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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
Miguel de Icaza, the founder of the Mono project commented "J2EE is an academic crap". Debu Panda of Oracle has written against this flippant comment. He discusses the history of where we have gotten today, the problems that J2EE is trying to solve, and how we are all evolving.
ConclusionHistory is proof that none has done well when they played with Microsoft in its territory so I’m skeptic how successful Mono will be. The main goal behind .NET is to further Windows platform. Microsoft is very much worried about the Linux threat and it is to be seen how much it is willing to contribute to Ecma International in future. However, if Mono is successful in long term, as this is based on Linux it can make the .NET framework scalable and this is an open source project many companies will deploy their applications because this has potential to have best of both worlds i.e. developer productivity with .NET tools and scalable open source deployment platform. For J2EE to survive long term and increase its adoption, instead of terming the Visual Basic developers dumb, the J2EE vendors and community have to work to improve wizard based tools to lure them to use J2EE. Instead of welcoming sign to the Visual Basic developers that are used to wizard based development and that will be make J2EE platform so compelling that nobody will dare to call it academic crap any more. Read Is J2EE an academic crap?
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Message #131189
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Reflects realistic frustration, ignorance ... and money
Obviously J2EE is a wildly succesful and useful set of real-world tools.
I think Icaza's comment is made mostly because he hopes his money will come from .NEY, and perhaps partly because of the ignorance common to many young developers when they have becaome succesful : they forget how much they owe to those who showed the way. In this case, Microsoft largely copied many of the ideas of J2EE. Not only is there is nothing wrong with this, there is nothing unusual about it : it is the way humans make progress. However, many developers I know don't understand how much Java owes to C, to say nothing of how much .NET owes to J2EE.
However, I think one value of such comments is that they express a justified level of frustration with what I view as a symptom of the fatal disease of J2EE and Java in general : a sort of decadance in which increasing complexity slowly accretes around a language until it is dragged down by its own weight to the lower depths of IT specialties. This happened with C++, for instance; although of course one can still make a living with C++, it is no longer the lingua franca of corporate IT. The attempts to 'improve' J2EE I have seen have introduced significant complexity in 1.5. This will deter new adopters and exacerbate these frustrations.
Surely in the normal course of events new languages replace the old, improving by using the experience generated by their precursors ? I think it was Alan Kay who noted that the life of most languages in about 10 years. In my opinion, Java and J2EE are on that normal path and will begin to decline in popularity ... right on schedule.
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Message #131207
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de Icaza did not say that J2EE is crap
At least, Miguel did not say that in the interview, which Debu Panda points to. Either Debu cannot read, or has a long journalist practice. These guys always do this kind of things. To "have to do all this academic crap (with J2EE)" does not mean at all that "J2EE is an academic crap". Debu even had the audacity to surround this phrase with quotes. It is the classic propaganda approach.
Propaganda does not have to be completely untrue, it often has the sensible message. But because it is based on fabricated facts, people do not believe it. Cold War is over, but traditions die hard.
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Message #131210
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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being “academic”. In fact, I firmly believe, that only system that may successfully evolve, is the system with solid “academic” base. I would claim that even EJB spec itself has only one huge mistake:
CMP Entity Beans. (There is nothing wrong with BMP-EB).
I would say that CMP has triggered huge misuse and abuse of J2EE in general and EJB in particular because CMP was mistakenly was considered to be a generic ORM solution and crowd tried to use entire stack for any kinds of projects. It was not very successful and today we see a backlash against EJB and J2EE.
However, the entire situation might be presented as using gun against flies. There is nothing wrong with gun (although better design does exist), nor flies. Some things just do not scale down well, and others do not scale up.
.NET and Mono and Java in this regard all fall in the same trap: they try to be… OS, that is it. Actually .NET is going to be a next generation of OS from MS and there is no way for Mono folks to keep up.
It was said (although not that frequently) that .NET competes not with Java, but with Linux, however Java tries to play in the OS category as well, so it joins the rank of rivals.
Look:
Ability to run code written in any language:
.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – N;
Interoperability between modules written in different languages:
.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – N/Y;
Same binaries for all hardware:
.NET – N/A; Linux-N; Java – Y;
Same binaries for a particular hardware:
.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – Y;
Source code portability:
.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – Y;
Academically speaking .NET and Linux have many advantages over Java if we consider all of them as OSes, but Java might have huge advantage over .NET if it will stop trying to be an OS and will learn to play well with host OS and other systems.
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Message #131226
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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
Ability to run code written in any language:
.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – N; If you are using the term "Java" to mean the language, then N would be correct. But if by you mean JVM, then there are other languages besides Java that run on a JVM.
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Message #131228
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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
Mr. Miguel de Icaza said that J2EE is crap ,
if j2ee is crap so .net is more crap
because .net is copy of some j2ee parts and specialized for one
platform (dont mention MONO , mono would never get complete)
I think Mr Miguel de Icaza has not enough experience on j2ee ,
if so he would not let himself to talk such flippantly about a major
industrial accepted platform.
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Message #131231
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Seemingly, propaganda works
Mr. Miguel de Icaza said that J2EE is crap He did not say this. Or maybe you can provide a link where his exact words were "J2EE is crap"?
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Message #131233
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Seemingly, propaganda works
Mr. Miguel de Icaza said that J2EE is crap He did not say this. Or maybe you can provide a link where his exact words were "J2EE is crap"?
Miguel: "We found that people said that it was 25 percent more efficient to build in ASP.Net, because they have to do all this academic crap (with J2EE)."
Miguel: "The problem with J2EE really is that it became very, very academic and the complexity of all these perfectly designed systems in schools does not necessarily map when you have deadlines and all kinds of other things."
You can argue he did say "J2EE is crap", but I think there's enough meat in his actual words to take issue with. I don't think you can deny he's disparaging the usefulness of J2EE compared to .NET.
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Message #131235
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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
Ability to run code written in any language:.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – N; If you are using the term "Java" to mean the language, then N would be correct. But if by you mean JVM, then there are other languages besides Java that run on a JVM.
Of course I meant JVM, but also I said "any language". There are certain things which cannot be implemented in JVM: like direct pointer manipulations a-la C, C++ etc.
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Message #131236
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It is cool to be different: I like CMP
I would claim that even EJB spec itself has only one huge mistake:CMP Entity Beans. (There is nothing wrong with BMP-EB). I like CMP. But EJB designers lied to us. They claimed that Java developers did not have to know database crap (should we introduce "crap" as a new hip term?) Turned out, CMP developers should have knowledge about their particular database, its isolation level, locking scheme, page size and other stuff, as well as the settings of their app server like (again) locking scheme, concurrency mode, etc.
Deployment descriptions were originally meant to be configured by Deployer, after source code is written and compiled. Fine-tuning my ass. At least WL6 and a WL7 generate different stubs for different concurrency settings in deployment descriptor (long live Jad to show me ways of an evil). Which means, that Deployer role shrinks to jar, cp and touch, and Developer must know everything from database to Java code to descriptors to server setup. This is a lot.
So, bulky specs combined with incoherent implementations produced that elephant that some talk about. Despite of that, I like idea behind CMP. It provides object persistence using relational database, in that sense it is more than just an ORM.
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Message #131238
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I would not know about meat, I am not a butcher.
Mr. Miguel de Icaza said that J2EE is crap He did not say this. Or maybe you can provide a link where his exact words were "J2EE is crap"?
