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The first release of SmartGWT - GWT APIs for SmartClient
SmartGWT is not just another Widget library. While most Ajax frameworks focus primarily on presentation and displaying mostly read-only data, either local or via XML / JSON, SmartClient was built with server side integration in mind. Most enterprise applications are not just about about data presentation, but about being able to propagate data changes made by the user to the backend. So while its tempting to use library X that has a cool tree widget, it's not until you actually try to use it your application that you encounter the real world hard problems.
Most Ajax frameworks stop short and leave it up to the user to manage state on the client side and propagating the changes to the server. This is not a trivial problem! Over the past few years UI widget libraries have improved significantly and there are now various options available to users. Simply put, having good looking widgets is not the hard problem today. In addition to having good looking widgets, having end-to-end integration of the UI components with the backend is the hard problem. It's this 20% of the functionality that takes 80% of the time in building most enterprise applications.
As you can see from the SmartGWT Showcase, it provides one of the most comprehensive open source widget collections available in any framework today.
Read more here: http://www.jroller.com/sjivan/entry/smartgwt_1_0_released .
Download here: http://code.google.com/p/smartgwt/ .
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Message #279939
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Re: The first release of SmartGWT - GWT APIs for SmartClient
Congratulations to Sanjiv and the SmartClient team! It's exceptional work and was done very quickly.
Just a quick question: does anyone know if the integration is in GWT-EXT style (wrapping the javascript) or EXT-GWT style (more native to GWT).
Andrew
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Message #279941
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it's based on SmartClient
Hi Andrew,
It's done GWT-Ext style, so we were able to get substantially all of SmartClient's APIs in the first release (around 4000, with 500 classes).
This also means better cross-browser insulation than with stock GWT. For example, you can do sophisticated theming work in an object-oriented way, with only rudimentary knowledge of CSS (no layout/quirks knowledge required).
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Message #279948
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how about it-mill
good job,
I was about to use it-mill when you release this first version, now I am hesitating...
can you please, tell us how it differs from it-mill, because it-mill provide the server side integration and it is also based on gwt widget
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Message #279956
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Re: The first release of SmartGWT - GWT APIs for SmartClient
Andrew, thanks for the comments. I go over some of the details and the reasoning behind the decisions made in building SmartGWT here :
http://www.infoq.com/news/2008/11/smartgwt
Thanks Sanjiv. You've done some great work here and very quickly, and I really have to thank you for providing a superior (and free!) alternative to EXT-GWT! The Ext discussions were distressing for all concerned...
Thanks also to the SmartClient guys for a superb JS framework.
Andrew
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Message #279989
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SmartGWT is not free for deployment
SmartGWT is a excellent library but it is not free.
The website http://www.smartclient.com/product/licensing.jsp mentions that it is free for evaluation not deployment.
The following quote
Evaluation: Free
SmartClient is available for a free developer evaluation. You can register and immediately download a full-featured evaluation. Licensed versions of SmartClient are a drop-in replacement for the Evaluation Edition.
Intranet / Internal Applications: $1195 per developer (Unlimited CPUs, Users)
SmartClient Intranet Edition allows unlimited development and deployment of intranet applications, including organization-specific applications built by external consultants or system integrators.
Small Vendor Product/Service: $1950 per developer (Unlimited Customers, CPUs, Users)
Check the site for more info
http://www.smartclient.com/product/licensing.jsp
Maybe Andrew will like clarify the license of SmartGWT.
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Message #279990
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SmartGWT is not free for deployment
SmartGWT is a excellent library but it is not free.
The website http://www.smartclient.com/product/licensing.jsp mentions that it is free for evaluation not deployment.
The following quote
Evaluation: Free
SmartClient is available for a free developer evaluation. You can register and immediately download a full-featured evaluation. Licensed versions of SmartClient are a drop-in replacement for the Evaluation Edition.
Intranet / Internal Applications: $1195 per developer (Unlimited CPUs, Users)
SmartClient Intranet Edition allows unlimited development and deployment of intranet applications, including organization-specific applications built by external consultants or system integrators.
Small Vendor Product/Service: $1950 per developer (Unlimited Customers, CPUs, Users)
Check the site for more info
http://www.smartclient.com/product/licensing.jsp
Maybe Andrew will like clarify the license of SmartGWT.
