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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Artima has published a short article describing the Design-Time API for JavaBeans, which was recently approved as JSR 273. This API promises to bring VB-like ease to Java development.
In the article, Joe Nuxoll, spec lead for JSR 273 and two-time winner of the Java superbowl, says that "the lack of a vibrant Java component market may partly be the result of a cultural gap....In the Java world, the solutions are focused on class libraries, not component libraries. .NET developers, on the other hand, think of solving problems in terms of components, rather than class libraries and configuration files."
Read the article here:
http://www.artima.com/articles/designtime.html
Do you believe that a vibrant JavaBeans component market can ever take off in the Java community? Also, do you feel VB developers could be persuaded by better, more VB-like tools, to switch to Java?
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Message #169317
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Just like Delphi
One of the things I remember from Delphi (the tool serious developers used instead of the VB toy-thingie) is that you could have some modifiers so that you might compile a runtime-only version of your component/library.
We could even see people freely distributing components with limited design-time behaviour (you would have to pay to get the full version).
Design-time behaviour is VERY desirable for UI components, for example. I'll check it out...
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Message #169321
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Do you believe that a vibrant JavaBeans component market can ever take off in the Java community? Also, do you feel VB developers could be persuaded by better, more VB-like tools, to switch to Java?
No. There are plenty of extendable Java Components in the Open Source world. And there are enough closed source ones too.
I switched from VB to Java (VAJ at the time). The Java IDEs are pretty close to what VB had. And in some ways it is better. Custom properties is the only thing missing, that I can think of - and how many people really used them.
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Message #169323
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
I think they misunderstand the problem. Why Java Beans components never took off.
Borland has quite rich set of Java Beans components packaged with JBuilder.
Other companies could also create such component libraries.
I mean technically there was no problem.
But markets do not born and strive because of existance of particular technlogy.
There has to be demand for components in java world...and it is not there.
Why ?
Because main destination of components is building visual GUI. And since java sucks as a client side programming, majority of developers prefer develop client side applications on other, more suited for the task technologies, VB, dotnet, delphi, or web GUI like ASP, JSP, PHP etc.
So as you see - there's no demand.
And they can approve as many JSRs as they like. That wont change the demand, until they fix java on client side.
In other words make java clients installation as smooth and painless as possible.
Now where's JSR for that ? :))
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Message #169325
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Shouldn't that read "Threatens" instead of "Promises"?
:-)
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Message #169327
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Shouldn't that read "Threatens" instead of "Promises"?:-) LOL!
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Message #169329
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
And since java sucks as a client side programming, Hmm. It doesn't for me and many others.
Why it didn't "take off":
1. Timing. Everyone (well almost everyone) wanted to do Web dev when Java was coming into its prime.
2. Have you ever tried to create a component in VB? Yuck. Ever tried it in Swing? Lots easier.
3. You get more with Java than you did with VB. (One big one - layout managers)
VB is (or was) not great for creating client-side programming. It was great for quick and dirty.
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Message #169331
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competing with VB 3.0
And since java sucks as a client side programming, Hmm. It doesn't for me and many others.Why it didn't "take off":1. Timing. Everyone (well almost everyone) wanted to do Web dev when Java was coming into its prime.2. Have you ever tried to create a component in VB? Yuck. Ever tried it in Swing? Lots easier.3. You get more with Java than you did with VB. (One big one - layout managers)VB is (or was) not great for creating client-side programming. It was great for quick and dirty.
Hi,
I've long thought about it and discussed with fellow developers on what would make
a java IDE to be atleast as productive as VB 3.0 was. Today, I'm ashamed to say that VB 3.0 could be learnt in half a day AND a newcomer could develop a small 10 form/window application in a week's time.
Of course, MS extended VB's ease of use to Visual Interdev.
The day a JAVA IDE lets you develop a 10 form/window app in 7 days, that is the day that Java's popularity will really rocket. It is important that the application developer should be able to learn it in NOT more than 3 days.
Unless the model that you're working on will also help doing something similar to developing app for the 'net (like Visual Interdev) where
the developer who's used to the VB/Rave model of developing can reuse his development experience, there won't be big adoption/popularity.
I hope that all the popular Eclipse/NetBeans/Swing/SWT/IDEA authors latch onto this and there is effort to have them interested in this technology. So, when the JSR is released/published, there will be enough books about the technology and upcoming IDEs supporting this technology.
Those interested should start participating in this JSR as individual community members -- found that you can participate in the JCP as an individual for free.
P.S : I have been developing software for a dozen years now. started using Borland C++, OWL
and then later VC++/VB, etc and the last 6 years been doing Java -- mostly server side.
BR,
~A
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Message #169333
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programming for real men
Sorry guys, the train has gone.
The future of client programming (as long as there is going to be any demand for clients apps) belongs to the D programming language.
Check it out at,
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
So is there going to be any demand for client apps? I think so. The BIG question "Rich clients or browser applications" is going to be answered with "BOTH". A first class application in the future will come in two versions, a specialized brower version and a specialized client version.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169334
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Leting you create simple apps fast is not always good
I have witnessed a lot of failed attempts at developing complex applications with VB. The problem is that managers see a 10 form application produced in record time and then decide that they need that kind of productiviy. For release one it feels like they are geting that kind of productivity, but then eventually they hit the complexity limit of the product and the project slowly begins its decline. I have never seen a well architected, easily maintained VB app. Every one I have ever seen is a bunch of hacked together procedural scripts inside a UI. This works great for very simple apps, and sucks for complex apps. So I guess productivity depends on the kind of project you are working on
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Message #169335
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
And since java sucks as a client side programming, Hmm. It doesn't for me and many others.
I totally agree. I find client-side GUI development to be very simple and fast with NetBeans.
VB is (or was) not great for creating client-side programming. It was great for quick and dirty.
Yes, and I have seen some of the mess that can result when large projects are developed with it.
Regarding the original post, the reason that VB (at least pre-.NET) users developed with components rather than class libraries was because you could not even write class libraries in VB - the language had no inheritance.
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Message #169336
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programming for real men
Rolf, sometimes it is really hard to understand what you are trying to say.
What the new language has to do with this topic ?
Building client side apps is not about language.
It is about tools.
And besides, from what i've seen on their site this new D language does not have practically any advantages over well established python and ruby.
And lacks heavy industrial tools support C# and java have.
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Message #169337
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competing with VB 3.0
The day a JAVA IDE lets you develop a 10 form/window app in 7 days, that is the day that Java's popularity will really rocket. It is important that the application developer should be able to learn it in NOT more than 3 days.
That sounds exactly like Java Studio Creator to me.
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Message #169343
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first victim will be Mono
Back in old days VB was too easy, but C/C++ was too complicated and cumberstoned. Now we have Java and C#. But these languages come with a VM. Even if you can compile to native it is difficult and you do not really win any speed and even a simple "hello world" app takes up many MB. Also these languages are too easy! (No challenges for us real men).
Then Walter Bright introduces D, check out his credentials! http://www.walterbright.com/
Compiles to native as easily as Java/C# compiles to byte code: dmd helloworld.d
Small files (50-100 Kb with no dependencies!), speed record at The Computer Language Shootout. Interface nicely with win32, gtk and qt. Garbage collected but you can bypass it if you choose to and lots of lots of features. This is nothing made home by a talented student, whatch a professional genius in action!
In complexity it is between Java and C++. There is a lot to learn but you never feel you waist your time. I am completely won over. It has tremendous potential.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169345
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first victim will be Mono
Back in old days VB was too easy, but C/C++ was too complicated and cumberstoned. Now we have Java and C#. But these languages come with a VM. Even if you can compile to native it is difficult and you do not really win any speed and even a simple "hello world" app takes up many MB.
