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Messages: 33
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SAP Asks Sun/Oracle to Let Java Be Free
In a recent blog post raising concerns about the prospect of Oracle managing Java to the detriment of developers worldwide, Sikka noted, “To date, the JCP is heavily dominated by Sun Microsystems which was not always to the benefit of all parties interested in Java… The technical interfaces that are jointly developed by the community should be immune from bias, and the community should be able to work even closer together in the spirit of cooperation to continue the Java success story.”
He suggests that Java be transitioned into an open-bodied model after Eclipse to permit fair competition for compatible implementations. The Java Virtual Machine should be open source. He said its present license terms are “restricted to free software and thus not compatible to the commercial terms required in the global IT marketplace.” .. Apparently SAP is at the heart of this global IT infrastructure “powering more than 65% of the transactions that make up the GDP.”
He said that SAP is committed to making significant investments in engineering and governance “IF” this happens.
Read his full post, complete with pictures of the wall tumbling down here:
http://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/scn/weblogs?blog=/pub/wlg/16648
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Message #329172
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Firefox unfriendly?
That link shows an empty page in FireFox 3.5.5 and no IE available here.
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Message #329177
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Open source without stewardship is the end
Pure open source will just lead to all sorts of specific derivatives and would imho kill Java. A form of stewardship, be it from a company like IBM or Oracle or a group of companies.
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Message #329181
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Pure open source will just lead to all sorts of specific derivatives and would imho kill Java. A form of stewardship, be it from a company like IBM or Oracle or a group of companies.
Couldn't agree more. Leaving a mainstream language like Java in the hands of open source people will make Java a test bed for all kinds of desired features in a language, and it will be end of Java. BTW I had the first hand experience of participating in JCP and I never felt once that the SUN is the only company running the show. As a matter of fact I had found SUN very accepting towards new changes coming from community when ever it makes sense. I give them all the credits because they have kept a very balance approach towards openness and insanity since so many years.
In my personal opinion if for some reason community desire a really open Java, it should be based on some thing like Python or Ruby model where the language creators (Guido, Yukihiro )have the final say about a specific feature of a language.
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Message #329185
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Rashid,
I agree with you 100%. I have the same reservations around going too far off from the JCP model too quickly.
Cheers,
Reza
------------------------------------------------------------
Independent Member, Java EE 6 and EJB 3.1 Expert Groups
Author, EJB 3 in Action
Resin EJB 3.1 Lite Container Implementer
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Message #329188
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Re: SAP Asks Sun/Oracle to Let Java Be Free
Rather than demanding that Sun/Oracle throw the baby out with the bathwater and leave Java without strong stewardship, SAP should note what specifically they want Sun to change about SE/EE. For instance, they might well demand a time table for closure support.
To simply say, "throw it up for grabs" is not really constructive, however. This reeks of the same sort of obnoxious PR move that IBM did for a while trying to claim that Sun was not supportive of open source, while being quite closed and proprietary themselves with very few exceptions (e.g. Eclipse). [Note IBM has still not open sourced J9...]
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Message #329189
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Look who is asking open source software
SAP should shut up since they have most proprietor software in IT. One should look into their own turf before asking arch competitor to give something for FREE to them or community (oh which community in particular mention it pl.)
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Message #329191
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
I agree with you 100%. I have the same reservations around going too far off from the JCP model too quickly.
Wake up and smell the coffee! Java is already stagnating at the record speed. JCP simply doesn't work.
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Message #329192
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Re: Look who is asking open source software
SAP should shut up since they have most proprietor software in IT. One should look into their own turf before asking arch competitor to give something for FREE to them or community (oh which community in particular mention it pl.)
For what it's worth, they did create Memory Analyzer and open source it http://www.eclipse.org/mat/
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Message #329193
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Re: SAP Asks Sun/Oracle to Let Java Be Free - An emphatic No!!!
An emphatic NO!!! Where there is no leadership, the people perish, as every man starts doing what he thinks is right in his own eyes. By extension, Java like everything else needs leadership/stewardship. Sun has done an outstanding job at this from where I sit.
