Sun considering Eclipse support


News: Sun considering Eclipse support

  1. Sun considering Eclipse support (44 messages)

    eWeek magazine interviewed Rich Green, VP of Developer Tools and Java at Sun in an article that appears this week regarding a possible merge between Eclipse and NetBeans. The article is very speculative and tentative but it seems clear that Sun is open to anything in its quest to achieve 10 million Java developers - a goal Jonathan Schwartz, Executive VP of Software at Sun, stated at the Java One conference.

    The eWeek article is at:,3959,1236132,00.asp.

    From my perspective, the idea of an alliance between Eclipse and NetBeans makes sense because neither platform delivers everything a software developer needs. Perhaps with the combined effort of the volunteer engineers working to improve both IDEs then the development community would be better served.

    While that would be good for the existing Eclipse and NetBeans user communities, I don't see how this will increase the overall size of the Java development community. For example, neither Eclipse nor NetBeans has the necessary functionality and easy-to-use to attract Visual Basic users. Microsoft's biggest obsticle to .NET adoption is the leap VB develops must make from script-level programming to objects. Visual Studio .NET makes object oriented development easier for VB developers through on-screen Wizards and an elegant what-you-see-is-what-you-get graphical interface. These are missing from the clunky interfaces of Eclipse and NetBeans. (Borland JBuilder and BEA WebLogic Workshop offer such functions and ease-of-use but require big license fees and application server platform adoption.)

    Additionally, neither Eclipse nor NetBeans do anything really special to support application development on J2EE. Wouldn't it be great to be able to build and deploy a J2EE application solely by using the mouse? When Eclipse and NetBeans offer that kind of ease-of-use then 10 million Java developers seems much closer at hand.

    -Frank Cohen

    Threaded Messages (44)

  2. not clunky[ Go to top ]

    I don't find netbeans clunky at all. It may not be the right IDE for VB programmers, but it's a great java IDE. I tried both Netbeans and Eclipse and I prefer Netbeans, largely because it doesn't force the "project" metaphor as much as Eclipse.
  3. Clunky, chunky, verblunky[ Go to top ]

    I wrote the "clunky" thing when I reflected back on building a performance kit that shows Java developers how to build and test Web Services for performance on a variety of platforms. When it came time to build the kit on WebSphere I downloaded WebSphere Application Developer, based on Eclipse. The New Web Service wizard feature required me to go through about 15 steps to get the Web Service built and deployed. Along the way I had to click on check-boxes that said things like "Don't ask when overwriting files" with little explanation. I'm advocating for a better user interface that offers an intuitive way to build J2EE and Web Service applications.

    In my view, NetBeans and Eclipse need UI design reviews to make them more approachable and usable by Java developers.

    -Frank Cohen

    P.S. - The Performance Kits are available for free download at
  4. Clunky, chunky, verblunky[ Go to top ]


    While WSAD ( WebSphere Application Developer ) is based on Eclipse it would be a big mistake to confuse it with Eclipse.
    WSAD adds a lot off clunkines sthat doesn't exist with Eclipse and makes developers do a bunch of GUI based wizard steps that actually reduce comprehension of what is going on in the underlying J2EE framework.

    We have moved away from WSAD to an Eclipse-xDoclet-JBoss environment for development and we deploy on WebSphere. Our productivity has gone up considerably after we bypassed the WSAD wizards and replaced them with xDoclet based EJB code generation.

    Our resource consumption has gone down considerably as well, the WSAD environment would grab half of available RAM and the embedded WebSphere would grab the other half, in the default IDE config settings. This caused a lot of swapping whne any other apps were run.

    Eclipese by itself is much more lean and mean so WSAD is not a good representative of what Eclipse does in terms of ease of use, performance etc.

    Having said that I have use NetBeans and ForteEE and find them to be far easier to use simply because unlike Eclipse they don't force a strange "project" metaphor on top of CVS.

    I have found developers new to CVS ( some coming from Perforce ) on our project, get thoroughly confused about Eclipse's "interpretation' of CVS.
    They show no confusion when accessing CVS through a third party tool like WinCVS.

    Overall Eclipse has the momentum and the faster UI toolkit. If NetBeans is to be unified with Eclipse I hope it moves Eclipse out of the starnge "project" world.

    Nitin Borwankar.
  5. Netbeans clunky[ Go to top ]

    I switched from JBuilder to NetBeans and was really pleased with the functionality (and my manager was doubly pleased not to renew our JBuilder licenses).