Strange that you have never heard of the many native code compilers for Java, as they have been around for years. GCJ is a good one.
I am completely won over. It has tremendous potential.RegardsRolf Tollerud
Poor Ruby On Rails. You were so keen on it. But it is now SO 'last month'. I guess fashions and trends change so quickly.
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Message #169346
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Steve as usual is a little behind
I though we were talking about client apps? Ruby on Rails is a very good web-applications framework.
Difficult to keep it apart? Be patient,
it will come to you.
Tip: With the D programming language you need to have an extensive knowledge of the GUI API of you choice, Win32, gtk or qt.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169347
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Have you ever tried to create a component in VB? Yuck. Ever tried it in Swing? Lots easier. Are you serious?
Creating a component in VB is a breeze. Note that I am talking about the *packaging*, not the API, which is what really defines a component.
Write your code in VB, export a DLL or an OCX and the rest of the planet can use it. No need for them to recompile it, build it, update it or whatever. Just take a look at the IDL interface and you can invoke it from any language.
HTML renderer, ftp object, graphic controls, etc... there are hundreds of these out there and I bet quite a few on your own machine, which you can discover and reuse with the OLEBrowser.
Reusable Swing components?
None.
--
Cedric
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Message #169348
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Write your code in VB, export a DLL or an OCX and the rest of the planet can use it. No need for them to recompile it, build it, update it or whatever. Just take a look at the IDL interface and you can invoke it from any language.HTML renderer, ftp object, graphic controls, etc... there are hundreds of these out there and I bet quite a few on your own machine, which you can discover and reuse with the OLEBrowser.
And managing versions of these on a Win32 machine can be a nightmare.
Reusable Swing components?None.-- Cedric
Wrong. There are plenty. A quick google shows this.
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Message #169349
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Steve as usual is a little behind
I though we were talking about client apps? Ruby on Rails is a very good web-applications framework.
You were comparing D with Java, which is mainly used server side.
Tip: With the D programming language you need to have an extensive knowledge of the GUI API of you choice, Win32, gtk or qt.RegardsRolf Tollerud
Horrible. How old fashioned! You don't need such knowledge with Java, even with native APIs such as SWT.
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Message #169350
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I picked VB before everybody and made a fortune with it
I was involved in VB3 in the beginning. We used it as a way to get away from the 4GL environments were the database and programming language was hopelessly intertwined.
Ah, VB3 with C ODBC API! What speed! What freedom! And the productivity compared to C++! Here you really could talk about driving rings around your opponent.
If you knew your Charles Petzold you could work miracles with it.
Reards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169351
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P.S.
You should have seen the face of our presumptive customers when we opened an other database with "file/Open"! :)
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Message #169352
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Reusable Swing components?None.-- Cedric Wrong. There are plenty. A quick google shows this.I have quite a few Swing applications installed on my machine. How many components from these applications can I reuse?
None.
And by reuse, again, I mean I shouldn't need the source, nor recompile it. I should be able to look up all the various subcomponents "exported" by these applications and invoke them directly from my Java application.
How many of these components do *you* have on your machine?
I bet none too, simply because Java has no standard for this.
On the other hand, I took a quick look at the controls I have on my machine (not even all written in VB, language is irrelevant for this) and there several hundreds that I can incorporate in my application in just a few minutes.
The best part of it is: I didn't even install any of these components, they are just the building blocks of applications I am using.
--
Cedric
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Message #169353
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Again, with proper quoting...
Reusable Swing components?None.-- Cedric
Wrong. There are plenty. A quick google shows this.
I have quite a few Swing applications installed on my machine. How many components from these applications can I reuse?
None.
And by reuse, again, I mean I shouldn't need the source, nor recompile it. I should be able to look up all the various subcomponents "exported" by these applications and invoke them directly from my Java application.
How many of these components do *you* have on your machine?
I bet none too, simply because Java has no standard for this.
On the other hand, I took a quick look at the controls I have on my machine (not even all written in VB, language is irrelevant for this) and there several hundreds that I can incorporate in my application in just a few minutes.
The best part of it is: I didn't even install any of these components, they are just the building blocks of applications I am using.
--
Cedric
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Message #169354
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Swing?
"Horrible. How old fashioned! You don't need such knowledge with Java, even with native APIs such as SWT"
Do you know what it feels like? Like pasta that has cooked too long.
Some of us prefer "al dente".
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Message #169355
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Again, with proper quoting... Reusable Swing components?None.-- Cedric Wrong. There are plenty. A quick google shows this.
I have quite a few Swing applications installed on my machine. How many components from these applications can I reuse?None.And by reuse, again, I mean I shouldn't need the source, nor recompile it. I should be able to look up all the various subcomponents "exported" by these applications and invoke them directly from my Java application.How many of these components do *you* have on your machine? I bet none too, simply because Java has no standard for this.On the other hand, I took a quick look at the controls I have on my machine (not even all written in VB, language is irrelevant for this) and there several hundreds that I can incorporate in my application in just a few minutes.The best part of it is: I didn't even install any of these components, they are just the building blocks of applications I am using.-- Cedric
I have no doubt you know far more about this than I do, but I do re-use Swing components without re-compilation. I just make a JComponent subclass, put it in a Jar, and add it to my NetBeans component palette. That is it.
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Message #169356
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Swing?
"Horrible. How old fashioned! You don't need such knowledge with Java, even with native APIs such as SWT"Do you know what it feels like? Like pasta that has cooked too long.Some of us prefer "al dente".
Well, if you want to hack Win32, good luck. Some of us have moved on from that stage.
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Message #169358
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Well, if you want to hack Win32, good luck. Some of us have...
Yes I do I do. Neither VB, C++. Java or C# has made me entirely comfortable the way D does.
Neither have I ever had the 100% confidence in anyone the way I have in Walter Bright.
I've found my habitat.
I am home!
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Message #169363
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Well, if you want to hack Win32, good luck. Some of us have...
Yes I do I do. Neither VB, C++. Java or C# has made me entirely comfortable the way D does. Neither have I ever had the 100% confidence in anyone the way I have in Walter Bright.I've found my habitat.I am home!
I hope you are on Walter Bright's life insurance policy. It sounds like you're banking a lot on a single individual.
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Message #169364
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D will run on both Java VM and CLR before the year has passed
The language is more or less finished. You do not think that the great players can stand still and do nothing?
What was wanted was a language that can compile both to native and to byte code. But compile to native is difficult and compile to byte code is easy. Therefore you have to start in the right end.
Not the other way around.
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Message #169371
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D will run on both Java VM and CLR before the year has passed
The language is more or less finished. You do not think that the great players can stand still and do nothing? What was wanted was a language that can compile both to native and to byte code.
Java has been doing this perfectly well for years. GCJ compiles Java directly from source code to native machine code. The Toba compiler was doing this way back in the late 90s.
But compile to native is difficult and compile to byte code is easy.
Nonsense. It is exactly the same. Both are machine codes, it just that one machine code is run on a virtual machine. 'byte code' IS a machine code. The machine code for the VM.
I have to say that I like the look of D, and it would be great to have another language like that on the JVM. But D is not good for the reasons you specify.
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Message #169372
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D will run on both Java VM and CLR before the year has passed
Nonsense. It is exactly the same. Both are machine codes, it just that one machine code is run on a virtual machine. 'byte code' IS a machine code. The machine code for the VM.I have to say that I like the look of D, and it would be great to have another language like that on the JVM. But D is not good for the reasons you specify. Agreed. D looks like an incremental work over C, but not much more.
If you are looking for a real 5GL language, take a look at Fortress (I wrote a quick review here).