Miguel: "We found that people said that it was 25 percent more efficient to build in ASP.Net, because they have to do all this academic crap (with J2EE)."Miguel: "The problem with J2EE really is that it became very, very academic and the complexity of all these perfectly designed systems in schools does not necessarily map when you have deadlines and all kinds of other things."You can argue he did say "J2EE is crap", but I think there's enough meat in his actual words to take issue with. I don't think you can deny he's disparaging the usefulness of J2EE compared to .NET.
You can think whatever you want, but you cannot publicly accuse someone in doing or telling something what he did not do or tell. Did he say "J2EE is crap"? No. Did he mean that? Maybe, but you cannot prove that, because he did not say it and did not sign under it.
This is a fine example of americal approach to judicial system: he did not do it, but we know he meant to (wanted to). Or: he surely did it, we just do not have evidence to prove it, but he did it, all of twelve of us agree upon it. We just workers/truck drivers/farmers who happened to get together for this boring courtroom hearing, and we know nothing about Presumption of Innocence. But we think he is a bad guy.
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Message #131244
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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
Ability to run code written in any language:.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – N; If you are using the term "Java" to mean the language, then N would be correct. But if by you mean JVM, then there are other languages besides Java that run on a JVM.
Of course I meant JVM, but also I said "any language". There are certain things which cannot be implemented in JVM: like direct pointer manipulations a-la C, C++ etc.
Hum... and (do correct me if I'm worng but) I suppose direct pointer manipulations were such a good thing to begin with that they were removed from the newer .NET languages (read C#, VB.NET, etc.) ?
In any event, multiple languages do run on the JVM, so your actual affirmation :
Ability to run code written in any language:.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – N;
is flawed, at best.
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Message #131246
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It is cool to be different: I like CMP
I like idea behind CMP. It provides object persistence using relational database, in that sense it is more than just an ORM. My claim is that The idea is behind BMP :) and CMP is just a poor persistence spec. It is not even ORM, because CMP says nothing about DB although almost all vendors implementad CMP as ORM ( exept early JRun ).
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Message #131247
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Reflects realistic frustration, ignorance ... and money
However, I think one value of such comments is that they express a justified level of frustration with what I view as a symptom of the fatal disease of J2EE and Java in general : a sort of decadance in which increasing complexity slowly accretes around a language until it is dragged down by its own weight to the lower depths of IT specialties. Here you claim that Java is dying of a "fatal disease". But you fail to explain in what way C-sharp is a fresher language, worthy of supplanting Java.
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Message #131249
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Publicity Stunt
Come on...
This was more of a "Publicity Stunt"
One of the common followed rules of getting popular is to take a jab at something popular or standard.
Only time will tell how effective Mono would become (if ever).
We in the J2EE community have realised about the complexity and are working towards reducing it (Look at the amount of work that is being done in the J2EE world). There is new news everyday. New innovation, new stuff etc...
I am just happy to be a part of all this.
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Message #131255
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What ?
However, I think one value of such comments is that they express a justified level of frustration with what I view as a symptom of the fatal disease of J2EE and Java in general : a sort of decadance in which increasing complexity slowly accretes around a language until it is dragged down by its own weight to the lower depths of IT specialties. Here you claim that Java is dying of a "fatal disease". But you fail to explain in what way C-sharp is a fresher language, worthy of supplanting Java.
Because I don't think C# is a fresher language, worthy of supplanting Java, nor did I say so in my post. I think J2EE and Java have problems caused by the way we work with computer technology in general, similar to the problems C++ encountered ... continuous tinkering and 'enhancement' leading to terminal feature bloat. Sun held the line for some time by controlling the language, defending it from the happy commercial idiots who, by the same process of enhancement, ruined the promise if UNIX as a universal OS - and incidentally gave Microsoft the opportunity they needed - but now I think we have passed the point of no return with J2EE and developers are looking for alternatives. And I think you can never go back , so that this particular problem cannot be 'fixed'.
.NET provides incremental improvements on J2EE in my view, building upon J2EE ideas in the main. But .NET cannot really compete with J2EE, because, of course, 'it runs on Windows only' .. old story, ho-hum. Microsoft is irrelevant to what I am talking about ...
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Message #131258
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Quality
And the quality of the articles keeps on going down. Come on lets have news not flamebait - TSS is becoming tabloid (UK term for low quality newspaper).
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Message #131264
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the attack of the clones
.NET provides incremental improvements on J2EE in my view, building upon J2EE ideas in the main. But .NET cannot really compete with J2EE, because, of course, 'it runs on Windows only' 20 years ago Microsoft was making money selling bare operating system. But this is not the case anymore. Microsoft has a lot more products to sell. If they sell Word for Mac, why would not they do the same for Linux? And if they (and others writing for Windows platform) could port their product easier, would not they do it? Linux market barely existed couple of years ago. There was kernel, there were window managers and desktops, there were even applications, but most of this stuff was free. Now Linux grew into a huge market. Would not MS like a piece of this pie? And with Mono it will be easier.
Now, what is Windows? It is not just krnl386.exe or user.exe, it is the whole bunch of files, executables, registry, DLLs, windowing, messaging, DDE/OLE/COM, etc. It is monolythic thing, hey, Windows console applications did not even exist in old Windows versions, it was so tightly coupled with presentation layer. MS realised this problem. .NET was the first step to decouple apps from kernel and hardware. Now WinFX is the largest makeover in Windows history. New APIs will provide better decoupling of application modules from the system, at the same time making development easier.
What is Linux? Just start whining about this bug or that bug in GNOME or KDE or Konqueror, and Linux zealots would shout that it is not Linux problem, because Linux is just a kernel. Fine. So how you would like this scenario:
* MS developed hardware-independent and language-independent CLR.
* They changing Windows API to decouple new managed apps from obsolete Win32
* New API would be hardware-independent as well and in large scale OS-independent, it would run on top of .NET CLR
* All new Avalon applications would be able to run on top of any OS which provides new API
* They (or Ximian/Novell) will port this new API to other systems, like Linux
Voila! The result is not just MS apps would be running on Linux, but MS presentation API and other APIs would be running on Linux. GNOME and KDE would go fishing, and Linux would shrink back to just the kernel. Basically, the whole difference between Windows and Linux would be in the modules that translate .NET bytecode into machine codes, and low-level stuff like memory management, paging, multiprocessing, thread handling. The actual implementation of these features is not important for most developers.
As the result, Windows and Linux will look and behave alike, and it will not be GNOME or KDE or even Swing, it will be Avalon. The difference will be only in the kernel. Big deal, MS will make money on everything else, from tools to apps.
MS does everything right. I always revered its marketing genius. Sun could not make Java/Swing to become THE API for Windows GUI. But MS got the idea, now watch how Avalon would become the standard API for Linux.
Do you still wonder why MS opened .NET specs and even helped Ximian to port it to Linux?
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Message #131268
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the attack of the clones
Microsoft has a lot more products to sell. If they sell Word for Mac, why would not they do the same for Linux? If Microsoft were split into two firms (OS and apps), as the original anti-trust judgement ordered, then the resulting applications firm would have a compelling profit motive to port Office to Linux. Linux would already have Office by now.
