NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta

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  1. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta (114 messages)

    Despite NetBeans 5.0 issuing release candidates less than two weeks ago, NetBeans 5.0 has gone final. This release includes Matisse (a GUI builder), J2EE 1.4 integration (with support of multiple servers, including Sun's application server, JBoss, and Weblogic), a collaboration plugin, a profiler that's been gaining some notice, and it's also much faster than earlier releases.

    NetBeans provides full support for the J2EE 1.4 platform, with wizards for the creation of Enterprise Java Beans (and supporting patterns, such as accessing databases, queues, and other EJBs), web services, web frameworks such as JSF and Struts, testing frameworks such as JUnit, and other common components of the J2EE 1.4 platform.

    The module system for NetBeans has been growing, along with the continued development of the NetBeans 5.0 rich client platform.

    Roman Strobl also pointed out that the next release will feature the results of efforts behind the NetBeans 5.0 team, the Java Studio Creator team, and the Sun Studio Enterprise team. Since JSC2 and SSE are based on older versions of NetBeans, this can only improve those products.

    Development on NetBeans' Java Enterprise Edition 5.0 capabilities also continues, with daily builds being available; while some features are still incomplete, the next major revision is much faster than NB5, loading in seconds.

    Threaded Messages (114)

  2. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    Congratulations to the Netbeans team. It's truly an awesome product. Still not on par with some IDEA features, though I think J2EE support is better than IDEA's. Other than the availability of plugins, which I'm sure will increase over the next few months, Netbeans beats Eclipse hands down, though we'll still see if it can take away Eclipse's market share.

    Ilya
  3. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    Congratulations to the Netbeans team. It's truly an awesome product. Still not on par with some IDEA features, though I think J2EE support is better than IDEA's. Other than the availability of plugins, which I'm sure will increase over the next few months, Netbeans beats Eclipse hands down, though we'll still see if it can take away Eclipse's market share.Ilya

    Congratulations as well, Netbeans5 really is a huge move forward in the Netbeans space, up until recently I wouldnt have given Netbeans (and also JSC) a second thought, but both tools have been improved so tremendously that if you do serious J2EE development those defintely are worth looking at, especially since the Eclipse guys mostly still play catchup in that arena compared to the Sun offerings...

    All I would need now would be a unified netbeans (with JSC2 under the roof) and good SVN support.. I know all of this is coming, but I guess I am a littly bit picky..

    Anyway congratulations guys...
  4. One nice netbeans feature..[ Go to top ]

    - that I really like about netbeans is that it doesn't have all those childish fanboys trolling around about how much better it is than anything else in this world... I could actually pay for that feature!
  5. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    How refreshing to see an announcement about NetBeans that is NOT on a Sun employee's personal blog!
  6. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    Wow! This version is very fast. It loads in a fraction of the time that Eclipse does using the same jdk - Sun's 1.5_06. Of course, Eclipse is my main IDE and so I may have more going on there, but I was impressed by the brief test drive.

    I'm going to give Netbeans 5 a serious going over the next few days to see how well it supports what I do - J2EE components and services. I just wish it received as much 3rd party support as Eclipse.
  7. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    Credit where credit is due...

    I think Sun has done a great job on NetBeans 5 and SJSAS. They've come a long way in the quality of their tools and servers.

    Now if only:

      * They could sell it to save their lives.
      * They would release their stranglehold on Java.
      * They would stop obfuscating the Java brand.

    Oh well...best of luck to them anyway.

    Cheers,
    Clinton
  8. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    They could sell it to save their lives

    Save our lives? From what? :) Sun is doing reasonably well - it could be always better, but it's much better than most people think. NetBeans, Glassfish, Solaris and other opensource projects are important for Sun in capturing developer mindshare - Sun wants Java developers to be happy and developing on Sun platforms. Sun provides all software tools for free - and we belive that the money will come from hardware, support and services.

    Companies which fight this change in business models have a hard time - look at other IDEs which are on decline (I won't give names)... Software is moving from the traditional license model into the model where you earn money on real value - not for paying for a barrier to get the software (license). Google is also for free and look how great they are doing. It's not an easy change though.

    It's a great time for developers.
  9. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    Congratulations! Everybody who uses NetBeans can be proud of this new release, it's really amazing!
  10. Congrats[ Go to top ]

    Netbeans has really improved in leaps and bounds. Congrats.
  11. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    Very nice product. Lots of good stuff.

    Small complaint. It would be nice to avoid having yet another instance of Tomcat installed if there is one on the machine already. Can't this be checked during installation as is already done for the JDK?

    I have already uninstalled JSC. I might hibernate Eclipse for a while too and see how I get on just using NB.

    Congrats.

    Kit
  12. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I used NetBeans way, way back. Then moved to Kawa, JBuilder, and finally rested on Eclipse. Recently I tried NetBeans out again. Looks nice. Loads pretty good and is responsive. But I have to keep asking myself: why? Why the heck is Sun spending so much money and time working on this? Eclipse is such a neutral platform that I couldn't see Sun's rush to create an better alternative open source IDE. Thanks to Sun's efforts, OSS programmers who could work on a better IDE are split into two distinct camps. Why are you doing this to the Java community Sun? Are you purposely preventing Java programmers from having a IDE that can compete with Visual Studip.NET! I would hate to believe its just because Eclipse uses SWT instead of Swing. If thats the case, its the most childish and thoughtless response I have ever seen a company undertake.
  13. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Stan, seriously...you need to walk through that logic of yours a bit, then come back and apologize for posting something so stupid.
  14. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I don't understand why you say it is stupid. One can wonder why Sun is spending money to develop Netbeans instead of joining the Eclipse project.
    Sure it is a good thing for Java developpers to have the choice between 2 good Open Source IDEs.
    But what is the gain for Sun? I don't see how they can make money with this IDE...
  15. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I don't understand why you say it is stupid. One can wonder why Sun is spending money to develop Netbeans instead of joining the Eclipse project.Sure it is a good thing for Java developpers to have the choice between 2 good Open Source IDEs.But what is the gain for Sun? I don't see how they can make money with this IDE...

    How would they make money contributing to Eclipse?
  16. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    One can wonder why Sun is spending money ... But what is the gain for Sun? ...
    Wondering and asking questions is one thing (like you did). Telling them off is another (like he did).

    It is like the old saying, "It is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."
  17. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I don't understand why you say it is stupid. One can wonder why Sun is spending money to develop Netbeans instead of joining the Eclipse project.Sure it is a good thing for Java developpers to have the choice between 2 good Open Source IDEs.But what is the gain for Sun? I don't see how they can make money with this IDE...

    NBs are older than Eclipse, so you should ask why IBM did not join NBs. For the same reason SUN did not join Eclipse.

    It is sad, how lot of people believe in any crap from IBM's marketing -> good IBM, evil SUN ........ wake up! It is not about OSS, it is about money ...
  18. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Your assumption that Netbeans programmers would all switch to Eclipse is without foundation. Netbeans and Eclipse represent differences in design and philosophy. Programmers who do not like Eclipse - and there are many - would want to write a competing IDE that satisfies their requirements. And they do. All OSS programmers do not think, work or design alike, so Eclipse.org attracts only the ones that fit its style and approach. Others go elsewhere and would continue to do so if Netbeans did not exist.

    I like the fact that I have choices. I like the fact that if Eclipse.org gets lazy or goes off in a direction I don't want to got that I have other options. In fact, I may switch to Netbeans myself.

    Competition is good, something the Soviet Union proved in the negative. How good would Java be today if there wasn't Microsoft and .NET? How good would Visual Studio be if Borland's IDEs had not existed? Have you ever used a pre-Borland IDE from anyone? Give thanks you no longer have to.

    BTW, you aware that there are a lot more Java IDEs than just these 2 don't you? Its not an either or.

    You certainly do not speak for all Java programmers, just yourself.
  19. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Netbeans and Eclipse represent differences in design and philosophy.

    I don't remember an IDE having a philosophy. I'm guessing you meant to say they have different design philosophies. Please explain these differences without talking about SWT or Swing, which are only GUI widget sets. When you suddenly find yourself wanting to badly include the widget sets in the discussion you will see my point above. Are widget sets really that important?

    Programmers who do not like Eclipse - and there are many - would want to write a competing IDE that satisfies their requirements.

    Eclipse is a plugin framework. And if you don't like it you can just change it.

    Your response only details the problem with having two OSS Java IDEs. What we have today is two camps fighting over frivolous issues with possible tool vendors trying to figure out which one of the two to write support for. Ofcourse we could say that the tool vendors should support both but I highly doubt due to cost and time constraints that they would agree. So what does this mean in the future? Well, some plugins for one and some for the other. We would then eventually reach a point where neither IDE is better in all areas over the other but they truly sum to equal parts. Since you brought up Russia, lets just call this what it is: a Cold War.

    How good would Java be today if there wasn't Microsoft and .NET?

    I don't know. How good is it because of .NET? Whats new? Generics. Improved iterator loop. Autoboxing. I don't know. It seems pretty much the same language with a handful of new features that I rarely use. The only feature I really like in .NET the Sun people have failed to duplicate: multiple apps from a single JVM. .NET can run a single realm with multiple .NET applications which allows for it start .NET apps quicker and consume less memory. You will see how powerful this feature is with WinFx. Too bad Sun's designers kept failing to hear the communities cries for this feature back in like version 1.2.

    How good would Visual Studio be if Borland's IDEs had not existed?