I don't think it will take the world by storm but it's pioneering a lot of novel and interesting ideas that are most likely a good illustration of the things to come in programming languages.
--
Cedric
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Message #169373
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Steve, are you in any way related to Salieri?
Are you sleeping? How can you casually dismiss such a great work? Not even Bjarne Stroustrup has done something similar. Bright is the better man of the two IMO. We are talking of the first (number one) place in The Computer Language Shootout! If we make a benchmark your 10 MB compiled Java program will not even have started when the D program is finished. D have GUI programs of 200 Kb with no dependencies! No MFC DLL!
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
(a href="http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html">Converting C++ to D</a> )
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Message #169377
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Cedric, you are a hacker, the more far out and unknow the better
Cedric,
"Agreed. D looks like an incremental work over C, but not much more"
Perhaps so, but the devil is in the details.
There is an endless discourse in history, what is more important in art, originality or quality?
I have always been a staunch supporter of quality. Therefore Bach is the greatest composer that ever lived IMO.
Walter has done a practical work in first hand: realizing that all languages that has been popular has had close similarity to the C, he quietly and unobtrusive did the best compiler ever done. Word record!
Walter is the equivalent of Johan Sebastian Bach in the computer world.
Perhaps you can guide me to the Fortress newsgroup? Who has written the compiler? What place has it in the benchmarks? How many posts is it in the newsgroup?
(D=23155 posts 5 May 2005)
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169378
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Cedric, you are a hacker, the more far out and unknow the better
he quietly and unobtrusive did the best compiler ever done. I am curious to hear how you actually come to this conclusion...
--
Cedric
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Message #169382
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a work of art
Sorry Cedric, I can not prove that. It is only my pleasant experience working with it.
All things in the world can not be measured and weighted. When we talk about art you must be a connoisseur.
Who hasn't seen the little shrug an art lover does when he encounter something he doesn't approve?
But I can give you a little inkling,
1) They are the smallest files I ever seen
2) They are the fastest files I ever seen
3) They are the friendliest language I ever used to interface with the OS.
Goto http://www.walterbright.com/ and read about this guys track record. Have you ever seen such a thourough work before?
Do you have another candidate to the world best compiler writer?
If so please show me that fellows CV.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169386
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Or, put it in another way:
Do you think Walter is another "Well-meaning Impractical Theoretician with a cause" from Sun?
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Message #169388
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I picked VB before everybody and made a fortune with it
Ah, VB3 with C ODBC API! What speed! What freedom! And the productivity compared to C++! Here you really could talk about driving rings around your opponent. If you knew your Charles Petzold you could work miracles with it.
Charles Petzold? If you really knew Windows programming, you'd know that the Petzold book was complete rubbish.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
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Message #169395
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?
Ha ha, we are disrespectful today aren't we?
We are talking about *the Charles Petzold*, the famous author of "Programming Windows" of five editions are we not? I though "Look it up in Petzold" remains the decisive last word in answering questions about Windows development. At last is was for 10 years ago when I was using it..
We are obviously back in the old space again then, about the attitude of Java developers. Throw shit at Charles Petzold! Comparing some morons at Sun with one of the worlds greates geniuses!
What’s happen to you? When did you totally lost yor sense of proportions? Weblogic 30X faster that Tomcat! :)
I wonder whom you will take on next. The Pope? Jesus Christ? God?
Call my up and I will recommend some good physiatrist.
Madre Mia
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Message #169399
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a work of art
Sorry Cedric, I can not prove that. Glad we agree. And interestingly, this also applies to most of what you write.
Nothing wrong with that, by the way, I just wanted you to realize you are expressing opinions, not facts, and that -- as you sure know -- everybody has one.
Do you have another candidate to the world best compiler writer?If so please show me that fellows CV.
If the compiler is beautiful, why do you care about the CV of its author?
When you like a car, do you ask the resume of every single person who worked on it?
Your logic really baffles me.
--
Cedric
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Message #169403
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good discernment is the highest
Nothing wrong with that, by the way, I just wanted you to realize you are expressing opinions, not facts, and that -- as you sure know -- everybody has one.
Only opinions yes - but what you forget is that opinions one day becomes something else, facts that stand out like pillars. To make a correct prediction of the future is one of the few satisfactions in life.
Unfortunately for Cameron it is impossible for him to erase from TSS database all what he said and done. What we express here is not written on water, but in concrete, standing for all time. I have nothing to be ashamed of, in fact I am proud of my old opinions here in TSS from the 3 years I have been here.
Your statement though, that (Fortran) Fortress from Sun (!) should ever become mainstream will make you look like an idiot some time, mark my words. You saw it here first!
I can not understand how you can say such a thing, after all I know that you are an intelligent being, one of the best. The only thing comparable I off hand can think of is the Nobel Prize discussion we have here in Stockholm every year. When the Swedish television gathers together some Nobel prize winners for an informal discussion.
What makes me so astonished is that as soon the good scientists begin to drive over the boundaries of their fields their opinions degrade dramatically - even to the ridiculous.
It is mystic, isn't it?
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169410
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VB components == COM/DLL hell with a vengence
VB components (prior to VB.NET) are COM components. As such they get registered in the system registry of a Windows computer and are global to the machine.
VB has some hack mechanisms that are intended to try to manage COM versioning. They don't work very well (as in don't solve all the problem 100%) and a lot of VB programmers never bother to try to understand that COM registration stuff and how/why one would try to manage component versioning.
I worked for a company that attempted to build and deploy customized versions of a VB application on a Citrix Metaframe cluster. They got into a huge instability quagmire because of this issue. The mechanisms introduced in W2K and XP aren't sufficient to solve this problem. Porting this classic-style VB code to VB.NET and using private assemblies was totally not a feasible option. I rescued them by engineering the ability for VB5/VB6 applications to run in COM isolation from one another by hooking in and intercepting the COM APIs of the VB runtime DLL - hence my strict isolation solution worked with prior existing compiled VB code.
I'll take the Java CLASSPATH and Java classes any day over VB components. The Java CLASSPATH in comparison to the VB component COM/DLL hell problem makes the Java designers all look like geniuses. (Which is perhaps an ironic assessment giving the grumbling of Java programmers regarding the Java CLASSPATH/class-loader - just goes to show that many of them have evidently never seen just how hopelessly mired Microsoft invented technology can cause things to become.)
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Message #169418
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fact-checking
Your statement though, that (Fortran) Fortress from Sun (!) should ever become mainstream will make you look like an idiot some time, mark my words.
Now, I'm not going to guarantee that Cedric won't ever look like an idiot. But I'm pretty sure that when he said "I don't think [Fortress] will take the world by storm" he kinda was saying that he *does not* think that Fortress will become mainstream.
-Patrick
--
Patrick Linskey
http://solarmetric.com
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Message #169427
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finally
It was about time, the design time specification is also a big leak in the JSF specs, basically currently every vendor does his own version, which prevents that you just can plug in something like myfaces into Studio Creator and have a visual component layout.
In Swing this kind of stuff has ben overdue at least for 6-7 years.
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Message #169430
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Design-Time API Threatens to make Java more like VB
Don't bother trying to win VB developers over there are enough script kiddies doing Java allready. We'd be better of trying to figure out how to get rid of those instead of trying to bring in more!
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Message #169435
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Again, with proper quoting... Reusable Swing components?None.-- Cedric Wrong. There are plenty. A quick google shows this.
I have quite a few Swing applications installed on my machine. How many components from these applications can I reuse?None.And by reuse, again, I mean I shouldn't need the source, nor recompile it. I should be able to look up all the various subcomponents "exported" by these applications and invoke them directly from my Java application.How many of these components do *you* have on your machine?
