Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes

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News: Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes

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  1. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes (78 messages)

    In a scathing, public letter to Sun, one of Merrill Lynch's top analysts said Thursday that the company is in danger of becoming "irrelevant" and of being acquired unless it fires thousands of workers and refocus its business. The analyst also recommends Sun de-emphasize its Sparc hardware, focus on Intel x86, and spin off Java.

    Read:
    Merrill rips Sun Micro, urges changes.
    Analyst: Sun should spin off Java, cut back on Sparc.

    I was blogging about this yesterday. I guess I have to completely agree with the Merrill Lynch analyst. More of my rant on my blog.

    --Vinny
    http://www.j2eegeek.com/blog/
    Reply to this

    Threaded Messages (78)

  2. Help Secure The Future Of Java[ Go to top ]

    Allow me to quote from the Merrill Lynch write-up story:

    He also wants Sun to spin off Java, the programming language that Sun created. While acknowledging its technological success, Milunovich pointed out its financial failure. "Sun deserves to be a proud father, but Java now belongs to the masses."

    I hear you. Set Java Free. Viva The Java Republic!

    To make sure Sun gets the message allow me to quote from the Viva! call to action:

    * Boycott Swing
    * Boycott NetBeans
    * Boycott Web Start
    * Boycott the Java Cartel Process (JCP)
    * Boycott Java Server Faces (JSF)
    * Boycott Java.Net
    * Embrace Scripting Languages for Java
    * Embrace next-gen XML Markup Languages for rich UIs

    Full details @ http://viva.sourceforge.net/action.html
     
    Join the Free Java Now campaign and help secure the future of Java as an open royality-free standard. Yes, you can make a difference. Take action now.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  3. Okay let me get this straight[ Go to top ]

    We are to boycott all of the things about Java which we may want to use, thereby sabatoging further adoption of the platform so that it can be spun off. So now that we've boycotted all of this Java technology and written it in something else (most likely .Net) - why would we want to come back to the Java technologies? Why does that make sense again?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  4. Please Do Your Homework Before Posting[ Go to top ]

    We are to boycott all of the things about Java which we may want to use, thereby

    > sabatoging further adoption of the platform so that it can be spun off. So now
    > that we've boycotted all of this Java technology and written it in something
    > else (most likely .Net) - why would we want to come back to the Java
    > technologies? Why does that make sense again?

      Gregory, you didn't even bother to read the Viva! call to action. The point is to boycott Sun's offering and use free better alternatives instead. Allow me to quote:

      * Boycott Swing - Use SWT, wx4j, Qt Java or Java Gnome Instead
      * Boycott NetBeans - Use Eclipse Instead
      * Boycott Java Server Follies (JSF) - Use WebWork Instead
      * and so on and so forth

      - Gerald
    Reply to this Reply to original

  5. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    BEA might be a takeover target by HP. Can IBM takeover SUN?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  6. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Either IBM or DELL may buy SUNW for its installed base and move Solaris users to the Linux platform. IBM may indeed outbid DELL. HPQ may also be potentially interested in SUNW for the same reason, but it has a more pressing need in buying BEAS to complete Carly's grand strategy.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  7. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    BEA might be a takeover target by HP.


    Remember Bluestone. HP lost $500m.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  8. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    BEA might be a takeover target by HP.

    >
    > Remember Bluestone. HP lost $500m.

    Believe me, I remember. I was with HP Middleware Division from cradle to grave (joined Bluestone just before). It was an unmitigated disaster and the fallout personally for me was quite painful. HP has a HORRIBLE legacy as a Java software vendor and in acquiring software companies in general. However...

    On reflection, Bluestone was doomed anyway; it had run it's course and consolidation would have wiped it out regardless (IMHO - I know longtime Bluestoners will HATE me for saying that). And BEA is not Bluestone. This time, given an appropriate price point and an open acknowledgment by HP management of how horribly they mangled and strangled Bluestone/HPMD, an HP acquisition of BEA makes perfect sense. A new HPMD with BEA at it's core (there would need to be one or two more significant acquisitions to go along with it) would give HP what it needs to truly compete head-to-head with IBM, Oracle, and Microsoft as a software paltform vendor.