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Message #131269
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Re: Linux would already have Office by now
If Microsoft were split into two firms (OS and apps), as the original anti-trust judgement ordered, then the resulting applications firm would have a compelling profit motive to port Office to Linux. Linux would already have Office by now. Linux crowd have not got used to pay for software yet. But they are getting there, pushed by Lindows, SUSE, Red Hat and even by Sun, which wants to charge $50 per year for Java Desktop. I would rather pay for Office than for Java Desktop which is just another distro. MS will get to Linux, I am confident on this. If penguin would not be strangled before.
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Message #131272
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J2EE is not academic crap but EJB is not necessary
All the elements in J2EE are basically necessary except for EJB.
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Message #131276
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the attack of the clones
As the result, Windows and Linux will look and behave alike, and it will not be GNOME or KDE or even Swing, it will be Avalon. The difference will be only in the kernel. Big deal, MS will make money on everything else, from tools to apps. This all sounds nice, but who needs a presentation API on the server? Windows is still floundering in the server arena and cannot compete with Linux on price or features.
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Message #131278
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Not only presentation
As the result, Windows and Linux will look and behave alike, and it will not be GNOME or KDE or even Swing, it will be Avalon. The difference will be only in the kernel. Big deal, MS will make money on everything else, from tools to apps. This all sounds nice, but who needs a presentation API on the server? Windows is still floundering in the server arena and cannot compete with Linux on price or features.
WinFX is not Avalon only. Indigo is web/app services API, WinFS is storage API, Yukon is database API. .NET has other APIs including all needed fundamental stuff, they just did not create a separate cool name for these APIs, they all are covered by .NET. And all these APIs are higer-level, managed API, not Intel Win32 stuff. How is that different from Java/J2EE + servlets/JSP/EJB/JDBC et al? I am confident that if Linux lives at least five more years, MS will port its managed app stuff to Linux, with or without Mono. Divide et Empera.
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Message #131291
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Debu Panda is just trying to market himself
Miguel said this:
"We found that people said that it was 25 percent more efficient to build in ASP.Net, because they have to do all this academic crap (with J2EE)"
"
He doesn't say that J2EE is academic crap, I think Panda with his provocative headline is just trying to sell himself, he's created some controversy out of nothing so that people will go to his blog to see what it's all about.
I for one wouldn't hire him, reading his blog it's pretty obvious his English skills aren't too hot.
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Message #131292
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Not only presentation
I am confident that if Linux lives at least five more years, MS will port its managed app stuff to Linux, with or without Mono. Divide et Empera. I think you give Microsoft to much credit, they will not have all the stuff you mention running on Windows in five years, or if they do it will be so tightly integrated with their newest OS the two will be inseperable.
Yes, they have learned their lesson and are desperate to catch up with java on the server side, but they still have many years to make up, in the mean time java and linux pull further ahead.
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Message #131304
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de Icaza did not say that J2EE is crap
Michael,
Anyone who reads "this academic crap (with J2EE)" will get the message "J2EE is crap". I originally received this message in the SEAJUG mailing list and few others also got the same message.
As I'm passionate about J2EE, I thought to write this blog. Please note that I acknowledge that Mono could be a threat to J2EE if successful.
Michael said "..has a long journalist practice."
I'm a pure techhie. Never I was a journalist nor do I inspire to. Thanks for suggesting me a career alternative. (:-
I know my limitations that myy english skills are that great and will never do such a blunder
If I sound like a journalist, I will call you a spokesman for Mono, .NET and Microsoft (:-
Peace ..
(Stealing Cameron's trademark)
-Debu
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Message #131306
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Debu Panda is just trying to market himself
>>Sinjay: "I think Panda with his provocative headline is just trying to sell himself, he's created some controversy out of nothing so that people will go to his blog to see what it's all "
I was not trying to be provocative. I could have a title "Miquel says J2EE is crap", if I wanted a provocative title. Blogging is not my fulltime job and is just my hobby.
>> Sanjay:"I for one wouldn't hire him,
I'm very happy in my current job with Oracle and not looking for out. I will make sure that I will not send my resume to you when I'm without a job.
>> Sanjay "reading his blog it's pretty obvious his English skills aren't too hot."
I appreciate your comment on my english skills. I'm not a technical writer and I'm trying to improve upon. I've survived more than 14 in the IT industry years in such a poor english as you know technical skills are more important than english (:-
-Debu
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Message #131307
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de Icaza did not say that J2EE is crap
Clicked on post too fast a slight correction
Michael said "..has a long journalist practice."
I'm a pure techhie. Never I was a journalist nor do I inspire to. Thanks for suggesting me a career alternative. (:-
I know my limitations that my english skills is NOT that great and will never do such a blunder
- Debu
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Message #131312
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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
Miguel de Icaza, the founder of the Mono project commented "J2EE is an academic crap". Aside from any .NET vs J2EE debate (this subject and Rolf are getting me brain dead and I am starting to scream and splash my head into walls), how can "academic" and "crap" fit together ? I mean in many cases "academic" may NOT be the equivalent of "the *real* thing" but it certainly is not crap. Not all of it.
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Message #131322
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We all owe something to J2EE
I think mr. de Icaza is missing some points.
Fact 1 - without J2EE, in late nineties, we would not have had real alternatives to Microsoft's DNA architecture for distributed computing. LAMP is not an alternative, here.
Fact 2 - altough Java performance on linux is less than stellar, linux server installation are more or less used to J2EE related stuff.
Fact 3 - without J2EE, no .net.
In short, when i see all these J2EE is a crap, bloated, etc... i think there's something more to say (like Linux TCO vs. windows...). I can agree that the specifications are becoming huge, but vitality in Java world can be seen by high level projects that are built with it. Think JBoss. Think Geronimo. Think the whole jakarta. Think Hibernate. Think AOP. Think...Java.
As a side note: please, stop bashing Sun. I am no Sun Employee, and they do not always keep it right. But please, they are trying. Do we will ever see a .net community process? Try proposing api changes to Microsoft...
Luca Botti
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Message #131327
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de Icaza did not say that J2EE is crap
I can implement crap with .NET, doe's it mean .NET is crap ?
How many crappy j2ee applications you have implemented to prove j2ee is crap ?
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Message #131353
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J2EE?!
Saying J2EE is crap is a very big generalization. There are many things that are J2EE. Are we talking about EJBs, JMS, or Servlets/JSPs?
From my experience if you use Servlets/JSPs and JDBC/POJOs you can get the same speed of development as .NET. Now when you want consistancy, transactions, caching, clustering, etc you get into Stateless/Stateful EJBs, if you want robust Messaging, you get into JMS and Message Beans. All I have mentioned are not any more flawed than .NET's equivalent; ASP.NET, Singletons, etc.
I think the confusion sets in with Entity beans; a way to have ACID transactions, caching of data from a datasource, clustering, etc. Entity Beans are not the core of J2EE, but another tool like the rest of the Framework. I personally think that Entity beans are flawed, overly complicated and maybe a bit academic, but .NET has no equivalent! (ADO.NET should be compared more to JDO or possibly Hibernate....not Entitiy beans, there is a third party library called DataObjects, but talk about flawed..) All of these blanket statements/comparisons are always wrong, and should be looked at with extreme skepticism when talking about server based technologies.
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Message #131355
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J2EE is Academic Crap
BTW,
I know two ways, academic and lame.
.NET is academic framework, is not it ?
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Message #131371
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Linux is just a kernel
Konstantin,
<quote>
Ability to run code written in any language:
.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – N;
</quote>
This comparision does not make any sense Linux is just OS kernel. .NET and Java is
development platforms with compilers, debugger and execution enviroments.