For a piece of technology that is not out rightly open source, it sure feels like it to me. Plus, the development cycles for the different versions of the language/JDKs seem quite rapid yet, controlled. Don't also forget the immensely vast open source communities and technologies that are out there to compliment the work the JCP and Sun have been doing.
Don't get me wrong, I too fear that the Oracle takeover of Sun and by extension Java seems a very scary prospect, given the differing views/cultures of both organizations. But I fear the open source route may be even far scarier.
I would hazard a guess that most really successful open source projects out there today have the financial and technological backing of some well established corporate entity/entities.
@Reza Rahman
Hi Reza, I'm a fan of yours. Are you doing any work with Manning to get EJB 3.1 in Action out anytime in the near future?
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Message #329194
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
I agree with you 100%. I have the same reservations around going too far off from the JCP model too quickly.
Wake up and smell the coffee! Java is already stagnating at the record speed. JCP simply doesn't work.
Personally, I think Java should stagnate. There are diminishing returns for new features. Java should become a stable lingua franca for the VM. A few more features that help it fulfill that goal are all that should be added.
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Message #329197
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Rashid, I also fully agree with you. Things must be as free as possible, but not more than that. This means some form of leadership is absolutely needed.
Look at what happens in the 'free market'. In order to be truly free, there must be some government that ensures everybody sticks to the rules and freedom does not deteriorate to anarchy. Of course no government should act like a dictator, but it definitely has a role to play. I for one wouldn't want to be in a lawless system without any form of central government and I think few people actually would.
Therefor it's silly to demand the kind of total freedom for Java.
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Message #329206
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Sun is big loser ...they always create software which good in textbook overly complex and stupid ......look at crappy EJB 2 (also java mail , swing, jsf)....giving bad name to java ...thats why developer started exploring options other than java in firt place if opensource projects like spring , hibernate etc were no there they it would be still be as crappy it was before ....Better would t take control of java totally out sun /oracle hand and give it to apache harmony project and Ban JCP,TCK ....we dont need you SUN you can go burry your self behind eclipse and IBM
And those who say opensource == no leadership , look PHP , python , perl are they controlled by some lame ass corporation
they are doing well .....they would probably extend same logic to microsoft .....
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Message #329214
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Re: SAP Asks Sun/Oracle to Let Java Be Free - An emphatic No!!!
Indeed, the Eclipse Memory Analyzer was a huge step forward for SAP in this regard. There were patents donated and
if SAP would have gone the proprietary way,commercial offers such as Yourkit would have had a very hard time. Now they are building those key features in their products as well.
.NET is far behind regarding memory analysis.
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Message #329216
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SAP has something to offer
Sap has something to offer. Sap has it's own "variation" of Sun's HotSpot VM, the SAP JVM, with features such as on demand debugging, low overhead profiling and other improvements.
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Message #329270
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Re: SAP Asks Sun/Oracle to Let Java Be Free - An emphatic No!!!
Hi Reza, I'm a fan of yours. Are you doing any work with Manning to get EJB 3.1 in Action out anytime in the near future?
Douglas,
Thanks so much for the kind words. It's always good to connect with readers, friends, well-wishers and fellow developers out there. I am indeed trying to make time for a second edition of EJB 3 in Action - it's a little tough with my current work to help make Resin Java EE 6 certified as well as thinking about how to better integrate Spring and Java EE 6...
Cheers,
Reza
------------------------------------------------------------
Independent Member, Java EE 6 and EJB 3.1 Expert Groups
Author, EJB 3 in Action
Resin EJB 3.1 Lite Container Implementer
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Message #329271
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Wake up and smell the coffee! Java is already stagnating at the record speed. JCP simply doesn't work.
Alex,
You are of course entitled to your opinions. As I see it however, I think some stability is essential for something as pervasive, foundational, well-supported and standards based as Java. That's the critical distinction from a green-field open source project perspective that you might be coming from.
As to the effectiveness of the JCP, can you kindly site some specific examples? As I see it, the JCP is very good at assimilating best-of-breed ideas/minds, correcting past mistakes without prejudice and serving as an effective/open collaboration mechanism for a very wide variety of people and organizations. I can't say the same for very many other things in the IT industry...
