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News: The open source question debated at Java One

  1. The open source question debated at Java One (30 messages)

    Should we open source Java? What does open source Java mean? These are the main questions discussed at the forum at Java One. There was also discussion on Mono and how Java should compete on the Linux platform. They all urged people to participate.

    Introduction
    Should Java be open sourced? What would the verb "open-source" actually mean if it were? What would be lost, if anything, in terms of safeguarding the compatibility of Java, if Sun moved toward more of an open-source model? What innovation and energy might be lost to Java if it doesn't? These questions were asked and - in part - answered this morning, from multiple perspectives, at "The Big Question" keynote debate at Java One in San Francisco
    Is Java Bigger than Sun? - The Java Ecosystem Debates the Future of Java

    Threaded Messages (30)

  2. today?[ Go to top ]

    fully in tune with the "today is geek day" theme of the overall general
    > session this morning,

    Uhm, isn't everyday @ J1 "geek day"?
  3. today?[ Go to top ]

    If you filter all of the marketing crap that they feed you there, than it definitely is...
  4. today?[ Go to top ]

    This question has become an overrated topic from all the forums that i have visited. :(
  5. I think it can be great contribution for OSS, open source can become very strong with JAVA, but it sounds like a dream.
  6. Wouldn't open sourcing Sun's _implementation_ of Java, while keeping the _specification_ still done by JCP, plus making Java license more flexible in order to allow for innovations, additions and other changes solve much of the problem? This way there would be a guarantee of WORA (the specification and a TCK would be that guarantee), and anything else would be experimentation, and OS community would be able to fix and enhance Java implementation at will, feedbacking into the JCP and the next iteration of the specification. Could it work this way?

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  7. Why Set Java Free?[ Go to top ]

    Hello,

      for some insight why setting Java free will benefit you allow me to quote from the "Viva! - Open Source Java Strategy" section titled "Why Set Java Free?":

      * Because only free Java will lead to wide distribution and acceptance.
      * Because Sun's dominance is against the interest of the Java community at large.
      * Because only free Java allows non-standard speciality distributions that fill all niches.
      * Because only free Java can avoid forking and keep everybody working together.

      - Gerald

    -------------
    Gerald Bauer
    The Java Republic | http://viva.sourceforge.net/republic
  8. Why Set Java Free?[ Go to top ]

    I came to this debate with the hope to hear clear reasons why people want for Java to be Open Sourced so badly since I personaly don't know any.

    I was disapointed. Everything wich I have heard is general high level comments like "speed up inovation" and "promote wide acceptance".

    I personaly think that Java is very wide accepted and adopted including open source community now.

    I don't see what Sun does against "comunity at large"

    If somebody wants to do "special distributions that fill all niches" they can always do it, just don't call it java. Good example is Groovy.

    I am truly trying to understand what people who advocate Java open sourcing have in mind. I would really help if somebody would give me a concreate example what would be possible to do if Java were open sourced which cannot be done now.

    Alexi
  9. Why Set Java Free?[ Go to top ]

    I dont care if java it opensourced, i havent looked into it too much but what is really a pain in the ass is installing it on freebsd and i guess on alot of linux distros too.
    you have to go fetch several source code and patch files manualy to install from ports.

    from pkg-descr >>
    Please note that due to the current Sun licensing policy the resulting binaries
    can't be distributed and you are only permitted to use/hack it personally.
    Due to the same reasons you have to manually fetch the source code and patchset
    for FreeBSD.

    I know people that gave up on installing java on their machine because it gave them so many problems.. I know that its just a small issue and if you really want to install it you can but do they want every java user thinking that java is a pain in the ass every time you have to install it... or is it just me who's thinking that ;)
  10. I would really help if somebody would give me a concreate example what would be
    > possible to do if Java were open sourced which cannot be done now.