.NET is not going to become OS, next M$ OS is Lonhorn. Of course they are going to get rid of Win32 API C and move all API to managed .NET enviroment.
I don't think that Java is trying to become OS. Java just abstracts underlying OS API. The same with Mono .NET implementation they have implemented it on top of libc + other linux specific stuff.
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Message #131373
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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
Everyone knows that Sun's PetStore, GridBag, etc is Crap.
PHP open source is cool
But Java and Open source is just as cool.
One problem is Java is the so called "architects" that have "patern" driven aritectures, that are academic and emabrassing to other Java developers.
C# on Linux sounds great to me, as long as the Java "architects" do something else.
.V
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Message #131375
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'.NET runs on Windows only' is not true anymore
But .NET cannot really compete with J2EE, because, of course, 'it runs on Windows only' .. old story, ho-hum. Microsoft is irrelevant to what I am talking about ... I have Mono installed on SuSE Linux on this very machine and I already have ported a couple of (small) ASP.NET applications, so far, so good. At least in the realm of medium-sized web applications, the "Windows-only" assertion is not true anymore.
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Message #131376
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Linux is just a kernel
Konstantin,<quote>Ability to run code written in any language:.NET – Y; Linux-Y; Java – N;</quote>This comparision does not make any sense Linux is just OS kernel. .NET and Java is development platforms with compilers, debugger and execution enviroments..NET is not going to become OS, next M$ OS is Lonhorn. Of course they are going to get rid of Win32 API C and move all API to managed .NET enviroment.I don't think that Java is trying to become OS. Java just abstracts underlying OS API. The same with Mono .NET implementation they have implemented it on top of libc + other linux specific stuff. Would it be clear if I used JVM instead of Java?
I actually meant kernels (Linux, CLR, JVM) plus “standard” environments, which include compilers, libraries, etc.
I am saying that certain languages cannot be compiled into JVM bytecode.
As for new MS OS: it is not the name that matters, it is core and its API: someone has already mentioned that biggest Linux asset is API, in a certain sense Linux kernel is a VM that abstracts programs from underlying hardware. Does not JVM do the same? CLR?
JVM above Linux VM Looks like overhead for me…
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Message #131382
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Linux is just a kernel
I am saying that certain languages cannot be compiled into JVM bytecode. If you had a computer science degree, you'd understand Turing completeness. The JVM is targeted by ten times more languages than the CLR. Beware when someone uses the adjective 'certain'; it means he has no such example and can't overcome his own self-deception to admit it.
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Message #131385
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Linux kernel is a VM?
in a certain sense Linux kernel is a VM that abstracts programs from underlying hardware. Does not JVM do the same? CLR? JVM above Linux VM Looks like overhead for me… VM is a processing environment, not just an abstraction layer. Linux can host VMs for non-native applications like dosemu for DOS or wine for Windows or even apple2 for old Apple software. It can host Java VM as well, which is an abstraction of imagenary Java hardware.
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Message #131392
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Linux kernel is a VM?
VM is a processing environment, not just an abstraction layer. Linux can host VMs for non-native applications like dosemu for DOS or wine for Windows or even apple2 for old Apple software. It can host Java VM as well, which is an abstraction of imagenary Java hardware. Hmm, how about Linux running atop of VMWare or IBM’s mainframe? My point is that boundaries between VM and abstraction layer/OS are blurry and OS can be considered as a single instance of VM on the given (hard|virtual)ware.
If VM API is sufficient for all(?) practical purposes then we might ask if we need that host OS at all and slash it: VM becomes OS…
Now about EJB: functionality of containers (EJB and Web) resembles functionality of OS/VM more and more: I am talking about process separation, library versioning, hot deployment, etc. Question: Is it worth doing? Maybe we need to go back to roots and allow those processes to work as VM/OS processes again…
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Message #131406
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Crappy Crap
and MONO/.NET isn't accedemic? No, it is not academic at all. It (.NET) is quite a calculated strategy to stem the loss of developers that have helped Microsoft to build the most successful software company in history .. basically, it is an acknowledgement that they had completely lost their technical inertia, and had to find something similar to the Java technologies and appeal in order to avoid losing their entire strategic advantage. Their strategic advantage has long been that they were _the_ platform to develop for. Anyone stupid enough to develop for UNIX or the Mac or Next or (etc.) went out of business. There were lots of successful small companies and app vendors in the Windows world. That critical mass has made Windows a ubiquitous (and thus very valuable) platform.
Java threatened that value, not by undermining Windows, but by undermining the lock-in that Microsoft had with the Windows platform. The more people that switched to writing Java apps, the less necessary Windows would become, and it would potentially lose its ubiquity.
(I personally doubt that would happen anyway; IMHO Linux as a manageable / maintainable OS is at least ten years away from being usable by my mom, and Apple purposefully keeps its prices higher to maintain their image as a luxury good. In other words, Windows has a competitive advantage for quite a while as a desktop OS.)
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #131409
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J2EE?!
Saying J2EE is crap is a very big generalization. There are many things that are J2EE. Are we talking about EJBs, JMS, or Servlets/JSPs? Actually, taken individually, every interface defined in J2EE _could_ be shown to be crap from a design perspective.
The value in J2EE isn't that the design is perfect, but that everyone uses it.
If you want to build your own better design, you can go do that. Heck, Microsoft did .. too bad everyone is still using J2EE. ;-)
The enemy of "good" is "better".I think the confusion sets in with Entity beans; a way to have ACID transactions, caching of data from a datasource, clustering, etc. I've always wondered about the "clustering" claims. Until WebLogic 7, I hadn't seen _any_ app servers deal with clustering issues for entity beans, and WebLogic 7 just added the ability to async-invalidate entity caches (something like sending a JMS message on a topic or broadcasting a multicast packet that a certain PK had to be flushed.)
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #131417
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Crappy Crap
and MONO/.NET isn't accedemic? No, it is not academic at all.
Most important MS technolagies are academic and are developed by the Open Software Foundation, probably .NET is an exception (It is developed by SUN) but this fact doe's not help me to trust it more than JAVA.
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Message #131432
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Java would not exist but for Microsoft
It is amazing what claims people will believe in.
Java is not Sun's invention. The Zeitgeist, the time was ripe for a simplification of C++ it could just as well been any of another dozen candidates that the international web-community took up and transformed. Java was just a language for TV-top boxes at the time.
Microsoft contributed more to early Java than any other company and for thanks Sun threw a lawsuit against them that it would not have won in any other country on earth but in US with its broken juridical system.
So Sun Java is nothing but a scam, what it was- how it became what it is- and what it is. After MS dropped Java it turned into J2EE with EJB and the biggest fiasco of all time in IT industry. The money lost in not finished, broken and mal-functioning systems beats any imagination. With high-priests, fanatical followers, pseudo-science, todo. A fenomen similar to the Tulip-craze in the 1700 century.
It is a sad story, really, thoroughly disgusting.
At last it is finishing!
When the end is good, all is good.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #131435
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Real Ultimate Power!
Rolf,So Sun Java is nothing but a scam, ....
It is a sad story, really, thoroughly disgusting.