    Borland's IDE would have been crushed even if Visual Studio sucked. The thing was, Microsoft was more determined to win and had the money, position, and marketting power to do it. There was also the little thing called MFC. Years after Borland's IDE was beanten like a red-headed-stepchild, VStudio still keeps improving itself. What IDE competition is forcing Microsoft to improve? Its quite simple and has nothing to do with IDE competition: Visual Studio is THE framework for working with or adding to Microsoft products. Sun wants the same with NetBeans. Ever notice that Application Server bundle or the existance of the Sun Studio?

    BTW, you aware that there are a lot more Java IDEs than just these 2 don't you? Its not an either or.

    Those are the two major OSS IDEs. ItelliJ and JBuilder are major commericial alternatives but I'm not talking about them since they are not OSS.

    You certainly do not speak for all Java programmers, just yourself.

    Wow. Thanks for "putting it to me". I mean, if it weren't for your tough talk I would have just led every Java programmer over a ledge like a bunch of lemmings. :)

    Someone once mentioned to me that IDE's are like text editors to people. People often times get very passionate about these conventions. Take for instance the die-hard "vi" people who will strike at anything or anyone who even utters the word or letters "GUI".

    I'm not asking for programmers to stop using their personal IDE's or creating new ones. What I am asking is for Sun to drop NetBeans and throw all that effort and money behind making Eclipse a true competitor to Visual Studio. If they want to go bundle it with an Application Server or the Sun Studio and sell it I could care less at that point since I know that the OSS license on Eclipse prevents them from taking it completely from the OSS community when profits look good.
  20. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Some points:

    Plug-ins do not fix Eclipse. They add functionality in a particular way. If you don't like the Eclipse platform, architecture or how it does plug-ins then adding more plug-ins won't help.

    Apparently your experience with Java is very recent. In the past 10 years its improved considerably, as a language and as a platform. JEE and some of the other frameworks and features have improved even more because of competative pressure from Microsoft. Microsoft has also gotten better as a result of Java. C# better than C++ or VB for general application development. Sometimes competition leads to copying some bad ideas, like JSPs (a response to ASPs), but for the most part things get better.

    Microsoft hired away much of Borland's IDE development staff in the 1990's when Borland lost direction for awhile. Up until then they just stole ideas from them. The result of all this was the very existance of Visual Studio. When Borland introduced the concept of an integrated IDE to the PC world, all Microsoft had was a bunch of stand alone compilers with weak editors. So there would not be a Visual Studio to crush anything if there had not been a Borland to compete with.

    My point about you not speaking for all Java programmers wasn't a dig. Many of us appreciate Sun's efforts with Netbeans and don't want them to stop working on it. I for one do not want my options reduced in the name of conformity or harmony. The tone of your posting was that it was somehow stupid, wasteful and selfish to do Netbeans. It isn't.
  21. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    n the past 10 years its improved considerably, as a language and as a platform.

    Hate to quote you Williams but this is what you said:

    How good would Java be today if there wasn't Microsoft and .NET?

    If you didn't know, .NET has not been around 10 years.

    Microsoft has also gotten better as a result of Java.

    Yes, it cloned the model and improved it. The finished product is C#. Sun has incorporated some features from it to version 1.5 (those I mentioned last post plus a handful of others)

    Microsoft hired away much of Borland's IDE development staff

    Thats nice and all that you keep bringing up two commercial product vendors. As I already stated, I am only discussing OSS IDEs since commercial companies are often driven by different goals.

    I for one do not want my options reduced in the name of conformity or harmony.

    You apparently answered my original comment without actually reading it. My plea was for Sun, not OSS programmers, to change their effort on IDEs. This would probably result in a larger pool of OSS programmers on a single IDE rather than split between two. If some programmers want to continue NetBeans: go for it. Truthfully, they don't matter since I'm only talking about getting Sun blessing on Eclipse and it funneling resources to it for improvement.

    Okay, next commentor:

    I understand you have a hard time making up your mind about Eclipse, Netbeans, or IDEA,

    What the heck? Do people not read comments before responding to them on this site?

    Why don't you propose that Linux, Unix, and Mac OSX

    It amazes me how people today seem to consider OSS projects the same as commercial companies. Your example would have been better with something like "Linux and BSD".

    Also, have you worked with .NET? Do you realize that in many cases it's years behind most capable java IDE's out there?

    I started as a Java programmer back in the late 90's. I was forced in to learning .NET for a client application. Since then I have taken a very neutral view towards both and can see the pros and cons between them without warranting uneducated bias. All I can say is this: Visual Studio blows Eclipse and NetBeans away in all categories. Most importantly though is that if I were a tool vendor I wouldn't be guessing which IDE in .NET world I'm gonna support.
  22. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I think you overlooked the operative word - "and". Microsoft has been selling programming tools for over 20 years. .NET was a response to Java and Java has responded to the challenge of .NET.

    OSS developers are not a homogenous group. They don't all think alike. They don't all swarm to the work available. They do the work that interests them. If they like Eclipse, they'll work on it. There is a group of OSS developers that are commercial. IBM, for example, is the biggest contributor of development talent to Apache and it create Eclipse. So OSS and major vendors are not exclusive.

    In know your plea was to Sun. And I hope and expect they will ignore it.
  23. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    . All I can say is this: Visual Studio blows Eclipse and NetBeans away in all categories.
    LOL. Refactoring? Orgainizing imports? That's just for starts. I'll start keeping notes. Sure, VS.Net does somethings better.
     Most importantly though is that if I were a tool vendor I wouldn't be guessing which IDE in .NET world I'm gonna support.
    Sure. But don't forget to watch your back. They might just put you out of business.
  24. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    What I am asking is for Sun to drop NetBeans and throw all that effort and money behind making Eclipse a true competitor to Visual Studio. If they want to go bundle it with an Application Server or the Sun Studio and sell it I could care less at that point since I know that the OSS license on Eclipse prevents them from taking it completely from the OSS community when profits look good.

    Stan, are you serious? If you read blogs from Netbeans folks, Sun stuck with Netbeans because they do not believe in some ways the path Eclipse is headed towards, Swign vs. SWT being only a small piece of the puzzle. Same way their engineers truly believe that Solaris 10 is better than Linux, though they haven't stopped it's development. When you read some Solaris kernel development blogs, they truly have some very very interesting points. I think Sun makes very quality products, though for some reason they can't get market share.

    Honestly, I think Eclipse is an awesome plugin architecture, which is evident by the number of plugins out there, but it sucks (compared to others) as a true Java IDE.

    When you hear people say, I use Eclipse, many think that they person chose Eclipse due to it's feature set, quality, etc..., but it's not true. Eclipse is shoved down corporations throats by IBM and other vendors that build on top of it. It's sort of like saying that many program in Java because it's the greatest language/development environment. In my case, I think it's great, but in many peoples cases, they are doing it becaus that's where the jobs are. Ruby is great, but you don't hear the masses proclaiming that, since you won't really find a Ruby job out there (there are some).

    Bottom line is, competition is healthy, and your ideas might not necessarily align with other developer's ideas, though you have two products.

    Ilya
  25. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    If you read blogs from Netbeans folks, Sun stuck with Netbeans because they do not believe in some ways the path Eclipse is headed towards, Swign vs. SWT being only a small piece of the puzzle.

    But thats just it. Could someone please explain, outside SWT and Swing, for the reason of a seperate IDE? Please be technical!

    but it sucks (compared to others) as a true Java IDE.

    What is a "true" Java IDE? So many people use Eclispe as their primary Java IDE that I must argue that it appears to truly be a Java IDE.

    Eclipse is shoved down corporations throats by IBM and other vendors that build on top of it.

    I started using Eclipse because I wanted a cheap solution to JBuilder. Running as your own business you have to cut corners, no matter how small. No corporation that I know of made me make this choice. Is this "IBM forcing" issue common? I mean, since IBM no longer runs Eclipse, why are they still forcing it? Or is this something you seen in the past?

    Ruby is great, but you don't hear the masses proclaiming that, since you won't really find a Ruby job out there (there are some).

    Ruby, with Rails in particular, may not be just a "blip" on a radar and then gone forever. LAMP based systems are growing in numbers due to the framework wars going on and the lack of a good means to quickly and efficiently develop SOA and web based solutions.

    Bottom line is, competition is healthy

    This is what I am preaching AGAINST! Look at other OSS projects out there for an example of how well that idea is NOT working out. Gnome and KDE anyone? How about OpenOffice and KOffice? Linux or BSD?

    Get your head out of the hole people. Competition is only good for corporations. It seems to just make OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps where, if combined, would have created a competitor to their commericial rival.
  26. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    But thats just it. Could someone please explain, outside SWT and Swing, for the reason of a seperate IDE? Please be technical!

    Read some Sun's employee blogs, they are searchable from google, then you'll know. I can't recall some at this time, if I will, I'll reply again, but I remember reading them and agreeing with most points.
    What is a "true" Java IDE? So many people use Eclispe as their primary Java IDE that I must argue that it appears to truly be a Java IDE.

    One that provides great Java-specific facilities without compromising any for the sake of being supportive of other tools/languages. Yes, you can build a plugin for Eclipse to make up for any differences I'm sure, but so can you just use IntelliJ and/or Netbeans. I know IntelliJ is not a OSS IDE, but it still deserves the attention here, because being pretty well paid developers we are, I'm sure no one is going to hold back $499 if it gives them a product they truly enjoy using.
    I started using Eclipse because I wanted a cheap solution to JBuilder. Running as your own business you have to cut corners, no matter how small. No corporation that I know of made me make this choice. Is this "IBM forcing" issue common? I mean, since IBM no longer runs Eclipse, why are they still forcing it? Or is this something you seen in the past?

