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Java EE 5 passes - ready, set, code!

Posted by: Joseph Ottinger on May 02, 2006 DIGG
JSR 244 - the Java EE 5 specification - has passed unanimously (and, judging from the ballots, rather joyously as well.) This means the specifications under it - JSF 1.2, JSP 2.1, EJB 3.0, JAX-WS, and other specifications - are all set to go, even if the implementations aren't ready for prime time. This clears the way for application server vendors to announce compatibility and support - and means developers can use the new programming models.

Congratulations are in order for the expert group members involved in the set of specifications involved, and this indeed can open the floodgates on the simpler development models in Java EE. Now we get to see how Spring reacts to stay ahead. :)

Threaded replies

·  Java EE 5 passes - ready, set, code! by Joseph Ottinger on Tue May 02 12:38:26 EDT 2006
  ·  Java EE 5 passes - ready, set, code! by Nebojsa Vasiljevic on Tue May 02 13:10:12 EDT 2006
    ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by augustientje bloem on Tue May 02 15:10:52 EDT 2006
      ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by Jess Holle on Tue May 02 21:34:29 EDT 2006
        ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by mexxx _ on Wed May 03 01:00:27 EDT 2006
          ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by eduardo pelegri-llopart on Wed May 03 11:03:42 EDT 2006
            ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by Jess Holle on Wed May 03 12:30:12 EDT 2006
              ·  Tomcat as RI... by eduardo pelegri-llopart on Wed May 03 17:42:28 EDT 2006
                ·  Tomcat as RI... by Jess Holle on Thu May 04 07:39:58 EDT 2006
          ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by Ed Burns on Fri May 12 08:49:25 EDT 2006
          ·  Re: What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by Tony McClay on Tue Jan 15 17:28:28 EST 2008
      ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by Dennis Byrne on Wed May 03 02:11:48 EDT 2006
        ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by Werner Punz on Wed May 03 03:21:11 EDT 2006
          ·  What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2) by eduardo pelegri-llopart on Wed May 03 10:50:19 EDT 2006
    ·  Java EE 5 passes - ready, set, code! by Guglielmo Lichtner on Tue May 02 15:40:26 EDT 2006
  ·  Apache Geronimo, probably accomodates to JEE5 ? by jackson george on Tue May 02 13:27:58 EDT 2006
  ·  Apache Geronimo JEE5 ? by jackson george on Tue May 02 13:32:09 EDT 2006
    ·  Apache Geronimo JEE5 ? by Adam Maroszek on Tue May 02 13:58:13 EDT 2006
      ·  Apache Geronimo JEE5 ? by Joseph Ottinger on Tue May 02 14:01:50 EDT 2006
        ·  Apache Geronimo JEE5 ? by Geir Magnusson Jr on Tue May 02 17:54:23 EDT 2006
          ·  Apache Geronimo JEE5 ? by eduardo pelegri-llopart on Wed May 03 10:53:33 EDT 2006
          ·  Apache Geronimo JEE5 ? by Rick Hightower on Thu May 04 03:15:10 EDT 2006
            ·  Apache Geronimo JEE5 ? by Guido Anzuoni on Thu May 04 04:22:03 EDT 2006
            ·  Apache Geronimo JEE5 ? by Werner Punz on Thu May 04 05:54:17 EDT 2006
  ·  JEE 5 Walkthrough by Carlos D. Morales D. on Tue May 02 18:06:30 EDT 2006
    ·  JEE 5 Walkthrough by Arik Kfir on Tue May 02 18:35:38 EDT 2006
    ·  JEE 5 Walkthrough by Rich Sharples on Wed May 03 02:35:53 EDT 2006
      ·  JEE 5 Walkthrough by Carlos D. Morales D. on Wed May 03 08:22:01 EDT 2006
  ·  Is there something new that is critical? by peter lin on Tue May 02 22:21:22 EDT 2006
    ·  Is there something new that is critical? by Jacob Hookom on Tue May 02 22:57:48 EDT 2006
      ·  Is there something new that is critical (in Servlet/JSP)? by Tim Fennell on Wed May 03 08:14:59 EDT 2006
        ·  I'll second Regexp URL filtering by peter lin on Wed May 03 09:00:20 EDT 2006
        ·  JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter. by Jason Chen on Wed May 03 09:01:32 EDT 2006
          ·  JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter. by Adam Maroszek on Wed May 03 10:05:23 EDT 2006
            ·  JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter. by Guido Anzuoni on Wed May 03 11:02:04 EDT 2006
              ·  JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter. by Rick Hightower on Thu May 04 03:25:08 EDT 2006
            ·  JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter. by Steve Zara on Wed May 03 14:37:04 EDT 2006
            ·  JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter. by Jason Carreira on Thu May 04 10:47:33 EDT 2006
              ·  Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary by Rick Hightower on Thu May 04 13:30:58 EDT 2006
                ·  Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary by Jason Carreira on Thu May 04 13:53:02 EDT 2006
                  ·  Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary by Rick Hightower on Thu May 04 16:42:36 EDT 2006
                ·  Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary by Guido Anzuoni on Thu May 04 15:45:35 EDT 2006
  ·  No Portlets in JEE5. by Victor C. on Tue May 02 22:59:11 EDT 2006
    ·  No Portlets in JEE5. by Jacob Hookom on Tue May 02 23:42:28 EDT 2006
  ·  Best News Of The Month by Mohammed Al-Qaimari on Wed May 03 01:43:58 EDT 2006
    ·  Best News Of The Month by Mark Nuttall on Wed May 03 07:50:31 EDT 2006
  ·  Are Sun and Java EE 5 hostile to Web tier only servers? by Nebojsa Vasiljevic on Wed May 03 03:29:44 EDT 2006
    ·  Are Sun and Java EE 5 hostile to Web tier only servers? by Werner Punz on Wed May 03 05:26:17 EDT 2006
      ·  Are Sun and Java EE 5 hostile to Web tier only servers? by arjan tijms on Wed May 03 07:46:32 EDT 2006
  Message #207632 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Java EE 5 passes - ready, set, code!