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Message #279992
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vs IT Mill Tookit
@spambl spambl
tell us how it differs from it-mill
It is seems to me (more informed users correct me if I'm wrong) that the biggest is the programming model - IT Mill Toolkit has a more pure code-in-pure-java-only, where you use familiar java to create UI components serverside. SmartClient on the other hand has a different approach: to define gui components you either use declarative XML, or client-side JavaScript (or using SmartGWT, of course).
That is: "SmartClient was built with server side integration in mind", whereas IT Mill Toolkit _is_ integrated with the server - in effect you do not have to think about the client/server communication, you just program as if you where programming a stand-alone application, and the framework takes care of the rest. In the end, these are different approaches for achieving the same thing.
Ultimately, I really think you should try both to see which feels right to you: get both development environments up and running, and try making a simple application.
If the licensing options for SmartClient are acceptable for your project, that is.
And yes, I'm working with IT Mill Toolkit daily, so I'm definately biased: I like it. ;-)
http://www.itmill.com/itmill-toolkit/
http://www.smartclient.com/
Best Regards,
Marc
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Message #279997
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Re: SmartGWT is not free for deployment
SmartGWT is a excellent library but it is not free
Well, I can't speak for Sanjiv or the SmartClient guys, but apart from the Enterprise offering (GUI builder and Spring integration + other goodies), both SmartGWT and SmartClient are LGPL.
So, all of the showcase examples and stuff you've seen so far are free to use even commercially for anything including deployment.
http://www.smartclient.com/product/smartLGPL.jsp
The SmartClient people have even written a letter to state that they will not do a license switcheroo in the future, a la Ext.
http://www.jroller.com/sjivan/entry/smartgwt_gwt_api_s_for
As I said, i can't speak for these guys as I have no direct affiliation with either project except as a user. However, i have been vastly impressed by their honesty and desire to push GWT further. Particularly when compared to the previous Ext discussions.
Obviously, though, SmartClient have commercial offerings. The SmartClient people make money presumably though training, consulting, support and the enterprise offering. That's a fair deal -- larger enterprises tend to be happy to pay this, although it's by no means required to use the SmartClient/GWT stuff. Also, many companies pay to avoid any reference to LGPL. Strange, but true.
SmartClient also have another commercial offering:
https://www.isomorphic.com/product/intranetEdition.jsp
I'm guessing (although it's not 100% clear) that this paid offering includes commercial dev support and some of their commercial back-end Java integration tools.
(could someone from the SmartClient side comment on whether what i've written is accurate?)
Sanjiv also did a commercial offering layered on top of GWT-EXT. Again, there was no compulsion to use this (you could use GWT-EXT free until Ext changes the underlying Ext license). Nobody minds this sort of venture as long as underlying licenses are not changed.
Andrew
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Message #280020
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Yes, SmartGWT/SmartClient is free for deployment
Yes Andrew, you are entirely correct, both about the free version and the services and commercial versions we offer.
The very first line on the licensing page that GeekyCoder quoted from in detail is "SmartClient LGPL: Free and Open Source". This is pretty unambiguous :) GeeekyCoder is likely an unscrupulous competitor or hijacked account.
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Message #280023
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Re: vs IT Mill Tookit
Hi Marc,
Good attempt, but it would be better to be familiar with *both* products in order to compare them more clearly :)
As an example of SmartClient's server functionality, you can use a wizard in Visual Builder to define the fields of an object, and SmartClient handles all CRUDs operations on that object through Hibernate or various SQL engines without writing a single line of code, in a model that allows you to add Java business logic later that either extends or replaces the built-in CRUD mechanism, without any change in UI code.
We happen to use the term "integration" but I don't think it could be made simpler than we make it :)
As far as the IT Mill toolkit - their online showcase does not show many capabilities typical in other "RIA" solutions (too many gaps to list really), and in brief testing, even trivial interactions were making server round trips, which is a problem for responsiveness and server load. We've never seen IT Mill come up in a competitive evaluation so I can't really comment further.
OTOH their product is Apache licensed which matters to some.
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Message #280029
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Re: SmartGWT is not free for deployment
It seems to me that the server side components are not included in the lgpl version, so I guess you can't do any server interaction with ajax, not in an easy way anyway.
Cheers, Bo
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Message #280033
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Re: SmartGWT is not free for deployment
It seems to me that the server side components are not included in the lgpl version, so I guess you can't do any server interaction with ajax, not in an easy way anyway.
Cheers, Bo
Why couldn't you just use the standard GWT comms mechanisms? You've got async http via RequestBuilder, XML and JSON serialisation, and GWT-RPC.
I presume the SmartClient server integration includes GUI-database bindings and the like.