    Well, I didn't mean you specifically, but enterprise wide, I see many patterns of this. It's not about Eclipse, it's about Websphere. We all know IBM is present in probably 100% of fortune 200 corpoorations one way or another. They stick Websphere to the management as a strategic offering, not necessarily technically superb one. With that comes their wonderful IDE based on Eclipse. Oh, but we're using Netbeans, too bad, we should standardize on one IDE, and since we're going the WAS direction, let's standardize on Eclipse. Notice, I'm not bashing Eclipse, it's great, I use it as well. All I'm saying is that their product is underserving of the market share that they currently enjoy, and I don't believe most of it is due to Eclipses superb functionality.
    This is what I am preaching AGAINST! Look at other OSS projects out there for an example of how well that idea is NOT working out. Gnome and KDE anyone?


    What's your gripe with Gnome and KDE? Based on two different philosophies and graphics libraries.
    How about OpenOffice and KOffice? Linux or BSD?Get your head out of the hole people. Competition is only good for corporations. It seems to just make OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps where, if combined, would have created a competitor to their commericial rival.

    I think you have the wrong IDEA about OSS. It's not done for profit, nor for providing some corporation nor individuals functionality they want. If you want something, go pay for it. OSS projects are hobbies. Maybe a bit more than hobbies these days, especially with commercial backings, but most developers join one because they believe in a certain philosophy that accompanies some OSS product, etc... They want to gain skills, and possibly become known in the community while their at it.

    Ilya
  27. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Read some Sun's employee blogs, they are searchable from google,

    I'm a little dubious of Sun developers whose paid job is to write NetBeans. I'd prefer someone who has no tie to either, and thus could be a little less bias answer. Is there no non-Sun people working on NetBeans?

    One that provides great Java-specific facilities without compromising any for the sake of being supportive of other tools/languages.

    True, Eclipse is a plugin framework that IDEs for other languages could be created upon. This makes it very similar to MS Visual Studio which supports a range of programming languages (C#, VB.NET, C++). But as for the Java part, what Java-specific facilities are you seeing diminished by this capability?

    It's not about Eclipse, it's about Websphere.

    I don't really care about IBM or what IBM is doing to sell more Websphere. Eclipse and IBM are two seperate entities. This makes it very different from NetBeans which is run by Sun.

    Oh, but we're using Netbeans, too bad, we should standardize on one IDE, and since we're going the WAS direction, let's standardize on Eclipse.

    NetBean's can't support Websphere? Maybe someone should write a Websphere adapter for NetBeans.

    What's your gripe with Gnome and KDE

    I like both and prefer neither over the other. But they are probably the biggest example of duplicating efforts going nowhere fast.

    I think you have the wrong IDEA about OSS.

    You continue on about comments about OSS developers and OSS philosophies. Again, I don't care what OSS developers do or believe in. They can do what they want to do.
  28. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    NetBean's can't support Websphere? Maybe someone should write a Websphere adapter for NetBeans.

    Java Studio Enterprise (available for free) supports Websphere. There will be a plug-in available for NetBeans to support WebSphere as well, I believe it should appear in next release of NetBeans. We belive that choice is good, even if you choose to deploy on our competitor's app server ;)
  29. True, Eclipse is a plugin framework that IDEs for other languages could be created upon. This makes it very similar to MS Visual Studio which supports a range of programming languages (C#, VB.NET, C++).

    Apples and Oranges.
    Eclipse and IBM are two seperate entities. This makes it very different from NetBeans which is run by Sun.

    The Eclipse organization itself may be distinct, but most of the Eclipse IDE developement is funded by IBM. The reality is that IBM still dictates the direction Eclipse takes.

    This is not a bad thing. Without major companies driving Eclipse and NetBeans, developement would stagnate.
  30. The reality is that IBM still dictates the direction Eclipse takes.

    Do you have proof to back that accusaction up? Eclipse has repeatably said otherwise. If you have said proof, please let us all see. Otherwise, we'll just have to take it as just tin foil hat fantasy.
  31. Apples and Oranges and other falacies[ Go to top ]

    The reality is that IBM still dictates the direction Eclipse takes.Do you have proof to back that accusaction up? Eclipse has repeatably said otherwise. If you have said proof, please let us all see. Otherwise, we'll just have to take it as just tin foil hat fantasy.
    Well, I looked and couldn't find a comprehensive list of who works on the JDT and their employers, but I've heard it said that IBM contributed most of the seed money, the original architecture, and something like 100 employees to work on Eclipse. The consortium may have grown past being an IBM controlled thing, but without IBM driving the cart to begin with thered be no Eclipse.

    I don't know if that means IBM dictates the direction Eclipse takes, but when I think of eclipse, I think IBM.
  32. Apples and Oranges and other falacies[ Go to top ]

    Well, I looked and couldn't find a comprehensive list of who works on the JDT and their employers,

    http://www.eclipse.org/membership/

    Thats not a list of "people", but does list the strategic, add-in, and associate members. IBM is listed as a strategic developing partner along with companies like BEA, Borland, Intel, and Nokia to name just a few.

    If you think IBM when you think Eclipse, your just thinking in the past.
  33. Apples and Oranges and other falacies[ Go to top ]

    The reality is that IBM still dictates the direction Eclipse takes.Do you have proof to back that accusaction up? Eclipse has repeatably said otherwise. If you have said proof, please let us all see. Otherwise, we'll just have to take it as just tin foil hat fantasy.

    Please check how many Eclipse core developers are paid by IBM.

    BTW Tomcat without SUN and IBM paid developers would not exist.

    Also check how much is IBM pushing to Linux

    Forget about your OSS dream, people (SW developers also) must eat ...
  34. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Read some Sun's employee blogs, they are searchable from google,I'm a little dubious of Sun developers whose paid job is to write NetBeans. I'd prefer someone who has no tie to either, and thus could be a little less bias answer. Is there no non-Sun people working on NetBeans?

    Yes, Netbeans is as much OSS project as Eclipse is. That's like saying are there any non-IBM employees working on Eclipse. Many eclipse contributors are paid by IBM, same is true with Netbeans.
    One that provides great Java-specific facilities without compromising any for the sake of being supportive of other tools/languages.True, Eclipse is a plugin framework that IDEs for other languages could be created upon. This makes it very similar to MS Visual Studio which supports a range of programming languages (C#, VB.NET, C++). But as for the Java part, what Java-specific facilities are you seeing diminished by this capability?

    Again, it's not necessarily facilities being deminished, it's the fact that the environment is dependent upon a series of unrelated modules, which are managed and created by various sources. This creates a lot of issues. My gripe was the fact that people keep saying, but Eclipse can also manage such and such projects. But I don't care, I care about Java projects. If I want to develop Python or Ruby projects, I can use Komodo.
    It's not about Eclipse, it's about Websphere.I don't really care about IBM or what IBM is doing to sell more Websphere. Eclipse and IBM are two seperate entities. This makes it very different from NetBeans which is run by Sun.

    This is as true as me saying Eclipse is managed by IBM. Netbeans is an open source project just like Eclipse is. I'm sure some features are influenced by Sun, but same is true for Eclipse. Do you think Eclipse became such a good/popular product because a bunch of developers got together on their spare time and wrote code? No, IBM and then others contributed a lot of money, code, and resources.
    You continue on about comments about OSS developers and OSS philosophies. Again, I don't care what OSS developers do or believe in. They can do what they want to do.

    So then what was the point of your post?

    Ilya
  35. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    This is what I am preaching AGAINST! Look at other OSS projects out there for an example of how well that idea is NOT working out. Gnome and KDE anyone? How about OpenOffice and KOffice? Linux or BSD?Get your head out of the hole people. Competition is only good for corporations. It seems to just make OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps where, if combined, would have created a competitor to their commericial rival.

    Actually, I think you have picked examples which show competition working extremely well. Gnome and KDE have both grown in popularity, OpenOffice has had a major influence on KOffice to such an extent that KOffice will use OpenOffice file formats. Linux and BSD are both fine products.

    You may not have realised it, but Linux and OpenOffice are very effective competitors to their commercial equivalents (as are Bsd, KDE etc).
  36. From:

    http://weblogs.java.net/blog/gsporar/archive/2006/02/suns_developer.html

    (I recommend to read the whole post)

    Q: These Sun developer tools have some great features, but why try to do it all? Why not just join the Eclipse Foundation and have one focused effort to use for building tools? In other words, why couldn't all of Sun's leading-edge tools features just be delivered as Eclipse plugins?

    A: There are several reasons:

    1) We do not agree with all the technology decisions made by IBM when they created Eclipse. In particular, the Standard Widget Toolkit (SWT) breaks the Java promise of "write once, run anywhere" (WORA), which is a key value provided by the Java programming language.

    2) While it would be theoretically possible to port all of our technology from Swing to SWT, the effort is non-trivial. A key problem is the very different event-handling architectures. So instead of investing in a huge effort to port to something that does not support WORA, we prefer to instead invest in adding innovative new features. Note, Eclipse's SWT/AWT bridge technology is not robust enough for us to rely on it. As just one example, there are problems on the Mac: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=67384.

    3) We are not convinced that the Eclipse approach provides the best user experience. While the base Eclipse tool set provides some impressive functionality, it is only a base - everything else is delivered via plugins. There is a growing audience for free tools that just work right out of the box, no assembly required in order to get basic functionality such as an HTML/XML/JSP editor, etc.

    4) There is a large (and growing) community of third-party applications built on the NetBeans Platform - for some examples take a look at http://www.netbeans.org/products/platform/screenshots.html. Most of these have nothing to do with developer tools, but that does not make them any less dependent on our support of the NetBeans Platform. We cannot easily abandon this segment of the developer community.

