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News: Tech Talk: The Future of Enterprise Java

  1. Tech Talk: The Future of Enterprise Java (21 messages)

    In this panel, moderated by Ted Neward at TSSJS in March, Cameron Purdy, Rod Johnson, Bruce Snyder, Bruce Tate, Floyd Marinescu and Ari Zilka engage in a lively discussion highlighting the current state of the Java platform, its strengths and shortcomings and where they think the language is headed. Topics include Web 2.0, the persistence framework and EJB3, Linux and Java, and open source. Watch The Future of Enterprise Java.

    Threaded Messages (21)

  2. This is an excellent panel which touched upon a lot of hard questions, like what is the role of EJB? I wrote a summary of the panel if anyone is interested. Floyd
  3. Its not surprising that some of the 'industry experts', question the role EJB, but you have to question their intent and motivations for this. Spring was dropped from our development environments, a while ago as we saw a lack of support for EJB3 in addition to other issues. So its not surprising to see 'industry experts' question the role of EJB.
  4. It depends on how you look at the EJB-"industry experts" relation. Probably Spring lacks EJB3 support BECAUSE the experts think EJB's are useless. This means thinking from the right hand of the relation (the industry experts'). You are placing yourself left of the relation ;)
  5. Its not surprising that some of the 'industry experts', question the role EJB, but you have to question their intent and motivations for this.

    Spring was dropped from our development environments, a while ago as we saw a lack of support for EJB3 in addition to other issues. So its not surprising to see 'industry experts' question the role of EJB.
    So you dropped something that is standard and used extensively because it doesn't support something completely new and of questionable value?
  6. standard?[ Go to top ]

    Spring was dropped from our development environments, a while ago as we saw a lack of support for EJB3
    So you dropped something that is standard and used extensively because it doesn't support something completely new and of questionable value?
    Spring is a standard? Maybe Spring is of questionable value? Quick, dismiss me because I "don't get it".
  7. Re: standard?[ Go to top ]

    Spring was dropped from our development environments, a while ago as we saw a lack of support for EJB3


    So you dropped something that is standard and used extensively because it doesn't support something completely new and of questionable value?


    Spring is a standard?
    Spring "is standard". There is no 'a' in that phrase. How many companies use Spring vs. how many use EJB 3?
    Maybe Spring is of questionable value?
    Maybe it is. But that's not the reason that was given above.


    Quick, dismiss me because I "don't get it".
    Quick, write more passive-agressive comments. I don't even use Spring and I really don't know all that much about it. However, that has no bearing on whether it's logical to get rid of something because it doesn't implement EJB3.
  8. Huh ?[ Go to top ]

    <<Spring "is standard". There is no 'a' in that phrase. How many companies use Spring vs. how many use EJB 3?>> Umm ... using that criterion, shouldn't we be discussing Microsoft technologies ? Although the post is a little funny, you have to admit : you haven't worked with Spring (I haven't either, but I certainly have heard a lot about it ...) but you believe that enough people do to make it 'standard' ... which suggests that, at least, the Spring marketing arm is doing its job. In what sense is Spring 'standard' ? In my view, 'standard' is more likely to be 'something in Sun J2EE' than 'something lots of people use right now'.
  9. Re: Huh ?[ Go to top ]

    <<spring "is="" standard".="" there="" is="" no="" 'a'="" in="" that="" phrase.="" how="" many="" companies="" use="" spring="" vs.="" ejb="" 3?="">>

    Umm ... using that criterion, shouldn't we be discussing Microsoft technologies ?
    Why? Did someone write that they dropped a Microsoft technology from their development environments because it doesn't implement EJB 3 in this thread? I must have missed that.
    Although the post is a little funny, you have to admit : you haven't worked with Spring (I haven't either, but I certainly have heard a lot about it ...) but you believe that enough people do to make it 'standard' ...
    It's clearly used more than EJB3 at this time. You aren't contradicting that, are you?
    which suggests that, at least, the Spring marketing arm is doing its job.
    blah blah blah... More irrelevant noise.
    In what sense is Spring 'standard' ?

    In my view, 'standard' is more likely to be 'something in Sun J2EE' than 'something lots of people use right now'.
    standard - adjective 2 a : regularly and widely used, available, or supplied b : well-established and very familiar http://www.m-w.com/ While 'standard' can mean what you suggest, there are thousands of 'standards' that no one cares about or follows. It's fairly unclear whether EJB will ever amount to anything. It might be the greatest thing ever. I don't know. EJB 1.1 and 2.0 are horrible but so many people were sure that they were the ultimate answers to the persistence problem. I'm not quite ready to drink the EJB 3 kool-aid yet and I can't see any reason to start tearing things down over it.
  10. What if J2EE specs are crap?[ Go to top ]

