendors. We will aggressively address any attempts to lower the value of our communities.
The Middleware Company believes in the promise of open source middleware and wishes great success to all such initiatives, including JBoss. We apologize to any individual or organization that may have been impacted by recent events.
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Message #123800
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
This is a good move forward. I think the message from me and the others who have been involved in exposing their behaviour is clear: what JBoss Inc. (management and developers alike) have done is not acceptable.
Since TSS is such an important piece of the de facto community, it is good to see TMC get off the proverbial fence in the right direction.
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Message #123801
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What business?
Pardon my ignorance, what kind of business was TMC doing with JBoss in the first place?
Andrus
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Message #123802
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What did they do?
As an outsider, I have no idea what they "did," but the statement sounds pretty personal. I can only guess the energy it takes to make something like JBoss happen sometimes bites back. Too bad, I always hear JBoss mentioned when people ask about a decent quality J2EE AS.
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Message #123805
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What business and what events?
What business and what events has taken place between Jboss and TMC? I do not recall. Please inform if you know. Thanks
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Message #123807
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A bit more explanation?
JBoss was caught using fake TSS accounts to spread lies about certain other posters.
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Message #123808
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Was this verified?
I'm asking because I don't know. Fleury seems to deny this on the JBoss blog. Did TMC offer some proof of this? If it did happen, then what lies were spread? Thanks.
sj
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Message #123813
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
Fleury eroded our optimism Marc has eroded optimism of many persons.
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Message #123814
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A bit more explanation?
JBoss was caught using fake TSS accounts to spread lies about certain other posters. Perhaps I shouldn't say JBoss, certain employees of JBoss were using fake accounts, I have no idea whether this was a corporate policy or not. But judging from the TSS response today, one would have to wonder.
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Message #123817
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slashdot is also carrying a thread...
I think the one on sladhdot is more neutral.
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/18/2043206
I never bother to take opionions of anonymous posters ... and I am not sure why TMC is making this a big deal.
BEA and IBM charge an arm and a leg for a glorified servlet/jsp engine... when that stuff can be obtained for free. $10,000/cpu?
The product works and real java developers are not going to be fooled by anonymous propoganda.
TMC: Just disallow anonymous posting and move on....
If this means no more articles/news on jboss.. I guess we can start a better site with jboss nukes.
-I do not work for Jboss.
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Message #123818
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So you say
You say you don't work for JBoss but the problem is that after their actions no one is going to believe you! In fact, most positive postings about JBoss are now going to be regarded with justifiable skepticism, especially when the follow the astroturf script so well, as you have done. JBoss have really screwed themselves with this, it's going to be a long time, and require some positive actions from JBoss's before they regain any credibility.
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Message #123819
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JBoss != Enron
JBoss is not equal to Enron. What is this bs. This is news worthy of a headline. Please have more articles on Spring, etc. and less of this crap.
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Message #123820
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JBoss Details
I wanted to shed some light on this situation from the JBoss perspective.
The relationship between TMC and JBoss has gotten very personal over the past several weeks. For a number of reasons, JBoss decided to end our business relationship with TMC earlier this week (Monday to be exact). I personally sent an e-mail asking that our banner ad campaign be halted and informed TMC that we would not be moving forward with a couple of TMC research projects that had been preliminarily discussed. I also asked that our decision not be made public.
It is unfortunate that our relationship with TMC has declined at a time when there are so many positive things happening for JBoss. JBoss has recently signed some very important deals, won the SD Times 100 award for Top Deployment Platform (for the second year in a row), and was named one of Red Herring's Top 100 private companies. You can read all about it on our website.
We wish TMC the best of luck in the future and will continue to read and post news as warranted.
Joe McGonnell
Director of Marketing
JBoss Inc.
joe@jboss.org
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Message #123821
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slashdot is also carrying a thread...
Sam: I am not sure why TMC is making this a big deal.
If you read carefully, you will note that TMC is the party that is not making a big deal. Press releases and things like that are very easy to understand by noticing what they carefully don't say.
With that in mind, re-read this announcement.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #123822
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There's an ancient chinese proverb
It wasn't an *anonymous* post. From what I read it was multiple postings from several bogus identities. These identities were reused over time to create the impression of a real personality with the "JBoss rules/Other suck" mentality.
It's also disturbing that Fleury tried to spin this form of lying as an industry practice - "astroturfing". There's no excuse.
There's an ancient chinese proverb that says "He who spend too much time su*&#ng his own c#$^k eventually breaks his own neck." I think that's what happened here.
http://jroller.com/page/rickard/20040517 for a blog entry that claims fake postings originated from fleury's IP address.
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Message #123826
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JBoss Details
Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honour.
King Solomon
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Message #123827
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Isn't it amazing
to see all this happening in the open software world in such a high profile way. Oh, obnoxious and boring too. It looks like JBoss allowed some dumb things to happen, but seeing the "other side" post personal email and other unprofessional responses and post such snippy "news releases" (TSS) really makes me think both (all) sides have a lot to learn. This is a great opportunity for learning and I hope all parties can get back to the real tasks at hand.
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Message #123828
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Disallow anonymous posting?
How do you define anonymous posting? Is 'Sam Bhatia' and anonymous poster? Sounds like it. Let's not allow Sam to post anymore. This is the new TSS Patriot Act.
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Message #123832
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JBoss Details
It is unfortunate that our relationship with TMC has declined at a time when there are so many positive things happening for JBoss. JBoss has recently signed some very important deals, won the SD Times 100 award for Top Deployment Platform (for the second year in a row), and was named one of Red Herring's Top 100 private companies. You can read all about it on our website.We wish TMC the best of luck in the future and will continue to read and post news as warranted.Joe McGonnellDirector of MarketingJBoss Inc.joe@jboss.org If things are so good with JBoss, then why risk it with stupid stunts like this inflammatory anon posting campaign? I always thought that some of the JBoss members had odd attitudes towards criticism but I paid little attention to that, until now.
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Message #123833
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
This is from Marc:we must hold ourselves to a higher standard. Our visibility and success puts our customers and partners in a situation where you expect and demand that employees of JBoss Inc. hold themselves to that higher standard. Let's put the professional back in professional open source. "Astroturfing" is hereby banned at JBoss, starting with me. He is talking about upgrading to a "higher standard" now that he got caught holding a really low standard.