    As I used it more and more, I found that it was sluggish to use (felt like a traditional swing app), but it had more features than JBuilder so I stuck with it.

    When eclipse 2.2 came out I gave it a whack and fell in love with development tools all over again. The thing I never liked about Netbeans is that I felt like I was using a Swing demo, while Eclipse is much snappier with a cleaner look and feel. Now, if you're going to say "But look and feel doesn't matter," then go back to {emacs | vi | ed | edlin | notepad | wordpad | {your favorite text editor here}} and be happy with it.

    Eclipse is a great step forward for Java IDEs. It raises the bar for the IDE vendors and forces them to step up the innovation if they expect customers to shell out good money for their tools.
  6. Eclipse/SWT is sluggish on Linux[ Go to top ]

    Eclipse is very impressive on Win32. Its my favourite IDE at the moment. But I was very disappointed when I tried it out on my linux box. The SWT seems to be very sluggish on Linux (Redhat 9.0) - you can actually watch it redrawing the screen if you maximise a Text Editor. This is very annoying - I'm using a 1GB 2600 Athlon and I can watch it redrawing the screen!

    On the other hand, I was very surprised when I then tried out IDEA IntelliJ (which is swing based) on the linux box. Its one of the snappiest IDEs I've every used. I use VS.NET at work every day and it often gets "Stuck" - just freezed for a number of seconds with no UI response. IntelliJ is superb. It proves that Swing on Linux would appear to be even smoother than native apps - don't ask me to explain how but it really seems to be the case.

    I think the days of Swing apps being sluggish are behind us. Swing has come a long way. Espcially since JVM 1.4 now utilises the uderlying graphics hardware much better.

    My problem with Eclipse is that becuase it uses SWT which isn't really platform independent - there is a number of plugins for it which only work with Win32. This sucks. It has also crashed a number of times on Linux - SWT exceptions.

    SWT acheieved what AWT failed to achieve but its really too late. I hope they migrate Eclipse over to Swing - though I know this will probably never happen. If it did, we would have the best of both worlds - a great plugin architecture with great performance and usability across platforms.
  7. I have just installed Eclipse 2.1 on my Red Hat Linux 9.0 Box. This version of Ecslipe is the gtk one and runs on any gnome desktop.
    However I did not find any draw-redraw problems when maximizing or resizing windows. I have 512 mb of SdRam with a on board vram of 4mb which runs over an Pentium-III 500Mhz processor.
    In fact I was pleasently suprised to see the entire gui mesh very well with Red Hat's new BlueCurve Look.
    Just for fun I also ran Netbeans 3.5 on the same box and made it use Gnome Look and Feel(-ui switch) introduced in jdk1.4.2. Jesus Christ it really looked like an naitve app!!

    With Look and Feels becoming better and more processing speed avaialabe the it really seems like the ui responsiveness of native apps(SWT) and non native (Swing) are becoming similar.
  8. Eclipse is very impressive on Win32. Its my favourite IDE at the moment.

    >But I was very disappointed when I tried it out on my linux box.

    Have you tried IntelliJ IDEA ?

    I works very great both on Linux and Windows. It uses SWING but it has no performance problems even on my Athlon 700. Yes, you are right - since jdk 1.4.1 SWING works very well and I think that Eclipse should be migrated to SWING.

    My RedHat 9.0, IDEA and NETBeans screenshots

    Maris Orbidans
  9. SWT vs Swing performance ?[ Go to top ]

    Has Swing performace in JDK 1.4.x caught up with SWT ?

    Some of the posts seem to to indicate that Eclipse and Netbeans (on JDK 1.4) are equally snappy . Is that so ?

    Disclaimer : I am still using Visual SlickEdit thugh I am often tempted by Eclipse / Netbeans.
  10. Cleartype fonts[ Go to top ]

    Well, with Windows XP on my laptop,
    Eclipse widgets make use of Cleartype fonts,
    which Swing can't at all!

    I *LOVE* my cleartype fonts! When is swing going to support them???
  11. Cleartype fonts[ Go to top ]

    I *LOVE* my cleartype fonts! When is swing going to support them???
    I am VERY glad to hear from someone who feels the same way I do! :)
  12. Cleartype fonts[ Go to top ]

    Its interesting to deliberate of IDEs, we all have our opinions on which one suits our needs best and we should choose our tools based on those needs. Isn't that the beauty of Java, with a generic compile build process you can use whatever you're most comfortable with.