Andrew
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Message #280095
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SmartClient has easy server bindings
Plastered all over the SmartClient website are docs, examples and overviews showing how you can do server binding very easily without our commercial offering. Can't miss it. This style of integration is in use at many large production installations and is often the preferred method for SOA deployments with loosely coupled services.
Also, the model for server interaction (based on DataSources) solves the hard parts of server interaction, such as data paging, adaptive filtering, optimistic concurrency, cache updates, and handling of server-generated validation and other errors. We make the overall process of creating full CRUD binding to your data model much simpler than you'll find with other RIA technologies, especially if you have a large number of objects with complex relationships.
Can I just say WOW, lots of people take a very cursory look and post misinformation here, eh? That's a very irresponsible thing to do, especially to a quality open source project.
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Message #280114
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Re: SmartClient has easy server bindings
Hi Charles,
Very nice, in my evaluation for a light RIA tool, SmartClient is on top of the list.
Now, the hidden license traps usually negates the potential. So, without revealing the guts of our organization and application vision, can you explain what "Intranet" license means? (Without talking to sales)
Thus, does an "Internet" license means, SmartClient needs to scale??? with our potential? Appreciate the non-CPU license count. In fact, this was a big factor regarding using Icefaces JSF/Ajax components, can't believe vendors still doing this.
Can you please explain in simple terms about "Extranet", hint we're am research organization and don't want a license limitation restricting our reach.
Anxiously awaiting your reply, SmartClient would be a great SOA user client (even portlets) to our GlassFish ESB base!
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Message #280116
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Re: SmartClient has easy server bindings
That's a very irresponsible thing to do, especially to a quality open source project.
It's worth remembering that the backdrop of this is the unfortunate Ext-Js discussions where Ext changed the license of their open source stuff.
From that perspective, the SmartGWT stuff perhaps seems too good to be true ;-) People are always looking for the "catch".
To make thing crystal clear, perhaps the language of the licenses page could do with a bit of clarification. A cursory read doesn't make fully clear the difference between the free and the intranet version. As a result, some people are forming to the erroneous view that deployment costs money. Perhaps just a sentence of 2 on that page to differentiate the intranet version?
Cheers,
Andrew
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Message #280117
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Clarification
"Can I just say WOW, lots of people take a very cursory look and post misinformation here, eh? That's a very irresponsible thing to do, especially to a quality open source project."
Hi Andrew,
thank for the clarification, you have communicated well what I need to know.
Hi Charles,
GeekyCoder is definitely not someone working for your competitor :^}. He just happen to be someone who love to develop software, but he also aware that software license may not be what it seems sometimes especially company that sell both LGPL and commercial license at same time and so it is good to clarify it clearly.
But rather than than simply assume that developer is there to misrepresent the information intentionally or sabotage the product , will it be better to find the root cause behind it ? Could it be product website did not market and communicate the product well enough, or if the site need to further improve on its organization.
So here my thought.
When I go to Smartclient http://www.smartclient.com
I was presented with the main page that doesn't show what the product there is, only what SmartClient do.
So I click on the product icon, and it comes a page showing more links but no product info http://www.smartclient.com/product/index.jsp
===========================
Try out the online examples to get a taste of SmartClient's capabilities, and of the code that exposes them.
Browse the developer documentation for more in-depth technical details of the SmartClient system.
Download the SDK to put SmartClient through its paces in your own client and server environments.
Review licensing options and put SmartClient to work for your business.
============================
So rather than wasting more time, I click on Download icon http://www.smartclient.com/product/download.jsp
I see the following
====================================
SmartClient LGPL (free and open source - works with any server). Includes Java Server to provide several free tools for use with any server.
Download SmartClient 6.5.1 LGPL (.zip format)
Download SmartClient 6.5.1 LGPL (.tar.gz format)
Full-featured evaluation: Works with any server, includes SmartClient Java Server, Visual Builder, Analytics, Realtime Messaging, Network Performance.
Download SmartClient 6.5.1 Evaluation (.zip format)
Download SmartClient 6.5.1 Evaluation (.tar.gz format)
Intranet Edition: Works with any server, includes SmartClient Java Server, Visual Builder. Other modules available separately.
Purchase SmartClient 6.5.1 Intranet Edition
Small Vendor Edition: Works with any server, includes SmartClient Java Server, Visual Builder. Other modules available separately.