I personally hold that if someone sincerely regrets what he has done, then he should be forgiven. But from the above it appears that Marc has a pride problem. He needs to first _understand_ why people hate his guts, then he needs to _agree_ with them, and then maybe we can talk.
Or he can just keep on being himself as long as he doesn't bother anyone else.
Higher standards. What a farce.
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Message #123835
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Identity Verification
Given that the nature of the web accomodates impersonation, would it make sense for TMC to provide identity verification and make it optional to the user?
This is not absolute but more protection against bogus posts.
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Message #123836
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Mike Spille, please come back....
It is my hope that Mike Spille will return to the TSS community.
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Message #123838
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So which is it?
From Joe McGonnell:For a number of reasons, JBoss decided to end our business relationship with TMC earlier this week (Monday to be exact). From the topic: The Middleware Company, operators of TheServerSide Communities, has terminated business ties with JBoss, Inc. Don't mean to quibble but TSS claims they broke the tie whereas Joe McGonnell says JBoss decided to terminate the relationship.
So which is it?
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Message #123839
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Disallow anonymous posting?
hah, 'race condition' indeed. Oh marc marc marc, when will you ever learn? Can you ever keep your mouth shut? This really is unbelievable stuff.
FYI, 'Race Condition' is none other than Marc Fleury, at it YET AGAIN. Sure, it's not technically astroturfing, so technically it's legit since it's a mere anonymous post.
Don't believe me? Read what this 'Race Condition' person has to say here:
http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=21646#97158
and here:
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=21607#97168
Choice quotes for those too lazy to read his boring rants:
'As we repeatedly said we AGREED to pay SUN and are waiting on a contract'
'as for some reason SUN execs and some posts here think we sell the product, THE PRODUCT IS FREE (LGPL) always will be. '
' I am supposed to meet the SUN folks this week in CA for an update on the way open source certification will work (for jonas and us)'
Even funnier is how the writing style matches that of Marc exactly, where even the most amateur of fakers would know to at least vary some elements of style.
Maybe we should all chip in and buy Marc a dictionary to help him look up what 'professional' actually means.
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Message #123847
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In Defence of JBoss
In Defence of JBoss, some statements by certain people on this board has been rather over the board in attacking JBoss specifically, more than is normal for attacking Weblogic or WebSphere. The vitriol is a little high for my taste, and I have to wonder why. Now, I don't really condone fake-id-posting, and I think that "Arun Patel" or whoever is doing the community a bad service. What I don't understand is why they just don't come out and actively defend against the mud slinging that's going around here.
I've been on the board mostly as a lurker for about 3 years (I think, haven't check my profile lately) and I see a pattern of praising most other AS BUT JBoss, and that is just wrong. JBoss, while not the best in all areas, is top of the line for other applications. Having used it and Weblogic, I find that each have their uses.
I feel sad that some employees of JBoss had to use such underhanded tactics to promote their product, but even more sad that the situation exists such that they felt like those tactics were a necessary step.
Jeff
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Message #123852
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In Defence of JBoss
In Defence of JBoss, some statements by certain people on this board has been rather over the board in attacking JBoss specifically, more than is normal for attacking Weblogic or WebSphere. What I don't like about JBoss is the attitude, not the code. I don't feel entitled to criticize code because I think that if Marc writes a lot of code he should get credit for it - because of the sheer work involved. Whether I like the particular piece of code or not doesn't change that.
However, if you don't have TCP/IP multiplexing or a recovery log then it's common sense that you shouldn't claim to be the best app server out there. But, again, those features can still be added.
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Message #123853
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Mike Spille, please come back....
Robin:It is my hope that Mike Spille will return to the TSS community. +1
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Message #123865
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I just wonder...
When is all the wagging of tongues going to stop? Isn't this detracting from doing something worthwhile?
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Message #123870
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
ecosystem? ecosystem?
Why is the developer 'community' filled with people who describe computer-related things with terms like this? Please refrain from using 'ecosystem', 'community', 'orthogonal', 'affinity', etc.
Using terms like this does not make you appear intelligent. It just makes you appear like someone who wants to appear intelligent.
If I want to read fancy words I'll go read some Hawthorn or something (did the Hawthorn reference make me seem smart?).
I do not work for JBoss.
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Message #123873
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
ecosystem? ecosystem?Why is the developer 'community' filled with people who describe computer-related things with terms like this? Please refrain from using 'ecosystem', 'community', 'orthogonal', 'affinity', etc.Using terms like this does not make you appear intelligent. It just makes you appear like someone who wants to appear intelligent.If I want to read fancy words I'll go read some Hawthorn or something (did the Hawthorn reference make me seem smart?).I do not work for JBoss. If you were refering to Nathaniel Hawthorne then spelling his name wrong twice probably doesn't. :)
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Message #123875
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
Please disable/delete my account with theserverside. Thanks.
Take care,
Steve
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Message #123877
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Ego problems on both sides?
It sounds like there are ego problems on both sides and thats where the real problem lies. Personally, I couldn't care less about the "anonymous" or "not so anonymous" postings. I only read posts with a grain of salt, and I make all of my decisions (as I'm sure most people do) by using and evaluating certain products. This sounds a lot like the whole java/.net, linux/ms mines better than yours argument. DOH!!! Now both of you go to your rooms and don't come out until you can be friends again. HA
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Message #123878
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Astroturfing: banned or not?
Whatever. I'm going to the bank. Marc, I'm curious, what part of the following didn't you get:To do so, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard. Our visibility and success puts our customers and partners in a situation where you expect and demand that employees of JBoss Inc. hold themselves to that higher standard. Let's put the professional back in professional open source. "Astroturfing" is hereby banned at JBoss, starting with me. Is it, or is it not banned?
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Message #123879
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I just wonder...
As a community, one would expect TSS (and TMC) to be as neutral as possible! Difficult to approve of Mike's stand (ofcourse, not that he should care!) nor approve of TSS's public announcement today.
TSS did the right thing last week by announcing its utility to track anonymous posts. As a community, that is the best and the right thing to do. Surely witch hunting (even if "witches" proven to exist) is not appropriate for a community mediator. But that correct approach last week has been more than negated by the public action from TSS today. Even if it were to sever the ties, it need not be made public. If there were a few individuals that were affected by a percieved inaction from TMC last week, they alone could have been notified of this action; rather than wash the dirt linen in public.
(More (a trifle critical) views on my blog)
Cheers,
Ramesh
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Message #123884
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Astroturfing: banned or not?