    I've used Netbeans and to be honest I thought it was rubbish, that should not really matter to anyone who actually thinks its a good application.

    IntelliJ would be without doubt my favourite IDE of all time, even might I say replacing my beloved Kawa a tool Allaire shame fully killed off.Unfortunately I think the Java community is littered with nearly tools, JBuillder started off quite easily but turned into a beast, Symantec Cafe/Webgain went the same way.

    At the moment my company is evaluating Eclipse and IntelliJ and to be honest whilst I have my preferences, Eclipse is an alright tool. Not the best, but a long shot from the worst.

    I think the SWT is a little slower on Linux, and on the issue of cross platform compatibility. Well if you support Java 1.4 features you'll soon see that you app is not cross platform anymore, as in for those platforms still without 1.4 support. Besides whos going to move from Linux, to BeOS or BSD or QNX.
  13. Eclipse/SWT is sluggish on Linux[ Go to top ]

    The SWT seems to be very sluggish on Linux (Redhat 9.0).... My problem with

    > Eclipse is that becuase it uses SWT which isn't really platform independent -
    > there is a number of plugins for it which only work with Win32. This sucks. It
    > has also crashed a number of times on Linux - SWT exceptions.
    This is strange. Have you installed the latest JRE? I believe that the previous versions of the JRE (even 1.4), don't work well on Redhat 9.0 because it introduces a new threading model. That could be the cause of your problems.

    As for the plugins, I've only come across one plugin that was platform dependent (i.e. subclipse). For the most part, plugin developers have stuck Java and the portable SWT interface. (Note by portable, I mean, the interface is the same wherever Eclipse is ported.). If you find a plugin that's not portable, leave a polite note with the plugin writers, urging them to be more portable.

    Sometimes a platform specific solution can't be helped (in the case of subclipse, I believe it needs access to the subversion libraries), but even in this case, at the very minimum, it should be possible for them to provide the source code for the native methods their plugin uses so that you can compile for your platform.
  14. Netbeans clunky[ Go to top ]

    Finally Sun opened their eyes to the best and open source IDE for java
  15. Netbeans clunky[ Go to top ]

    I switched from JBuilder to NetBeans and was really pleased with the functionality (and my manager was doubly pleased not to renew our JBuilder licenses).

    If you switched from older versions of JBuilder to newer version of NetBeans sure it will have more functionality as Java IDE's evolved a lot during past couple of years. Literaly all market researches found that JBuilder is the most selling comertial Java IDE and JBuilder wins in most of the web polls (in Java World, for example).
    Personally, I also find that JBuilder is still the best overall Java IDE (comparing the newest versions). Although, one of the things I lack in JBuilder is code folding (particulary JavaDoc comments folding).

  16. JavaWorld Best IDE[ Go to top ]

    JavaWorld? If you mean the Editors' Choice awards, I think you'll find IntelliJ was the winner.
  17. JavaWorld Best IDE[ Go to top ]

    I meant Reader's Choice for 2003

  18. JavaWorld Best IDE[ Go to top ]

    Isn't that JDJ? I don't think JavaWorld has a Reader's Choice...
  19. JavaWorld Best IDE[ Go to top ]

    You are right, sorry for the misstake.
  20. JavaWorld Best IDE[ Go to top ]

    Yeah, IntelliJ rocks.
  21. NetBeans and Eclipse[ Go to top ]

    I agree that Eclipse runs very well under Windows. But try to install the GTK version of Eclipse in older Linux (like SuSe 6.x or 8.0). It is like a hell. Very complicated because you have to upgrade many things. You surely can install the Motif version of Eclipse but it looks horrible. You can install NetBeans easily both in Win and Linux and with JDK 1.4.2 it is very fast!

    Eclipse 2.x is also useless if you want to have your build management and execution management under Ant because Eclipse can only start !one! process for Ant. So, how can you start your business layer and presentation layer seperately with Ant? No chance. In NetBeans you can start as many Ant processes as you like.

    I also prefer NetBeans because of its "mounting" system. Very easy to use, especially for beginners. To teach programming in Java for our students, NetBeans is a very good choice. Anyway the "plug-ins" idea is just very old. You can already write plug-ins for NetBeans since a long time ago, nothing special.

    What I like in Eclipse is the sourcecode editor. I hope NetBeans will extend the capability of its sourcecode editor.

  22. Eclipse 2.x is also useless if you want to have your build management and

    >> execution management under Ant because Eclipse can only start !one! process for
    >> Ant. So, how can you start your business layer and presentation layer
    >> seperately with Ant? No chance. In NetBeans you can start as many Ant processes
    >> as you like.