Cheers,
Reza
P.S.: Similar to some other folks here, the SAP move does seem cynical/hypocritical more than it seems driven by a genuine concern for developers.
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Message #329279
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Re: Java should stagnate
Personally, I think Java should stagnate. There are diminishing returns for new features. Java should become a stable lingua franca for the VM. A few more features that help it fulfill that goal are all that should be added.
Insightful comment. I agree. Now that Spring is gone Java has a good chance to become an almost hype-free zone.
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Message #329287
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Re: SAP Asks Sun/Oracle to Let Java Be Free
Dear SAP.
Would you like let your ERP be free, and make it be independent?
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Message #329290
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Do ASF, Eclipse Foundation, etc. do a bad job?
Disclosure: I work for a compliant Java SE JVM vendor genuinely interested in obtaining Java and JCK under a business-friendly open source license.
Leaving a mainstream language like Java in the hands of open source people will make Java a test bed for all kinds of desired features in a language, and it will be end of Java.
Having no test bed to try new stuff is worse, don't you think?
And would not you agree that open source organizations such as the Apache Software Foundation, the Eclipse Foundation, etc., do a reasonably good job of controlling our industry's key open source assets, while making them available under business-friendly open source licenses?
Backward compatibility is a superpower when you deal with a 15-years old de facto industry standard. Anyone can take e.g. Apache Tomcat, add this and that feature, and release under a commercial license. But if their solution does not work as the Tomcat books say it should work, they are doomed.
That is why SpringSource says its tc Server is "The Tomcat You Know, The Enterprise Capabilities You Need"
That is why Mulesoft says its Tcat Server is "Built on 100% Tomcat, with no changes to the core code."
Java will be perfectly safe in the open source simply because the industry depends on it.
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Message #329298
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Re: Do ASF, Eclipse Foundation, etc. do a bad job?
Backward compatibility is a superpower when you deal with a 15-years old de facto industry standard.
....
Java will be perfectly safe in the open source simply because the industry depends on it.
Just like Harmony is so harmonious with Sun's JDK today?
Yes, you can blame this on lack of tests, but IBM's J9 has many of the same issues and they license the tests. And still both Harmony and J9 survive and are used -- and heavily erode any notion of write-once-run-anywhere.
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Message #329308
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Re: Do ASF, Eclipse Foundation, etc. do a bad job?
Java is the root from which springs the different branches of derivative open source technologies.
"Root" is an important concept in computer science and in nature. Usually messing with the root in any misguided way can cause problems throughout the system that the root acts as the anchor or main point of reference.
Don't mess with the root!
Tomcat and tcServer, etc. only appear to be root technologies but they are not. They are just one of the derivative branches.
I agree with Hantsy Bai. SAP should set their ERP free and lead by example.
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Message #329319
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Any SAP role as a Euro player?
The only obstacle of late to the Oracle-Sun merger seems to come from Europe. If a big "European" company were satisfied with the deal, [mmm, like SAP] would that have any influence on that outcome?
Don't really want to get in GeoPoliticks...but maybe someone would have a thought on that angle...
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Message #329327
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Personally, I think Java should stagnate. There are diminishing returns for new features.
Stable == dead. It's that simple.
There's no diminishing returns from the features which are being added to C#, more likely a synergy.
Also, world is quickly moving towards massively-parallel systems. Microsoft is already preparing for it in production systems (with PLINQ, for example). They are also active in areas like STM (Software Transactional Memory).
And Java has...? What? Nothing?
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Message #329330
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Alex,
You are of course entitled to your opinions. As I see it however, I think some stability is essential for something as pervasive, foundational, well-supported and standards based as Java.
Of course, stability is important. However, with Java it becomes more like rigidity.
Right now I'm seeing customers switching from Java to .NET. Because .NET has a great GUI framework (WPF), great number of libraries and language better than Java.
There's literally no advantage of starting a project in Java vs. C# right now, except for cross-platform requirements. None.