Come on Cedric, then you most be doing something wrong...
Let me count my latest swing application: I use JCalendar, ImageButton, JTableForEdit, Flex1Button, AnimatedCardLayout, NeonBorder, ShadowBorder, JPanelWithBackgound, JCheckBox3 (three state checkbox) and WatermarkViewport.
I say those constitute components.
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Message #169439
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?
Throw shit at Charles Petzold! Comparing some morons at Sun with one of the worlds greates geniuses!
Rolf, if you think that Petzold is a genius, then you've pretty much explained the extent of your technical capabilities, as if you hadn't already made your lack of ability abundantly clear.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
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Message #169441
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Design-Time API Threatens to make Java more like VB
Don't bother trying to win VB developers over there are enough script kiddies doing Java allready. We'd be better of trying to figure out how to get rid of those instead of trying to bring in more!
I disagree. People used VB because it enabled them to quickly do things that were valuable for their businesses. I would like to see Java have more capabilities to help people quickly do things that are valuable for their businesses. However, we shouldn't fool ourselves and call all these things "Java" because if these people have to drop down the programming level that Java provides by default, they'll tend to run away screaming. In other words, we need higher level constructs built on the Java platform that provide simple programming options, much like VBA allowed people to customize and script applications. (How to keep it from becoming a mess is a different question.)
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
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Message #169445
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Design-Time API Promises to make Java more like VB
Are you serious? Yes.
Creating a component in VB is a breeze. Note that I am talking about the *packaging*, not the API, which is what really defines a component.Write your code in VB, export a DLL or an OCX and the rest of the planet can use it. I wish it was that easy. (btw, dlls are not for components). In VB you had to create UserControls. What a pain. If you developed them for yourself, you really needed a separate machine. The same went for dlls. To top it off, try refactoring one of those babies. Just watch your registry fill up.
Lets see, how do I do that in Java? Ummm. Export as jar. MAN, that was tough.
No need for them to recompile it, build it, update it or whatever. Just take a look at the IDL interface and you can invoke it from any language.HTML renderer, ftp object, graphic controls, etc...
there are hundreds of these out there and I bet quite a few on your own machine, which you can discover and reuse with the OLEBrowser. How many built with VB? very few. How many built with C++? Most.
Reusable Swing components?None. http://weblogs.java.net/blog/hansmuller/archive/2004/10/and_then_there.html
Cedric, I have been doing VB development since 94. I have taught VB classes and mentored other developers and teams at multiple companies on VB dev. I got my VB Desktop MCP in one try without studying a lick. :)
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Message #169447
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Cameron "Weblogic is 30x faster than Tomcat" Purdy
Actually I was comparing the poor souls at Sun with Walter Bright, a bona fide genius or what do you think? One of your famous misunderstandings again?
"How to keep it from becoming a mess is a different question"
If I one day decides to compile a collection of "Cameron’s famous remarks at TSS", the you will see how I can make good use of the English word mess, I am sure that you are quite alone in having made so many stupid and incorrect remarks. Not to speak of your un-English behavior.
Regarding Charles Petzold, why don't we comparing him to the staff at Sun? You know that for a long time they hired people without a proper screening etc. But by sheer coincidence (mistake?) they probably hired some good people. However they all have left now! What you want to call the people left working at Sun? Care to venter a suggestion?
But what is important is not to compare single persons, but company with company! Try to compare Sun with Microsoft to get your proportions right. :)
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Message #169450
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Have you ever written a compiler?
Nothing wrong with that, by the way, I just wanted you to realize you are expressing opinions, not facts, and that -- as you sure know -- everybody has one. Only opinions yes - but what you forget is that opinions one day becomes something else, facts that stand out like pillars. To make a correct prediction of the future is one of the few satisfactions in life.Unfortunately for Cameron it is impossible for him to erase from TSS database all what he said and done. What we express here is not written on water, but in concrete, standing for all time. I have nothing to be ashamed of, in fact I am proud of my old opinions here in TSS from the 3 years I have been here. Your statement though, that (Fortran) Fortress from Sun (!) should ever become mainstream will make you look like an idiot some time, mark my words. You saw it here first! I can not understand how you can say such a thing, after all I know that you are an intelligent being, one of the best. The only thing comparable I off hand can think of is the Nobel Prize discussion we have here in Stockholm every year. When the Swedish television gathers together some Nobel prize winners for an informal discussion.What makes me so astonished is that as soon the good scientists begin to drive over the boundaries of their fields their opinions degrade dramatically - even to the ridiculous.It is mystic, isn't it?
RegardsRolf Tollerud
I haven't looked at D, but from all your posts, you seem to think you know about compilers. So my question to you is this.
Have you ever written a compiler in your 20 years of programming?
I'm no experts, but writing a full blown compiler isn't easy. Writing a great compiler is even harder. Back in college I was lucky enough to meet an individual who wrote a commercial compiler with his father before he turned 16. This individual was a computer science major and coding for him was trivial. In other words he could program professionally in a half dozen languages before he started college.
Having written a few rule compilers, your comments and remarks give me the impression you have zero practical knowledge with writing compilers.
I'm sure that impression is wrong, so feel free to demonstrate your skill :)
peter
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Message #169455
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?
Throw shit at Charles Petzold! Comparing some morons at Sun with one of the worlds greates geniuses! Rolf, if you think that Petzold is a genius, then you've pretty much explained the extent of your technical capabilities, as if you hadn't already made your lack of ability abundantly clear.Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
I think Rolf is trying compensate it by shooting opinions, quotes and verbal abuse at all directions. Pity us.
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Message #169459
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Rolf "AutoCAD" Tollerud
I am sure that you are quite alone in having made so many stupid and incorrect remarks.
This from the guy who said 'AutoCAD is OOP's ancestral beginning' and 'EBay is the most expensive IT project in history'. You never let facts or reality get in the way of giving us a good laugh.
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Message #169463
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Reality is too boring
I am sure that you are quite alone in having made so many stupid and incorrect remarks.
This from the guy who said 'AutoCAD is OOP's ancestral beginning' and 'EBay is the most expensive IT project in history'. You never let facts or reality get in the way of giving us a good laugh.
I think it's quite entertaining to read Rolf's comments. It's fun to see someone claim, the same query against a database with 50K rows will be just fine for a database with 10million rows. It's always entertaining to ask a technical question and get a non-sense quote from some obscure roman philosopher. Life would be way too boring without some spice.
peter
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Message #169469
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good discernment is the highest
What makes me so astonished is that as soon the good scientists begin to drive over the boundaries of their fields their opinions degrade dramatically - even to the ridiculous. It's happened to you quite a few times as well.
our statement though, that (Fortran) Fortress from Sun (!) should ever become mainstream will make you look like an idiot some time, mark my words. You really need to work on reading what people write more carefully. Here is what I wrote:
I don't think it will take the world by storm
--
Cedric
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Message #169474
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good discernment is the highest
It's happened to you quite a few times as well.
I disagree, Rolf has always been focused squarely on his field of expertese.
I am surprised nobody collected a library of Rolfisms and made T-shirts, coffee mugs, and caps and sold them on ThinkGeek.
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Message #169477
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Cameron "Weblogic is 30x faster than Tomcat" Purdy
Actually I was comparing the poor souls at Sun with Walter Bright, a bona fide genius or what do you think?
I have not commented on Walter Bright. I am sure he is bright, no pun intended, but I've never heard of him before this thread.
If I one day decides to compile a collection of "Cameron's famous remarks at TSS", the you will see how I can make good use of the English word mess, I am sure that you are quite alone in having made so many stupid and incorrect remarks.
