Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead

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  1. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead (24 messages)

    • Posted by: Nate Borg
    • Posted on: November 06 2002 12:45 EST
    A new Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, the reference-implementation lead for JSTL and author of the book "JSTL in Action", has been posted. In this interview, Shawn talks about the problems JSTL solves, and its interesting features. He looks at how JSTL fits into an enterprise architecture, and discusses the relationship between JSTL, the Apache Group and Sun.

    Watch Shawn Bayern's Interview Here
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    Threaded Messages (24)

  2. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    JSTL is a good first step towards providing the required tools that will make web application development in JSP as easy as it is in ASP.net. But there still is a long way to go.

    JSF may provide that final piece that will equal ASP.net, hopefully those involved will look around at what others are doing and improve on it.


    Stef
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  3. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Speed is critical here. Look at the list of the JSR participants. They do have money and resources. Only internal arguing and , maybe, lack of firm leadership cause such delay. It was anonced somewhere in 2000 and now it is only drafts and limited set of components. For example Struts was started in 1999 and now already in second "production-level" year. Net will be 1.1 next year.

    In my dreams, I would make Oracle, Apache, Ibm, BEA, and many excellent individual and groups put combine (!) effords (and money!) under focused (!) management to give normal front-end and corresponding IDE to java.

    (something like eclipse+struts+webworks+bc4j....?)

    AlexV.
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  4. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    ...sorry, it was about JFS-JSR...

    JSTL is more focused and better
    implemnted.

    AlexV.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  5. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    JSTL looks good and is quite easy to use.

    We are using Struts Framework for Web Application development . Do you think it makes sense to mix the usage of Struts tags (Html ) and JSTL tags(logic and others)

    Bachan
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  6. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    We are using JSTL and Struts together and are very pleased with the results. We have implemented a html forms taglibrary that uses JSTL EE syntax, and that makes the fit even nicer though.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  7. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Yes, it does make sense to combine Struts with the JSTL.

    In fact, if you download the Struts nightly build, there is a new contrib library called "Struts-EL". This is a version of the Struts tag library where the attributes are evaluated with the JSTL EL instead of runtime scriptlets. This makes for a very powerful combination.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  8. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    If you're looking for a proven, easy, and comprehensive way to build web applications on top of J2EE, check out ColdFusion. CFMX for J2EE is a tag-based rapid application development server scripting environment that supports JRun, WebSphere and SunOne deployments.

    http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/j2ee/
    Reply to this Reply to original

  9. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Dan Murphy is the senior product marketing manager for Macromedia, as reported in http://www.internetweek.com/webDev/INW20020513S0003

    Dan, could you keep your offtopic spam in advertisements and out of open forums the community uses for actual discussions?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  10. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Though Dan may work for Macromedia, the ColdFusion technology is an astonishingly close match for JSTL, so I would suggest that his input is actually on topic. Throughout most of the interview, you could actually replace instances of JSTL with CFML (the ColdFusion Markup Language), and the interview would still work.

    Macromedia has an interesting dichotomy. ColdFusion preceeds mainstream Java and has pushed a tag-based architecture since day one. Yet it gets a raised nose from the Java community at large. Still, with Struts and JSTL, Java developers certainly understand and appreciate the value of tags for rapid application development.

    Indeed many of the Macromedia engineers are on the expert groups for the JSP and JSTL specification. I can imagine that they are especially influencial as it relates to JSP custom tags. Note that JRun 3 actually included a library of JSP custom tags that offered similar JSTL functionality, before JSTL was even an idea.

    Macromedia tends to get a bad rap from Java developers at large, but it's hard to mention tags in a J2EE sense, and not mention Macromedia's efforts.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  11. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    I also think its on topic - and I even think its ok to post a product plug here and there. It would just be nice if the poster identified himself
    Reply to this Reply to original

  12. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    right on
    Reply to this Reply to original

  13. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    web application development in JSP as easy as it is in >ASP.net. But there still is a long way to go.

    maybe it is not so long already :) See for example Coldtags:
    www.servletsuite.com/jsp.htm with ASP.NET similar tags.

    >JSF may provide that final piece that will equal ASP.net, >hopefully those involved will look around at what others >are doing and improve on it.
    "equal ASP.net" could not be done without IDE. Visual Studio
    is a big part of ASP.net power
    Reply to this Reply to original

  14. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    I think JSTL will be a part of JSP specification soon. The current JSP spec already includes EL(Expression Language) which is the core of JSTL. Also i can see in future Struts may include JSTL and deprecate some of the existing struts taglib's.

    Cheers
    Zulfi
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  15. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    By "current JSP spec", you're referring to the 2.0 draft, right?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  16. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Kenny:

    You are right, i am referring to the proposed final draft version.

    Cheers
    Zulfi
    Reply to this Reply to original

  17. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    The current JSP spec already includes EL(Expression

    > Language) which is the core of JSTL

    Isnt it really so that JSTL already includes EL which is really a part of the JSP 2.0 spec....
    Reply to this Reply to original

  18. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Johan:

    Yes, i think so. If i am not wrong, EL was a part of JSTL first and later included in the JSP Spec.

    Cheers
    Zulfi
    Reply to this Reply to original

  19. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Aren't they slightly different versions though, with a view to updating JSTL to use the JSP 2.0 EL in the future?

    Simon
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  20. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    I thought it was the other way around - the JSTL EL is being used in JSP 2.0.

    I just watched the tech talk interview with Shawn, and he mentioned something about JSP 1.3, which is news to me, and that JSTL + EL would be part of it.

    Anyone heard anything more concrete about this?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  21. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Hehe. My interview was actually conducted a few months back. JSP 1.3 was the original name of JSP 2.0; we hadn't renamed it yet. So there's nothing interesting there.

    And in the interview, I said only that the EL would be part of JSP 2.0. JSTL itself is a parallel standard; it's separate from JSP the way that JSP is separate from the Servlet API. That is, all are standards in their own right.
    (JSTL's separate nature gives it a little more flexibility to evolve in its early days; it's likely to be incorporated into the J2EE umbrella in the future.)

    --Shawn
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  22. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    So are the two EL's (JSP 2.0 and JSTL) one and the same?
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  23. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    Yes, it is..

    In the JSP spec(proposed final draft 2.0) they mention the following.

    "Adding an API for invoking the EL. This API will likely be used in the implementation of the EL in JSP 1.3 and JSTL but we expect it to also be used in other technologies like JavaServer Faces."

    Cheers
    Syed
    Reply to this Reply to original

  24. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    The ELs are very similar. JSP 2.0 introduces EL functions, and of course it allows the EL in template text (whereas in JSTL, it can only be used in the attributes of JSTL tags). Those are the only significant changes.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  25. Hard Core Tech Talk with Shawn Bayern, JSTL Ref. Impl. Lead[ Go to top ]

    We use struts but didn't use the taglibs as they didn't show up well for the graphics people developing the html. A long time has passed since this and I guess that the editors support taglibs and struts better, what are the groups experienecs with taglibs and struts with tools such as Dreamweaver
    Reply to this Reply to original