    5) The momentum behind NetBeans accelerated in 2005. If it were declining in popularity our answer might be different, but the opposite is the case. The latest numbers from Evans Data Corporation show that the NetBeans IDE (and the IDEs built on it) holds 31% of the Java developer market. In addition, it is important to note that of all the downloads of the NetBeans IDE that have happened since it was open-sourced in June, 2000, over 33% of those downloads happened during 2005 alone. This would indicate that now is not the right time to abandon NetBeans in favor of Eclipse.

    6) Besides, competition is a good thing. It drives innovation and provides a choice to the community of developers. Based on user feedback and the dramatic increase in usage, we are confident that the NetBeans community will fuel further innovation that is going to appeal to a large number of developers.

    No need to worry, Sun is here to stay behind NetBeans and will continue to improve NetBeans. We have very interesting features in the pipeline for next releases. We want to push the ease of Java development - like we did with Matisse for GUIs - but for all areas of development. Even in areas where NetBeans currently lacks.
  37. Okay, someone had to post a reply from a Sun developer.

    (1) In particular, the Standard Widget Toolkit (SWT) breaks the Java promise of "write once, run anywhere"

    NetBeans runs on Windows, Linux, Solaris SPARC, Mac OS/X, and Solaris x86.

    SWT runs on the following ( I dont feel like listing them all out): http://download.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops/R-3.1.1-200509290840/index.php#swt

    As you can see, SWT runs everywhere NetBeans does and many more.

    (2) While it would be theoretically possible to port all of our technology from Swing to SWT, the effort is non-trivial.

    They point out the that the SWT/AWT bridge has bugs on the Mac. Apparently Sun developers are unable (or unwilling) to help fix this. Apple and Eclipse are working actively on the problem (see the link) and I'm sure they will get it resolved. This has more to do with the use of Carbon over Coacoa. SWT went with Carbon for its base whereas Swing used the older Coacoa. Getting the two to work right is complicated.

    (3) There is a growing audience for free tools that just work right out of the box, no assembly required in order to get basic functionality such as an HTML/XML/JSP editor, etc.

    Hmmm, Im guessing they are trying advocate the bundling of a HTML, XML, and JSP instead of using plugins. They could have done this with Eclipse so thats a silly response. See MyEclipse as an example. But bundling is a bad idea since it prevents competition (which defies their 6th answer) from other vendors.

    And the use of the word "assembly" is a bit funny since Eclipse supports a built in feature to automatically download and install plugins. No assembly required.

    The 4th and 5th answer are not technical but rather marketting decisions. You can judge for yourself if they really are good decisions. But note that Sun could have done BOTH using the Eclipse platform.

    The 6th is the "competition is good" matra. Oddly, Eclipse seems to have stopped major work on the IDE and instead moved off in to sub-projects whereas NetBeans keeps adding more and more bundled features. This is probably a major difference between the two IDEs. Eclipse goes with the pluggable platform whereas NetBeans is trying to become the Swiss Army Knife of Java tools. This is a major stumbling block for NetBeans since it is purposely limiting its growth.
  38. I think we'll agree to disagree. NetBeans runs on more platforms than you listed, but it doesn't matter. You made up your mind already so there's no point in discussing.
  39. Cocoa newer than carbon[ Go to top ]

    I don't know about the rest of your points, but Cocoa is newer than Carbon.
  40. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Get your head out of the hole people. Competition is only good for corporations. It seems to just make OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps where, if combined, would have created a competitor to their commericial rival.

    Well said Stan!

    Arcadius.
  41. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Get your head out of the hole people. Competition is only good for corporations. It seems to just make OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps where, if combined, would have created a competitor to their commericial rival.
    Well said Stan!Arcadius.

    NOPE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Monopoly always SUCKS!!!

    First lesson on any economic faculty ...
  42. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Get your head out of the hole people. Competition is only good for corporations. It seems to just make OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps where, if combined, would have created a competitor to their commericial rival.
    Well said Stan!Arcadius.
    NOPE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!Monopoly always SUCKS!!! First lesson on any economic faculty ...

    for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly :
    Monopoly is defined as a persistent market situation where there is only one provider of a kind of product or service.
    As you may know, there are many commercial Java IDEs(no need to cite them).
    So, what monopoly are you talking about?

    Arcadius.
  43. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    So, what monopoly are you talking about? Arcadius.

    Arcadius, just take a look at Eclipse's growth - if NetBeans would give up, there would be soon only Eclipse. Note that all commercial IDEs are losing marketshare. There's not a Java IDE monopoly now, but it's heading that way. Hopefully NetBeans won't let that happen.

    Btw, are you still in Prague? I used to have English CS classes with you :)
  44. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    So, what monopoly are you talking about? Arcadius.
    Arcadius, just take a look at Eclipse's growth - if NetBeans would give up, there would be soon only Eclipse. Note that all commercial IDEs are losing marketshare. There's not a Java IDE monopoly now, but it's heading that way. Hopefully NetBeans won't let that happen.

    I know, Eclipse is everywhere.
    And given the weight of IBM, I wonder how long SUN could stand in this game.
    I wish they could stop this SWT/Swing war and find a win-win solution(whatever that may be).
    Btw, are you still in Prague? I used to have English CS classes with you :)
    Yes, I'm still here ;)

    Arcadius.
  45. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I wonder how long SUN could stand in this game.

    Long... the proof we have are the growing numbers of NetBeans supporters... our update center hits went 225% up in last year... there's about 350.000 users on the nbannounce mailing list (double than a year ago). Also Sun has a huge developer community around java.sun.com and developers.sun.com - it's said to be the second biggest developer community on the world after Redmond. So yes, we're here to stay. Btw, I know you were very good with your studies, check the jobs page... Sun is a great employer (I can tell you why if you're interested).

    http://cz.sun.com/jobs/

    Stop the SWT/Swing war? We didn't start it :(
  46. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Stop the SWT/Swing war? We didn't start it :(

    My impression is that it is nearly over anyway. Because of significant improvements in Swing in recent releases of J2SE and also I guess because of the sheer convienence of Swing being part of J2SE, Swing now has a significant presence in the client-side development area. No matter what the other relative merits of Eclipse and Swing-based IDEs, there seem to be frequent complaints about SWT performance on certain platforms. SWT really doesn't seem to have taken off that much.
  47. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Stop the SWT/Swing war? We didn't start it :(
    My impression is that it is nearly over anyway. Because of significant improvements in Swing in recent releases of J2SE and also I guess because of the sheer convienence of Swing being part of J2SE, Swing now has a significant presence in the client-side development area. No matter what the other relative merits of Eclipse and Swing-based IDEs, there seem to be frequent complaints about SWT performance on certain platforms. SWT really doesn't seem to have taken off that much.

    Actually the problem with SWT really is that it runs well and snappy on Windows, runs more or less okish on GTK (and maybe Photon I have not checked that) and crawls everywhere else.
    Swing on OSX for instance is almost twice as fast as SWT.
    Given the advancements Swing has made especially in the last three years it really has become a viable option on the client side especially on non Windows platforms.
  48. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Actually the problem with SWT really is that it runs well and snappy on Windows, runs more or less okish on GTK (and maybe Photon I have not checked that) and crawls everywhere else.Swing on OSX for instance is almost twice as fast as SWT.Given the advancements Swing has made especially in the last three years it really has become a viable option on the client side especially on non Windows platforms.Sun really needs to get some professional UI ppl to work on their look and feels. For example swing's Gtk l&f is painfully slow and buggy, and doesn't look too hot. And in certain Gtk themes, the menus totally disappear! SWT on Gtk on the hand not only looks better, it's less buggy, and runs way quicker. And on windows I would never use swing without JGoodies' l&f. I don't develop for OSX so I can't comment on that.
  49. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Let me try again...
    Actually the problem with SWT really is that it runs well and snappy on Windows, runs more or less okish on GTK (and maybe Photon I have not checked that) and crawls everywhere else.Swing on OSX for instance is almost twice as fast as SWT.Given the advancements Swing has made especially in the last three years it really has become a viable option on the client side especially on non Windows platforms.
    Sun really needs to get some professional UI ppl to work on their look and feels. For example swing's Gtk l&f is painfully slow and buggy, and doesn't look too hot. And in certain Gtk themes, the menus totally disappear! SWT on Gtk on the hand not only looks better, it's less buggy, and runs way quicker. And on windows I would never use swing without JGoodies' l&f. I don't develop for OSX so I can't comment on that.
  50. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Let me try again...
    Actually the problem with SWT really is that it runs well and snappy on Windows, runs more or less okish on GTK (and maybe Photon I have not checked that) and crawls everywhere else.Swing on OSX for instance is almost twice as fast as SWT.Given the advancements Swing has made especially in the last three years it really has become a viable option on the client side especially on non Windows platforms.
    Sun really needs to get some professional UI ppl to work on their look and feels. For example swing's Gtk l&f is painfully slow and buggy, and doesn't look too hot. And in certain Gtk themes, the menus totally disappear! SWT on Gtk on the hand not only looks better, it's less buggy, and runs way quicker. And on windows I would never use swing without JGoodies' l&f. I don't develop for OSX so I can't comment on that.

    The GTK stuff has been significantly improved for JDK 6.0 (check out the betas and nightly builds)
    To sum it up there is no ideal toolkit. You can use SWT if you want to run Windows only and Windows/GTK2, on all other platforms Swing can be preferred, Swing also has become a viable option on most platforms except GTK (that is pre 6.0) and is a good choice if you do not go the GTK L&F route but choose a different look and feel on Linux, for Linux as well.