Posted by: Nebojsa Vasiljevic on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207628
Congratulations !

Looks like Sun is ready to release Glassfish and NetBeans 5.5 soon.

But what is about Tomcat? It used to be the reference implementation of a servlet container.

Nebojsa

  Message #207634 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo, probably accomodates to JEE5 ?

Posted by: jackson george on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207628
Any new about Apache Geronimo, how long it takes to accomodates to JEE5 ?

  Message #207635 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo JEE5 ?

Posted by: jackson george on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207628
Any news/idea about Apache Geronimo, how long it takes to accomodate JEE5 ? It has a Great Architecure, and now IBM is behind Geronimo, looking forward to that....

  Message #207639 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo JEE5 ?

Posted by: Adam Maroszek on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207635
Any news/idea about Apache Geronimo, how long it takes to accomodate JEE5 ? It has a Great Architecure, and now IBM is behind Geronimo, looking forward to that....

I'm also curious what persistence framework / ORM will Geronimo use?
IMO this is the most important element of Java EE 5 for enterprise applications.

Glassfish's ORM is based on Toplink. Sounds very promising.

http://www.enterpriseware.eu

  Message #207642 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo JEE5 ?

Posted by: Joseph Ottinger on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207639
According to sources, BEA is donating OpenJPA to the Geronimo project, so there would be your default container. OpenJPA isn't ready yet - not that I know of, and BEA's site didn't say it was - but I can't imagine it'd be that far off.

  Message #207651 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: augustientje bloem on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207632
I've been reading through the tomcat and myfaces mailing lists a bit, but both Apache projects don't really seem to have much incentive to rush into the Java EE 5 specs. Contrary to Hibernate who followed the spec-in-development pretty closely, MyFaces seemed to be more concerned with getting their 1.1.2 bug fix release out of the door and creating more stuff for their value added project Tomahawk.

I wonder whether anyone has any idea when the EE 5 web tier will be fully covered by the Tomcat 6/MyFaces 1.2 combination. Of course, both the JSP and JSF specs don't differ that much from their previous versions, but seeing that Tomcat and Myfaces haven't even started it'll probably not be anytime soon.

  Message #207654 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Java EE 5 passes - ready, set, code!

Posted by: Guglielmo Lichtner on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207632
Congratulations !Looks like Sun is ready to release Glassfish and NetBeans 5.5 soon.But what is about Tomcat? It used to be the reference implementation of a servlet container.Nebojsa

I don't know, but the Apache Software Foundation voted yes, so they are ok with it.