    What would be different from last time? How about the experience from last time: what NOT to do? There wouldn't be large internal factions trying to kill HPMD from the inside from Day One, like HP Consulting did. There wouldn't be the massive distraction of immediately turning 180 degrees in the other direction and pursuing the Compaq merger. It could work.

    That, and Sun does NEED to spin Java off and allow it to become Open Source.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  9. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    That's an interesting thought. Sun's Market cap as of today is about $11 billion while IBM's market cap is about $158 billion. IBM could buy Sun to put it out of it's misery, pick up their customers and get complete ownership of Java.

    That would not be a bad deal for IBM -- They are pretty much betting their future on Linux and Java with the big-iron and IBM Global services paying for all of this. Interesting.. I guess time will tell.

    --Vinny
    http://www.j2eegeek.com/blog/
    Reply to this Reply to original

  10. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    That's an interesting thought. Sun's Market cap as of today is about $11 billion while IBM's market cap is about $158 billion. IBM could buy Sun to put it out of it's misery, pick up their customers and get complete ownership of Java.

    >
    > That would not be a bad deal for IBM -- They are pretty much betting their future on Linux and Java with the big-iron and IBM Global services paying for all of this. Interesting.. I guess time will tell.


    That will be bad for Java. Now, Sun and IBM are two major competitors of Java. Competition makes things perfect, and cheaper.

    While Sun’s java implementation is free why IBM still implements it’s own Java? That is the lesson IBM learned from the war between Windows and OS2. IBM and Microsoft were jointly developing OS2. The C compiler (the only compiler) for OS2 was made from Microsoft. When they broke up, Microsoft stopped to work on C compiler of OS2. That instantly made OS2 years behind of Windows. Now, IBM learned that, so it has its own Java compiler and Eclipse (I know it is an open source, but more or less, it is IBM’s). If IBM buys Sun. IBM do not need two Javas. IBM will find no difficulties to make money directly from Java.

    I agree that Sun gives Java for free hoping to make money later. What is Microsoft’s strategy? It is: charge you today and hoping to make money later. IBM will be the same when it owns Java.

    This is only my opening. I do not work for Sun.

    Wei Jiang
    Perfecting J2EE!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  11. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    1. I think one of the reasons for ibm, bea to build their own "java" was to correct some slow ass behaviour of Suns Java. We all know the performance of bea , ibm java especially on the front end AWT/SWING is better than sun Java.

    2. For no reason some of us drag MSFT into the discussion, why ?? Lets just discuss whats SUN gonna do or should do instead worrying about MSFt going to take over the universe.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  12. BEA and IBM faster with Swing?[ Go to top ]

    Strange, in my tests that (Swing+AWT) is the only area where Sun's VM are better, in startup, memory consumption, smoothnes and speed. Actually, Blackdown is a king on Linux when Swing,J2D and AWT are in question. Which is basically Suns HotSpot with few tweaks.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  13. HP??[ Go to top ]

    You never know, how stupid management can become, but I do not
    see how taking over BEA would do HP any good.

    - It would not take any pressure from a competing product at HP
    (Bluestone is unfortunately bad)

    - It would loose BEA most of the customers that use it on
     - AIX
     - Solaris
     - NT
     - ...

    I just can't see how that would ever work out.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  14. HP??[ Go to top ]

    You never know, how stupid management can become, but I do not

    > see how taking over BEA would do HP any good.
    >
    > - It would not take any pressure from a competing product at HP
    > (Bluestone is unfortunately bad)
    >
    > - It would loose BEA most of the customers that use it on
    > - AIX
    > - Solaris
    > - NT
    > - ...
    >
    > I just can't see how that would ever work out.

    Correct me if I am wrong. This will help HP to sell a package rather than just OS. I read HP has already teamed up with Accentre and BEA to compete with IBM-IGS.