    OUCH!! That's gotta hurt!
    This supports my general feeling about the differences between Eclipse and NetBeans whenever I hear the debate. The majority of those in the Eclipse kamp don't sound like they are really pushing the limits, pretty straight forward java programming with a nice helping hand from the IDE. I guess this is also why Eclipse wins people quickly during 'the demo'. But I have found time and time again (with not just Eclipse) that the other IDEs simply don't have the flexibility and power-user ability that NetBeans has. Anything and everything can be customised to suit the most unusual environments. This unfortunately leads to comments "NetBeans' options are too complicated, or cluttered". Well if your playing with lego I guess dad's toolshed doesn't look too user-friendly ;)
    The above Ant usage is but one example, I like to run everything through ant tasks so server side scripts are easy to write, this then makes IDE usage quite simple for others, starting the webserver, deploying, running regression testing, etc, etc, simply by choosing an ant target, and often upto 3 at the same time.
    The fact that Eclipse runs like crap on linux (let alone not being 100% java) also supports my belief that the growing Eclipse kamp is filled with M$ wanna-be-programmers ;) Sorry, just couldn't help myself :)

    Anyway, I am quite appalled that an IDE can be taken seriously if it can only run one ant target at a time !!
    So I hope Eclipse gets dropped and the extra effort put into Swing to comfort those 'budding' java programmers out there that like things to look like just another Bill Gate virus infected widget.
    Otherwise... if would be fantastic if the plugin APIs was 'unified'.
  23. Sun considering Eclipse support[ Go to top ]

    I hope that Sun and IBM can streamline the plugin structure to that all plugins of Eclipse work in NetBeans and vise versa. (Or that it would minimize the migration to the other platform). This would stimulate the plugin development in both communities.
    I personally have worked with both IDE's and I like Eclipse more than NetBeans mostly because of the SWT toolkit (Eclipse has a lot more features I like). It makes Eclipse fast and slick.
    I also hope Sun does not try and make Eclipse use Swing again because it makes Eclipse very slow.
  24. Sun considering Eclipse support[ Go to top ]

    If VS .NET is the target, won't a merger just send us steaming towards open source bloatware?

    2 * (100 lb chimp) = 800 lb gorilla?
  25. Geometry[ Go to top ]

    Unfortunately it may be geometric:

    800 ^ 2 = 6400 pounds

    That's a big guerilla. :-)
  26. Geometry[ Go to top ]

    just a correction here Frank

    800 ^ 2 = 64,000. :0)
  27. Gadzooks! He's right![ Go to top ]


  28. ahem[ Go to top ]

    only if the 0 in the smiley counts as a zero.
  29. I'd be out of a job....[ Go to top ]

    I’m a VB programmer as well as a Java programmer. I’ve used VS.NET and Eclipse quite heavily. On the whole I find Eclipse more than adequate for my needs and not remotely clunky (and it doesn’t cost a minimum £700 quid either).. You can no more build an enterprise application using a mouse and Wizards with VS than you can with Eclipse which is a relief to me really since I’d be looking for a new line of work if you could…
  30. Sun considering Eclipse support[ Go to top ]

    I think there are two very, very different user communities that an IDE has to serve. I use both Eclipse and VS.NET on a daily basis (for two separate clients). I always prefer using Eclipse. If I were a new developer getting used to the IDE and OO programming in general, I might prefer VS.NET because it holds my hand a lot more. There are wizards for just about everything, and I can sit down with an intro book to C# or VB.NET and get running in minutes. That's who Microsoft is targeting. It would be interesting if Sun could also reach out to this developer community with some of their new initiatives, but MS has had a lead in this community for a long time.