I'm not Marc Fleury. Get off the poor guy's case. Ask the TSS guys to forward my personal info. You'll see.
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Message #123887
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I just wonder...
When is all the wagging of tongues going to stop? Isn't this detracting from doing something worthwhile? ...said Joseph, as he wagged his tongue.
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Message #123888
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Unprofessional, yes in a way, but...
The professional way of spreading misinformation, propaganda and FUD is to anonymously commission a study with an 'independent' research organisation and wait for TMC staff to post it here on the front page. Or even better to fund the enemies of one's enemies through opaque financial channels. That's how the big guys do it. Come on JBoss, now that you have a little venture capital, why not upgrade to a more professional style of misconduct? And TMC should probably think about cutting the ties to all companies that misbehave in any of the above mentioned ways. You can still do business with Apache :-)
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Message #123891
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Unprofessional, yes in a way, but...
Is it me, or do I hear lots of laughter coming from redmond?
All this is so ugly for the entire Java community. All of this. Everyone here should be ashamed, fighting like kids, all this name calling. I am somewhat guilty myself too, after debating so much with Rolf and all.
Grow up and be professional. And ethical, above everything. All this have tainted more people and companies in more ways than we can imagine. Shame.
Call me naive, but I really expected that highly technical people could deal in better ways with personal problems, given that we deal with great technical problems everyday, these childish fights should be regarded as secondary. But I seem to be wrong, and personal problems may be even harder than tech ones. At least we can not just press "ctrl-alt-del" and reboot a lost friendship.
Henrique Steckelberg
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Message #123897
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Unprofessional, yes in a way, but...
Call me naive, but I really expected that highly technical people could deal in better ways with personal problems, given that we deal with great technical problems everyday, these childish fights should be regarded as secondary. I take it you've never used usenet? Or IRC? :-)
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Message #123898
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professional and reasonable
What have I got to do with it? It is not my fault that Java "community" (excuse me Satoris) always overreact and have extreme viewpoints in everything, never can to calm to reason logic or common sense, never have some sense of proportions. Talk about storm in a glas of water! Calm down and soon you can have a long and relaxing talk about persistence again that will put balsam on your souls.
In the meantime, if you want intelligent talk, if you want common sense, if you want to see how reasonable people behave, take a look at this log about how MS look at UML.
http://blogs.msdn.com/keith_short/archive/2004/04/16/114960.aspx
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #123899
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professional and reasonable
As you well know, most Java developers have HUGE egos. That's why they tend to overcomplicate their code and debate trivial matters endlessly.
Once again, Rolf is the voice of reason!
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Message #123911
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
Who needs JBoss anyway ? Use Spring and a servlet engine is enough. If you really need a full J2EE server choose one from a professional vendor like BEA. The price for the server should be the smallest part in projects where everything is really distributed.
I've banned JBoss a long time ago reading some of marcf's comments in public forums (using his real name).
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Message #123912
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Please, calm down
I've been "out of business" for the last two or three months, and when I come back here... I find all this mess.
Please, calm down.
I belive that this stuff goes not just against JBoss or TSS/TMC, but against the whole OpenSource and Java communities.
Having at least two players in the field makes both improve, innovate, invent.
Where do you want to go?
Many years ago, I read a book from Stephen King, one wrote as "Richard Bachman", one of those truly written by him: Thinner. This book contains an important message: "When there's a problem, every one involved is guilty to some extent".
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Message #123917
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JBOSS = Controversy
Be it with SUn or be it just creating big fuss in the market or be with not accepting the fact that there are other open source projects managed better than jboss. Anytime I read anything related with JBOSs, its mostly some problem.
STOP USING JBOSS.
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Message #123920
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JBoss = Good Tech
People would be well served to ignore the idiots in this debate and focus on the technology...JBoss is good tech and there are several intriguing new projects at hand. That is the worst part of this sordid episode...it gives all those who just don't like the people who write it a chance to bash the neat software they have delivered. And, by the way, it's free. I can put up with a lot more flame wars with that in mind!
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Message #123922
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Balance indeed
As a company that stewards communities and performs research, we must balance the needs of vendors and individuals who make up the ecosystem we serve. I'm not a JBoss user, don't plan on becoming one, and don't particularly give a damn about any of this. But it should be pointed out that it wasn't that long ago that you guys released your bogus .Net vs. J2EE benchmark study. Sun could have publicly condemned TMC/TheServerSide during the Petstore debacle and they refrained. I doubt your termination of business ties with JBoss is going to affect JBoss much, but Petstore certainly didn't help Java, or the "community" that depends on Java for our livelihood, since it became a selling point for .Net.
The important thing is that people forgave you and moved on, in fact some people who have congratulated you above were howling for your heads at the time.
Yes, all this fake posting stuff is stupid, but jeez -- move on, this isn't kindegarten. If JBoss is really that unprofessional, they'll be out of business soon enough with or without your blessing.
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Message #123924
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
I just wanted to say kudos to TSS for standing up to JBoss. This is a pretty crappy way to do business and I'm glad TSS did the right thing, finally.
I hope Mike Spille comes back as well. Cheers
--Vinny
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Message #123928
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"Reality is what is left when you stop believe in it"
Hmm.. it do seems that TSS members have a problem with reality.
"Your bogus .Net vs. J2EE benchmark study."
Sorry buddy, it was/is not a bogus report.
The "Big Java App Server" is much slower than .NET/C#, especially with EJB, you must find some other way to question TSS credibility.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #123930
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Re: Unprofessional, yes in a way, but...
Call me naive, but I really expected that highly technical people could deal in better ways with personal problems, given that we deal with great technical problems everyday, these childish fights should be regarded as secondary. I take it you've never used usenet? Or IRC? :-)
Or most blogs, for that matter ...
In case anyone wonders why I personally don't participate very much in the theoretical "communities" around Java (outside of trying to support the communities around the software that *I* care about, which tend to avoid this kind of behavior because I stomp on it whenever possible), it's precisely because of the polarization of attitudes that has become the currency of the day. Technology "foo" either rocks or sucks, with no middle ground. No consideration of whether the particular use case matters. No understanding that it's actually possible (gasp!) for more than one approach to have some reasonable, or even brilliant, ideas. It has to be all or nothing.
Black and white (or, to be PC in modern US parlance, red and blue :-) viewpoints are way too simplistic to describe the real world. Yet, way too many of the public statements you read -- even the non-anonymous and non-hidden-identity
ones :-) -- represent a childishly simplistic viewpoint of the world.