Purchase SmartClient 6.5.1 Small Vendor Edition
===================================
So I ask myself why is there SmartClient 6.5.1 LGPL and SmartClient 6.5.1 Evaluation (to evaluate means it is highly a commercal product) ? and what is Purchase doing down there. (That how I thought something might look fishy)
Charles,
now you can figure out if the site could improve on its site communication and layout base on feedback from visitor like me. SmartClient does not suffer technically as a product as it is a excellent library, rather marketing and communication could be improved to make SmartClient standout. First impression does count and the website could likely improve on that.
So the following is my humble suggestions:
On main page,
show all products with description (like www.jgraph.com)
On product page,
do show Products price and description, download link, and not just More links to click.
Can it add a Purchase icon next to Product icon too ?
On Download page,
Show clearly the product that is LGPL free and those that are commercial offerings. And avoid using name with product that is free and commercial as well. (SmartClient 6.5.1 Evaluation and SmartClient 6.5.1 LGPL)
For example, download page shows following format
<Free Version>
SmartClient 6.5.1 + Description
Download SmartClient 6.5.1 LGPL
<Commercial Version Evaluation>
SmartClient 6.5.1 Enterprise + Description
Download SmartClient 6.5.1 Enterprise Evaluation
SmartClient 6.5.1 Intranet + Description
Download SmartClient 6.5.1 Intranet Evaluation
Charles,
hope the suggestion help, and I wish SmartClient becoming a popular and successful product, and it might just be recognized as the "Swing library of the GWT world".
Cheers...
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Message #280123
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Re: What "Intranet Edition" commercial license means
Hi George,
Click through on the Intranet Edition link for a FAQ on that license, including answers to your questions and the full license text.
https://www.isomorphic.com/product/intranetEdition.jsp
On the meaning of "Intranet" in particular:
===
Do the applications have to be deployed on-site at the licensed company?
No, the applications can be deployed anywhere, including an external datacenter or at multiple geographically distributed locations ... The "Intranet" restriction refers to the users of the application, who must be employees or contractors of the licensed company.
===
Note if this doesn't suit your purposes there is the Small Vendor Edition which does not carry this restriction, which we also use for larger organizations so long as do not required customized contract wording or liability protections like indemnity.
Regardless of the organization, we offer per-developer pricing with unlimited deployment, a straightforward predictable cost model that never balloons into unexpected fees.
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Message #280126
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Re: Clarification
@GeekyCoder: while I welcome feedback on the nuances of the site, and you make some good suggestions for the download page that we will probably implement, the page you actually quoted provides exactly the information you were looking for with exactly the layout you suggest:
http://www.smartclient.com/product/licensing.jsp
So: you're on a page "Licensing Options" that spells out the different editions of SmartClient, with major headings SmartClient LGPL: free and open source and Enterprise Packages with a list of enterprise-specific features, but you ignore this, you ignore the offered links to further details and FAQs, you take the time to selectively quote from this page, and finally end up posting here - not a question, which would have been fine - but an authoritative statement claiming SmartClient was not free, directly contradicting major headings of the page you quoted from.
Personally, I can't understand how you would end up posting what you did while you were looking at that particular page. I really don't understand why what you posted wasn't a question rather than a statement.
We put a lot of effort into creating a free product and getting press for it, and your factually incorrect statement appears prominently in the discussion. In your position, I would be owning up to this as a mistake rather than trying to blame the people who are affected by your mistake, and then I would email the moderator to see about having the post corrected.
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Message #280293
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Reasonabe Server Faces and Smartclient
I work for a financial institution and we used Reasonable Server faces (RSF) with Smartclient and the JSON integration works well. The client side toolkit for Smartclient is LGPL and is free. The serverside framework is not needed if you have a good integrating framework like RSF that provides out of the box JSON provider for Java domain objects.
I figure one can use any other toolkit like DOJO or DHTMLX trees with the same type of integration.
RSF also rendered the HTML shells and other non AJAX page shells using HTML templates quite effectively. No JSP(s) or even the invasive XHTML namespaces of Facelets with custom elemnts. Just some RSF:ID(s) as attributes to a pure XHTMl template with only HTML namespace.
Posting back complex data structures can also be done using JSON posting.
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Message #280357
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Re: Reasonabe Server Faces and Smartclient
Hi Krishna,
Are you related to Ricardo's team or Michael's team or are you yet a third group within your institution? I'd be curious to hear about your experiences with RSF, and whether your project went for the full-blown RIA architecture (zero page reloads) or something in between.
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Message #280380
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Re: SmartGWT is not free for deployment
I am confused with these licensing posts.
Put it simple, is SmartGWT (workable function) free or not? Is it crappy to use SmartLGPL alone?