At last it is finishing! You mean you are going to finally respect your "promise" and not post any more? ;-)
Java, like any real market, is a chapter book. We're on about chapter 5 now. Some of the companies in the market already skipped ahead to chapter 11, but that's a different story. What you don't "get" is that Java isn't a company .. it's hard with your limited industry experience (the Microsoft feudal system) to understand how an entire market can survive despite failures of individual technologies and companies, but you are not too old to learn.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #131436
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J2EE?!
I've always wondered about the "clustering" claims. Until WebLogic 7, I hadn't seen _any_ app servers deal with clustering issues for entity beans... I'm WebLogic 6 certified, but I don't have the docs now. I thought release 6 had clustered caching of read-only and read-mostly entities.
Also an unrelated matter, I think you're being too strict by insisting that clustering needs caching. Failover of entity beans doesn't need caching, and this has been so since before version 7. WebLogic has long had smart stubs, a clustered alternative to caching for client/server applications. ...and WebLogic 7 just added the ability to async-invalidate entity caches (something like sending a JMS message on a topic or broadcasting a multicast packet that a certain PK had to be flushed.) I thought the older versions had asynchronous invalidation by some proprietary way.
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Message #131439
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Linux is just a kernel
Konstatin,
Linux API is libc + POSIX + other. Java on other end sits on top of POSIX or Win32 + OS dependent crap and creates unified view for different OS'es.
So I still don't think that it makes sense to compare Linux with JVM or CLR.
And btw Linux VM does not abstract anything it's subsystem which takes care of virtual memory management. Please don't confuse it with VM which is virtual machine.
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Message #131441
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It is human to err, but it is not company policy to forgive
Cameron: it's hard (for you) to understand how an entire market can survive despite failures of individual technologies" I on the other hand would forgive, if it were not for the "High-priests, fanatical followers, pseudo-science" thing.
Sorry
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #131445
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Linux is just a kernel
Konstatin,Linux API is libc + POSIX + other. Java on other end sits on top of POSIX or Win32 + OS dependent crap and creates unified view for different OS'es. So I still don't think that it makes sense to compare Linux with JVM or CLR.And btw Linux VM does not abstract anything it's subsystem which takes care of virtual memory management. Please don't confuse it with VM which is virtual machine. What is the goal of JVM, CLR, Linux? Supposedly it is providing a convenient and portable API to write applications against it.
From a developer’s point of view (mine) it does not matter if it is VM or whatever, we write applications against APIs and we need our applications to be able to work on maximum number of platforms possible, be robust and fast enough. Java provides such option to some degree, so does Linux. However approaches are different: JVM provides ‘binary’ compatibility when Linux provides compilability of source code, in the end as a developer I have the same source to ‘deploy’ on various platforms. With distros like Gentoo it does not matter if I distribute source or bytecode, user says: get appName; appName and after a while it gets executed….
I would speculate that when somebody will create convenient GNU-Linux VM for Windows it would render Java obsolete.
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Message #131451
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Linux is just a kernel
There binary compatibility it's called ELF. But problem for perfect compatibility is OS system calls. Some OS'es such as FreeBSD can run linux binaries and emulate linux syscalls. As I know Sun has some stuff which allows you to run linux binaries on Solaris
Ok I agree that from some very abstract point of view you can compare Linux with JVM & CLR.
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Message #131452
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'.NET runs on Windows only' is not true anymore
But .NET cannot really compete with J2EE, because, of course, 'it runs on Windows only' .. old story, ho-hum. Microsoft is irrelevant to what I am talking about ... I have Mono installed on SuSE Linux on this very machine and I already have ported a couple of (small) ASP.NET applications, so far, so good. At least in the realm of medium-sized web applications, the "Windows-only" assertion is not true anymore.
THe future of MS applications are XAML and Winforms and more Windows platform lockin (Check out their Smart Client site).
What do you mean by "Ported"? With Java, there is no porting needed.
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Message #131456
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Crappy Crap
(I personally doubt that would happen anyway; IMHO Linux as a manageable / maintainable OS is at least ten years away from being usable by my mom, and Apple purposefully keeps its prices higher to maintain their image as a luxury good. In other words, Windows has a competitive advantage for quite a while as a desktop OS.) It might be sooner than we all think. I've been introduced to some interesting things. We'll see how they go. If people would buy Linux like they do Windows, it would be no time. Updating drivers, etc. on Windows is not an easy task for the normal person let alone someone who knows what they are doing. For the day-to-day user, Linux distros are just as easy as Windows. Start - Programs ...
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Message #131457
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It is human to err, but it is not company policy to forgive
Cameron: it's hard (for you) to understand how an entire market can survive despite failures of individual technologies" I on the other hand would forgive, if it were not for the "High-priests, fanatical followers, pseudo-science" thing.SorryRolf Tollerud Rolf,
I dont mind whether its java or .NET or whatever the crap it is as long as it behaves as it promises on the tin!
But how about Microsoft fixing the problems with Windows before rolling out more .NET? Why there are so many security flaws? Yes, Microsoft is a mighty company, but why they dont find the problems before some school boy hacker get it?
I think, its not java, but many products like Norton Anti Virus owe a big deal to Microsoft.
And yes, any software bound to have bugs. But there should be a limit. And there is a limit. If a software says in will do Operation A in 10 secs, its acceptable to take 11 secs. But if a software says, its secure but you are JUST one of the 1000 people who know your credit card details, then its not a good deal!!!
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Message #131476
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Java would not exist but for Microsoft
The Zeitgeist, the time was ripe for a
simplification of C++ it could just as well been any
of another dozen candidates that the international
web-community took up and transformed. Smalltalk had everything that Java had, including bytecode portability , rich class library, and IDE. But Smalltalk was mostly neglected. Sun was very interested in binary portable languages with just-in-time compilation. Sun invested heavily in such research. Microsoft had no binary portability; Microsoft had no just-in-time compilation; Sun had Self which it
nurtured with great staff from Smalltalk academia.
Then Sun had a brilliant idea: take the semantics of Smalltalk, the stack machinery of PostScript, and skin it with the syntax of C++ so that even lame managers would recognize it as familiar and accept it. Microsoft could have done something similar at any time, but it hadn't a clue and didn't want to deviate from its dominant dichotomy of C++ and VisualBasic. Fundamental research in this direction didn't interest Microsoft. The execution model of Perl, Smalltalk, Java, and Forth was completely missed by the Microsoft. Years
later (after Sun invented the word 'intranet' and the intranet mushroomed into the keystone of business automation), only then did Microsoft show any interest
in virtual machinery (and only after publicly bashing virtual machinery as a sluggish gimmick). Only then did Microsoft decide to steal Java, first by disrespecting its license, and finally by recasting it as C#.Microsoft contributed more to early Java
than any other company... It was companies such as IBM that were collaboratively incubating Java with Sun before Java became public. I remember before JDK 1.0, interviewing with EDS and being told it was an object oriented animation language without syntax. Amazing that Java has since spawned enterprise servers such as JBoss. Imagine how much better PowerPoint would be if its early architects had any concept of applets. How much better would ODBC be if Microsoft had known that queries could include portable bytecode? Nope, Microsoft didn't have a clue and continued to evangelize C++ and VB development for some time.
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Message #131493
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ICAZA IN J2EE ACADEMIC CRAP SHOCK!