      Allow me to quote Tom Tromey:

     Sun invariably says that they can't think of what problems open source Java would solve that aren't already solved. Of course that's ridiculous. It is pretty hard for Linux vendors to ship a working JRE on their platform if they make any sort of changes at all -- the Java vendors are just too slow. And Debian can't ship a complete Java at all, so lots of Java software ends up in unfree.

    On top of this, non-free core software is something to be avoided in the community. This overly-controlled approach on Sun's part is losing the Linux desktop to .NET. I'm curious to hear what Sun has to say about this. Do they notice this? Do they care? Do they think there is some other strategy to change this?

      - Gerald

    -------------
    Gerald Bauer
    The Thinlet World | http://thinlet.blog-city.com
  11. Really, it would have been better to build a completely new system for Linux if you're not happy with Sun.

    But instead of coming up with something original and revolutionary, you're going to build a system around Microsoft's rapidly growing patent arsenal?!

    No wonder Sun doesn't seem to be doing anything; you seem to be doing it to yourselves? .... :-(
  12. > I would really help if somebody would give me a concreate example what would be > possible to do if Java were open sourced which cannot be done now.  Allow me to quote Tom Tromey: Sun invariably says that they can't think of what problems open source Java would solve that aren't already solved. Of course that's ridiculous. It is pretty hard for Linux vendors to ship a working JRE on their platform if they make any sort of changes at all -- the Java vendors are just too slow. And Debian can't ship a complete Java at all, so lots of Java software ends up in unfree.On top of this, non-free core software is something to be avoided in the community. This overly-controlled approach on Sun's part is losing the Linux desktop to .NET. I'm curious to hear what Sun has to say about this. Do they notice this? Do they care? Do they think there is some other strategy to change this?   - Gerald-------------Gerald BauerThe Thinlet World | http://thinlet.blog-city.com
    I dont think what you are making is a valid argument.
    For once, who needs java in their desktop? For masses, they dont care, neither they need to know anything about java. All they want to do is, go to some website, get their stuff done, and close the browser.
    And not many java-applets based website around now a days.(which were painfully slow even in a 512 MB RAM, 1 GH processor machines!).

    So, only techie people need java in their desktop. And always they know where to download it from, and how to install it. (If they dont know how to install java, then i guess, they must seriously consider some other profession).

    I have tried java with RedHat and Mandrake. There was no problem. Seems people are using with Suse as well. Dont know about Debian. But again, if you choose to use debian, you know there would be problems in getting popular software!

    Now, somebody tell me a valid argument to make java open source. What exactly the problem its going to solve? How its going to help java community?
  13. Too late for Java in corporate market as .NET is becoming the new standard and Java is retreating to the server side.

    Only winning strategy is to accept it and move on to the next fight.
    Without winning in desktop, Java will be replaced by J# (Open Source Java based on .NET design with CLR) in 10 years time.

    The Chinese market will define the new standard by lerverging J# on Linux desktop around Chinese JBoss Apps Server www.jboss.org.cn - A new standard is emerging.
  14. I thought that J# was dead already
  15. Java will be replaced by J# (Open Source Java based on .NET design with CLR) in 10 years time. The Chinese market will define the new standard by lerverging J# on Linux desktop around Chinese JBoss Apps Server www.jboss.org.cn - A new standard is emerging.
    :-)

    Er, no it won't, and no it won't. I think realistically, not everyone here expects to be using Java in 10 years time. Whatever they will be using tho, it won't be J#.
  16. Er, no it won't, and no it won't. I think realistically, not everyone here expects to be using Java in 10 years time. Whatever they will be using tho, it won't be J#.

    Well if I'm still programming in Java in a decade, something will have gone seriously wrong with the IT industry!

    In ten years we'll be using a new whizz-bang programming tool that won't have been invented by the open source movement, but will have about fifteen, slightly incompatible and incomplete open source copies.
  17. In ten years we'll be using a new whizz-bang programming tool that won't have been invented by the open source movement, but will have about fifteen, slightly incompatible and incomplete open source copies.