Guglielmo

Enjoy the Fastest Known Reliable Multicast Protocol with Total Ordering

.. or the World's First Pure-Java Terminal Driver

  Message #207665 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo JEE5 ?

Posted by: Geir Magnusson Jr on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207642
According to sources, BEA is donating OpenJPA to the Geronimo project, so there would be your default container. OpenJPA isn't ready yet - not that I know of, and BEA's site didn't say it was - but I can't imagine it'd be that far off.

Yes, Open JPA has been accepted by the Apache Incubator, and the basic infrastructure for the project has been created. We're now just waiting on the code drops from BEA. Darn exciting, if you ask me.

Also, one of the nice things about the they-swore-it-wasn't-possible-to-do architecture of EJB3 is that user will be able to switch-even-though-certain-EG-members-said-it-couldn't-be-done between implementations of JPA, so one could swap in the open-source JPA engine from Glassfish if you wanted to try it...

:)

geir

  Message #207667 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE 5 Walkthrough

Posted by: Carlos D. Morales D. on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207628
Is there any site with a tutorial or extensive walkthrough of JEE 5 with Glassfish?

Regards,

Carlos

  Message #207674 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE 5 Walkthrough

Posted by: Arik Kfir on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207667
Try http://glassfish.dev.java.net

  Message #207680 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: Jess Holle on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207651
I wonder whether anyone has any idea when the EE 5 web tier will be fully covered by the Tomcat 6/MyFaces 1.2 combination. Of course, both the JSP and JSF specs don't differ that much from their previous versions, but seeing that Tomcat and Myfaces haven't even started it'll probably not be anytime soon.

I know work on Tomcat to cover the latest specs has been underway for some time.

Unfortunately, it does not appear that Tomcat will support the new specs all but immediately as in the past, which is unfortunate. That's not the Tomcat guys fault as I see it, but rather Sun's for putting a lot more emphasis on an end-to-end Java EE5 reference implementation than the part that is of the most immediate practical use -- a rock solid servlet engine (Tomcat) to support the servlet/JSP portions of the spec in a standalone fashion.

That said, those of us forced to support other servlet engines can't leverage any nice new spec features if they appeared in Tomcat today -- as we have to wait aeons for the pricey, but ever so slow commercial vendors to support the spec, which won't be for a long, long time...

  Message #207681 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Is there something new that is critical?

Posted by: peter lin on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207628
I haven't read the latest spec, so I'm hoping someone who has can shed some light. Is there some new feature or clarification on existing functionality in the latest spec that is critical? Tomcat5.5.x already covers the older spec, which in my bias opinion does what most webapps need.

historically, tomcat has been very good about implementing the specification, but servlet spec has been mature for a while now.

peter

  Message #207683 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Is there something new that is critical?

Posted by: Jacob Hookom on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207681
I haven't read the latest spec, so I'm hoping someone who has can shed some light. Is there some new feature or clarification on existing functionality in the latest spec that is critical? Tomcat5.5.x already covers the older spec, which in my bias opinion does what most webapps need.historically, tomcat has been very good about implementing the specification, but servlet spec has been mature for a while now.

peter

It's mainly features. It's the first JEE spec that's really captured the use of annotations for resource injection, services, persistence, etc. If that doesn't do anything for you, the rest could be considered maintenance revs of the existing specs.

  Message #207684 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

No Portlets in JEE5.

Posted by: Victor C. on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207628
I am honestly suprised.
I guess use tiles everyone.

.V

  Message #207687 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

No Portlets in JEE5.

Posted by: Jacob Hookom on May 02, 2006 in response to Message #207684
I've never gotten why the portlet spec decided to make their own request/response artifacts instead of going the route of compositions or event objects to represent what they needed (EditEvent has a ServletRequest/Response). Most portlet containers that I know of still have to adapt the servlet spec anyways for all other technologies in the webtier, I just don't get it.

  Message #207689 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: mexxx _ on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207680
...
That's not the Tomcat guys fault as I see it, but rather Sun's for putting a lot more emphasis on an end-to-end Java EE5 reference implementation than the part that is of the most immediate practical use -- a rock solid servlet engine (Tomcat) to support the servlet/JSP portions of the spec in a standalone fashion.That said, those of us forced to support other servlet engines can't leverage any nice new spec features if they appeared in Tomcat today -- as we have to wait aeons for the pricey, but ever so slow commercial vendors to support the spec, which won't be for a long, long time...