Call me when there is a community that wants to have mature discussions of strategies, tradeoffs, and tactics. Call me when you can appreciate the brilliance of other designs, even if they are different than your own (or your own favorite). Call me when you want to discuss the engineering realities that you have to balance features versus bugs versus delivery dates. Call me when you want to address the needs of users who are not allowed (for whatever reason) to pick and choose which "cutting edge" open source projects they get to use, but need to get the most out of whatever they have.
But I'm not planning on leaving my phone turned on 24x7 ... I don't expect much in the way of positive response any more. There was a day that www.theserverside.com did not suffer from being an intellectual wasteland like javalobby.org (I guess it serves its own purposes, but it doesn't help me much with mine) ... can we have that day back, please?
Craig McClanahan
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Message #123932
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Re: Unprofessional, yes in a way, but...
You may be right in general, but on the other hand, this particular debate wasn't about any technology at all. It was about posting under bogus identities as a corporate strategy. I for one don't have a problem with this kind of soap opera and it doesn't shake my confidence in people as much as some seemingly rational technical debates do.
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Message #123933
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Re: Unprofessional, yes in a way, but...
I have followed the discussions on TSS the recent weeks and with sadness watched the polemics grow harder and harder. At one point I was just about to submit some really strong words about this, but I stopped myself in the last minute and submitted this instead, at a later stage:
http://theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=25465#119411
Now, that one of those I respect the most in the Java industry explains that his lack of participation is mainly due to these problems, I can no longer keep my keys unpressed.
I totally agree that the current tone in most discussions is unacceptable. Either talented front figures that express strong and narrow opinions that leave no room for a second opinion (often, read: product/framework), or "no-namers" that drops negative one-liners, often containing the words: "suck", "troll", "stupid" or other words that you in some countries could get sued for uttering to a fellow citizen. In the first case, it's a battle of egos and/or products, in the latter, it's a matter of degeneration into something far worse.
Hopefully, most of us agree that the second case is a behaviour that should be condemned in this kind of forum/community. I guess the former is more tricky. Everyone has a right to speak his/her opinion as long as it is not a harassment to other (groups of) individuals and once you put a lot of time and energy and time into something, it becomes a part of you as a person, and you go to great lengths to defend your opinion. And that's fine, as long as you are willing to listen to what other people have to say and realize that the main reason why we are all here in the first place is to learn from each other. Right? Well, maybe not, and I think that's one of the main reasons to all this hostile attitude...
As I wrote here:
http://theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=26141#123615
I think the state of Java right now is that we are going through a (painful) transistion from a clearly-defined spec (EJB 2.0 and contemporary API versions) that everyone was striving to implement. Then, the boom of Open Source, Microsoft's simpler vision, the complexity and heaviness of EJB in particular, and the cost of application servers in a time of economic recession, respectively, opened up the market for open source products, leightweight containers and frameworks.
Now, we have a number of competing frameworks for persistence, object life cycle, layering, coupling, testing and so forth, where their respective proponents see a possibility to gain momentum and market share and thus (finally getting to the point), tend to go to greater and greater lengths to promote their way of thinking, and in the end their product/component/framework/container. All this leading to discussions like: "Setter-based injection sucks and construction-based injection rules" (or the other way around). It's like two three-year olds fighting in their sand-box (again, no pun intended ;), because Freddie thinks his father is stronger that Danny's.
I truly believe in democracy, don't believe otherwise, but there will always be a point in history, right after the dictator/ruler/prime minister/J2EE/EJB steps down and no successor is appointed, that there will be a time of great flux, uncertainty and commotion. I think that time is now.
However, I also believe that there is one more important reason for all these all-or-nothing, my-way-or-the-highway opinions and the reoccuring outright offensive behaviour. And that is anomymosity (is that the right noun? :). Sure, I think it was Mike Spille (or was it Cameron Purdy...?) who took the example of one person anomyously revealing the current American president's shady affairs and thus, motivating anonymosity. I agree with this to the extent that in certain cases, hiding one's identity can be motivated, but the example brought forth more translates to me sending a mail from my HotMail account kingofthehill123@hotmail.com (fictive) to reveal astroturfing rather than hiding my identify from, or worse: faking my identity against, my fellow online colleagues.
So why do I think hiding your identity is bad? Well, for the same reason I think that most of the things that are bad on the Internet can be contributed to anonymosity. Several social studies have shown that people behave very differently when not revealing their identity and even more so when pretending to be someone else. Granted, this has also led to good things like shy people coming out of their shell and finding friends and a partner, but in a forum where great minds and egos ;) are discussing advanced topics related to work they have dedicated their life to, my strong belief is that anonymosity is not motivated and even more so, a strong contributor to the vicious climate that currently seems to prevail on TSS.
Wrapping it up, I wish that each one of us could realize the reason for our behaviour and in doing that, try to treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves (no mean to sound biblical ;). Also, I think their is a need for a forum for people who, like Mr McClanahan, has great ideas and are willing to share them without pride and prejudice and who realize that silver bullets only belong in Hollywood productions.
Now I have wasted over an hour on this (instead of helping my girlfriend with the laundry =:-O), but I think it was time well spent. Hopefully, this will start something good instead of another flame war...
Peace
Par Eklund
Middleman
par@middleman
+46-706-642692
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Message #123934
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Re: Unprofessional, yes in a way, but...
And to complete my case against anonymosity, append ".se" to my stated, incomplete mail address. ;)
/Par
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Message #123935
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just wondering
Mr.Eklund:
"I totally agree that the current tone in most discussions is unacceptable"
"no-namers" that drops negative one-liners"
"a behaviour that should be condemned in this kind of forum"
"as long as you are willing to listen to what other people have to say"
"try to treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves"
And so on and so on..
Is that the reason why you wrote:
"While Mr Gates & Co are collecting their ever incresing pay cheques at the bank"?
Just wondering.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #123937
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just wondering
Hello Rolf,
I'm not sure what you are really asking, but my post is not a part of the Microsoft vs. Java debate. I am a softrware architect and see merits in either camp, and I just wish I was as proficient in the former's technologies as in the latter's.