This discussion is all well and good, but Mr Panda has completely misquoted Miguel Icaza. The actual quote is "because they have to do all this academic crap (with J2EE)", which does not, by any stretch of the imagination mean the same as "J2EE is an academic crap" (or even "J2EE is academic crap", which I assume is what was meant). He was talking about what you have to *do* to build J2EE apps, not about the design of J2EE itself, which is what Mr Panda's blog entry implies. The two things are not one and the same -- for example the complexity of building J2EE apps can be solved by tools, whereas a crap design cannot.
Mr Panda should probably publish an apology, though to be honest I doubt Mr Icaza will mind terribly about being misquoted -- he (and Mono) probably received far more publicity that if he had been quoted correctly.
In general I'm having real issues with noise to signal at the moment, with every man and his dog writing down every single thought that pops into their heads, so I get really annoyed when what I'm reading turns out not to be true at all. Hopefully blogging will go out of fashion soon, and the signal strength will increase...
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Message #131497
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J2EE?!
I'm WebLogic 6 certified, but I don't have the docs now. I thought release 6 had clustered caching of read-only and read-mostly entities. Read-only is automatically cacheable even in a cluster, but it's done locally. That's the beauty of read-only ;-)
They may have added Dimitri Rakitine's Seppuku support into WL 6.1 (I thought it was 7.x but I am probably wrong.) That's for read-mostly.Also an unrelated matter, I think you're being too strict by insisting that clustering needs caching. Well, were talking about entity beans, so it isn't that much of a stretch ;-)Failover of entity beans doesn't need caching, and this has been so since before version 7. WebLogic has long had smart stubs, a clustered alternative to caching for client/server applications. While the stub may know to go to a new server, any work done on the old server will have been lost if the transaction wasn't committed. So in that instance, the failover is simply a stateless sticky 'load balancer' algorithm built into the stub.
Also, calling entity beans remotely is considered an Evil Thing (tm), so what does it even mean to fail over entity beans?
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #131499
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ICAZA IN J2EE ACADEMIC CRAP SHOCK!
Hopefully blogging will go out of fashion soon, and the signal strength will increase... Like the main stream news media gets it right. At least with blogging, you know it is someone's opinion or guess-timation. That is if one has have a brain.
Ok should he at least say he misquoted him?
Miguel says "because they have to do all this academic crap (with J2EE)" and "The problem with J2EE really is that it became very, very academic".
So he is saying that to do J2EE you have to do alot of "academic crap". And he is saying that J2EE is [now] academice - 2 verys. So to me, although he didn't say the words, he IS implying that doing J2EE is doing academic crap.
I'm not sure why anyone is trying to defend Miguel. I could not believe he actually said half of the junk he said.
Like this one - "We found that people said that it was 25 percent more efficient to build in ASP.Net ..." then right after that "We interviewed about 25 customers about why would you buy Mono, why not J2EE, and we came up with that." Wow. Incredibly indepth study.
How about this - "Yeah, and you see a lot of people using all the alternative technologies with Java like Struts. The problem is that other than a couple of O'Reilly books, there is nothing else there. It's not something that you can attend a course on. It's not something you can just pick up training or support anywhere."
Struts - an alternative? Just a couple of O'Reilly books? No courses? Anywhere.
"Will you be able to port everything that Microsoft does on Windows to other operating systems?
The new UI stuff, I have struggled a lot with what we are going to do with our toolkit."
That's too bad. Cause the is the direction of Microsoft. It has to be. Not ASP.Net applications.
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Message #131504
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defining the problem
I should say that the problem is not what Icaza has said but that so many in this forum agree with him.
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Message #131505
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Linux is just a kernel
Konstantin,
<q>
I would speculate that when somebody will create convenient GNU-Linux VM for Windows it would render Java obsolete.
</q>
There is such "API" it's called Cygwing or Unix Services for Window (M$ product)
You can compile and run XFree86 or gcc on windows :))
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Message #131512
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ICAZA IN J2EE ACADEMIC CRAP SHOCK!
Hopefully blogging will go out of fashion soon, and the signal strength will increase... Like the main stream news media gets it right.
Well, yes, obviously it depends on what you read, but at least the mainstream media has the threat of being sued if they misquote somebody. Any reputable publication will check their facts before they publish something.So to me, although he didn't say the words, he IS implying that doing J2EE is doing academic crap. Yes I agree, but that isn't what the title of Mr Panda's blog entry was.I'm not sure why anyone is trying to defend Miguel. I could not believe he actually said half of the junk he said. I'm definitely not trying to defend him, just pointing out that he was misquoted.
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Message #131515
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it has happen before
"And so they realized that the $75.000 tulip was only worth a few cents."
"What practical value could tulips have had in Holland in 1636?"
"And what could cause people to lose such control of their senses?"
Yes, that can you ask yourself.
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Message #131522
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defining the problem
I should say that the problem is not what Icaza has said but that so many in this forum agree with him. I don't see that. Maybe some minor point. If you equate J2EE to EJB like you always do. Other than that, not.
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Message #131524
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ICAZA IN J2EE ACADEMIC CRAP SHOCK!
Well, yes, obviously it depends on what you read, but at least the mainstream media has the threat of being sued if they misquote somebody. Any reputable publication will check their facts before they publish something. I seem to remember a certain paper saying the Kerry's running mate wasn't Edwards. And these sort of things are not unusual for the mainstream media. Alot of times it is just plain bs. I see and hear it all the time. Gartner, NBC, etc.
The difference between them and blogging - The mainstream "media" is supposed to present facts and do it impartially. They don't. Blogging is opinion. He as a right to say it if he feels that is what he read. Yes I agree, but that isn't what the title of Mr Panda's blog entry was. His title doesn't quote Miguel. It asks a question. I can see that being a good question based on what Miguel said. The first link of the blog says that Miguel says "J2EE is an academic crap". But he didn't put it in quotes. So it is not a quote. It is an interpretation. The next lines are quotes from the interview. So at best, this is a misinterpretation (and not that far off the mark) and not a misquote.I'm definitely not trying to defend him, just pointing out that he was misquoted. See what he said. Also feel free to point out the downright lies in Miguels statements. :)
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Message #131529
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'.NET runs on Windows only' is not true anymore
THe future of MS applications are XAML and Winforms and more Windows platform lockin (Check out their Smart Client site). I know about the Longhorn stuff, so I agree with the XAML and smart client part of your comment, as for the "more Windows platform lockin", that's your hypothesis (and you're entitled to have it, of course).
As for hypothesis, what about this one: C# and the CLI are an ISO standard and can evolve independently from Microsoft, furthermore, if your hypothesis hold true, ASP.NET will be of less interest to Microsoft, so Mono can take over it's evolution and, voilá, we have a very productive environment for web applications, community owned, etc. But, of course, this is just a crazy idea that came to my mind as I read your comment...What do you mean by "Ported"? With Java, there is no porting needed. OK, I stand corrected, copied then recompiled. And, I insist, it's been small apps so far, I prefer to go one step at a time.
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Message #131530
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Linux is just a kernel
Konstantin,<q>I would speculate that when somebody will create convenient GNU-Linux VM for Windows it would render Java obsolete.</q>There is such "API" it's called Cygwing or Unix Services for Window (M$ product)You can compile and run XFree86 or gcc on windows :)) Cygwin is a great product, but IMHO it is not convenient enough(yet?) for seamlessly using Unix applications on Win. I imagine something kind of reversed Wine, that will allow starting Unix applications with command like
unixVM –install packageName
unixVM –run packageName
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Message #131536
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Attack on IIS Web Sites Infects Browsers With Malicious Code
Security analysts say that the malicious code that has been infecting some Windows machines since Thursday morning was planted via an IIS (Internet Information Services) vulnerability on the Web servers that host some high-traffic sites.