    But as I said there is no ideal solution, but for most solutions Swing can be used without too many problems.
  51. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Get your head out of the hole people. Competition is only good for corporations. It seems to just make OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps where, if combined, would have created a competitor to their commericial rival.
    Well said Stan!Arcadius.
    NOPE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!Monopoly always SUCKS!!! First lesson on any economic faculty ...
    for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly :Monopoly is defined as a persistent market situation where there is only one provider of a kind of product or service.As you may know, there are many commercial Java IDEs(no need to cite them). So, what monopoly are you talking about?Arcadius.


    >>> OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps

    The monopoly in the OSS efforts ...
  52. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    This is what I am preaching AGAINST! Look at other OSS projects out there for an example of how well that idea is NOT working out. Gnome and KDE anyone? How about OpenOffice and KOffice? Linux or BSD?Get your head out of the hole people. Competition is only good for corporations. It seems to just make OSS efforts split in to two bickering camps where, if combined, would have created a competitor to their commericial rival.

    You must be new to Linux and FOSS in general. The KDE/GNOME rivalry is the best thing that ever happened to Linux. KDE(1-3) was better than GNOME. GNOME2 is now better than KDE3. And I'm willing to bet that KDE4 will be better than GNOME2. If you lurk on the dev mailing lists you will see them constantly dissecting the other's features so that they can outdo them. It's precisely because of this rivalry we today have a viable FOSS alternative to commercial desktops. Otherwise all we would've had till now was one big slow and ugly pile of crap.
  53. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    What I am asking is for Sun to drop NetBeans and throw all that effort and money behind making Eclipse a true competitor to Visual Studio.
    I use both Eclipse and VS.Net. Eclipse is doing quite well without Netbeans developers. I would rather they help VS.Net out (only cause I have to use it).
  54. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    What I am asking is for Sun to drop NetBeans and throw all that effort and money behind making Eclipse a true competitor to Visual Studio.
    I use both Eclipse and VS.Net. Eclipse is doing quite well without Netbeans developers.

    And as we can see, NetBeans is doing quite well without Eclipse developers.
  55. Independence[ Go to top ]

    I would give it a try when Maven 2.0 is supported.

    By the way, the freedom Ant give you is one the best thing that has ever happened to Java. Every developpers in a team can use whatever IDE fit them. I hope the same happens for Maven based project :)
  56. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    What I am asking is for Sun to drop NetBeans and throw all that effort and money behind making Eclipse a true competitor to Visual Studio.
    I use both Eclipse and VS.Net. Eclipse is doing quite well without Netbeans developers.
    And as we can see, NetBeans is doing quite well without Eclipse developers.
    Yes, very true.

    The point being both of these IDEs are very good. It depends on how one develops and what they develop. The same is true for VS.Net. If only need the straight and narrow and can stay in the box, it is pretty good.
  57. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I used NetBeans way, way back. Then moved to Kawa, JBuilder, and finally rested on Eclipse. Recently I tried NetBeans out again. Looks nice. Loads pretty good and is responsive. But I have to keep asking myself: why? Why the heck is Sun spending so much money and time working on this? Eclipse is such a neutral platform that I couldn't see Sun's rush to create an better alternative open source IDE. Thanks to Sun's efforts, OSS programmers who could work on a better IDE are split into two distinct camps. Why are you doing this to the Java community Sun? Are you purposely preventing Java programmers from having a IDE that can compete with Visual Studip.NET! I would hate to believe its just because Eclipse uses SWT instead of Swing. If thats the case, its the most childish and thoughtless response I have ever seen a company undertake.

    What in the world are you talking about? I understand you have a hard time making up your mind about Eclipse, Netbeans, or IDEA, but the answer is not to stop the development of the two out of those three. Why don't you propose that Linux, Unix, and Mac OSX just drop dead that way you'll just have to know how to work with Windows.

    Nothing is preventing Eclipse from competing with .NET, nor any other project. Also, have you worked with .NET? Do you realize that in many cases it's years behind most capable java IDE's out there? The only reason it has a market share is because Microsoft keeps shoving it down people's throats, as IBM did with WAS to gain much of the market share they enjoy now from BEA.

    Ilya
  58. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Also, have you worked with .NET? Do you realize that in many cases it's years behind most capable java IDE's out there?

    You do realize that .NET is not an IDE don't you?
    The only reason it has a market share is because Microsoft keeps shoving it down people's throats, as IBM did with WAS to gain much of the market share they enjoy now from BEA.

    What does Sun's complete failure to produce anything even half-ass on the client have to do with .NET?
  59. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Also, have you worked with .NET? Do you realize that in many cases it's years behind most capable java IDE's out there?
    You do realize that .NET is not an IDE don't you?
    The only reason it has a market share is because Microsoft keeps shoving it down people's throats, as IBM did with WAS to gain much of the market share they enjoy now from BEA.
    What does Sun's complete failure to produce anything even half-ass on the client have to do with .NET?

    My mistake, I used .NET, since it was used earlier in the context of actual Visual Studio .NET. The original author of my reply was comparing it to .NET, so I figured VS .NET, unless he was clueless.

    You're second question I'm a bit confused about, again, I'm refering to VS .NET. .NET itself is actualy a pretty nice platform. But your bashing of Sun baffles me. NetBeans is half-ass as compared to what? What are your gripes with current Sun offerings?

    Ilya
  60. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    You're second question I'm a bit confused about, again, I'm refering to VS .NET. .NET itself is actualy a pretty nice platform. But your bashing of Sun baffles me. NetBeans is half-ass as compared to what? What are your gripes with current Sun offerings?

    Not Netbeans, but Swing, which Netbeans is unfortunately built on top of it.
  61. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    You're second question I'm a bit confused about, again, I'm refering to VS .NET. .NET itself is actualy a pretty nice platform. But your bashing of Sun baffles me. NetBeans is half-ass as compared to what? What are your gripes with current Sun offerings?
    Not Netbeans, but Swing, which Netbeans is unfortunately built on top of it.

    Swing? There are some very great design flaws of SWT, not that Swing is perfect. Swing (Sun) has learned from the past AWT, evidentally IBM has not. Gosling (not that he's unbiased), has very great points on that. I'm not big on rich client libs though, so I can't comment, but he had very compeling arguments for that.

    Here is the link...
    http://www.builderau.com.au/program/work/0,39024650,39176462,00.htm

    Ilya
  62. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Swing? There are some very great design flaws of SWT, not that Swing is perfect. Swing (Sun) has learned from the past AWT, evidentally IBM has not. Gosling (not that he's unbiased), has very great points on that. I'm not big on rich client libs though, so I can't comment, but he had very compeling arguments for that.

    It's 2006, and Sun still hasn't gotten the kinks out of Swing fonts. Yeah, they might have learned something over the years, but it's a little late. The user doesn't care about the APIs.
  63. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Swing? There are some very great design flaws of SWT, not that Swing is perfect. Swing (Sun) has learned from the past AWT, evidentally IBM has not. Gosling (not that he's unbiased), has very great points on that. I'm not big on rich client libs though, so I can't comment, but he had very compeling arguments for that.
    It's 2006, and Sun still hasn't gotten the kinks out of Swing fonts. Yeah, they might have learned something over the years, but it's a little late. The user doesn't care about the APIs.

    What are the font kinks? I use many swing based products, Netbeans and IntelliJ being just some, and no issues with any fonts? I remember the time swing had some issues, but beats having to natively hook to underlying OS API's for each system, etc... See how nice Eclipse runs on non-Windows platform. My IntelliJ, runs the same on my Windows, OSX, and Linux.

    Ilya
  64. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    What are the font kinks? I use many swing based products, Netbeans and IntelliJ being just some, and no issues with any fonts? I remember the time swing had some issues, but beats having to natively hook to underlying OS API's for each system, etc... See how nice Eclipse runs on non-Windows platform. My IntelliJ, runs the same on my Windows, OSX, and Linux.

    I guess you've never run Swing on an LCD or even taken a look at cleartype on Windows? Hell, Swing fonts aren't even as good as freetype with a bit of messing around with hinting parameters.
  65. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I guess you've never run Swing on an LCD or even taken a look at cleartype on Windows? Hell, Swing fonts aren't even as good as freetype with a bit of messing around with hinting parameters.
    Ok, I just did. I have dual monitors - one LCD one CRT. I had SQuirreL open on the CRT and then drug it over to the LCD. Looks good to me. Of course, I am somewhat blind in one eye... :)
  66. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I guess you've never run Swing on an LCD or even taken a look at cleartype on Windows? Hell, Swing fonts aren't even as good as freetype with a bit of messing around with hinting parameters.

    I guess you've never worked on vt100's, adm5's, etc, vi, etc.

    I'm not saying Swing fonts shouldn't be pretty (and LCD aliasing is in Java 6, which is quite usable with NB), but font aliasing is utterly irrelevant to software engineer productivity! The power and ease of use of tooling has zilch to do with this silliness.

    [I use Swing on an LCD with Java 5 quite happily.]
  67. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I guess you've never run Swing on an LCD or even taken a look at cleartype on Windows? Hell, Swing fonts aren't even as good as freetype with a bit of messing around with hinting parameters.

    all you have to do to get XP-style 'cleartype' is go to Tools -> Options -> Advanced Options -> Editor Settings -> and check the 'Text Antialiasing' checkbox.

    I use a 1680x1050 LCD and it looks every bit as good as XP cleartype.