    I am, however, not a member of that community, so all of comments people make about the superiority of the MS IDE sounds completely backwards to me. I am an experienced developer and don't need hand-holding. I need my IDE to handle more sophisticated development tasks, such as helping me implement a delegate pattern, or helping me create accessor methods, or most importantly, helping me refactor my code. There is absolutely no support in the MS IDE for these things, though I have come to rely on them heavily in Eclipse. There is no way that I can consider VS.NET to be more productive if I have to hand-code accessors, if I have to hand-code delegation, if I can't do things like set a margin line 80 characters out, if I can't do inline refactoring, if I can't easily rename methods, classes, and packages-- the list goes on and on. For the more advanced developer, the MS tools fall pathetically short. I am working on a large .NET project with one of my clients. We have a bunch of classes in a number of namespaces. The namespaces were determined 6 months ago and many of them no longer make sense. But we are reluctant to refactor them because of the vast amount of work involved in a project that is already behind schedule. To rename namespaces in VS.NET, you have to
    1) Edit the namespace declaration in all classes
    2) Potentially reorganize the directories in which the classes reside
    3) Reorganize your source control structures (usually Visual Source Safe)
    4) Rename your assembly, if your assembly derives its name from the top-level namespace
    5) Rename your VS project, if you want it to stay consistent with your assembly name
    6) Edit your project properties so new classes will automatically have the new default namespace instead of the old one
    7) Edit your project properties to update your documentation output to match the new namespaces and project name

    The reluctance to intelligently refactor namespaces drives me up the wall. First, I'm so used to this being so easy in Eclipse that I almost didn't believe how hard it was in VS.NET. Second, I find that any development tool that introduces a barrier to good coding practices is a development tool that I'd rather not use. Unfortunately, there are few alternatives in the .NET world.

    So before everyone starts bitching about how there's no good IDE for Java compared to what Microsoft has, consider who the target audience is. For the experienced, enterprise, server-side developer, the Java IDE market is leaps and bounds more mature than the Microsoft one. I've only mentioned Eclipse. There's also NetBeans, IDEA, and JBuilder, all of which have their own advantages.

    If you don't believe me, find an experienced .NET developer, sit him down, and show him what these IDEs can do. Or if you're a .NET developer who can do more than draw pretty forms, take a tour of any of these products.
  31. Sun considering Eclipse support[ Go to top ]

    The great pity is that IBM did not originally invest their efforts in moving NetBeans to their SWT framework. Eclipse zealots claim that their IDE is the superior choice because of its snappy and responsive GUI, but they can offer little more in the way of advocacy. NetBeans has a far richer set of APIs and a richer application framework in general. Its plugin architecture is not as simple or as straightfordward as the scheme employed by Eclipse, but is consequently far less powerful.
    As regards merging the IDEs, I believe it makes little sense as the functionality of both IDE's is largely duplicated in their plugin sets. As NetBeans provides some sophisticated abstractions in its filesystem/datasystem APIs, it will not be easy to move Eclipse plugins over without rewriting them to fit the NetBeans APIs (bin your code). To move NetBeans plugins to Eclipse would require the duplication of the entire NetBeans APIs within Eclipse (write a lot of new supporting code or bin your code).
    So IMHO the only viable way to merge the efforts is to move NetBeans on to SWT (after all that seems to be the only benefit offered by the IDE), and drop the Eclipse concept altogether. Which is what IBM would have done in the first place if their agenda has been in the interest of the java community.
  32. Sorry, I meant to write "...or as straightfordward as the scheme employed by Eclipse, however the Eclipse approach is consequently far less powerful."

  33. Sun considering Eclipse support[ Go to top ]

    Speed isn't the only factor or even the major factor since Java 1.4 Swing is pretty snappy. I like Eclipse because of:
    1) its cleaner interface
    2) its refactoring ability
    3) its use of native widgets so those native widgets interact with the environment like other widgets
    4) the plugins

    Porting NetBeans to the SWT would buy you 3 and 4, but it would still not have 1 & 2. It would require *a lot* of work, and it still wouldn't will over most Eclipse users. Honestly, I don't see either NetBeans or Eclipse dying out any more than I see the VI versus Emacs debate dying down.

    NetBeans has some functionality that's missing in Eclipse (e.g. editing Swing components via a GUI). IMO, it would be much better to turn NetBean into an SWT plugin. It could probably be done with a bit of refactoring of the current NetBean code to allow both the Swing GUI and the Eclipse plugin to be created from the same code base.
  34. Refactoring in NetBeans[ Go to top ]

    Is there a _free_ refactoring module for NetBeans? Until there is, I will still recommend Eclipse to those that want a free IDE, and IntelliJ IDEA to those that are willing to spend money.
    And what about JUnit? Is the JUnit integration in NetBeans even close to eclipse or IDEA?
    The combination of these features has dramatically increased my productivity.