Why not just use Ext GWT?
Sorry for my poor English.
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Message #280407
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Smartclient and SmartGWT remaining "in sync"
Since SmartGWT is a separate project hosted at Google code, and not maintained/supported by SmartClient (the company), there is a good chance that any updates/patches to the SmartClient javascript libraries will take its time to propagate to SmartGWT.
Is there a commitment, or some kind of a business arrangement with the SmartClient company, on the SmartGWT team to continue supporting future updates to the code?
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Message #280408
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Re: Smartclient and SmartGWT remaining "in sync"
SmartGWT has the full support of SmartClient and any required updates will be picked up immediately. SmartGWT is run under SmartClient's umbrella and users can rest assured that SmartGWT will continue to grow and be supported by them.
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Message #280514
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Re: vs IT Mill Tookit
@Charles Kendrick
it would be better to be familiar with *both* products in order to compare them more clearly :)
I certainly agree with this, and that is why I did not provide a comparison, instead just pointing out what I think is the most significant difference you'll notice when trying both products (aside from the obvious differences in look-and-feel).
I'm not sure if you're saying that my point was incorrect (I don't think so), or if you just think I should not have answered the question without providing an in-depth comparison?
My main point is still that you should really try both - you'll find they are quite different.
My attempt to describe the difference in "integration" was oversimplified, but the server integration _is_ quite different, as you will find if you try both.
I also noticed that your famililarity with IT Mill Toolkit was even more cursory than mine with SmartClient ;-) Let me just briefly clarify your assumptions:
The current "FeatureBrowser" demo, that I'm guessing you tried, presents only a fraction of the features that are actually in the framework - this is something that will be corrected in the upcoming release.
Interactions do not have to make a server roundtrip, and usually don't, but they can if you want them to. The traffic generated is minimal, and only changed data is sent back, without requiring the developer to figure out what to communicate back and forth - this is one strength with this model. It also automatically protects from CSRF and handles other security aspects.
Anyway, try both - you'll find they are different beasts, and one will probably suit you better than the other.
One more clarification about the licensing: am I correct in understanding that the SmartClient Java Server is a commercial offering, and the LGPL applies to the client-side SmartClient only?
(There was certainly some confusing posts in this thread about the licensing, although I would hesitate th call it misinformation - I find licensing gets misunderstood all the time :-\ The page "Licensing options" -page linked seems quite clear, read that good people :-)
Best Regards,
Marc
(Sorry, this turned into a long post in a thread that should really be about SmartGWT - get on the appropriate forum if you want more in-depth!)
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Message #280524
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Re: SmartGWT is not free for deployment
I see two products: SmartClient LGPL and SmartClient Enterprise ($1,195 (internal use) or $1,950 (for small companies)). http://www.smartclient.com/product/licensing.jsp
My question is, is it necessary for SmartGWT to work with SmartClient? Or, SmartGWT is independent from SmartClient?
What's the difference between SmartGWT and SmartClient LGPL?
What's the difference between SmartClient LGPL and SmartClient Enterprise?
BTW, I found Ext GWT also provides commercial license ($289 without limitation). http://extjs.com/store/gxt/
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Message #280525
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SmartGWT is based on SmartClient LGPL, which is free
As the subject says: SmartGWT is based on SmartClient LGPL, hence free for use inside closed-source, commercial applications.
The two licenses you see on the licensing page are for Enterprise editions of SmartClient. As it says right on that page, the enterprise packages add:
All Enterprise Packages provide:
1. SmartClient Java Server, which provides accelerated integration with popular Java technologies, including Java Beans, Spring and Hibernate
2. SmartClient Visual Builder, a drag and drop screen building tool that complements your IDE, providing wizards for databinding, codeless event/action binding, and much more
3. a typical commercial license for those who need a non-LPGL license option
A more in-depth discussion of features and benefits is here:
http://www.smartclient.com/docs/6.5.1/a/b/c/go.html#group..iscServer
Ext GWT also provides commercial licenses, but does not have a free option suitable for typical commercial use (the only free option is a GPL license).
Also, the Ext GWT commercial license only gets you widgets - the part of SmartGWT that corresponds to Ext GWT is free for commercial use (LGPL). The commercial versions of SmartGWT offers additional capabilities that don't exist in Ext GWT.
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Message #280527
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SmartGWT vs. SmartClient LGPL
Thanks for the reply.
What's the difference between SmartGWT and SmartClient?