    PS - thanks to Tim Boudreau for the output window proportional fonts hack :-)
  68. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    (just a note : I love that this thread is named "Great, another waste of time" !)
  69. Sun snubbing SWT not childish[ Go to top ]

    Read about the many Mac users locked out of using great plugins (like MyEclipse) because SWT cannot embed Swing/AWT components on that platform. It's supposed to be write one run anywhere, not run most-anywhere...
  70. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    I used NetBeans way, way back. Then moved to Kawa, JBuilder, and finally rested on Eclipse. Recently I tried NetBeans out again. Looks nice. Loads pretty good and is responsive. But I have to keep asking myself: why? Why the heck is Sun spending so much money and time working on this? Eclipse is such a neutral platform that I couldn't see Sun's rush to create an better alternative open source IDE. Thanks to Sun's efforts, OSS programmers who could work on a better IDE are split into two distinct camps. Why are you doing this to the Java community Sun? Are you purposely preventing Java programmers from having a IDE that can compete with Visual Studip.NET! I would hate to believe its just because Eclipse uses SWT instead of Swing. If thats the case, its the most childish and thoughtless response I have ever seen a company undertake.

    Actually that's exactly what I thought of both SWT and Eclipse.

    SWT may have helped give Sun a boot in the rear, but by the time SWT got solid Swing was quite good in the latest JVM versions available at the same time. Now I don't see any point to SWT besides to produce two camps of incompatible UI work in the Java community -- just what we needed.

    NetBeans 3.6 was pretty decent in a lot of respects -- it kicked many of the previous generation of IDE's butts (e.g. Visual Cafe's). Sure it needed work in some areas, but IBM, et al, could have helped with those instead of trying to incarnate their own beast.

    Saying that Sun shouldn't try duplicate SWT or Eclipse's efforts is simply and purely revisionist history.
  71. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Why are you doing this to the Java community Sun?

    Is there anybody else thinking that what we do is harming Java community? Did Matisse harm Java community? I may be biased because I work for Sun (everybody working at Sun is automatically biased, isn't he? :) - but I believe that what we do with NetBeans is good for the Java community. I wouldn't spend so much energy on NetBeans if I wouldn't believe it.
  72. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Why are you doing this to the Java community Sun?
    Is there anybody else thinking that what we do is harming Java community? ...

    +1

    The Java community is fortunate to have a shepherd-benefactor in Sun. Its employees seem pretty nice too.
  73. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Did Matisse harm Java community?

    Matisse is nice. But the fact of the matter is that it could have been just as easily written as a plugin. As a built in feature to NetBeans, it prevents third party competitors. That, in turn, automatically prevents competition in NetBeans from other vendors and OSS developers. Eclipse has a similiar project called the Visual Editor. But since it will remain a plugin, it makes it possible for other offerings. Competition is only good if you support it. Sun should know all to well with its Microsoft battles about the stagnation to competition that bundling causes.
  74. Hay, you may have a point. But if things work out as you imagined, communist have already win the world. Human are not machine. And don't treat them like that
  75. Matisse is a plug-in[ Go to top ]

    Matisse is nice. But the fact of the matter is that it could have been just as easily written as a plugin.

    It is a plugin. Just not an Eclipse one - NetBeans pioneered this kind of plugin architecture long before eclipse (here's an internet archive link to netbeans.org in 2000 for amusement - substitute the word "plugin" for "module").

    There is nothing stopping anyone from writing an alternate GUI editor for NetBeans, though I can't personally imagine why one would want to. But isn't it odd that you're arguing on the one hand, that competition between Java IDEs is bad and harmful, but on the other hand, somehow NetBeans existence (because you were assuming it did not have a plugin architecture similar to Eclipse) is an affront to competition on the other? This doesn't make sense to me.
  76. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    But I have to keep asking myself: why? Why the heck is Sun spending so much money and time working on this? Eclipse is such a neutral platform that I couldn't see Sun's rush to create an better alternative open source IDE. Thanks to Sun's efforts, OSS programmers who could work on a better IDE are split into two distinct camps. Why are you doing this to the Java community Sun? Are you purposely preventing Java programmers from having a IDE that can compete with Visual Studip.NET! I would hate to believe its just because Eclipse uses SWT instead of Swing. If thats the case, its the most childish and thoughtless response I have ever seen a company undertake.

    Stan,

    But I have to keep asking myself: why? Why the heck is IBM spending so much money and time working on this? NB is such a neutral platform that I couldn't see IBM's rush to create an better alternative open source IDE. Thanks to IBM's efforts, OSS programmers who could work on a better IDE are split into two distinct camps. Why are you doing this to the Java community IBM? Are you purposely preventing Java programmers from having a IDE that can compete with Visual Studip.NET! I would hate to believe its just because NB uses Swing instead of SWT. If thats the case, its the most childish and thoughtless response I have ever seen a company undertake.


    Stan, please please please try to explain me, why it is SUN's fault and not IBM fault?????????????

    And anyway MS .NET sucks just because they do not have so many options and internal competition as the JAVA/J2EE has ...
  77. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Why the heck is IBM spending so much money and time working on this?

    Damian,

    I noticed your pretty intent on proving that IBM is just as guilty as Sun for controlling the IDE's. Okay Damian, how many non-Sun comitters are there on NetBeans? Go scurry along and find out. And yes, I can give you examples on the Eclipse side.

    And while your trying to get that answer, read up about NIH:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here

    I'll quote it:

    Also common, however, are deliberate cases where the organization's staff rejects a known solution because they don't take the time to understand it fully before rejecting it; because they would have to embrace new concepts in infrastructure or terminology; or because they believe they can produce a superior product. As a result, much effort and money is wasted on a solution that in many cases was already developed elsewhere.
  78. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Why the heck is IBM spending so much money and time working on this?Damian,I noticed your pretty intent on proving that IBM is just as guilty as Sun for controlling the IDE's. Okay Damian, how many non-Sun comitters are there on NetBeans? Go scurry along and find out. And yes, I can give you examples on the Eclipse side.And while your trying to get that answer, read up about NIH:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_HereI'll quote it:Also common, however, are deliberate cases where the organization's staff rejects a known solution because they don't take the time to understand it fully before rejecting it; because they would have to embrace new concepts in infrastructure or terminology; or because they believe they can produce a superior product. As a result, much effort and money is wasted on a solution that in many cases was already developed elsewhere.


    Only one, who has a problem with the NIH, is the IBM, as NBs started as Xelfi sometime in 1997.

    IBM could join NBs/Xelfi from 1997 million times, but they did not do it for same reasons as SUN did not join Eclipse later.

    You can believe that IBM is true OSS friend and SUN is an evil, but both companies behave in exectly same way. Making money by keeping a control ...

    I am sorry, but I do not buy your romantic stories about OSS and their true friends like IBM

    I just check first 200 bug reports from Eclipse.org and 90 submitters are fully paid IBM employees ...
  79. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Why the heck is IBM spending so much money and time working on this?Damian,I noticed your pretty intent on proving that IBM is just as guilty as Sun for controlling the IDE's. Okay Damian, how many non-Sun comitters are there on NetBeans? Go scurry along and find out. And yes, I can give you examples on the Eclipse side.And while your trying to get that answer, read up about NIH:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_HereI'll quote it:Also common, however, are deliberate cases where the organization's staff rejects a known solution because they don't take the time to understand it fully before rejecting it; because they would have to embrace new concepts in infrastructure or terminology; or because they believe they can produce a superior product. As a result, much effort and money is wasted on a solution that in many cases was already developed elsewhere.
    Only one, who has a problem with the NIH, is the IBM, as NBs started as Xelfi sometime in 1997.IBM could join NBs/Xelfi from 1997 million times, but they did not do it for same reasons as SUN did not join Eclipse later.You can believe that IBM is true OSS friend and SUN is an evil, but both companies behave in exectly same way. Making money by keeping a control ...I am sorry, but I do not buy your romantic stories about OSS and their true friends like IBMI just check first 200 bug reports from Eclipse.org and 90 submitters are fully paid IBM employees ...


    Eclipse.org; first 200 closed bug reports containing word "null" from the module "platform"

    136 assignees from "ibm.com"
  80. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    Okay Damian, how many non-Sun comitters are there on NetBeans? Go scurry along and find out.

    I'm not sure what the point is here. Why does it matter who contributes, as long as it is open source and successful? It is on both counts.
    lso common, however, are deliberate cases where the organization's staff rejects a known solution because they don't take the time to understand it fully before rejecting it; because they would have to embrace new concepts in infrastructure or terminology; or because they believe they can produce a superior product. As a result, much effort and money is wasted on a solution that in many cases was already developed elsewhere.

    To claim that this is the situation with either IBM or Sun is just plain silly. Both IDEs have a long and separate ancestry. Eclipse was the successor to VisualAge, and NetBeans was bought by Sun in 1999. Both projects were only open-sourced (and so available to other tearms) only after considerable development effort had been put in them.
  81. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    To claim that this is the situation with either IBM or Sun is just plain silly. Both IDEs have a long and separate ancestry. Eclipse was the successor to VisualAge, and NetBeans was bought by Sun in 1999. Both projects were only open-sourced (and so available to other tearms) only after considerable development effort had been put in them.

    I strongly agree that it is quite silly.

    I am just tired by the IBM's marketing created FUD about good, friendly, OSS IBM and evil capitalists from SUN.

    It is only about business, money and power. OSS is just a side affect ...