    This is pure FUD, and displays a thorough lack of knowledge about open-source. The only languages where open-source implementations are fragmented are those in which the pre-existing implementations were already hopelessly forked: Smalltalk and the Lisps, for example.

    With C compilers, open-source has proven far more fork-free than the proprietary world. There was the Cygnus fork of gcc, but the two versions were soon merged. Contrast with commercial C fragmentation. The open-source scripting languages have proven remarkably resilient from forking. Mono implements the whole of the ECMA spec for .NET; the only incompatibilities are in the parts MS didn't make open standards. Linux isn't POSIX-certified, but it's more POSIX-compatible than many OSes that are.

    Say what you will about the wisdom of open-sourcing Java. But offhand dismissal of open-source programming tools as fragmented and incomplete is way off the mark. Any honest perusal of history shows that, where standards exist and are publicly available, open-source projects make great effort to follow them and implement them completely.
  18. curious[ Go to top ]

    "Java will be replaced by J#"

    I though it was a joke until I realized you are the founder and chairman of
    Infortone.

    "Java has lost the Linux desktop to .NET"

    So you are planning Rich Clients in J# accessing JBoss on the server?
    Could you be a little more specific?

    Congratulations to the translation of JBoss to Chinese!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  19. Give unto caesar[ Go to top ]

    Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Give unto Sun what is Sun's. Bottom line, maybe its time to write a better VM and base it on open source standards instead of playing patsy to hardware and operating system vendors. (speaking only for myself as always)
  20. There's rather a good article on this over at the register here (by rather a good article I mean, of course, one that I agree with):

    Register Article
  21. My concern about open sourcing Java is how long will it take before vendors are offering their own custom-extensions to Java, making it more difficult to WORA?

    Many of the complaints I see are geared around Sun's licensing issues. Let's get Sun to address that first. Make Java can be freely distributable and get it in the in the hands of everyone without a lot of fuss and muss.

    My .02 worth.
  22. FORKING :-([ Go to top ]

    I say open it as far as it will go BUT without allowing FORKING.

    I want to write once, run anywhere.

    So all java must be compliant and all API changes must go through the JCP.
  23. FORKING :-([ Go to top ]

    That's the problem though. For the more vocal members of the open source movement, this is not enough.

    They want access to the source code AND permission to do whatever they want with it.
  24. FORKING :-([ Go to top ]

    Agreed, But that's openness going mad, i.e. look at the problems getting desktop integration between KDE and gnome. I DEMAND STABLE api's but via community process. With the following parameter..

    The JCP must not be TOO slow.
  25. FORKING :-([ Go to top ]

    Agreed, But that's openness going mad, i.e. look at the problems getting desktop integration between KDE and gnome. I DEMAND STABLE api's but via community process. With the following parameter..The JCP must not be TOO slow.
    I think the JCP in continually improving. And they're learning from open source where they can - the award for "most innovative JSR" at this year's JCP awards went to James Strachan for the Groovy JSR. Don't forget that Sun was also nervous in initially involving external JSR spec leads, and now that they have, it's worked out well for them - they have people of Doug Lea's caliber leading the specs for Sun. So I think the JCP is in a good position - it imposes a process whilst still being fairly open.
  26. Step by step[ Go to top ]

    I understand the legal issues and how and why compatibility is important for Sun. But I think regardless of these issues Sun can and should "open up" the platform. I don't mean "open source".

    For example I don't see any reason why Sun can't make the CVS servers of the core platform announymously accessible to people, after all the source code of JDK is already available! We could checkout their latest code, build it, make cvs patch files and submit them to their own employees. This would make it much easier to fix let's say Swing bugs. Also give cvs access to good committers. I'm sure with a review process in place Sun can review the IP and legal issues of submitted code quite easily.