The reason I wrote the sentence about Mr Gates & Co collecting their pay cheques was consciously in a slightly less objective tone and more addressed to those who focus on the polemics and not the real life issues. :)
Regards/MVH
Par
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Message #123938
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just wondering
have a long and relaxing talk about persistence again that will put balsam on your souls. Rofl++
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Message #123939
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Umm
Yes, Marc is a well known time traveler. He has transported himself back to 2003 to write his new Astroturfs.
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Message #123944
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just wondering
Hi again, Rolf. Had to leave in a rush previously.
Just wanted to add that, even though I'm more emotionally attached to Java then MS/.Net, I also believe that the .Net community in general is more "well-behaved", where discussions are more fueled by the actual end result and pragmatism than by having the last word on everything. A previous post on TSS.com's sister site supports this notion as well:
(From tss.net, linked to:) http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/1330
Also, just to clarify even more, and even though I don't fancy the MS marketing machine or their corresponding misuse of their de facto desktop monopoly, I would say that collecting an ever-increasing pay-cheque at the bank is time much more well spent than being rude to and miscrediting colleagues (anonymously or not) because their viewpoint is slightly different. :-\
Regards
Par
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Message #123948
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a mob == infinite stupidity
Hi Pär,
Come to think of it I don't mind so much rude behavior (it can be fun some time) if only people could think independently. When you have 1000 persons howling the same opinion you can be certain of one thing,
They are always dead wrong.
It is the same with TV commercials. You don't mind to see it the first time even if it is ridiculous but it is the repetition(s) that kills you.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #123950
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a mob == infinite stupidity
True. Mob behaviour can also easily be identified by strong negative opinions without any (intelligent) explanation. Either way, we all would be better off it would be conducted elsewhere. As for being rude in this kind of forum, I agree that it can be amusing to a certain extent, but given only letters and a few smileys to convey your exact meaning, vs. eye contact and facial expression IRL, it's a fine line to tread and when done wrong, it's a certain way of ending an otherwise interesting and productive discussion...
As for the original specific topic, I agree that Marc Fleury stepped well over the line (see: http://www.sys-con.com/story/feedback.cfm?storyid=44945), but also that I would not be surprised if JBoss isn't the only company having "astroturfed". Not that it makes it a whole lot better if so, but I would encourage those who condemn Marc Fleury to the pits of hell, to check themselves for their own s**t in general and to think about the possibility of this as a more widespread phenomenon in particular, and try to think of ways to prevent this from reoccuring. I would say that the last week's events does not only put JBoss's credibility on the line, but the whole industry's.
Cheers
/Par
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Message #123951
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Deep inside Microsoft
I bet deep inside Microsot the designers and engineers are having heated arguments with some very childish behaviors. I have seen this in other large organizations. By the time something makes it to MS Blog (tm), it's party line and the only people left to "discuss" it are looking for favours of the court.
The difference here is that it is the open software community, which Microsoft (and other companies) are trying to understand and leverage without giving away control.
Along with all the other points people are making, which are all valid (de facto standards, etc).
Anyway, along with all the bad there is some greatness in this, with a new phenomenom of open discussion about multiparty methods. And I am a firm believer in the value of anonymous posts and trolls (though there should be an option to filter them out) - too much reputation creates an expert-only system where novices don't dare ask questions (and naive or critical questions sometimes need to be asked - a nice writeup about some of this is at http://in.anyarchitect.org/book/view/18).
It's only when the players don't figure out how to act constructively after making mistakes that things get ugly.
David
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Message #123952
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a mob == infinite stupidity
Hi Pär,Come to think of it I don't mind so much rude behavior (it can be fun some time) if only people could think independently. When you have 1000 persons howling the same opinion you can be certain of one thing, They are always dead wrong. It is seductive to think that way. And I guess most people sometimes give in to this thought. Nevertheless, I strongly believe it is wrong. In the end, there's no other way of forming an opinion than to make a judgement primarily based on arguments and experience, not on going with or against the majority. Of course, sometimes there will be a need to delegate judgement to somebody who knows more than yourself. But in this case you have to make an even more careful judgement as to whom to delegate to.
And before I'm now returning to more serious work, let me tell you about an observation that I have made: There is not one mob. There are at least three relevant mobs in the software business. Each has it's strongly held beliefs, each has it's share of bigots, and each has those members who like to post provocative statements in the opposite camp's fora to enjoy the feeling of standing up against the 'dumb majority'.
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Message #123954
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a mob == infinite stupidity
You are confusing "camps" with "mobs". If we take the 3 "camps" Microsoft, Java and Open Source, at least one of those can not be accused of being a highly emotional moral indignation and self-righteousness mob.
Yesterday MS, today JBoss, tomorrow maybe you or me.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #123957
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a mob == infinite stupidity
I have to do init -6 now. Heading for Samos, Greece tomorrow morning. Hopefully, you guys haven't ripped off each other's throats when I get back after a week in the sun. ;)
/Par
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Message #123958
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a mob == infinite stupidity
You are confusing "camps" with "mobs". If we take the 3 "camps" Microsoft, Java and Open Source, at least one of those can not be accused of being a highly emotional moral indignation and self-righteousness mob. All these camps turn in to mobs or otherwise abuse their power from time to time, if in very different ways. Just as they cheat in very different ways. It's the logical consequence of hugely different structures and means. I have experienced this myself from various directions including Microsoft trying to actively discredit Java proponents before their superiors in a company I worked for in the past.Yesterday MS, today JBoss, tomorrow maybe you or me.RegardsRolf Tollerud I happen to see a significant difference between actions against individuals and actions against multinational corporations.
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Message #123959
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a mob == infinite stupidity
"Microsoft trying to actively discredit Java proponents"
Even if what you are saying is true what has that to do with the subject?
I recommend "One feather turns into five hens"
by Hans Christian Andersen
After we can talk.
Have a nice weekend.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #123961
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Re: Unprofessional, yes in a way, but...
Well said, sir.
Too bad nobody seems to be listening.
Brian Neal
BEA Systems
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Message #123964
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a mob == infinite stupidity
"Microsoft trying to actively discredit Java proponents" Even if what you are saying is true what has that to do with the subject? What I'm saying is that the mob like behaviour you are critisising is just one way of abusing power and naturally it's not the one preferred by big corporations. They have other ways of discrediting their opponents personally and I wouldn't say that one is necessarily better or worse than the other. My own experience was just an example, it's not important because no damage was done. It was a single encounter with a single Microsoft representative who most probably did not enact a corporate strategy but nor is the behaviour of some Java or open source advocates a concerted conspiracy aimed at personally discrediting their opponents. Therefore I don't take all of this too seriously. There is no mob roaming the streets, killing people with with long noses. It's just a little soap opera where participation is utterly voluntary.