Really? Tomcat is reference implementation of servlets and JSP. So I don't know what are you balbbering about...

  Message #207690 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Best News Of The Month

Posted by: Mohammed Al-Qaimari on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207628
Best News Of The Month, Congrats.

  Message #207691 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: Dennis Byrne on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207651
Of course, both the JSP and JSF specs don't differ that much from their previous versions, but seeing that Tomcat and Myfaces haven't even started it'll probably not be anytime soon.

MyFaces will be branching for 1.2 very soon, so hide your women and children.

Most of the difficult changes in the 1.1 implementation ( the "back button" problem, client side encryption ) have been completed. Stan Silvert has knocked out a handful of others but we cannot commit this stuff because it may break 1.1 TCK compliance tests.

  Message #207692 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE 5 Walkthrough

Posted by: Rich Sharples on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207667
Is there any site with a tutorial or extensive walkthrough of JEE 5 with Glassfish?Regards,Carlos

I've listed a whole load of tutorials and other Java EE 5 resources here (most of them use GlassFish) :

http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/theaquarium?entry=java_ee_5_learning_resources3

and more to come over the next couple of weeks.

- Rich
Sun Microsystems
http://blogs.sun.com/theaquarium

  Message #207696 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: Werner Punz on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207691
Of course, both the JSP and JSF specs don't differ that much from their previous versions, but seeing that Tomcat and Myfaces haven't even started it'll probably not be anytime soon.
MyFaces will be branching for 1.2 very soon, so hide your women and children. Most of the difficult changes in the 1.1 implementation ( the "back button" problem, client side encryption ) have been completed. Stan Silvert has knocked out a handful of others but we cannot commit this stuff because it may break 1.1 TCK compliance tests.

Besides that to my knowledge J2EE5 requires JSF 1.1, unless things have changed.
The rest is out of the scope of MyFaces (EJB, JPA etc... are entirely different issues)

  Message #207697 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Are Sun and Java EE 5 hostile to Web tier only servers?

Posted by: Nebojsa Vasiljevic on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207628
As I can see, Tomcat 6 will not be released soon. I am using MyFaces will migrate to JSP 2.1/JSF 1.2 for new projects as soon as possible.

It is redicules, but the only way to upgrade the Web tier platform soon is to migrate from a Web tier only server to a full Java EE 5 server.

Nebojsa

  Message #207705 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Are Sun and Java EE 5 hostile to Web tier only servers?

Posted by: Werner Punz on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207697
As I can see, Tomcat 6 will not be released soon. I am using MyFaces will migrate to JSP 2.1/JSF 1.2 for new projects as soon as possible.It is redicules, but the only way to upgrade the Web tier platform soon is to migrate from a Web tier only server to a full Java EE 5 server.Nebojsa

You dont have to upgrade yet, MyFaces as yet does not have implemented the JSF1.2 specs, but soon will.
I am not sure how long it will take to implement 1.2 but I am pretty confident that by the time MyFaces is on 1.2 level servlet runners having the new JSP specs implemented will exist.
(Until then you still can use the 1.1 code branch)
I do not see a real issue here, except that people have a need for some 1.2 stuff, but MyFaces does not support 1.2 currently, but soon will.

  Message #207710 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Are Sun and Java EE 5 hostile to Web tier only servers?

Posted by: arjan tijms on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207705
except that people have a need for some 1.2 stuff, but MyFaces does not support 1.2 currently, but soon will.

Is there any (coarse) roadmap available for MyFaces 1.2? What does 'soon' mean? Are we talking about a few months or is something like a year more in the right direction?

  Message #207712 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Best News Of The Month

Posted by: Mark Nuttall on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207690
Best News Of The Month, Congrats.
Well, it is only May 3. :) Things might even get better in a few days. ;)

  Message #207713 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Is there something new that is critical (in Servlet/JSP)?

Posted by: Tim Fennell on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207683
I haven't read the latest spec, so I'm hoping someone who has can shed some light. Is there some new feature or clarification on existing functionality in the latest spec that is critical? Tomcat5.5.x already covers the older spec, which in my bias opinion does what most webapps need.historically, tomcat has been very good about implementing the specification, but servlet spec has been mature for a while now.peter
It's mainly features. It's the first JEE spec that's really captured the use of annotations for resource injection, services, persistence, etc. If that doesn't do anything for you, the rest could be considered maintenance revs of the existing specs.