    -------------------------

    My opinions can be related to a fact, that I am paid by SUN and I was in NBs team for 3 years, but meaybe not ... :)
  82. Great, another waste of time[ Go to top ]

    And while your trying to get that answer, read up about NIH:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_HereI'll quote it:Also common, however, are deliberate cases where the organization's staff rejects a known solution because they don't take the time to understand it fully before rejecting it; because they would have to embrace new concepts in infrastructure or terminology; or because they believe they can produce a superior product. As a result, much effort and money is wasted on a solution that in many cases was already developed elsewhere.

    I take it that this the poster believes this applies to the Sun and NetBeans folk. It seems every bit as applicable to the Eclipse folk who started their effort after NetBeans and invented the schismatic mess that is SWT rather than help fix Swing (or move to a more recent JDK where Swing is already quite good on the whole).
  83. http://jroller.com/page/gevatron?entry=don_t_switch_from_eclipse
  84. I'd be happy to give it a whirl, but there are 2 problems.

    1) Jdeveloper requires jdk1.4_04 and I use jdk1.5_06.
    2) Larry Ellison cannot be trusted to keep a commitment. Remember Oracle Card? And what was their OO tool which they abandoned just before licensing Borland JBuilder so they could use it as the base for Jdeveloper 1.0? How about the many other Oracle tools that have been promised or launched and then abandoned? How about all the changes to their licensing? Nothing is ever free from Oracle for long. The only thing I trust about Oracle is their database.
  85. 1) JDeveloper is using JDK 5. In fact it requires JDK 5.
    2) To me the fact that Oracle is using JDeveloper to build its current and future E-Business Suite (including the Fusion version which will bring together PeopleSoft, JDEdwards and Siebel) is a proof do the comitment to JDeveloper.
    And yes the price does change at Oracle - JDeveloper used to be $995 and now it is Free :-)
  86. About jdk5 and jdeveloper, that would be great. Can you explain why when I downloaded it a few minutes ago they said it required jdk1.4_04? I would assume that if you are correct then that is only required for Jdeveloper itself. True?

    About the other stuff - Sorry, but I've worked with Oracle products since early 1987 and their history has not been good in any product area except the database itself. My fear is that Ellison's ego clouds his judgement and causes the company to lose focus and try to do too many things. Its been a tendency I've observed over the years particularly with development tools. So the "proof" doesn't carry much weight with me yet.
  87. Which JDeveloper version did you download?
    Download JDeveloper 10.1.3 and you should be ok. It uses JDK 5.0 to run, but you can switch the JDK version you use for your actual project.
  88. I'd be happy to give it a whirl, but there are 2 problems.1) Jdeveloper requires jdk1.4_04 and I use jdk1.5_06.

    I use JDeveloper 10.1.3 on a Mac (PowerBook G4) with JDK 1.5.0_05-83! Since JDeveloper is absolutely free, the only thing you need to buy is a Mac :-)
  89. I've got to admit I'm impressed[ Go to top ]

    I find it intuitive, fast to develop with and I like the integration of j2ee products and the drag and drop capabilities.

    Interesting to note that there is no 2-way modelling as in Rational XDE (IBM's commerical IDE) or JDeveloper (Oracle) - but I think there may be a plug-in for this (magicdraw??).

    Well done NetBeans team.

    I think the real test for me will be on a large team project with lots of code and libraries - will NetBeans scale ?
  90. I've got to admit I'm impressed[ Go to top ]

    I find it intuitive, fast to develop with and I like the integration of j2ee products and the drag and drop capabilities.Interesting to note that there is no 2-way modelling as in Rational XDE (IBM's commerical IDE) or JDeveloper (Oracle) - but I think there may be a plug-in for this (magicdraw??).Well done NetBeans team.I think the real test for me will be on a large team project with lots of code and libraries - will NetBeans scale ?

    There is in Sun's enterprise studio, which is now free:-) It's build on top of Netbeans(though 4.1 currently, and I'm sure 5.0 within weeks here). It's has great UML modeling capabilities, collaboration facilities, etc...

    Ilya
  91. I've got to admit I'm impressed[ Go to top ]

    I think the real test for me will be on a large team project with lots of code and libraries - will NetBeans scale ?

    It should scale well. Sources of NetBeans have... let me check... over 500 MB when checked out from netbeans.org. I actually tried to open all these projects in NetBeans - it takes quite a while but NetBeans is still usable. Anyway it's always a good idea divide your sources into subprojects and open only those projects you need.
  92. Great tool![ Go to top ]

    Congratulations!!
    Great tool!
    I have changed back to netbeans!

    I think Sun have done a great job on NetBeans 5 & Netbeans Mobility Pack5 !!

    I think the Matisse Gui builder and the Visual Mobile Designer is SUPER!

    What would I like to have?
    -Netbeans Mobility Pack supporting J2ME/Personal Profile, it would be great!

    -ove
  93. JSR-198[ Go to top ]

    Congratulations to the Netbeans team - they've produced the best open source Java IDE out there IMHO.

    I use IBM's tooling (WSAD, RAD, WID, ...etc) which are Eclipse-based for work, but use Netbeans in my free time. NetBeans is almost as good as the full-blown IDE's built on top of Eclipse, and *way* better than bare-bones Eclipse without the enterprise tooling on top.

    The best things about Netbeans for me are that I can use Java SE 6 and Java EE 5 far earlier than with other environments; the ant integration is great; and Sun have a roadmap for open sourcing *all* of their tools, including Creator and Studio Enterprise.

    As for Eclipse versus Netbeans plugins, hopefully JSR-198 will get some traction,

    http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=198

    then we can have all of our favourite plugins running *either* on Eclipse *or* on Netbeans. But as far as I know, Eclipse haven't joined the JSR-198 efforts. Perhaps they don't want to compete with Netbeans on a level playing field?
  94. Something so basic yet how could they get it so wrong? I wanted to try NetBeans and duly installed it and tried to create a new project with our 100000+ lines of code split into several modules.

    I selected to create a new project from existing code. Pointed it to one of the modules and I get the error that it can't create a project in a directory that already has a build.xml! All my directories (except the src directories) have build.xml files!

    Why on earth does NetBeans not allow you to choose a build file name for it to use (like build-nb.xml or something) so it leaves you build.xml files alone?

    I then tried making my project directory one level up (which has nothing to do with my project but at least it doesn't have a build.xml). I selected my source folders and hit the "finish" button. Nothing happened (except the finish button greyed itself out). The dialog is still active but no way to end it (apart from the X). So closed it and no source files are included. Not impressive at all.

    Obviously I'm not going to update 50+ build.xml files just to accomodate an IDE, so farewell NetBeans until I try again with the next release.
  95. Pointed it to one of the modules and I get the error that it can't create a project in a directory that already has a build.xml!

    Apparently you missed the "project with existing Ant script" options...
  96. Nope, tried that. At the bottom of the panel it had the error message "You must specify the location of the project's files" and I couldn't get rid of it. I filled in all the fields - the first 2 with valid locations - and filled in the bottom 2 fields but the finish button is greyed out and the error is still there.

    From the help the only clue is perhaps I need to write a project.xml file? If that is the case it's a bit of a joke.

    I use IDEA (I'm not arguing about IDEA is better than ..., I really wanted to give NB a fair try). I create a project in IDEA by telling it where my project root is. IDEA then goes off and finds all the source folders (probably around 100) and builds the list with a checkbox next to each. IDEA used to make you build this list yourself (a long time ago) and it became a nightmare. With netbeans it seems this is still the case and creating such a project is just not practical.
  97. Nope, tried that. At the bottom of the panel it had the error message "You must specify the location of the project's files" and I couldn't get rid of it. I filled in all the fields - the first 2 with valid locations - and filled in the bottom 2 fields but the finish button is greyed out and the error is still there.From the help the only clue is perhaps I need to write a project.xml file? If that is the case it's a bit of a joke.I use IDEA (I'm not arguing about IDEA is better than ..., I really wanted to give NB a fair try). I create a project in IDEA by telling it where my project root is. IDEA then goes off and finds all the source folders (probably around 100) and builds the list with a checkbox next to each. IDEA used to make you build this list yourself (a long time ago) and it became a nightmare. With netbeans it seems this is still the case and creating such a project is just not practical.


    I don't know what you're doing, I just created an existing project based on ant with no issues. Actualy I can go from IDEA, to NB, etc... The only issue I have with Netbeans, is that it doesn't have a continues build like Eclipse, but I'm sure one can write a quick plugin. It should be simple enough. IDEA does this in a different way, but in NB, I can't reference any classes in my current project, unless they are compiled in some directory. This becomes problematic when I use ant and call a clean target, which deletes the build, so I can't reference it anymore from my classpath. I'm not sure how IDEA handles it, but it's smart enough to check for that class existance based on source I guess.

    Ilya
  98. Great release[ Go to top ]

    I've been using netbeans for 5 years and I must say this
    release is the best. And I hope the next release will be better cause I'm going to build a large application on top of NetBeans platform.
    I don't understand the people who hate competition and
    why is necessary to bash the competitor? Eclipse is a good IDE
    I hear from all over the place thus NetBeans sucks, what a logic. There was a great comment about Eclipse and besides being a great IDE its success was largely due to IBM marketing efforts. Maybe many of newcomers who can't see anything beyond
    eclipse don't know that the Eclipse copied the NetBeans model
    like .NET did with Java. I'm not saying it's unfair, it's good
    because After that things start getting better and better. Now
    we've got jdk 1.5 and NetBeans 5.0 with Matisse and many good things. Sun beleives in WORA and I do too and IMHO Eclipse chose a bad path because some day I hope with jdk 1.6 Swing apps won't be obstacles and will run smoothly.
    I'm on solaris express x64, can I run eclipse, no, can I run
    NetBeans with ease and in my benchmarks it runs better than on windows and linux.