Other than insulting ninjas by calling you a ninja, could you please point to an incorrect remark that I have made, and also the proof that it is incorrect?
Regarding Charles Petzold, why don't we comparing him to the staff at Sun?
Charles Petzold is an author of an introductory level programming book. What does he have to do with anything?
You know that for a long time [Sun] hired people without a proper screening etc. But by sheer coincidence (mistake?) they probably hired some good people. However they all have left now! What you want to call the people left working at Sun? Care to venter a suggestion?But what is important is not to compare single persons, but company with company! Try to compare Sun with Microsoft to get your proportions right. :)
You are a pathetic fanboy. I don't care to waste my time arguing about two big companies that I don't work for or invest in. If you want to play fanboy, go to the Anandtech forums and argue about AMD versus Intel, or Nvidia versus ATI.
Look, you've already proven your complete technical ignorance. Don't insult yourself in public any more than you already have.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
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Message #169479
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first victim will be Mono
I am completely won over. It has tremendous potential.RegardsRolf Tollerud
Does that mean you will be leaving us soon?
-Pete
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Message #169481
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Walter Bright
I knew his name sounded familiar. He created the game 'Empire'. Boy did I spend a bunch 'O' time playing that.
-Pete
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Message #169482
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simple apps fast not good
Speed can be a critical factor in development. VB code can be written to be maintainable, or not. Believe me, I've seen plenty of unmaintainable Java code. The thing is, if you can go fast, you can get a foothold in a market, where your well architected brethren starve to death trying reach perfection.
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Message #169484
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simple apps fast not good
VB code can be written to be maintainable, or not. The VB IDE makes it very difficult (right next to impossible) to have maintainable code.
Try renaming a class or form.
Try having a large project and then page through the object list (no way to group other than by type).
Try having a form be both and MDI child and a modal form.
If VB(classic) was so good, Microsoft would not have dropped it for VB.Net.
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Message #169486
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VB.net != bad VB
VB code can be written to be maintainable, or not. The VB IDE makes it very difficult (right next to impossible) to have maintainable code.Try renaming a class or form. Try having a large project and then page through the object list (no way to group other than by type).Try having a form be both and MDI child and a modal form.If VB(classic) was so good, Microsoft would not have dropped it for VB.Net.
Even though I don't like VB. I think the argument that VB.NET exist and therefore VB may be bad isn't necessarily a valid or good argument. MS has to come out with new versions of VB to make money. Regardless of how good or bad VB was, VB.NET does not provide credible proof to me. Since there are opinions for and against VB.NET, it would be hard to prove VB.NET is a clear winner. But really, I don't think concensus is a good way to measure either. I'd lean towards a case-by-case evaluation of whether or not VB was sufficient.
peter
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Message #169487
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DLL hell is not Windows-specific
I rescued them by engineering the ability for VB5/VB6 applications to run in COM isolation from one another by hooking in and intercepting the COM APIs of the VB runtime DLL - hence my strict isolation solution worked with prior existing compiled VB code.I'll take the Java CLASSPATH and Java classes any day over VB components. How does the CLASSPATH (a list of absolute path names... seriously) address the versioning problem, exactly?
It doesn't.
You have the very same problems in Java that you have with COM and that you have with shared libraries in general. There is nothing in Java that lets you guarantee you are using the right version of the library and there's even nothing to allow you to look up any library at all, for that matter.
There are also no guidelines and no enforcement coming from the VM to help you solve this problem.
In these two regards, COM is ahead of anything we have in Java.
The reason why "DLL hell" is more known on Windows than in Java is because on Windows, end users are exposed to it every day. In the Java world, only Java developers are ever confronted to it and they can usually find their way around.
The bottom line is: there is no easy way around "DLL hell". It's not a Windows-specific problem and between never using shared libraries or always using shared libraries and appling certain rules, there is an whole spectrum of solutions that all have their pros and cons.
--
Cedric
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Message #169492
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VB.net != bad VB
Regardless of how good or bad VB was, VB.NET does not provide credible proof to me. Maybe not. But it should make you go HMMMM.
Maybe I should have said VB.Net/C#.
I am not saying that VB being "bad" is the only reason that they created .Net. They could have just enhanced VB it was really that good. The problem with VB is that it can be separated from its IDE. They go together.
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Message #169494
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DLL hell is not Windows-specific
Cedric, Have you ever developed and deployed a COM app? One that used common libraries?
I have. And it is nuts. You install an app and get all the dlls and ocx's right. Then install another app on hope it doesn't break yours because they might require an incompatible dll or just install an incompatible one. And have fun trying to figure out what broke your app. No stack track. No good error.
The previous poster should have said classpath and NOT CLASSPATH. I do not depend on the System classpath. Because in that instance you are right about dll hell.
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Message #169498
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Cameron "Weblogic is 30x faster than Tomcat" Purdy
<sarcasm>
Who is this Rolf that people speak of? Does he post on this site? I think I've read every posting that have made sense. I don't recall ever seeing his signature associated with any of them.
</sarcasm>
John Murray
Sobetech
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Message #169508
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simple apps fast not good
Some people are not happy MS dropped classic VB:
http://classicvb.org/
Joel on Software's quote at the bottom of the page sums it up well enough.
Regards,
Henrique Steckelberg
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Message #169510
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simple apps fast not good
Some people are not happy MS dropped classic VB:http://classicvb.org/Joel on Software's quote at the bottom of the page sums it up well enough.Regards,Henrique Steckelberg
Yeah I know. I was on some VB boards a few years ago. Major wailing. Some people just don't want to think or learn new ways. People will be happy to know that VB.Net is stinky in its own right. Some things I hate about the VB IDE have been expertly incorped into VB.Net.
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Message #169513
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any more Camerons and I turn into a misanthrope
"Look, you've already proven your complete technical ignorance. Don't insult yourself in public any more than you already have"'
And you have yet again presented yourself as a dishonest person. I know that I any time can write an application that beat the hell out of your. That is valid for all aspects, speed, user functionality and pure beauty. That I can prove anytime. Please take up the challenge. I produce faster. I produce smaller.
You are different from the others because you know that Weblogic is not 30x faster that Tomcat and all the other shit you have said about EJB and elephant containers and so on. You are a true genuine dishonest hypocrite.
I know that you are only protecting you investment and want to go on selling "the worlds most expensive hash map". But to degrade yourself to that extent is really too much. Don’t you have any dignity man?
"You are a pathetic fanboy"
On the contrary, unlike you I persevere the truth
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Message #169518
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any more Camerons and I turn into a misanthrope
"Look, you've already proven your complete technical ignorance. Don't insult yourself in public any more than you already have"'
And you have yet again presented yourself as a dishonest person. I know that I any time can write an application that beat the hell out of your. That is valid for all aspects, speed, user functionality and pure beauty. That I can prove anytime. Please take up the challenge. I produce faster. I produce smaller.
If you need the URL, it's http://forums.anandtech.com/ ..
You are different from the others because you know that Weblogic is not 30x faster that Tomcat and all the other shit you have said about EJB and elephant containers and so on.
Temper, temper ..
Please quote the section in which I said "that Weblogic is 30x faster that Tomcat" and then disprove the information that I provided. It is on the public record, is it not? What could be easier for you to do than to quote what I said and prove it wrong?
"You are a pathetic fanboy"
On the contrary, unlike you I persevere the truth
http://forums.anandtech.com/ .. go get 'em tiger!
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
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Message #169520
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But where's the facts?
On the contrary, unlike you I persevere the truth
Cameron has on numerous occasions given solid technical answers. He has demonstrated experience and depth in several areas. If you believe any statement made by any member of the community to be false or inaccurate, then simply show concrete proof.