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Message #123967
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IBM
WebSphere only costs $10k or whatever per CPU if you don't get it as part of a bundle. Users of certain platforms get WebSphere Express for free.
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Message #123968
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No defense warranted...
JBoss set itself up as a lightning rod for criticism. When someone seeks to place themselves on a high pedestal and generally speak in self-congratulatory or bragadocious terms, while simultaneously running down critics, the reaction when those standards are not met is going to be more pointed. That's not a way to build good will within the community.
BEA and IBM at least act professionally, and so criticism of those products is going to be limited to the objective merits. BEA and IBM compete in a way that is more technically honest. That's respectable.
If JBoss would live up to its new "Professional Open Source" tagline, it may eventually win back some of the ill will lost.
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Message #123970
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Yes, it was bogus
Seeing as how you're not willing to question the methodology of a report (providing the results favor .net), I don't think the Java community is alone in having a problem with reality.
For example, if the vendor for solution A gets to work with the benchmarking personnel for months, the vendor for solution B should get to work with the benchmarking personnel for months. If, for some reason, vendor B declines, then either vendor A should not get the same benefit, or the study should be cancelled. To have a scientifically valid test, the solutions should either both be configured by experts, or they should both be configured by laymen.
For another example, when solution A has a bunch of business logic in stored procedures, then the architecture of solution B should use the SAME stored procedures, because otherwise you haven't properly isolated your control groups.
Those particular flaws are fatal to the methodology and are so pervasive in the testing that the results can't be proven valid. The study, in the end, wasn't about Big Java App Server against .net/C#. It was about badly architectured Java solution on a big Java App Server versus a better architectured .net solution running on Windows. Even though the result was in .net's favor, you should question it right alongside everyone else, because the methodologies called into question .net's "victory".
I would think you'd want .net to win an honest comparison.
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Message #123973
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TSS next victim?
Even if you bend over backwards, you are never going to have a Big Java App Server with EJBs win over KISS C# solution you must be kidding, whom are you trying to convince?
Instead of constantly accusing TSS and do everything to discredit them why don't you thank them instead because it is a good possibility that without this tests you would not have Spring/Tapestry/Webwork and all the similar lightweight frameworks* that makes rings round the commercial app servers.
(*I hasten to add "together with "Tomcat/Resin" otherwise soon a bunch of "intellectuals" that never have learn to read between the lines or ever credit their opponents with one gram of intelligence will crucify me.)
"if vendor B declines"
Ha ha. You know very well that all Java Server vendors always refuse all tests with Microsoft and that Sun forbids "SPECjAppServer" or whatever the name of the week is to be used in non-java comparisons.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #123975
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What JBoss employees did is not ..
... 'anonymous posting'. TSS does not allow 'anonymous posting'. Sam, kindly try to understand the difference between posting as anonymous, and posting under fake identities.
Sam> I never bother to take opionions of anonymous posters ... and
Sam> I am not sure why TMC is making this a big deal.
[..]
Sam> TMC: Just disallow anonymous posting and move on....
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Message #123980
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BEA and professionalism
This is a fact. I saw it, and I'd love to hear a BEA representative comment on this:
A year and a half ago BEA was sending to various organizations using JBoss a FUD document. In the document BEA warned that anyone using JBoss should fear losing their intellectual property. BEA claimed using JBoss is risky due to legal issues. I found this amazing because Weblogic is filled with open source-ant, log4j, struts, etc. Yes, nothing in the document was untrue. As with any software used, one should be aware of legal ramifications. But it was extremely misleading and had I been an executive with no intimate knowledge of GPL, LGPL, Apache etc., I would have been very worried about using JBoss due to it being open source.
So anyone claiming BEA takes the high ground morally is full of it.
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Message #123986
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things not entirely rosy in the MS camp either
"While Mr Gates & Co are collecting their ever increasing pay cheques at the bank" MS has had to resort to cutting back employee benefits package, and also has reduced employee discount of stock purchases from 15% to 10% in order to lessen dilution of their shareholders' equity.
So if Mr. Gates is taking "increasing" pay checks to bank, is doing it on the backs of the employees. MS made position clear - the billions in the bank belong to shareholders and will not be touched for the sake of keeping MS employees at parity with current the compensation package. So employee compensation is being brought into alignment with current and expected longer term revenue levels.
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Message #123988
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KISS C# doesn't fill the bill
Even if you bend over backwards, you are never going to have a Big Java App Server with EJBs win over KISS C# solution you must be kidding, whom are you trying to convince? I did some server-side stuff with the ASP.NET/C# approach but I've since ditched .NET completely for server-side development. Instead I now use Tibco JMS/JBoss/JAXB/Hibernate - along with ant, log4j, etc. The Java assembly of technologies has been much more capable and impressive than the ASP.NET approach - which was too anemic for needs (or else would be forced to waste time devising mechanisms that simply are not accommodated natively in ASP.NET architecture).
JBoss has been particularly facile as a solution in this regard due to its forward thinking JMX/XMBean architecture - coupled with the ease of development via the JBoss approach to aspect-oriented development. MBeans basically turn the app server into a very open ended system where can be used to address programming situations that are not possible to tackle under J2EE/EJB strictures. AOP makes these mechanisms quick and easy to churn out - eliminating much tedious boiler plate programming.
Sometimes KISS is simply too simple and too stupid to be viable. That has been the case with ASP.NET for the type of industrial-oriented distributed development that is dealt with in my company's IT operations. And it's not just ASP.NET that is deficient. Neither WebSphere or WebLogic are at all suitable for this. Frankly, JBoss has shined because of its innovative departures from conventional J2EE/EJB confines. It is simply a much more versatile and productive development platform. I doubt that I'm the only one that has had this realization about JBoss relative to other candidate alternatives.