I think the original poster was talking about anything new in the Servlet/JSP specification, not JEE 5 as a whole. And I'd have to say it's a resounding no. There's a JavaWorld Article that discusses the changes in the Servlet spec:
  http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-01-2006/jw-0102-servlet.html

And HLS wrote a good summary of what hasn't changed but should have here:
  http://howardlewisship.com/blog/2006/01/servlet-25-wheres-regexp.html

Mosty it seems the new spec involves support for annotations and resource injection in Servlets etc. which seems pretty useless to me as the vast majority of applications will have 1-2 servlets deployed, and those are usually provided by some framework or other.

Meanwhile, we are still lacking things like regular expression URL matching, container-independent programmatic login and other things that would actually make life easier.

-Tim Fennell
Stripes: Because web development should just be easier

  Message #207714 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE 5 Walkthrough

Posted by: Carlos D. Morales D. on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207692
Just what I was looking for!

Thanks Rich

- Carlos

  Message #207716 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

I'll second Regexp URL filtering

Posted by: peter lin on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207713
so it sounds like the new thing is annotations, but that isn't really critical. Regexp URL filtering has been requested hundreds of times, but the spec still doesn't have it. oh well.

peter

  Message #207717 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter.

Posted by: Jason Chen on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207713
We just upgraded our WAS from 5.0 to 5.1 last week. In the mean time, we finally move from JDK1.3 to JDK1.4 officially. And we are still trying to figure out some strange prodcution bugs might be causing by the "new" JDK. One of my project manager friends who works for a major bank is working on their way to new WebLogic installation taht supports JDK 1.4 this week. (05/2006)

As far as I can see, we won't be doing the next upgrade for at least another 4 to 5 years. In the mean time, Spring Framework will still be our best friends for many years to come. :-)

For those who won't be using Tomcat, the JEE5 really means not much at the present time. (I will start to refresh my skills when Tomcat is ready.) However, till now, I still don't know how much better the Java annotation can help to ease the XML configuration world. Only time will tell. (in antoher 5 years)

  Message #207722 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter.

Posted by: Adam Maroszek on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207717
For those who won't be using Tomcat, the JEE5 really means not much at the present time. (I will start to refresh my skills when Tomcat is ready.)

Hmmm... What about EJB3.0 and truly Object Oriented persistence based on such ORM frameworks as Hibernate or Oracle Toplink? What about POJOs that implement business logic?
Finally "domain model" architectural pattern (M.Fowler) has a chance to gain popularity in enterprise deployments.So far "anemic entity" or "transactional script" antipatterns occur way too often.

Personaly I think EJB3.0 is a revolution :) (for Java EE of course , because Hibernate and Toplink have been available for quite a time)

http://www.enterpriseware.eu

  Message #207729 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: eduardo pelegri-llopart on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207696
> Besides that to my knowledge J2EE5 requires JSF 1.1, unless things have changed.

Nope, Java EE 5 requires both JSF 1.2 and JSP 2.1.

JSF 1.2 and JSP 2.1 rev the Expression Language, which is shared among the two. They are also other improvements; The Aquarium (http://blogs.sun.com/theaquarium) covers all of these, check this one:
http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/theaquarium?entry=new_drafts_of_jsf_1

or do a search, like
http://onesearch.sun.com/search/blog/index.jsp?charset=utf-8&col=blog&qt=jsf+1.2&weblog=theaquarium&cs=false&rt=true&rf=1

  - eduard/o

  Message #207730 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo JEE5 ?

Posted by: eduardo pelegri-llopart on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207665
Hi Geir.

> so one could swap in the open-source JPA engine from Glassfish if you
> wanted to try it...

We want to ensure that the GF JPA implementation works with all the other containers that support JPA and we are working on that right now, so send us a pointer when you think Geronimo is ready.

Thanks,
   - eduard/o

  Message #207733 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter.

Posted by: Guido Anzuoni on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207722
Hmmm... What about EJB3.0 and truly Object Oriented persistence based on such ORM frameworks as Hibernate or Oracle Toplink? What about POJOs that implement business logic?Finally "domain model" architectural pattern (M.Fowler) has a chance to gain popularity in enterprise deployments.So far "anemic entity" or "transactional script" antipatterns occur way too often.Personaly I think EJB3.0 is a revolution :) (for Java EE of course , because Hibernate and Toplink have been available for quite a time)
Well, there was no technical need to wait EJB 3.0 to avoid antipatterns.
It is not the case to reopen a debate on JDO/JPA or Annotations misuse, but the facts are there.
IMO, EJB 3.0 is a last resort for an overselling technology rather than a revolution.