I've yet to see you provide concrete proof you know how to write high availability and high performance applications. You may consider writing rich clients for a small 50-100K row database to be the same as writing an application to handle 100K bulk transactions in one day, but they are clearly different. The techniques employed to solve these two different classes of problems are very different. Anyone that has actually work on these two classes of problems know this first hand.
Honestly, go read the articles on MSDN that address HAV applications. They clearly state how different these problems are. Or are you saying that even MSDN is wrong and that Bill gates and Microsoft are lying about the difference between a rich client and a HAV server application?
peter
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Message #169525
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in all important matters I have been right
In the three years Cameron and I have discussed –
1) Cameron bitterly defended EJB, now Spring and other light frameworks rules.
2) Cameron said "nobody uses it" referring to .NET, now .NET has surpassed J2EE in new projects.
3) Cameron said that stateless server applications "are no real applications", statesness is now in fashion of the day with SOA.
4) Cameron say that "scripting" languages like Perl and PHP can not handle big sites, now livejournal.com with 50 million hits a day has a better uptime than TSS.
5) Cameron lied recently* (July 16, 2004) that Tomcat used to be 30x slower than Weblogic
6) Cameron believed Oracle when Oracle claimed they had turned "28x slower" to "28x faster" with a few tweaks of the code.
7) Cameron claims that Java is faster that C# :)
8) Cameron denies that Sun has problem with fixing bugs etc.
9) Cameron claims falsely that Microsoft has become i big bureaucracy where people are feeling uncomfortable
10) All tests, studies and benchmarks are bough by Microsoft according to Cameron.
*http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=27341#130452
And so on and so on, I could go on forever. What shall I say?
Why do you associate yourself with Cameron Peter?
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169526
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any more Camerons and I turn into a misanthrope
I produce faster. I produce smaller. Are you still talking about coding? Not sure, because I have heard rumors ...
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Message #169528
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I gladly put my foot in my mouth
What shall I say?Why do you associate yourself with Cameron Peter?
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
it has nothing to do with cameron. I'm just a busy body who feels like reminding you the best defense/offense is to stick to the facts. Selectively quoting cameron out of context hardley proves anything to me.
every technique has a weakness. many people have tried to point out the limits of each technique. even though the debate gets heated, the point is to understand the limitations and learn where each method breaks. Of course we all make mistakes and have to bash our heads to learn the hard lessons, but calling cameron names doesn't really accomplish anything. if you believe that distribute maps is bad, then prove it technically.
for your information, the domain of distributed maps has been studied for close to 2 decades now. Stanford, MIT, Caltech and several other univerisities have studied it in depth. There are numerous papers on ACMQueue on this topic. From my limited knowledge of this field, the claims cameron makes are in line with the existing research I've read.
enjoy
peter
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Message #169533
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observations on the human nature
For many years ago I used to play Tournament Bridge, and there, as is my wont I made a couple of anthropological observations. You are of course familiar to the form of bridge; 2 players play against 2 players. Many pairs have played together for years.
I further noticed that those pairs often consist of archetypical roles (you have read your Jung I suppose?) it is the "Teacher", and the "Pupil". No matter that the balance of competence may have changed considerably in the years since they began playing they always keep to the aboriginal setup.
So how does it work? The "Teacher" pontificates at length before every deal, what the "Student" should do and what he should not do. And then comes the deal. Let us say that the "Teacher" just for some minutes ago has shared with the "Student" some important facts of life that he wants to hammer in, and the result of following the advice is catastrophe, utterly destruction. They are out of the competition.
Now here comes the interesting. Do you think that the "Student" now revolt and protest vehemently? No. Nobody says anything. The matter is not even broached. The "Student" meekly accepts that this occasion was an "exception", that goes without saying. Funny isn't it? What does it learn us of the human nature?
That is the explanation to how Cameron can go on year after year saying things that is just plain horrible wrong without anybody contracting him or protesting.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169534
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in all important matters you have been wrong
so on and so on, I could go on forever. Sure you could, this list is just an enumeration of exaggeration, fabrications and out of context quotations.
But it doesn't matter. Whether you like it or not, Cameron is respected here because he has shown his expertise on more than one occasion. I am still trying hard to figure out what *your* technical expertise is, besides being a rabid advocacy poster and expert troll, that is.
--
Cedric
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Message #169537
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Does your mom know your using the computer?
I know that I any time can write an application that beat the hell out of your. That is valid for all aspects, speed, user functionality and pure beauty. That I can prove anytime. Please take up the challenge. I produce faster. I produce smaller.
Rolf,
You act and talk like a 15 year old. I have no problem with you disagreeing with anyone,but don't waste our time. I haven't seen you post anything yet that helps anyone get anything done. You obviously don't have a job, because you spend all your time arguing about obscure, irrelivent crud.
But, that's all I have time for, I gotta get back to work.
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Message #169538
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the truth is all that matter
what does it matter what one do or not do?
But Cedric, in this thread just on this occasion you have temporary stepped into my role. What you write about VB components is the plain truth IMO, yet nobody agrees with you and you are attacked. How does it feel? To be right and be persecuted? Just like Dr. Semmelweiss in Vienna in 1847!
Isn't the truth the all above important?
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Message #169539
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observations on the human nature
For many years ago I used to play Tournament Bridge...
<snip> Wrong address, you probably meant to send this to your therapist.
--
Cedric
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Message #169542
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the truth is all that matter
But Cedric, in this thread just on this occasion you have temporary stepped into my role. What you write about VB components is the plain truth IMO, yet nobody agrees with you and you are attacked. How does it feel? To be right and be persecuted? Just like Dr. Semmelweiss in Vienna in 1847! Isn't the truth the all above important? You know, this underlines fundamental differences between you and me.
First of all, I never think that I detain the absolute truth. I don't even believe there *is* an absolute truth. Only personal experiences.
Second, I don't feel attacked when somebody disagrees with me. I just think... well, "interesting, this person disagrees with me".
I never learn something when somebody agrees with me, so I welcome dissent, especially when it's worded respectfully and that the person makes good points (which the posters above have made).
--
Cedric
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Message #169545
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the truth is all that matter
Ah, excuse me, I forgot that in your relationship with Cameron you are the "Pupil".
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Message #169546
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the truth is all that matter
what does it matter what one do or not do? If what one do doesn't matter, why the hell are you wasting your time here? Or do you believe you're achieving anything by pestering this forum like this?Isn't the truth the all above important? In your case, trolling seems to take precedence over anything else.
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Message #169550
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Delphi, Workshop and new IDEs
Don't bother trying to win VB developers over there are enough script kiddies doing Java allready. We'd be better of trying to figure out how to get rid of those instead of trying to bring in more! I disagree. People used VB because it enabled them to quickly do things that were valuable for their businesses. I would like to see Java have more capabilities to help people quickly do things that are valuable for their businesses. However, we shouldn't fool ourselves and call all these things "Java" because if these people have to drop down the programming level that Java provides by default, they'll tend to run away screaming. In other words, we need higher level constructs built on the Java platform that provide simple programming options, much like VBA allowed people to customize and script applications. (How to keep it from becoming a mess is a different question.)Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
Hi,
Delphi was a class act and did all(most) the right things to fix issues with VB and it came from a respected company(Borland). But Delphi was (only) an implementation which had some specification -- somewhat like Hibernate.
Delphi had the power that geeks could use PLUS the component architecture and the library that enterprises covet. Even 3rd party vendors started writing Delphi components (including for their Linux port -- Kylix)
The JCP community(and not just sun) should try to do what Delphi did(and maybe more). Now that Java as a language is mature, this has even fewer risk -- it's just a few JSRs and a new IDE that can build RCP and internet/intranet applications.