As to the effectiveness of the JCP, can you kindly site some specific examples?
Look at JCACHE JSR for an example.
Or look at how poorly generics were handled, compared to .NET.
As I see it, the JCP is very good at assimilating best-of-breed ideas/minds, correcting past mistakes without prejudice and serving as an effective/open collaboration mechanism for a very wide variety of people and organizations.
Maybe that's why JSR-based specs are known to be immediately extended with vendor-specific extensions?
I can't say the same for very many other things in the IT industry...
Cheers,
Reza
P.S.: Similar to some other folks here, the SAP move does seem cynical/hypocritical more than it seems driven by a genuine concern for developers.
I understand SAP. They bet their future on Java and it's slowly dying.
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Message #329332
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Personally, I think Java should stagnate. There are diminishing returns for new features.
Stable == dead.
C would like a word with you.
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Message #329334
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Personally, I think Java should stagnate. There are diminishing returns for new features.
Stable == dead. It's that simple.
There's no diminishing returns from the features which are being added to C#, more likely a synergy.
Also, world is quickly moving towards massively-parallel systems. Microsoft is already preparing for it in production systems (with PLINQ, for example). They are also active in areas like STM (Software Transactional Memory).
And Java has...? What? Nothing?
C# was developed with after java and benefited from that. The two are in different parts of their cycles. At this point, we really need to be looking at a 'new Java'. It doesn't necessarily need to be named Java.
Effectively LINQ is a collection of languages that are being 'mixed' into VB and C#. I'm not convinced that this is even a good idea. I do agree that the Java stack needs to keep up with this. I don't think that the Java language is the place to do this, however.
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Message #329335
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
There's literally no advantage of starting a project in Java vs. C# right now, except for cross-platform requirements.
Where I work all our platforms and tools (there are many) support Java. .NET isn't even an option.
IMHO, the language you choose in the future will not be bound to the underlying VM. The native language of that VM will only be as good as how well it integrates with other languages. And the limitations of that language in this area will limit the VM's appeal. Changes to Java should be focused on this and not on top-level, one-off features.
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Message #329342
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Didn't understand
Is SAP asking to change GPL style license of Open JDK, or just change JCP members?
Should someone else be able to commercialise JDK (MSFT like companies) paving way to backfiring on opensource?
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Message #329397
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I wish Java can offers more to compete upcomming .NET release
I agree with you, Alex.
Each release of .NET framework version brought lots enhancements on its framework, C# language, and other libraries like WPF, WCF, WWF, WIF. The .NET communities like Pattern & Practice, Codeplex, Castle project, boost additional steroids in .NET world.
If only Sun has strong willingness to improve Java language, its core frameworks more seriously, Java may have something to compete seriously in the current & upcomming times.
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Message #329663
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Re: Open source without stewardship is the end
Personally, I think Java should stagnate. There are diminishing returns for new features.
Stable == dead. It's that simple.
There's no diminishing returns from the features which are being added to C#, more likely a synergy.
Also, world is quickly moving towards massively-parallel systems. Microsoft is already preparing for it in production systems (with PLINQ, for example). They are also active in areas like STM (Software Transactional Memory).
And Java has...? What? Nothing?
Scala?
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Message #329666
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Speaking of positions
SAP should shut up since they have most proprietor software in IT. One should look into their own turf before asking arch competitor to give something for FREE to them or community (oh which community in particular mention it pl.)
Another "for what it's worth", if you read the blog in OP, there is the following excerpt cited:
"It is the sense of the Executive Committee that the JCP become an open independent vendor-neutral Standards Organization where all members participate on a level playing field ..."
JCP EC meeting summary - December 7th 2007, Resolution 1 (proposed by Oracle, seconded by BEA)
IMO speaking of hypocracy, I don't think here SAP asks Oracle for something more than to "Walk the talk" upon their former believes and position, plus that SAP is offering to support, contribute and participate in such transformation.
Some people above noted that strong stewrdship might be beneficial, I personally wouldn't disagree to that, but IMO any such stewerdship should not be controlled legally by single company.
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