Guido

  Message #207734 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: eduardo pelegri-llopart on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207689
> Tomcat is reference implementation of servlets and JSP.

That was true in the past, but it is not the case for the latest Specifications. The reference implementation is based on the Open Source GlassFish code base.

That same implementation is also used in the free Sun's AppServer 9.0 and some others. The corresponding JARs for most of GF are in the process of being made available in binary at the Maven repository at Java.Net. That includes JSF 1.2 (JSF 1.1 should be there later this week), as well as other components like JavaMail and JAF activation.
Check:

http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/theaquarium?entry=glassfish_maven_repository

  - eduard/o

  Message #207744 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: Jess Holle on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207734
> Tomcat is reference implementation of servlets and JSP.That was true in the past, but it is not the case for the latest Specifications. The reference implementation is based on the Open Source GlassFish code base.

This is smart on Sun's part in that their reference implementation is more closely aligned with their own offerings and raises the chance that their offerings will track the spec better than their competitors. It's also good that they can immediately provide an end-to-end reference implementation of the entirety of Java EE 5.

Unfortunately, it's also bad for many of us in that it means the only way to tightly track the spec is to go to a heavy app server rather than stick with the lightweight servlet engine we know and love (Tomcat). The loss of Sun's backing that is an integral part of being the reference implementation will also mean Tomcat will no longer be on the cutting edge of the specs. This fits right in with Sun and other app server vendors play to push the complex all-inclusive app server option and ignore lighter options like standalone servlet engines.

That said I suspect Tomcat will still have quality support for the latest specs prior to many commercial vendors. For instance, Sun's own servlet-engine-only product, which still does not support the servlet 2.4 and JSP 2.0 options (unless they just released this), seems likely to lag by a bit. The version of WebSphere that officially supports Java 5 is also not out yet -- or just out if it is.

  Message #207771 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter.

Posted by: Steve Zara on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207722
Personally I think EJB3.0 is a revolution :)

As you say, it may be a revolution for EJB, but it isn't for current users of POJO persistence, and I think it could have been so much better. It is based, I believe, on JDO, Hibernate and Toplink. I have no experience of Toplink, but EJB 3.0 definitely seems to be a subset of the rich features of Hibernate and JDO 2.0.

  Message #207787 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Tomcat as RI...

Posted by: eduardo pelegri-llopart on May 03, 2006 in response to Message #207744
>> Tomcat is reference implementation of servlets and JSP.That
>> was true in the past, but it is not the case for the latest
>> Specifications. The reference implementation is based on
>> the Open Source GlassFish code base.

> This fits right in with Sun and other app server vendors
> play to push the complex all-inclusive app server option
> and ignore lighter options like standalone servlet engines.

It is possible to take Grizzly (the NIO-based connector) and the Servlet & JSP pieces of GlassFish and make a stand-alone servlet/JSP engine. Our goal, though, is to make the whole thing modular so that you get the best of both worlds. We think we can do it, if we stay focused, but a standalone Web-tier artifact is certainly possible.

re: Tomcat tracking the specs...

I certainly hope so, and would very much welcome it. We are not "against" Apache; I've actually spoken many times about the value to all (community, spec, even products) for multiple "competing" implementations of the same spec. I was on the Spec-writting side of the house and a single dominating implementation is not necessarily a good thing...

I hope we will have opptys during JavaOne to look for more synergies between the Apache and GlassFish communities.

  - eduard/o

  Message #207813 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo JEE5 ?

Posted by: Rick Hightower on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207665
According to sources, BEA is donating OpenJPA to the Geronimo project, so there would be your default container. OpenJPA isn't ready yet - not that I know of, and BEA's site didn't say it was - but I can't imagine it'd be that far off.
Yes, Open JPA has been accepted by the Apache Incubator, and the basic infrastructure for the project has been created. We're now just waiting on the code drops from BEA. Darn exciting, if you ask me.Also, one of the nice things about the they-swore-it-wasn't-possible-to-do architecture of EJB3 is that user will be able to switch-even-though-certain-EG-members-said-it-couldn't-be-done between implementations of JPA, so one could swap in the open-source JPA engine from Glassfish if you wanted to try it...:)geir

I am not very happy with EJB3, but hearing about OpenJPA (KODO based) being donated to Apache is a nice silver lining.