As to the tousle going on between JBoss and TMC, and the partisan alignment of sides that has arisen, well I have to keep a pragmatic focus. Good technologies that solve my problems well are what matter by far the most. So when I read some anti-JBoss sentiment that urges "Stop using JBoss!", what is my reaction to that? "Yeah right!" with heavily laden sarcasm. Like I would seriously consider jeopardizing my livelihood by stooping to using less suitable alternatives because a group of people are engaged in a spat with each other? I guess if I was fifteen years younger I might get swept up in that kind of thing, but these days I'm tightly focused on what is going to please my management and pad my compensation with a nice bonus at review time. I'm just blessed that I work under a management where I have the latitude to pick and choose what I consider the best technologies to solve the problems. Hence I've been free to adopt Java-based solutions wherever I see fit. But hey, if ASP.NET were capable of netting me that nice bonus at review time, I'd be using it instead. I'm probably not unique in that regard. So folks - stay focused on business, on customers, on innovation.
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Message #123989
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Mike Spille, please come back....
It is my hope that Mike Spille will return to the TSS community. +1
Mike come back. If not I'll keep posting lousy notes on your blog and finally you'll have to get back :-)
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Message #123990
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KISS C# doesn't fill the bill
If that is your thing, just keep on doing it. An independent opinion backup up by profound experience and practice, should always be taken seriously.
I always respect a true professional.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #123993
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KISS C# doesn't fill the bill
Einstein simplicity principle applies here...(paraphrasing)boil a problem (space) down to its most simple basis, but no simpler.
The best thing about JBoss is that its microkernel architecture allows it to address complex problems simply...let's not lose this fact in this sordid episode.
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Message #123998
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Microsoft revisited?
I usually enjoy reading other peoples postings on most issues on TSS, be it crazy flames or constructive discussions. This whole mess here and many responses leave me with one question: What is now the difference between M$ and us, the self-righteous Java/J2EE/Open Source community fans? Seems like we have started to dig our own grave here using arguments and statemets usually used against big Bill and his products. I'm not defending JBoss (or clown-Marc), or TSS for that matter - personally I use both to keep up with what should be "exiting new stuff"...
Guys, the docusoaps on TV are beginnig to become a tempting alternative to this crap going on. Ricki Lake: save us!!
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Message #124001
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Just Sit Back and let Relaity Wash Over You
We need not find any ways of questioning TSS's credibility when they do so fine a job themselves. You appear to the only person that thinks that study was not bougus, inclusing TMC themselves:
The Middleware Company (TMC) has published a letter in which they admit many of the problems raised with the Petstore benchmark and suggesting that people not draw conclusions about how J2EE verses .NET compares yet. TMC is requesting community feedback about whether a second test should be performed, and how it should be performed. -- Floyd Marinescu
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Message #124003
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
How do I put a thread and the thread starter on ignore?
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Message #124006
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Mike Spille, please do NOT come back...
It is my hope that Mike Spille will return to the TSS community. -1 Mike Spille please STAY away. Perhaps once this thread has died down we will have less pointless flame wars without you adding fuel.
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Message #124007
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TSS next victim?
"Even if you bend over backwards, you are never going to have a Big Java App Server with EJBs win over KISS C# solution you must be kidding, whom are you trying to convince?"
See, this is an example of your closed-mindedness. Re-read the post you responded to. Did I say EJBs were good architecture that should run rings around C#? No. Your bias made that presumption for you. I'm not trying to convince anyone that EJBs are a technology that would win over C#.
My hunch is that a well-designed and implemented Java system and a well-designed and implemented .net system will be comparable in performance, but I haven't seen a study yet that compares both platforms at their best.
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Message #124008
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BEA and professionalism
You read too much into what I said. There's a difference between personal attacks behind the safety of anonymity and FUD with your name on it. With respect to how they conduct themselves in the marketplace, IBM and BEA operate in a way that is more honest. I didn't say they were angels.
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Message #124010
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This is why are you blocking some news about Apache success?
Quoting:
"We will continue news coverage and editorial in a neutral manner on technology, events and vendors."
Last year a friend of mine in the Apache Cocoon user mail list, told me TSS is a good Java forum that I need to follow. And I did it. Since last month, I stoped to lurking and started to send news about releases and articles related to Apache technology at the server side. No one of them was published! I wondered why and I really started to think TSS hidden for internal affars that there exists other projects that are not related to JBoss. Particulary I remember 2 of them:
An article about Apache OJB
An article about Apache Forrest and Apache Cocoon.
All the 3 above mentioned projects are interesting for the true server side technology!
Since that, I never posted any again nothing. And now after reading this news I understand why it happens. The question is:
Is a worth to continue providing news feed to TSS? TSS will post them from now?
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Message #124048
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This is why are you blocking some news about Apache success?
Quoting:"We will continue news coverage and editorial in a neutral manner on technology, events and vendors."Last year a friend of mine in the Apache Cocoon user mail list, told me TSS is a good Java forum that I need to follow. And I did it. Since last month, I stoped to lurking and started to send news about releases and articles related to Apache technology at the server side. No one of them was published! I wondered why and I really started to think TSS hidden for internal affars that there exists other projects that are not related to JBoss. Particulary I remember 2 of them:An article about Apache OJBAn article about Apache Forrest and Apache Cocoon.All the 3 above mentioned projects are interesting for the true server side technology!Since that, I never posted any again nothing. And now after reading this news I understand why it happens. The question is:Is a worth to continue providing news feed to TSS? TSS will post them from now? There's an article about Cocoon on the front page at the top right now... Maybe they just didn't like your articles?
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Message #124074
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Bad Behavior
I must say that this pointless feud make me sad. First of all between two arguing parties that are using dirty tricks to pinprick each other can’t be right one and a wrong one. When discussion is reduced to ‘you are an idiot’, ‘no, you are an idiot’ both parties are guilty and behaving like children.
I thought by now people should have realized that criticism of anyone’s technical opinion does not constitute a personal attack. We all hold our own technical expertise in the highest regard. What happened to humble?
I do not care if JBoss employees used anonymous accounts to praise JBoss and trash everyone else. I consider it to be counter productive, since any loud voice ‘praising’ or ‘bashing’ arouses suspicion, skepticism and incredulity. I would never make a decision on any software based on what anyone is saying, especially in this manner, without first hand knowledge. If my experience with JBoss is great, then I will use it, otherwise I will put it were bad software belongs and no loud mouth is going to convince me otherwise. If TSS regards behavior of JBoss employees questionable, it should disallow anonymous postings or enact any other rules it chooses. If JBoss employees or anyone else do not like it they are free to exercise their freedom of choice and ignore TSS altogether.
Sergey L. Sundukovskiy
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Message #124096
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This is why are you blocking some news about Apache success?
TSS release the article right after my post. I am glad they did it.