BEA's Weblogic Workshop was an attempt towards that end and if the whole JCP community gets behind this, we can achieve more.
I hope in a few years, Java will have 1000s of components (yes, 1000s since the range of problems that Java adresses can easily fill hundreds of thousands!!).
BR,
~A
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Message #169554
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Really, I wouldn't consider myself a pupil
For many years ago I used to play Tournament Bridge, and there, as is my wont I made a couple of anthropological observations. You are of course familiar to the form of bridge; 2 players play against 2 players. Many pairs have played together for years.I further noticed that those pairs often consist of archetypical roles (you have read your Jung I suppose?) it is the "Teacher", and the "Pupil". No matter that the balance of competence may have changed considerably in the years since they began playing they always keep to the aboriginal setup.So how does it work? The "Teacher" pontificates at length before every deal, what the "Student" should do and what he should not do. And then comes the deal. Let us say that the "Teacher" just for some minutes ago has shared with the "Student" some important facts of life that he wants to hammer in, and the result of following the advice is catastrophe, utterly destruction. They are out of the competition.Now here comes the interesting. Do you think that the "Student" now revolt and protest vehemently? No. Nobody says anything. The matter is not even broached. The "Student" meekly accepts that this occasion was an "exception", that goes without saying. Funny isn't it? What does it learn us of the human nature?That is the explanation to how Cameron can go on year after year saying things that is just plain horrible wrong without anybody contracting him or protesting.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
My area of focus is rather different than Cameron, so I'd have to switch to become a pupil. Though honestly, I'm more interested in Rule engines, compilers, pattern matching algorithms and relational theory. I've researched distributed maps in an attempt to find solutions to challenging scalability problems. You know, those boring problems I keep ranting on about. The ones with real-time requirements and huge databases with millions and hundreds of millions of rows of data.
If you understood these domains, you'd realize how different the problem domain is. The ACM really does have some good articles with solid scientific research with proper controls. Not those impractical theoriticians you keep bashing. There are plenty of impractical people in academia and in the corporate world. There are also some really bright people who take time to do things thoroughly.
I would challenge you to use the scientific method to prove Cameron's claims are wrong. I'll gladly admit I am wrong, when you provide repeatable, reliable proof. by the way, you can download a trial version of coherence and easily prove it doesn't work. Not that i think you can prove coherence is wrong or bad, since it's clear tangosol has taken great care to produce a solid product.
peter
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Message #169555
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traumatic experience
Peter,
I agree to that you are probably good in your work. But it is not my field - I am making applications, killing client apps that take the breath out of my customers. You have no interest in my work, I have no interest in yours. It is as it is.
That has nothing to do with the ten very important areas where I showed Cameron to be wrong, and mark my words, I was just varming up. Cameron has always been wrong. On the other hand, that doesn't make his product a bad product. Kind of wishful thinking I suppose.
But why are you pestering me? If you think you can impress me think again! Here is another little anecdote clartfy the situaion:
(from true life)
One young journalist (his name was Oscar Hedlund actually) was going to interview Andre Segovia, and he was so nervous that he had has spent weeks thinking out the questions. Then he meets Segovia and the first thing he asks is, "What are your opinions of the medieval tertiary tuning?"
Segovia looks at him, takes the guitar, and handles it over to him and says, "please play a little while I am trying to find out what you were saying".
Needless to say, after that mr Hedlund always kept a low profile the rest of his life.
Regards
Rolf (Segovia) Tollerud
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Message #169557
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Impress you?
Peter,
I agree to that you are probably good in your work. But it is not my field - I am making applications, killing client apps that take the breath out of my customers. You have no interest in my work, I have no interest in yours. It is as it is.
That has nothing to do with the ten very important areas where I showed Cameron to be wrong, and mark my words, I was just varming up. Cameron has always been wrong. On the other hand, that doesn't make his product a bad product. Kind of wishful thinking I suppose.
But why are you pestering me? If you think you can impress me think again! Here is another little anecdote clartfy the situaion:
(from true life)One young journalist (his name was Oscar Hedlund actually) was going to interview Andre Segovia, and he was so nervous that he had has spent weeks thinking out the questions. Then he meets Segovia and the first thing he asks is, "What are your opinions of the medieval tertiary tuning?" Segovia looks at him, takes the guitar, and handles it over to him and says, "please play a little while I am trying to find out what you were saying". Needless to say, after that mr Hedlund always kept a low profile the rest of his life.
Regards
Rolf (Segovia) Tollerud
I never claimed to be good either, nor do I care to make any such claims. Honestly, everyone makes mistakes and everyone is wrong a couple of times a day. I don't see the point in telling someone they are wrong. If an individual is reasonable, they'll see they are wrong. Someone unreasonable won't admit they are wrong even in the face of strong evidence.
I don't see how Segovia has anything to do with technology or the discussion at hand. I pester you in the naive hope that one day you'll answer questions with solid facts. Plus, I enjoy playing devil's advocate.
I've been wrong plenty of times, but every now and then I get something right. Just because a person makes mistakes, doesn't mean someone "has always been wrong." That's a rather bi-polar view on life. Nothing is purely right/wrong, or black/white. How about trying to stay on topic and stick to technical facts?
peter
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Message #169559
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DLL hell is not Windows-specific
I rescued them by engineering the ability for VB5/VB6 applications to run in COM isolation from one another by hooking in and intercepting the COM APIs of the VB runtime DLL - hence my strict isolation solution worked with prior existing compiled VB code.I'll take the Java CLASSPATH and Java classes any day over VB components. How does the CLASSPATH (a list of absolute path names... seriously) address the versioning problem, exactly?It doesn't.You have the very same problems in Java that you have with COM and that you have with shared libraries in general. -- Cedric
It does quite simply - the solution to versioning is to avoid sharing modules that are subject to being present in various generations and instead use private copies - as in .NET's private assemblies approach. The classpath makes it very straightforward as a mechanism that can be used to construe a set of Java libraries that are of known origin and version. IOW, Java has eschewed Microsoft's COM concept of registering components in a global registration system for the purpose of sharing them.
Sure, one could chose to share some group of Java libraries but at any time a private copy - thanks to the classpath approach - can be made use of such that they are of well known origin. Because there's no global registration involved one doesn't have to work out any scheme for requesting a particular version or negotiate hoping to find a version that might be acceptable. All that hokey and senseless complexity is avoided.
COM compounds its problems because meta information (the typelib) for binding purposes is also registered (globally). This leads to problems when the attempt is made to run different versions of a VB component on the same machine. All the VB developers I've ever been around have not been enough on the ball to know how to try and manage this properly. When one starts dealing in hundreds VB COM DLLs, then it becomes too much even for a those that attempt to do versioning carefully using the native capabilities of COM and VB. Running each VB app in complete isolation, in contrast, is easy and bullet proof - if the capability to pull this off exist (from Microsoft, of course, it does not exist except when choosing to migrate to VB.NET).
Stability and robustness counts for vastly more than the ability to share code. It took Microsoft a decade to eventually concede that point as with W2K they began to introduce modest isolation features - and then fully conceded the point by providing for rigorous private assemblies for .NET.
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Message #169560
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maybe Cameron just tell people what they want to hear
Peter,
For the last time. I know enough technical facts to do my work and don't care about the rest. Especially as it is highly controversial what is facts or not. For example, this forum can not even agree upon the color of an orange!
This whole debate started because Cedric said that my statements for the D language "were opinions only". Then I just meekly pointed out that my opinions in the past had turned out pretty accurate. My background makes me better suited to look into the mist of the future. That is my claim and I have proven it.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #169561
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Walter Bright
<blockqoute>I have not commented on Walter Bright. I am sure he is bright, no pun intended, but I've never heard of him before this thread.