It is nice to see some OpenSource competition to Hibernate.

Rick Hightower (linked in),blog
JSF, Spring, and Hibernate training and consulting

  Message #207814 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter.

Posted by: Rick Hightower on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207733
Hmmm... What about EJB3.0 and truly Object Oriented persistence based on such ORM frameworks as Hibernate or Oracle Toplink? What about POJOs that implement business logic?Finally "domain model" architectural pattern (M.Fowler) has a chance to gain popularity in enterprise deployments.So far "anemic entity" or "transactional script" antipatterns occur way too often.Personaly I think EJB3.0 is a revolution :) (for Java EE of course , because Hibernate and Toplink have been available for quite a time)
Well, there was no technical need to wait EJB 3.0 to avoid antipatterns.It is not the case to reopen a debate on JDO/JPA or Annotations misuse, but the facts are there.IMO, EJB 3.0 is a last resort for an overselling technology rather than a revolution.Guido

RE: EJB 3.0 is a last resort for an overselling technology rather than a revolution.

+1

Rick Hightower (linked in),blog

  Message #207817 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo JEE5 ?

Posted by: Guido Anzuoni on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207813
I am not very happy with EJB3, but hearing about OpenJPA (KODO based) being donated to Apache is a nice silver lining.It is nice to see some OpenSource competition to Hibernate.Rick Hightower (linked in),blogJSF, Spring, and Hibernate training and consulting
For sake of completeness it is important to note that KODO core runtime together with JPA implementation will be available as opensource. JDO implementation built on top of
KODO core runtime will not.
BEA gave no explaination for their choice and, recently, they have announced the delay of KODO 4 release, implementing JDO2 spec, to wait EJB3 approval.
I don't know if I am the only one who thinks at this as a precise strategy to discourage JDO use in favour of JPA.
Anyway, it is not nice to see.

Guido

  Message #207827 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Apache Geronimo JEE5 ?

Posted by: Werner Punz on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207813
According to sources, BEA is donating OpenJPA to the Geronimo project, so there would be your default container. OpenJPA isn't ready yet - not that I know of, and BEA's site didn't say it was - but I can't imagine it'd be that far off.
Yes, Open JPA has been accepted by the Apache Incubator, and the basic infrastructure for the project has been created. We're now just waiting on the code drops from BEA. Darn exciting, if you ask me.Also, one of the nice things about the they-swore-it-wasn't-possible-to-do architecture of EJB3 is that user will be able to switch-even-though-certain-EG-members-said-it-couldn't-be-done between implementations of JPA, so one could swap in the open-source JPA engine from Glassfish if you wanted to try it...:)geir
I am not very happy with EJB3, but hearing about OpenJPA (KODO based) being donated to Apache is a nice silver lining.It is nice to see some OpenSource competition to Hibernate.Rick Hightower (linked in),blogJSF, Spring, and Hibernate training and consulting

Add to that the reference implementation based on the Toplink core code. ;-)

  Message #207836 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Tomcat as RI...

Posted by: Jess Holle on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207787
It is possible to take Grizzly (the NIO-based connector) and the Servlet & JSP pieces of GlassFish and make a stand-alone servlet/JSP engine. Our goal, though, is to make the whole thing modular so that you get the best of both worlds. We think we can do it, if we stay focused, but a standalone Web-tier artifact is certainly possible.

It would be great if this was more than "possible" and something one *could* do. Rather it would be much better to have a clearly documented ready-to-use standalone servlet/JSP engine module.

  Message #207855 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

JEE5 ? maybe 5 years latter.

Posted by: Jason Carreira on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207722
Personaly I think EJB3.0 is a revolution :) (for Java EE of course , because Hibernate and Toplink have been available for quite a time)

Is it a revolution if you're following someone else's (well worn) footsteps?

Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary and look at the world around them. EJB3 did that, to an extent, so it's better than it has been...

  Message #207873 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary

Posted by: Rick Hightower on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207855
Personaly I think EJB3.0 is a revolution :) (for Java EE of course , because Hibernate and Toplink have been available for quite a time)
Is it a revolution if you're following someone else's (well worn) footsteps? Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary and look at the world around them. EJB3 did that, to an extent, so it's better than it has been...

