I think you are missing the point. If you were asked to build a rocket capable of reaching escape velocity with only common common eating utensils (e.g. forks, spoons, chopsticks) as tools, what are your chances of...]]> Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:19:23 -0500 Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:19:23 -0500 Wed, 10 Jan 2007 09:19:23 -0500 Jan 10, 2007 James Watson 0 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765 I think you are missing the point. If you were asked to build a rocket capable of reaching escape velocity with only common common eating utensils (e.g. forks, spoons, chopsticks) as tools, what are your chances of success?

We need to get our head out of the code!

By which I mean we should spend more time at the 10000ft view in respect of not just tools but architecture and other considerations beyond just getting our hands dirty in the...]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:42:47 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:42:47 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 15:42:47 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 Constance Eustace 0 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765

OK now we are on the same page. What I see in most places is that a deadline is set and then the estimate is made to fit that deadline. I guess that's really a process problem but it's outside of the technical aspect of system...]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:44:06 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:44:06 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:44:06 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 James Watson 0 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765 Go take a look at the Groovy thread posted a few days back. I think it is moving towards being a hybrid language, where static analysis and optimization are performed where static structures are available but the developer is free to use...]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:20:57 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:20:57 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:20:57 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 James Watson 0 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765 OK now we are on the same page. What I see in most places is that a deadline is set and then the estimate is made to fit that deadline. I guess that's really a process problem but it's outside of the technical aspect of system development...]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:28:24 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:28:24 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:28:24 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 Erik Engbrecht 1 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765 Closures and function pointers are not restricted to dynamic languages. They can be staticly typechecked. But your point about dynamic languages doing well at code efficiency is exactly right on. That's why I think using dynamic languages in...]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:22:15 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:22:15 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:22:15 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 Erik Engbrecht 1 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765 *semi-technical manager - a manager that used to code but was moved into management to limit the damage they were causing.

...]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:39:28 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:39:28 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:39:28 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 Andrei Panamarou 0 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765 *semi-technical manager - a manager that used to code but was moved into management to limit the damage they were causing.

I agree that we should be looking at the system from a higher level but a higher-level language helps a lot with this. I'm not saying you can't take high-level design and convert it into low-level code. But bridging the gap...]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:36:50 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:36:50 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:36:50 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 James Watson 4 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765 I'm still more convinced that there are issues at the process level:

1. There must be different roles and responsibilities in the team. Borderlines between roles may be somewhat fuzzy, but the leading role must be clearly defined....]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:15:44 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:15:44 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:15:44 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 James Watson 2 http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=43765 From there would come an understanding of the need for process, to coordinate these separate and important tasks, and the realisation that (pure) coding itself is the least important part of development. All this, of course, is within an...]]> Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:31:38 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:31:38 -0500 Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:31:38 -0500 Jan 9, 2007 Jess Holle 1