Can SmartGWT work without SmartClient Server (or other SmartClient xx)?
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Message #280529
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Re: vs IT Mill Tookit
Hi Marc,
I didn't agree with your contrast between "designed with server integration in mind" vs "_is_ integrated with the server". If anything, both statements apply to both products, but trying to draw a distinction between the two statements could easily lead to semantic tail-chasing :)
Every project's demo showcase lags behind the latest features in the product. Even with SmartGWT and it's 250+ samples, there's a vast amount that's not being shown yet. But unless IT Mill has been secretely working on proprietary Ajax UI technology I don't think you're going to see them suddenly reach feature parity with the established Ajax RIA technologies like SmartGWT/SmartClient, Ext, Backbase, etc. There's a multi-year gap there, with features that really matter if you have a high-productivity UI in mind.
Architecturally IT Mill falls in with JSF+Ajax, Zk, and similar approaches: there is a server-side model of the visual components and changes to that model are propagated automatically client<->server. In contrast SmartGWT/SmartClient has no need for a server-side component model, which has scalability benefits (the server is simply doing less) and allows the same UI framework to be used with multiple server platforms (Java, .NET, PHP, etc).
Each architecture has different potential strengths and weaknesses in terms of simplicity. As you correctly point out, you need to evaluate any two solutions in more depth to find out actual weaknesses (or at least, understand what they've been used for in the past!).
What I think we've done with SmartGWT and its DataSource architecture is take the primary complaint leveled against client-oriented architectures like SmartClient - that managing data updates can be complex - and turned it into a major strength. SmartGWT gives you the instant CRUD UI that Rails popularized, but we do it with any server technology, and the UI is a RIA rather than mostly plain HTML.
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Message #280530
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Re: SmartGWT vs. SmartClient LGPL
SmartGWT is a GWT wrapper around SmartClient LGPL. If you use SmartGWT, you build your UI using Java. If you use SmartClient LGPL directly, you build your UI using JavaScript. They both expose the same set of components and capabilities, so which one you use is a matter of existing skills and language preference.
Like SmartClient LGPL, SmartGWT does not require the SmartClient Server and works with any server technology (Java, .NET, PHP, etc).
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Message #280549
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SmartClient demo less responsive than GWT-Ext demo?
Is it just my imagination, or does the SmartClient showcase demo feels slightly more sluggish than the GWT-Ext showcase, or for that matter Ext_GWT demo?
Note that it is not terribly slower than the other too, just enough to get noticed. But then it is just a 1.0 release, and can only get better with time!
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Message #280565
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it loads lots of sample data and examples
Some of the sample data sets are quite large and there's a huge number of samples.
As far as real-world performance, reducing server round-trips is the dominant factor for most enterprise applications, and in that realm, SmartClient's adaptive filtering and sorting, dataset caching and automatic cache updates make a gigantic difference.
As an aside, given the vigorous new race for the JavaScript performance crown, any small differences in performance are on their way to irrelevance - it's all about architectural advantages now.
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Message #280687
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Re: vs IT Mill Tookit
Charles Kendrick,
Some aspects of the architecture are comparable to the approaches you mention, other aspects not so much. I'm not a fan of JSF myself, and there is for instance a study showing that IT Mill Toolkit is much more productive than Icefaces (which is JSF+Ajax).
IT Mill Toolkit is a server-side Java framework, with a Java (gwt) client-side, so the whole "stack" is Java - no JS or XML needed to make an "ajax RIA". The programming model is very 'application like', much more so than for instance JSF/Icefaces. It's not for you if you want to use PHP or .NET, though.
And I'm not criticizing SmartGWT - they are different products, and one should try both if it's unclear which on suits your needs. Without the Java Server, SmartGWT is a client-side framework (in the same way Ext and GWT are), while IT Mill Toolkit is always a server-side framework (though it has a client-side too - yes, the difference is hard to describe perfectly in one sentence, but you all know what I mean:).
In fact, SmartGWT is looking good (good work guys!), and it would be quite possible to use SmartGWT widgets in the client-side of IT Mill Toolkit (or any other GWT widgets, for that matter).
Spambl spambl has apparently already tried IT Mill Toolkit, so I was actually a bit surprised that I got into an argument when trying to say "try both products" ;-)
In the end I think we mostly agree about differences in architecture and core concepts, it sort of seems to be the wordings that we disagree about (I tried to be too concise in my first post) - and we obviously prefer different products, but that's almost beside the point ;-)
Let's say it one more time: if in doubt, try both!
Best Regards,
Marc
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