</blockqoute>
He wrote the lean and mean Datalight C compiler for MS-DOS a few geological ages ago. I bought a copy at the time because I liked to collect such things.
Walter Bright
Engineer, Digital Mars
http://www.cmpevents.com/SDw4/a.asp?option=G&V=3&id=228826
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Message #169565
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Java studio creator
Somebody compared ease of use with the Java Studio Creator.
I had a look at it, it has potential, but in its current state it is close at the edge of uselessness, part of it is to blame for a lack of standardized component description we discuss here.
Studio Creator has two big problems:
a) It reduces itself to the most basic JSF components, no extended ones. Which means, it is good for simple hello world programs, but you run into JSF user control coding hell (and believe me JSF control coding is hell, with too many code artefacts for one control, just like every jsf coding without tool support is hell) if you need more than the few standard basic html controls.
You cannot really add third party control sets to the tool, because you cannot display them visually, because up until recently there was no real spec on how the Creator handles the controls in the UI builder, and there still is no standard.
The second biggest problem is its total reliance on JDBC and automated JTA for transactions, while most webapps currently are done with the defacto standard hibernate. Although we will probably never see Hibernate support in it, supporting JDO would even help to get out of the JDBC hell this product is in.
I will give a straigt example:
You try to code a simple master view: You layout the form
a table control is there:
Within 5 minutes you run into the classical problem paging:
No paging support from within the control, you start to search on the net and you can find various libs which add this control, wham you run into the next problem, no visual layout of the controls, although you can reach them within the editor.
Next problem, you dock the table and the query to the control, next problem the gluing code docks a result set onto the control, that basically means no control over your transactions and open connections. I am not sure (since I dont know jta and the code of the reference implementation too much), but I have the eery feeling the connections are kept open until timeout that way, which is a no go once you have more than a handful of users.
So basically you run into very similar problems with the creator as in Visual basic (dread awful api for user interface element creations, you run into limits if you cannot revert to third party controls, the application seems to have scaling problems on the db side, you run easily into db dependency hell thanks to the usage of plain jdbc)
But that is mostly the fault of the Creator itself, which has nice half baked concepts but lacks severely in the execution departement.
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Message #169572
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Java studio creator
Somebody compared ease of use with the Java Studio Creator.I had a look at it, it has potential, but in its current state it is close at the edge of uselessness, part of it is to blame for a lack of standardized component description we discuss here.....
You make a lot of good points. I would not go as far as to say it is that useless, as I have seen people happily develop apps with it, but I do agree with a lot of what you say, particularly about the lack of Hibernate or JDO integration.
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Message #169573
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maybe Cameron just tell people what they want to hear
Peter, For the last time. I know enough technical facts to do my work and don't care about the rest. Especially as it is highly controversial what is facts or not. For example, this forum can not even agree upon the color of an orange!This whole debate started because Cedric said that my statements for the D language "were opinions only". Then I just meekly pointed out that my opinions in the past had turned out pretty accurate. My background makes me better suited to look into the mist of the future. That is my claim and I have proven it.RegardsRolf Tollerud
May I meekly point out that a lot of your opinions have been patent nonsense. Who can forget the now-classic "AutoCAD is OOP's ancestral beginning" and wonderfuly self-contradictory posts in which you berate ORM then praise Ruby on Rails. (interestingly and ironically, this even makes your statement "my opinions in the past had turned out pretty accurate" inaccurate). Before you start to look at the future, you should work harder at being able to look at the present and the past.
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Message #169587
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more nonsense from Steve
You definitely have spent too much time with the wrong sort of people Steve. You decide for yourself on the flimsiest grounds that you have won a discussion and gleefully boast of it everywhere.
Applications suited to OO according to Alexander Jerusalem: "For a windowing system or a flight simulator or a computer game or a graphics package, encapsulation is a desirable means for managing dependencies. These applications own their data, but business applications don't"
But isn’t that obvious, even for a 7 year old? So you think that the stupid getters/setters classes of ORM qualify as OO? Please don't make me laugh.
And you have not produced any evidence that eBay uses EJB. I maintain that eBay is one of the costliest projects ever in computer business, it certainly is one of the biggest mistakes of all time. MS could probably have built the whole system in 3-4 months.
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Message #169589
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traumatic experience
That has nothing to do with the ten very important areas where I showed Cameron to be wrong, and mark my words, I was just varming up.
It's pretty obvious that you were just warming up, since you forgot a couple of little things:
1) To quote what I said, and ..
2) To prove that it was wrong.
I'm sure you've figured out by now that I am just trying to waste your time, since you will be unable to achieve those two very simple steps above.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Cluster your POJOs!
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Message #169598
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more nonsense from Steve
Applications suited to OO according to Alexander Jerusalem: "For a windowing system or a flight simulator or a computer game or a graphics package, encapsulation is a desirable means for managing dependencies. These applications own their data, but business applications don't" Shouldn't and don't are two different things. Data without an application is useless and an application without data is useless.
The purpose of an ORM is NOT to separate the application from the data but to separate the persistance mechanism from the domain logic.
So you think that the stupid getters/setters classes of ORM qualify as OO? I highly doubt Steve thinks accessors make an object OO. He is an ex-Smalltalker, after all. He might even think it makes objects less OO (but I wouldn't want to say what other people think - THAT is your job).
MS could probably have built the whole system in 3-4 months. Riiiight. But how could they? They have no Java (or crossplatform) expertise.
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Message #169601
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Again I ask, how does D related to design time API
Peter, For the last time. I know enough technical facts to do my work and don't care about the rest. Especially as it is highly controversial what is facts or not. For example, this forum can not even agree upon the color of an orange!This whole debate started because Cedric said that my statements for the D language "were opinions only". Then I just meekly pointed out that my opinions in the past had turned out pretty accurate. My background makes me better suited to look into the mist of the future. That is my claim and I have proven it.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
I don't care about what you do at work. I only care about how D achieves similar features/functionality as design time API. To do that, all you need to do is talk about how design time API affects language design, just in time optimization and what those trade-offs are. You have 20 years of experience, so I would think that is shouldn't be so hard to do.
peter
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Message #169602
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more nonsense from Steve
Applications suited to OO according to Alexander Jerusalem: "For a windowing system or a flight simulator or a computer game or a graphics package, encapsulation is a desirable means for managing dependencies. These applications own their data, but business applications don't" Shouldn't and don't are two different things. Data without an application is useless and an application without data is useless.
Indeed. And, of course, this has absolutely no relevance to AutoCADs declared status as the 'ancestral beginning of OOP'.
The purpose of an ORM is NOT to separate the application from the data but to separate the persistance mechanism from the domain logic.
Very well put!
So you think that the stupid getters/setters classes of ORM qualify as OO? I highly doubt Steve thinks accessors make an object OO. He is an ex-Smalltalker, after all. He might even think it makes objects less OO (but I wouldn't want to say what other people think - THAT is your job).
Actually, I don't mind them that much. As long as I can treat them as properties and have them managed by an IDE.
Oh, and for Rolf: Search the web for EBay's presentation at JavaOne 2003 - proof of EJB use. Assuming you don't trust TSS to publish the truth in their article about EBay.
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Message #169604
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design-time interactions is 100% uninteresting
Peter,
You are an idiot. Do you think that we, the professional application authors use a visual design environment? If you knew something about the .NET world you would know that Microsoft’s obsession with design-time elements - to drag and drop components onto the screen is one of the things that they are most criticized most for. You never cease to amaze me. This whole thread, whatever the Java should copy the most stupid/insignificant beginner practice from MS is patetique.
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