Users visiting those sites have had their machines infected with a piece of code that installs a keystroke logger and other malicious tools.
The attack appears to affect only machines running Internet Explorer, and users do not have to click on any links or images in order for the code to download. The Trojan that's installed on compromised machines is a fairly simple one.
"A large number of web sites, some of them quite popular, were compromised earlier this week to distribute malicious code. The attacker uploaded a small file with javascript to infected web sites, and altered the web server configuration to append the script to all files served by the web server," Johannes Ullrich, a handler at the Internet Storm Center at The SANS Institute in Bethesda, Md., wrote in the ISC's online diary Friday.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1617233,00.asp
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Message #131538
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'.NET runs on Windows only' is not true anymore
As for hypothesis, what about this one: C# and the CLI are an ISO standard and can evolve independently from Microsoft No, standard and can not evolve independently itself without vedor or community support.
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Message #131546
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ICAZA IN J2EE ACADEMIC CRAP SHOCK!
He was talking about what you have to *do* to build J2EE apps, not about the design of J2EE itself... Yes. So the race between Mono and Java is one of tooling. Which one's tooling is more ergonomic? I've never used Mono, I doubt it can compete with Java's tooling. For example Eclipse's many plugins; collectively they cover a ton of features. How many of these features already have interactive tooling in Mono? Maybe Mono's the academic crap. Stillborn?
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Message #131554
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Community: Leaked MS Memo: The Danger of Sharing
A dangerous plague is sweeping the land... a plague of sharing. It hides under the the seductive name of 'Free Software' or sometimes 'Open Source', but underneath it is just plain and simple sharing. I've warned the world of this threat on many occasions, but I've discovered my warnings were not broad enough. You see, this evil called sharing is not limited to just software.
You can find signs of it everywhere, along with the economic ruin that follows it. Why just the other day I discovered this place called a 'soup kitchen'. It was providing meals... for free! Just image the damage that would be inflicted on the restaurant industry if this soup kitchen thing catches on. The effects could already be seen in that neighborhood; all the other people in the soup line seemed very poor, and there was not a five star restaurant to be found anywhere nearby. I've even seen evidence of this sharing epidemic among our own employees. Just the other day one of the interns brought in muffins and gave them away, you guessed it, for free! Perhaps it would not have been so bad if she had actually purchased them from a bakery, but she actually admitted to baking them herself. She said she enjoyed doing it and was happy to give them away so other people could enjoy them to!
Can you imagine the impact on the bakery industry if this sort of thing catches on! But it doesn't stop there. She went on to thank several of her coworkers for helping her move into her new apartment. Yes, you heard correctly, people actually helped her move, FOR FREE. Image all the work lost to moving companies from this sort of activity.
Perhaps giving away free muffins seems like no big deal to you. After all, the damage that one person can do is limited to the number of muffins that one person can bake. The cost of production puts a cap on the amount of destructive sharing this person can do. But when we enter the realm of software and other forms of intangible 'intellectual property', the cost of production quickly bottoms out. After the first one, the rest are essentially free!
In a free software world, there is no room for Microsoft's 85 to 90 percent profit margin on Windows and Office. The company might be forced to survive on the thin 5 to 9 percent margins that most of the technology industry suffers with. Even worse, it might have to rely on other sources of revenue, like support services.
Imagine the impact to the economy if all that money currently being funneled to Microsoft software was instead left in the hands of our customers. Imagine all the ways in which those companies and home user might squander that money. I realize some of you out there will try and argue that spreading money around is better for the economy than concentrating it in one place, but that argument only holds water if someone besides Microsoft is capable of innovation, and we all know how silly that idea is.
In conclusion, we must all do our part to stop this plague of sharing. Just as surely as mechanized looms threatened the weaving industry of the early 19th century, the cooperative development methods of the so called free and open source software movements threaten our current proprietary software industry. The sharing must be stopped.
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2004-07-25-005-26-OP-CY-MS
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Message #131556
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Shared? Open Source? Why not it call it by its real name
Most patetique of all is the claim that Linux is a product from Linus Thorvaldsson + Open Source individuals around the world working idealistic in their spare time. Linux is a product from IBM, without Linux would be the equivalent of a bicycle. (IBM invested 2 billion dollar into Linux in 2003 alone)
Why does IBM do this? Because dumping is illegal and donating to Open Source is a way to circumvent this obstacle.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #131561
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Shared? Open Source? Why not it call it by its real name
Because dumping is illegal and donating to Open Source is a way to circumvent this obstacle. .. because dumping is illegal but bundling with a monopoly operating system is a way to circumvent this obstacle.
;-)
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
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Message #131563
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playing dirty
I knew you would say that Cameron and you are quite right too, IMO.
They are birds of the same feather.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #131584
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Java would not exist but for Microsoft
It is amazing what claims people will believe in.Java is not Sun's invention. The Zeitgeist, the time was ripe for a simplification of C++ it could just as well been any of another dozen candidates that the international web-community took up and transformed. Java was just a language for TV-top boxes at the time.Microsoft contributed more to early Java than any other company and for thanks Sun threw a lawsuit against them that it would not have won in any other country on earth but in US with its broken juridical system. Rolf ... Indeed. One step more and here we go: Java is M$ invention but they did it from behind Sun because they have their hidden reasons as allways. Than they dropped it and in the moment they dropped it's headed to become enterprise platform. It is secure too and few more features that completely miss from M$ product stack. I'd say than that it is good they dropped it. (If M$ ever had the chance to take over java than java would be another M$ lockin or would be dead by now. Fortunately it become so expensive to fight to get it than they built their own immitation read .NET)With high-priests, fanatical followers, pseudo-science, todo. Meaning that academic crap de Icaza is talking about? Above which you add religious ? I think that you and him talk about two things you don't understand (academic and reliqious). Not to mention java yet again.
The fun never stops with you.
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Message #131593
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Community: Leaked MS Memo: The Danger of Sharing
Wow, so if Open Standards is a superior product at a superior cost, we should stop competition?
Like, lets not use assembly line to make cars, but we should hand build it; this will make a lot more people employed and would need lots of factories?
You can't stop progress.
.V
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Message #131606
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'.NET runs on Windows only' is not true anymore
I know about the Longhorn stuff, so I agree with the XAML and smart client part of your comment, as for the "more Windows platform lockin", that's your hypothesis (and you're entitled to have it, of course). By vendor lockin, I mean that all this new stuff will only work on Windows and with Microsoft Tools. I think it is more than just a hypothesis. "The proof is in the pudding." Check the demo's, talks, videos on Longhorn, Yukon, etc. Everything is tightly interated causing most applictions to be written in such a way that porting is not a reality. (My theories based on observation of facts)As for hypothesis, what about this one: C# and the CLI are an ISO standard and can evolve independently from Microsoft, furthermore, if your hypothesis hold true, ASP.NET will be of less interest to Microsoft, so Mono can take over it's evolution and, voilá, we have a very productive environment for web applications, community owned, etc. That would be great for Mono and .Net. I think Novell will need more help than just itself though.