    Or Sun could make its mailing lists for the core stuff public. Let the world see what Amy Fowler is thinking and saying and doing on Swing, and let people submit their suggestions to an email address in responce to things they now know from the public mailing lists. Just giving read-only access is a huge step!

    Open the damn black box! Make it more efficient!

    Ara.
  27. I don't know the exact formula in wich Java must be opensourced, but it's pretty clear that if Linux distributors start embedding Mono and Microsoft embbedes its own version of .Net in Windows it will take no many time for Java to vanish.

     I think 95% to 99% of Java knowledge can be directly translated to its clone .Net/C# so Java to .Net port can be extremnly fast.

     My advice to Sun: ¡¡¡Wake up!!!
  28. Java Culture has Problems[ Go to top ]

    I'm in favor of open-source Java. Probably all of the arguments that can possibly be made for and against have already been made, so I won't re-hash them. I will point out two major flaws I see in Java as a process and a culture.

    First, the Java standard is not truly "open". The agreements required to participate in the JCP, in some cases to even view the specs, essentially preclude work on open-source Java runtime implmentations. Kaffe and gcj have gone so slowly because they require painstaking backwards-engineering without documentation. That is to say, they're going so slowly because the developers are making concerted efforts to keep to the standard, but are denied the tools they need to do so. By contrast, work on Mono went quite quickly, since the ECMA standards were readily available.

    Second, I am disturbed by the indifference - even hostility - to small-scale and desktop-side Java exhibited on this thread. Really people, licensing issues aside, how can it be anything but good for the Java platform to extend itself wider and wider? Many of you seem prepared to cede every non-huge or non-server problem to C#/.Net; this is suicide. Many of today's small fries will grow into tomorrow's 800-pound gorillas, and there won't always be the budget or will to port them to J2EE. Commercial Lisp died because its proponents sneered at anything that wasn't rocket science. Java is in real danger of following in its path.
  29. Java Culture has Problems[ Go to top ]

    Second, I am disturbed by the indifference - even hostility - to small-scale and desktop-side Java exhibited on this thread. Really people, licensing issues aside, how can it be anything but good for the Java platform to extend itself wider and wider? Many of you seem prepared to cede every non-huge or non-server problem to C#/.Net; this is suicide. Many of today's small fries will grow into tomorrow's 800-pound gorillas, and there won't always be the budget or will to port them to J2EE. Commercial Lisp died because its proponents sneered at anything that wasn't rocket science. Java is in real danger of following in its path.
    There are shortsighted people everywhere. I think Sun and IBM(now Eclipse.org) are taking the lead, finally, in realizing that the desktop is important (see all the stuff that came out of JavaOne). A lot of us knew this before. This will lead to more of us coming out of the closet. MS is realizing it too and has come out with lite versions (Still money involved though).

    I don't see many .Net projects focusing on the little guy (or non-web projects). They do exist.

    I agree with looking at the little guy. I've said that all along. Why not grow with someone? That is what is great about the Java stack and the standards. If I or a customer wants, I can use low cost (or zero cost) tools/products to provide a product. This might mean less functionality. Not always. If we want larger vendor support then do if and when needed. I am doing this right now with an app that can be deployed as all Client-side (Swing + local db) or the other way as 'all' Server-Side (HTML + server db). So if the app is going to be single user, then I can use Jetty/Tomcat + HSQL (if they want it webish) and deliver it all as a zip file. Expand and run. If it is large scale I can use WebStart (if they don't want the client webby) and (pick your fav big App Server) and (pick your favorite big DB) and (pick your favorite cache tool).
  30. Here is a very neat (long(ish), but neat) article on OS. Not that I agree with all that is said (per se), but certainly worth a look.

    Cheers,

    Uday Parmar
    http://www.daffodildb.com
  31. Oops[ Go to top ]

    Thought that I might as well add the link to the article as well ;0)

    http://www.dwheeler.com/oss_fs_why.html