    Really. Why is J2EE standard? Just because it comes from Sun and JCR? EJBs haven't proven it's worth yet. Spring has.
  11. Spring was dropped from our development environments, a while ago as we saw a lack of support for EJB3 in addition to other issues.
    Spring does provide JPA support, unless you were referring to other parts of the EJB3 spec that aren't yet integrated...
  12. Floyd had devoted a lot of effort on EJB (including his famous EJB Pattern book). If he was not disputing the value of Spring and advocating EJB3 (excluding JPA), EJB3 (excluding JPA) definitely looks a dead end to me. Its quite interesting that no one on the panel even mentioned JSF, the other heavily marketed hype in JavaEE5. One might easily conclude that JavaEE5 have questionable value (or little value) over J2EE, other than JPA which is already much used today with J2EE in one form (Hibernate) or another (JDO). One might also conclude that "The Future of Enterprise Java" could be a lot of things, but not JavaEE5.
  13. ts quite interesting that no one on the panel even mentioned JSF, the other heavily marketed hype in JavaEE5.
    I suspect it is because it isn't that controversial anymore. There are very well-established and extremely productive ways of using JSF - the superb facelets for example. There are major new projects that involve JSF, such as Seam. There are good feature-rich implementations such as IceFaces and MyFaces. Spring has excellent support for JSF.
  14. May be I'm asking too much. But for the love of god, please include an PAUSE button. Also, it will be better if the quality of the audio is a bit better. Try http://channel9.msdn.com In any case, Macromedia has a great flash/shockwave based player that many sites are using these days (video.google.com for example), it gives a lot more control on what the user can do. And I see the "Preview" button while editing this comment. Is it new ? Yey !!!
  15. There is a pause function..[ Go to top ]

    Right-click on the video and the popup menu allows you to pause.
  16. I know it is the weekend but could we get some serious discussion going on what the panel said versus focusing on their supposed biases? Here is a big news alert: The whole point of assembling a "panel of experts" is to get their opinions. And opinions are based on what? Personal experience and research - you know, bias. There are different kinds of standards so what is the issue? There are standards like EJB that are decided upon by an organized group. Then there are defacto standards like Spring, Log4j, ant, which were adopted by many because they solve a problem. I still have never been on a project where the "standard" java logging framework has been used in favor of Log4j. I don't think it is as easy to reduce Spring down to just hype or a buzzword. It has stood some test of time as a framework and has moved into some pretty conservative environments (e.g I'm working for a pretty large insurance company and Spring is being used quite a bit). I know it has shown a lot of value in the projects I've been on. EJB3 is a standard in name only. It has to prove itself before it will be strongly adopted. I don't believe that just because it is a Sun standard that companies will be flocking to adopt it. Back when EJB2 came out there were not that many competitors in the Javasphere so it seemed like "the" answer. Now there are many more choices, which I believe is a good thing. Why would I blindly move to EJB3 when I have a stable enterprise platform that doesn't require an expensive container? That said I'm looking forward to seeing how EJB3 does in the marketplace. If it succeeds it will demonstrate a model of letting open source projects solve a problem then making a standard API off the successes. Isn't it true that EJB3 came out of the success of projects like Spring and Hibernate? Have a good weekend everybody. ______________ George Coller DevilElephant
  17. ...[ Go to top ]

    I would have liked to see a bit more regarding their thoughts on SOA in general. To me that has more hype than anything currently out there, and JBI seems to be something that nobody talks about (obviously).
  18. [OT] please let me pause[ Go to top ]

    I like listening to these casts at work while I'm working, however enevatably I get a call or something needs attention and I have to put down my head phones. There is no pause button. You hit "stop" and then "play" and it takes you to the beginning. Uhhhgggg... Sorry for the offtopic post, eventually I'll be able to hear the entire panel discussion and actually contribute a real on-topic post. Craig.
  19. Re: [OT] please let me pause[ Go to top ]

    I like listening to these casts at work while I'm working, however enevatably I get a call or something needs attention and I have to put down my head phones. There is no pause button. You hit "stop" and then "play" and it takes you to the beginning.

    Uhhhgggg...

    Sorry for the offtopic post, eventually I'll be able to hear the entire panel discussion and actually contribute a real on-topic post.

    Craig.
    Yes, I had that same experience. Also, the presentation just stopped for no apparent reason about half-way through.
  20. Re: [OT] please let me pause[ Go to top ]

    Actually, why can't we just download the damn video? Is TSS afraid people are going to pirate this stuff? It's not really appealing to a large audience? Does anyone think this is going to be shared on P2P networks or burned to DVD and sold on the streets of NY? It seems pretty paranoid and it's extremely inconvienient.
  21. SOA[ Go to top ]

    As I mentioned here http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=41224#213134 I wished the Enterprise Java panel at the SS symposium would have talked a bit more about SOA in general. Has anyone dowloaded ServiceMix and played with it? Even with such a great framework, SOA doesn't come across as a simple concept to implement across (our) enterprise. Has anyone gone to an Oracle/etc SOA presentation? (Let alone priced out their SOA stack). Tell me that looks like it comes without complexity. At the end of the day it's just complexity with a different flavor. In fact, I found it amusing that at the last Oracle SOA conference I went to, the project lead of a real-world SOA solution admitted that the part of their SOA functionality which was to be handled by Business Analysts was pushed back to the developers because it was too complex for the business. For my company at least, SOA seems like overkill when faced with challenges that can be solved with EAI concepts. And Spring is simplifying this in a lot of ways for us.
  22. Oops[ Go to top ]

    ^^^ Apologies. Wrong thread :(