But the problems are this. ASP.Net and the basic .Net framework are a small portion of the bigger picture. Web apps are on their way out. The big guys (MS, IBM, [even] Sun, etc) are beginning to either realize or show that for, probably differing reasons, web apps are not what they are chalked up to be. User experience is typically horrid. Maintaining complex ones (ones that provide at least a somewhat good experience) is difficult. While application deployment on the client is easier with web apps, many other issues arise. Heavy load on servers. But, of course, this is just a crazy idea that came to my mind as I read your comment... Not so crazy.OK, I stand corrected, copied then recompiled. And, I insist, it's been small apps so far, I prefer to go one step at a time. Not a big thing but one more thing than what has to be done for Java "Apps".
Let us know how large apps go. Ones that use Active Directory and COM+ and Exchange and SQL Server :) I've not used Mono but I do create MS.Net apps.
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Message #131609
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Not so scary
All traditional industries have suffered big changes on their core business due to changes everywhere on their business environment/market.
Why software shouldn't?
Now cheap hardware is just a commonality, most common software will follow. And that's not scary... the cash/the employments will go to other bussines, not so common software projects or elsewhere... who knows?
Some industries like media or software giants are desperately trying to abort this trend (sometimes by unacceptable means in my opinion), but in the end they will adapt and go on ruling.
It's not scary... just change.
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Message #131618
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Community: Leaked MS Memo: The Danger of Sharing
Wow, so if Open Standards is a superior product at a superior cost, we should stop competition?Like, lets not use assembly line to make cars, but we should hand build it; this will make a lot more people employed and would need lots of factories?You can't stop progress..V <offtopic>Assembly line was progress in 1920, it allowed to provide a lot of cars for those who did not have them and wanted them (and looking at America now with total reliance on automobile I do not think that it was actually progress). From 1960-ies onwards the trend, at least in Europe, was to make everyone happy, not consumers only. And yes, Volvo had (do they still have?) individual platforms on air cushion instead of assembly line, where workers can do their job in comfort and with dignity. Why is that bad?
If someone wants to charge more simply because their employees have more fun and less stress doing their job, how bad is that? Of course, you may prefer to buy cheaper. That's how Volvo became a division of Ford (and Saab a division of GM). They could not have good social atmosphere and keep prices low. People did not want to pay more because swedish workers had one more coffee break. This is sad, I like my coffee breaks.</offtopic>
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Message #131619
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'.NET runs on Windows only' is not true anymore
Web apps are on their way out. The big guys (MS, IBM, [even] Sun, etc) are beginning to either realize or show that for, probably differing reasons, web apps are not what they are chalked up to be. User experience is typically horrid. User experience depends on implementation. Yes, it is often horrid, but that does not mean that it can be done better using existing techologies. I believe in renaissance of web apps. They can be done better. Demand beer with no froth.
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Message #131860
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Opinion: Is J2EE Academic Crap?
mmmm... maybe it is. Since he is an university drop-out ;-)
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Message #132492
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Nice talking
The only thing most of the so called Linux Expert Admirers community seams to notice about mr de Icaza is that he is somewhat rogue. He is not a very nice fellow, he leads the development of some weird microsoftish and devilish crap :o) in the holly land of linux.
What these experts do not notice is that actually the mono project stands up and fight against the quasi-total Microsoft monopoly. Potentially, a lot of traditional Microsoft shops would be probably very interested in making their solutions available on Linux and in the end this would probably conduct to anti monopolistic change lobby in Microsoft's land. But it's so much more fun to swear instead taking a look at the code and start contributing...
My opinion is the real benefit of mono is that open source is now foundation compatible with Microsoft. We have the bricks and mortar to start building the durable migration to Linux. If more experts would realize that it could be possible to end the monopoly here and now. But over the last 10 years or so these guys learned to talk so nicely about linux clear superiority and it would be a pitty to stop talking now and actually make linux a great platform.
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Message #132505
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It is cool to be different: I like CMP
...(should we introduce "crap" as a new hip term?)... Yes, that'd be <em>C</em>reate <em>R</em>ead <em>A</em>pply <em>P</em>urge.
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Message #133925
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Microsoft Malaria
linux and the BSD clones are the future.
the future is here, right now, and its been here since circa 1997.
anybody who's a serious developer understands what linux IS.
its along the lines of promethean fire.
windows is a sinking ship. A toy operating system. For end users.
its superficial, hollow, void of quality.
microsoft is a model of corporate greed and consumer exhaustion.
and its poor quality software, plain and simple, from start to finish.
nobody cares about .NET
few are upgrading their 2000 Pro desktops to XP.
fewer still are upgrading 2000 Server to 2003.
in europe, there is a preponderance of XP desktops,
but only among end users.
europe has wonderfully powerful linux shops as well.
just wait till china's linux distros mature.
people are tired of paying through the nose for crap.
dumping windows en masse my friends, thats the future.
owning the source code to YOUR OWN OPERATING SYSTEM.
thats the future.
not .NET
i do believe postings on this forum stated that MS apps would be
ported to linux. why? i mean really, who in their right mind would
invest the time and energy.
oracle, ibm, sun, hp. all embrace linux.
apache, gnu, sourceforge, jboss, cpan. why go anywhere else for software.
(we can write our own as well, with the above mentioned as guiding models.)
no one cares to support an organization such as microsoft.
no one who cares about people, and science, and true quality.
i DO feel bad about all the cold fusion programmers,
who now have to learn how to code in a real language/environment.
but everyone will be better off with open standards:
POSIX is a good place to start.
(how can you have an OS without IPC,
or a filesystem without symbolic links?)
you know, i cant run a win32 platform without cygwin.
how can you do anything meaningful without a proper shell?
the list of win32 incompatibilities bridged by ordinary people
without MS support is impressive: OpenOffice, Samba, VMWare, etc.
im doing MY best to break down as many barriers to linux as possible.
end users ARE NOT limited to using WINDOWS to run their hardware.
its obvious the beginning of the end is here, for copyrights, for the
recording industry, and especially for microsoft.
people are tired of being ripped off, used, taken for granted.
the internet is breaking down barriers which will never be tolerated again.
get over it, its a better world.
better for people in general, not for people who try to control markets.
actually, i find remarks such as "in 5 years, if linux lasts"
to be laughable.
dont you see its not going away?
au contraire mes freres, its the "noChoice" OS that they force you to use
at work that has its days numbered.
thats the rant.
microsoft and malaria.
im going to code some stateless session beans, on linux.
ps
dont forget to give BSD a try to. rock solid for routers and firewalls.
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Message #136170
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Relax guys .Net is hundreds times more crap than even core J2EE
Sure Sun has made a lot of mistakes in J2EE. But Open Source Community resolved them in such frameworks as Spring, Hibernate and many others.
But in J2EE architecture you are not bound to the any old crap and any platform, while Microsoft has bound all his Enterprise services to its platform (Active Directory, Windows services, IIS). It's like the Sun bounds all Java EE to the SunOS. This mistake of the .Net makes it extremely ugly for OSC, since developers now used to use lightweight, low coupled frameworks.
Some time ago I thought that .Net can compete with Java in OSC but now after getting in the .Net architecture I'm absolutely sure that they are loosers in this competition and after Java 1.5 will be stable and Sun reviews its J2EE architecture they will have no chance at all. Forza Java!!!!
PS. For .Net funs: how can you code stable programs without declarative Exception handling???? Why .Net does not supports any "throws" analog? Is it a platform for rapid development and slow debugging?
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