    Competition and opensource is the way to go. Peace.
  99. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    Congratulations to the Netbeans Team. Well Done!
  100. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    well done netbeans team!!! any plans to integrate java studio creator with netbeans or perhaps to pump up jsf support in netbeans.
  101. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    well done netbeans team!!! any plans to integrate java studio creator with netbeans or perhaps to pump up jsf support in netbeans.

    No, I don't believe they want to do that. They have three seperate product, for three seperate concerns. Netbeans, Enterprise Studio, and Creator. Netbeans is the open source IDE and is the RCP, plugin architecture, etc..., that all other build on top. Enterprise studio provide additional enterprise functinality, UML, collaboration, etc...

    Creator is for client side, mostly. It's very tightly tied to JSF and is great for either small departmental apps, one off clients that need to connect to backend enterprise services, or can actualy be used on an Enterprise project, but it seperate concern where your GUI designers will have their own tool. I understand that in most cases, people that design services also design the client side GUI, etc..., but they should still have clear seperation of concern. IMO, it's a good move by Sun.

    Ilya
  102. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    No, I don't believe they want to do that. They have three seperate product, for three seperate concerns.

    This has been discussed on other forums.

    It *sounds* like a good idea, but it really turns out to be quite a bad one in practice -- especially as some of us work in all concerns at one time or another on one project. In the end it only causes confusion.

    I believe Sun is actively working on getting studio creator pieces into NetBeans -- and I believe that is absolutely the right thing to do.
  103. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    +1

    totally agree
  104. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    I believe Sun is actively working on getting studio creator pieces into NetBeans -- and I believe that is absolutely the right thing to do.

    That's right, we'll have something like an "enterprise pack" you'll be able to install on top of NetBeans. This will add to NetBeans some of the extra functionality from Creator 2 and Java Studio Enterprise. But I think it all depends what developers will want - given that NetBeans is moduler it's just a matter of proper packaging. Btw, you'll see a preview version of this enterprise pack rather soon - maybe even during this month.
  105. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    I believe Sun is actively working on getting studio creator pieces into NetBeans -- and I believe that is absolutely the right thing to do.
    That's right, we'll have something like an "enterprise pack" you'll be able to install on top of NetBeans. This will add to NetBeans some of the extra functionality from Creator 2 and Java Studio Enterprise. But I think it all depends what developers will want - given that NetBeans is moduler it's just a matter of proper packaging. Btw, you'll see a preview version of this enterprise pack rather soon - maybe even during this month.

    do have any links where we can get more info on this ? thanks!
  106. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    See:

    http://weblogs.java.net/blog/gsporar/archive/2006/02/suns_developer.html

    More information about the enterprise pack will appear on netbeans.org (approx. at the end of this month) - this is something very new, the integration work has just started.
  107. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    That's right, we'll have something like an "enterprise pack" you'll be able to install on top of NetBeans. This will add to NetBeans some of the extra functionality from Creator 2 and Java Studio Enterprise. But I think it all depends what developers will want - given that NetBeans is moduler it's just a matter of proper packaging. Btw, you'll see a preview version of this enterprise pack rather soon - maybe even during this month.

    The big questions here are pricing (e.g. is this pack free and if not, how reasonably priced will it be) and competetiveness.

    If this does not compete well on both fronts with Exadel's latest offering (or insert other JSF WYSIWYG Eclipse add-on here), for instance, then this will hurt NetBeans as a whole. The only big thing I see going for Eclipse is the bandwagon effect it has managed with such commercial add-ons as compared to the number and breadth of these for NB. NB needs competetive components in key solution spaces, e.g. JSF and UML, to be competetive overall long term. If NB can fill these spaces (ideally attracting major 3rd-party vendors to provide alternatives therein), then it will remain a force to be reckoned with.
  108. NetBeans 5.0 Out of Beta[ Go to top ]

    No, I don't believe they want to do that. They have three seperate product, for three seperate concerns.
    This has been discussed on other forums.It *sounds* like a good idea, but it really turns out to be quite a bad one in practice -- especially as some of us work in all concerns at one time or another on one project. In the end it only causes confusion.I believe Sun is actively working on getting studio creator pieces into NetBeans -- and I believe that is absolutely the right thing to do.

    What I would like to see in Netbeans is visual JSP (including JSF) editor or previewer, better JavaScript and CSS support (indention, syntax highlighting, code completion and suggestions) and smart EL/managed beans features like warnings on misspelled names, code completion, go to source and refactoring.

    Creator is too offensive to my design decisions. For instance, I have my own favorite base classes for managed beans. I don’t like an IDE to make any decision how my classes will look like.

    So, I prefer migration of some Creator features in Netbeans, but without drag & drop programming as the leading idea.

    Nebojsa
  109. Ok I admit that is a little sarcastic but I can't believe that I am the only person that thinks that the current 5.0 offering isn't of release quality. I have been using NB since the early days and one thing that has stood true for all that time is the x.0 releases are bug ridden. I really like the new features of 5.0 but I would rather have waited an extra month or two and received a well working product than have to upgrade to 5.1.

    I have only been using 5.0 final for a day or so but already I have found numerous issues that make it's use difficult. For instance: font and colour settings only work about 80% of the time, refactoring code sometimes leaves a blank modal dialog behind, auto complete seems to randomly pop up sometimes, auto complete sometimes won't stop appearing (particularly in XML documents), auto complete no longer automagically adds a closing bracket to methods that take no arguments, CVS seems to have problems detecting if a file is up to date sometimes, etc etc.

    Now if I can find these issues having only used the product for a day how come none of the people using the betas and release candidates could find them? If they did find them how come they weren't fixed before release? I would say many of the issues listed above are core functionality. Sorry to be negative but I really think there are issues with the NB development process that need addressing.
  110. Bugs[ Go to top ]

    Can you file all issues you find into IssueZilla?

    http://www.netbeans.org/community/issues.html

    If you find any major problems it's never too late to create a binary patch which will fix these problems. Note that NetBeans community did an extensive testing together with internal QA. For any issue it's a good idea to try to reproduce it with a fresh userdir.
  111. Bug Reports[ Go to top ]

    I file bug reports pretty much whenever I find a bug and expecially if it is one that is easy to reproduce. Most of the bugs I have been fixed eventually as well. It is just disapointing to see yet another x.0 release that is very buggy and needs a x.1 release to make it work.

    I really like what they have done with the CVS support though. That has been long overdue and makes using CVS almost as simple as it should be.
  112. OSGI[ Go to top ]

    Is netbeans capable to handle OSGI plugins?
  113. Thank You To The NetBeans Team[ Go to top ]

    I just wanted to thank the NetBeans team for making a truely wonderful IDE.

    * The Ant based projects are a great idea and a big help when integrating projects with other Ant based tools, like CruiseControl.

    * Having access to servers like Tomcat and databases and being able to do things like save and replay HTTP messages and execute SQL or browse database structures is a big timesaver.

    * The refactoring tools are really coming along nicely. This was a "must have" feature for NetBeans and you folks did a great job delivering it.

    * All of the GUI improvements, from the Matisse GUI Builder, to the error stripe on the side of the editor, to the general overall look and feel improvements, all add up to a much more pleasent and productive experience. Being able to add custom components to the GUI builder via the Palette Manager is one of my favorite features here. I have many custom-built GUI components in my code-base and using them in the GUI builder is as easy as using built in AWT and Swing components.

    * Code navigation is outstanding, the web-browser-like forward and back buttons, the error stripe, "Find Usages", "Goto Source, "Goto Declaration", the powerful project "Find", TODO lists, and many others are, like the refactoring features, things I use constantly in every session.

    * NetBeans integration with CVS and JUnit are the best and easiest to use I've seen from any tool. I love the JUnit test generation feature.

    * The built in profiling and one-click garbage collection features are really nice to have.

    * Automated generation of J2EE components like EJBs is a fantasic idea. I hope that you agressively expand the IDE's already rich set of code generation capabilities in future releases.

    * I *love* your Flash tutorials at the NetBeans website. They let me pick up how to use new features in the IDE in only a few minutes.

    There's more, of course. The pace of improvements to NetBeans has been staggering. A year or so ago, around the time of NetBeans version 3.6, it would have been easy for Sun to pack it's bags and give in to Eclipse, which was gaining huge market share at the time. Thank you very much for not doing that. Thank you for all the hard work you guys have put into this product. It really shows.
  114. profiler still weak[ Go to top ]

    I keep waiting and waiting for the profiler to be workable. This tool is jus tincrediuble when it works, but it'snearly impossible to get it to woek. Now I see in this release that I can't attach to a running JVM unless it's a 1.4 JVM.
  115. profiler still weak[ Go to top ]

    Now I see in this release that I can't attach to a running JVM unless it's a 1.4 JVM.

    There's a specific reason for that. The NetBeans Profiler uses the JVMTI API to monitor/profile the JVM at runtime. The JVMTI support in JDK 5 does not support dynamic attachment. JDK 6 (Mustang) will have support for dynamic attachment.

    During the development of the NetBeans Profiler (which started at Sun Labs as a research project), a modified version of the 1.4.2 JDK was created that supports dynamic attachment. It was created by the Profiler development team and the necessary changes didn't make it into JDK 5. You can download that modified 1.4.2 JDK from http://profiler.netbeans.org/download/142-support.html

    For other issues/problems with the NetBeans Profiler you can always ask questions and send feedback via email - please see http://profiler.netbeans.org/support.html for more info.