    I don't think that the GUI difference is very important.
  35. The slow Swing GUI is behind us. Drop SWT so we can all have a standard plugin architecture. This would also free up a bunch of developers in the long run that wouldn't have to maintain the SWT ports for so many platforms. IntelliJ/Workshop run much better on non-Windows platforms because of this.
  36. Agree: Drop SWT[ Go to top ]

    I wrote TestMaker 3.x using NetBeans as an application development framework. The Eclipse evanglism team urged me to port to Eclipse. My biggest fear was to have to maintain separate versions of TestMaker for each platform. In my own experience I don't see why Swing is not fast enough.

    Also, now that Apple has Java 1.4 for my Macintosh OS X systems I am running NetBeans!

    -Frank Cohen
  37. Love it![ Go to top ]

    Just gotta say, in reply to the article author, that Eclipse is the best thing since apple pie.

    I find extremely efficient, and I've tried at least six to seven different editors. I haven't found anything that comes near it. It definitely has speeded up and improved my development, solely through the great overview of the code and the refactoring methods. Actually I think it has speeded up my learning as well, with the great help integration into the IDE.
  38. Love it![ Go to top ]

    Totally agree. After years of trying many different IDE's, eclipse was the only one which finally got me to switch from Visual Slick Edit :-)
  39. Love it![ Go to top ]

    I agree, Eclipse is great.

    BUT... that is not why I started using Eclipse. I used to LOVE NetBeans.
    Then... Sun took over NetBeans and made it bloated. Yes, NetBeans used to be snapy.
    So I hope Eclipse version 3.0 does not become much slower and bloated with features.

  40. Eclipse, SWT, Swing, IntelliJ[ Go to top ]

    I've gotta say, having spent a reasonable amount of time with both IntelliJ IDEA and Eclipse in the past few years, I'd say that IntelliJ IDEA still has a slight edge, but that Eclipse is catching up fast, and has a better price point.

    With respect to the speed of SWT or Swing, I can't comment on their respective performance, but I'd say that IDEA's Swing implementation feels snappier than Eclipse's SWT. If those comparisons hold true, then Eclipse should stop spending time on SWT and get on with building a better IDE.
  41. Eclipse, SWT, Swing, IntelliJ[ Go to top ]

    <..>I'd say that IntelliJ IDEA still has a slight edge, but that Eclipse is catching up fast, and has a better price point.</..>

    Intellij is the bomb. its interesting to see how many of the features of intellij make it into eclipse. the eclipse website should than intellij for an ide blueprint. the intellij guys are clearly blazing the path that everyone has to follow.

    one nice thing about intellij is the EAP process where you directly influence the featureset of the next versions. it doesnt get better than to suggest a featiure, converse with the intellij developers, and a build later, its in the IDE.
  42. WYSIWYG + Middlegen[ Go to top ]

    As long as they decide to work on a WYSIWYG web editor with support for standard JSP tags + struts/webwork/tapestry/... and that has some sort of "data access components" that can read from EJBs, I'm happy. (Something like, but not bound to a custom toolkit/library)

    Oh, and a collaborative project to integrate Middlegen into Eclipse as a standard tool for RAD reverse-engineering components + objects from a database is necessary as well.

    THESE are projects that would make the Java world fly - imagine how fast a J2EE app could be developed with these? (design DB, auto-generate middletier, design UI - done!)
  43. Just the WYSIWYG, Thank You[ Go to top ]

    I cringe to think of the database design driving the rest of development.
  44. Re: Just the WYSIWYG, Thank You[ Go to top ]

    I cringe to think of the database design driving the rest of development.

    I'm not saying that bottom-up development is "the right way", just that it should support this - as well. The best thing would be if you (in the tool) could switch between object (UML) and relational modeling of the same data, just by switching to another tab.

    In other words: a full round-trip relational>objects, objects>relational plugin tool is what is needed for the middle tier, and a WYSIWYG editor is what is needed for the presentation tier.

    At least there's one thing that Microsoft got right: it's the tools that make the difference.
  45. Eclipse versus NetBeans[ Go to top ]

    I have been using both NetBeans and eClipse for a long period. I find both the products very good. Both products have strength and weakness sides. When it comes to productivity, eClipse has some very nice features. However, eClipse binds you to a project metaphor whereas it is easier to work on ad hoc programming with NetBeans.

    I often run eClipse and NetBeans side by side and switch from one to another for different purposes. I use both IDEs as an advanced editor with some nice productivity features.

    If I were going to recommend a real productivity tool, I would definitely recommend Borland's Together Control Center. Apart from its very high price, Together CC does not provide everything you find in eClipse/NetBeans since there are not so many plugins for it. But all in all, Together CC combines model - code - depoly. In my humble opinion, it is the best IDE I have found in the market.