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Message #124103
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This is why are you blocking some news about Apache success?
Hi Antonio -
I don't think anyone here got your emails. If you see good news, please go to http://www.theserverside.com/news/post.tss and put it up there.
We are definitely very interested in Apache technology, and if you do a search on the site you will see that we have a lot of news and articles.
Cheers,
Dion
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Message #124152
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Bad Behavior
Sergey: I do not care if JBoss employees used anonymous accounts to praise JBoss and trash everyone else. I consider it to be counter productive, since any loud voice ‘praising’ or ‘bashing’ arouses suspicion, skepticism and incredulity.
Good for you .. but what about the other 99 out of 100 people that weren't born with a talent for divination?
Sergey: If TSS regards behavior of JBoss employees questionable, it should disallow anonymous postings or enact any other rules it chooses. If JBoss employees or anyone else do not like it they are free to exercise their freedom of choice and ignore TSS altogether.
My understanding is that the origin of this thread (TMC/TSS breaking off business relationships with JBoss Inc. or vice-versa) was not a result of the JBoss employees' behavior on TSS, but rather how they chose to respond to it once the light of day was put onto that behavior. In other words, you're way off if you think that the anonymous posting was the cause of this.
As for why you don't know the details of what went on, I assume that you can chalk that up to the decency of TMC/TSS to not post the details in question.
As for calling it a "feud," that gives it way more credibility than it deserves. This is as cut & dry a situation as I've ever seen, and the "right" way forward out of the mess was both obvious and clear .. it's a shame that JBoss Inc. is self-destructing instead of just coming clean.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #124156
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Bad Behavior
Give it a rest, Cameron, will you? You won. JBoss employees, and anyone who could ever be potentially mistaken for a JBoss employee, are marginalized from your community. And don't worry, Mike will be back in a day or two. You now have a smaller community that thinks a lot more like you do.
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Message #124161
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Bad Behavior
Pratheep: .. I cannot understand your venom also.
Could you please demonstrate an example of what you call "venom" in what I've said or written? I'm obviously missing something here.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #124165
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Bad Behavior
I was referring to the "divination" comment for a harmless point made by the Sergey.
Why are you doing this Cameron?
Why you are giving the impression you dislike JBOSS so much? I too condemn the behavior of JBOSS employees. But why are you and a few other bloggers are trying to beat them to death? Whats your real motive here? We tolerate even more unethical behavior from our politicians.
Partheep P
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Message #124175
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Bad Behavior
Pratheep: I was referring to the "divination" comment for a harmless point made by the Sergey.
Hmm .. that wasn't venom .. it was an attempt at humor. Next time I'll add a winking smiley.
What I was trying to say was this: While Sergey effectively discerns between content of use to him and "everything else" (let's call it "noise,") there are many other people (e.g. myself) who have not perfected it. Hence, I referred to his talent as divination ("the art or practice that seeks to .. discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers.")
Pratheep: Why you are giving the impression you dislike JBOSS so much? I too condemn the behavior of JBOSS employees.
Actually, that's just it -- what you said. I condemn the behavior, and I have tried to be very careful to separate out the topic of the behavior itself from all other (potentially personal) aspects.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #124183
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Bad Behavior
Well.
Looks like I wasn’t exactly in the good mood when I wrote that post. My apologies. Yes. I think you are right. But I have to admit I feel so sorry for the JBOSS employees for the stick they are getting even after indirectly admitting their guilt. I hope this issue does not affect their business too much. And of course they learnt their lesson.
Pratheep P
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Message #124187
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Bad Behaviour
Hi Pratheep
-1- And how is the "divination comment" venomous ? I can see how it can be construed as being sarcastic, but venomous ?
-2- Why is Cameron doing this ? Hmm, maybe because along with a few others he isn't afraid to stand up to a bunch of "astroturfers" who are quite venomous themselves in slinging mud at JBoss critics. And who isn't dumb enough to be taken in by spin and PR-speak. Jeez, I am surprised that there aren't more people who are doing this !
-3- You are unexpectedly close to the truth when you bring up the question of politicians' behaviour. The spin from the JBoss camp has been so much like a bad parody of politician speak, it's not even funny any more :-(
I believe a simple clarification in clear language from MarcF would have gone a long way in clearing the air - it's a shame that he and some other JBoss Inc. employees chose spin and PR-speak instead...
Satish
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Message #124190
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Bad Behaviour
Sigh - my first post on TSS, and it had to be something where I jumped the gun.
While I can understand that people are getting sick of this whole thing, and some are even starting to feel sympathetic towards JBoss employees, you only have to read the comments on the more prominent blogs to see they continue to give back at least as good as they get.
I believe the points I raised in my last post are still valid though...
Satish
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Message #124217
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Bad Behaviour
!-3- You are unexpectedly close to the truth when you bring up the question of politicians' behaviour. The spin from the JBoss camp has been so much like a bad parody of politician speak, it's not even funny any more The difference being is that we expect this out of politicians. Not of out of those we expect to be of some value to technology/society/... .
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Message #124219
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technicians different from other people?
As soon as there is money and/or power involved you can expect this behavior from everybody including Nobel Prize winners and downward.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #124278
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technicians different from other people?
technicians different from other people? No, just politicians (and their ilk). Are they actually people? :)As soon as there is money and/or power involved you can expect this behavior from everybody including Nobel Prize winners and downward. I can expect the possibility. From the morally bankrupt - we can always expect it.
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Message #124291
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and then we have lawyers
Mark: No, just politicians (and their ilk). Are they actually people? :)
Ha ha, you got a point. It is always comforting to know that there is somebody that is even worse than you!
first person: "But he has white socks!"
second person: "But at least he doesn't have black and white shoes!"
Regards
ROlf Tollerud
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Message #128652
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
Why does this post not appear in "Older News"?
Maybe I am going blind or senile in my old age, but I cant seem to find this post listed on TSS.
I only got here via someone's blog....
-Nick
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Message #132713
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TMC Terminates Business with JBoss, Inc.
It is interesting to see Rickard, a major contributor to JBOSS, writing on this issue. Thanks Rickard. Your performance in coding competitions and as a BEA-recognised programmer were factors that steered me towards JBOSS in the first place. I feel a lot better about trusting TSS now.
I will be searching for a JBOSS Inc official release on this matter, but where I used to trust JBOSS claims and online posts about JBOSS without question, I suppose I have to grow up!
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