It seems they deviated from the path quite a bit.

EJB 3.0 is much better than EJB 2.x.
If you compare EJB3 to an older version
of EJB, EJB3 is a boon; however,
if you compare EJB3 to Spring and
Hibernate, it stinks.

The related OR (Object Relation)
Persistent API does not have a criteria
API specified; any persistent API that
does not define a criteria API is not
finished.

The AOP support in EJB3 is broken.
EJB3 has a method interceptor, but
no pointcuts. In addition, the method
interceptors are declared and imported
with class-level annotations. This
effectively tightly couples the class
to the method interceptors that decorate
it (Can you smell the bad odor?).

Rod Johnson mentioned thess
same problems about EJB3 Method
Interceptors at TSS (in his
talk "Are We There Yet") and went on to
mention many limitations on the
@Resource style of DI, the absence
of FactoryBeans, post
processors, Constructor Injection,
lists/maps, and a lot of the features
Spring developers know and love are
just missing. The EJB3 JSR members
did not look enough at the prior art
in this space and created their own
limited version of what was already
available.

After three years of deliberation,
the JCPs delivered EJB3, which is
inferior to de facto standards. Many
parts of EJB3 are a big step backward
from Spring, and, to many,
EJB3 is broken. As Bruce Tate says
about EJB3: "Don't make me eat the
elephant again."

  Message #207876 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary

Posted by: Jason Carreira on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207873
Yes, that's why I said "to an extent"... It's like Guy Steele's quote:
"We were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp."

- Guy Steele, Java spec co-author

So EJB3 will drag people halfway from EJB2 towards Spring / Hibernate / JDO. Then they'll be able to see what the value of those other de-facto standards are as they run into the limitations.

  Message #207884 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary

Posted by: Guido Anzuoni on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207873
The AOP support in EJB3 is broken.EJB3 has a method interceptor, but no pointcuts. In addition, the method interceptors are declared and imported with class-level annotations. This effectively tightly couples the class to the method interceptors that decorate it (Can you smell the bad odor?).
The EJB3 JSR members did not look enough at the prior art in this space and created their own limited version of what was already available.After three years of deliberation,the JCPs delivered EJB3, which is inferior to de facto standards. Many parts of EJB3 are a big step backward from Spring, and, to many,EJB3 is broken. As Bruce Tate says about EJB3: "Don't make me eat the elephant again."

Magic !!!!
Evidence made clear.

Guido.

  Message #207887 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Standards shouldn't be revolutions, they should be evolutionary

Posted by: Rick Hightower on May 04, 2006 in response to Message #207876
Yes, that's why I said "to an extent"... It's like Guy Steele's quote:
"We were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp."- Guy Steele, Java spec co-author
So EJB3 will drag people halfway from EJB2 towards Spring / Hibernate / JDO. Then they'll be able to see what the value of those other de-facto standards are as they run into the limitations.

For once we are in violent agreement. :o)

It is good to be on the same side of any argument with you.

EJB3 is an gateway drug to something better...

Rick Hightower (linked in),blog
JSF, Spring, and Hibernate training and consulting

  Message #208584 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: Ed Burns on May 12, 2006 in response to Message #207689
Not any more. Now Glassfish is the reference implementation, and also the basis for the production quality Sun App Server 9, and also the basis for the Java EE SDK, which can be downloaded from http://java.sun.com/javaee/5.

Ed Burns (JSF co-spec lead)

  Message #245262 Post reply Post reply Post reply Go to top Go to top Go to top

Re: What about the web tier? (Tomcat 6 and MyFaces 1.2)

Posted by: Tony McClay on January 15, 2008 in response to Message #207689
Well folks, if you have not looked in a while it is worth taking a re-look at the specification. There is a reason why Tomcat is no longer the reference implementation of JSP's and servlets.

Because of the resource injection engine for JNDI Objects based on the meta-data tags that can reside in the Servley/jsp code, Glassfish J2EE is the reference implementation of the JSP's and servlets. This server does not start as quickly as Tomcat, but you will find it as functional, and easier to administer, through the Glassfish admin console.

Besides, for the speed freaks, because glassfish uses the the Java NIO (New Non-blocking IO) the service engine is faster. I believe the code has been given back to Apache to re-integrate.

Basically, it is a great web container for standard war files.

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