    And if IBM can sell WebSphere to run on Solaris, NT, and HP-UX why not HP sell WebLogic to run on Solaris,NT and AIX??
    Reply to this Reply to original

  15. HP??[ Go to top ]

    Correct me if I am wrong. This will help HP to sell a package rather than

    > just OS. I read HP has already teamed up with Accentre and BEA to compete
    > with IBM-IGS.
    >
    > And if IBM can sell WebSphere to run on Solaris, NT, and HP-UX why not HP
    > sell WebLogic to run on Solaris,NT and AIX??

    I very much doubt that websphere is much used on Solaris and HP/UX. It might be used on NT of course. The reason I think that HP cannot do it is, because they have absolutely no reputation and credability as a software vendor. To buy BEA and integrate it into the HP portfolio will damage the product. To buy BEA and let it run on as its own brand will not much good either. And what's more, if BEA is owned by HP there will be little incentive for companies like accenture to work with BEA in the first place since HP has such a strong PS arm, much like IBM really....
    Reply to this Reply to original

  16. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Sun has spent so much money and effort to give Java to us for free, that costs Sun financial problems. I almost feel guilty.

    Like many other people, I like free things. I started computing since 1980. I bought C compiler, C++ compiler and many other things. When I got Java for free (started from JDK 1 alpha), I could not belief it! Sun was the only big company who gave major things to us for free. That movement has forced IBM to give Eclipse for free (Visual age was very expensive). If Sun is force to surrender Java, will any company will research and develop any thing and give products for free?

    I like Swing. I like J2EE. Do you want Microsoft to dominate again? Will Microsoft give us anything for free (except for security holes)?

    Wei Jiang
    Perfecting J2EE!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  17. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Well, this is a capitalistic society. As a company, you need to make money to survive. When you give something away for free, you better make more money somewhere else. SUNW gives away Java hoping to sell more Solaris boxes, but today no one is foolish enough to buy SUNW's hardware, if they can live with M$FT Windows or even better use Linux. That's SUNW's fundamental problem. M$FT did not destroy SUNW, Linux did it.

    Don't feel guilty either - you used Java, that means you gave SUNW a chance. They could have made money off you by selling you a nice app server. They had their chance when they bought NetDynamics, Forte, and Kiva. However, their executives are so inept in the software business. What can you do? It's lights out time, folks. Java Desktop? What a joke. It is a dead bounce at best. Not even Linux can compete with M$FT on desktop.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  18. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    <eric ma>
    Not even Linux can compete with M$FT on desktop
    </eric ma>

    Got to agree on that....
    Reply to this Reply to original

  19. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]


    Not even Linux can compete with M$FT on desktop.


    It can and it does...

    Anyway Java should be open-sourced as soon as possible and given over someone else than Sun. I like the aproach IBM has taken with Eclipse. Java has, imho, outgrown SUN.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  20. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    I said:
    > Not even Linux can compete with M$FT on desktop.

    You said:
    > It can and it does...

    How many home PC users do you know have switched to Linux? And corporate "knowledge workers"? Yeah, you and me the "geek" Java developers have long switches to Linux, but does Bill Gates/Steve Ballmer care?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  21. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    maybe it sould be phrased like this: Not even Linux can compete with M$FT on desktop yet.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  22. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    @Eric Ma:

    hmmm, yeah well, more and more users are switching to Linux. Some willingly, some not :-) (Munich, S. Korea,...) I know that more and more universities are also using Linux in their classrooms. Linux usage is not as negligible as you may think.

    And Steve Ballmer DOES care. Hehehe, he even left his holidays in Switzerland this year and went to the Mayor of Munich.

    I think the days of closed-source systems are drawing to an end. Maybe not so soon, but hey, if I can find open-source replacements for my tasks why would I care about Micro$oft?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  23. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    I see many OEMs (HP, Dell ...) selling their PCs with Linux installed at a lesser price in India. No surprise if Linux replaces Windows as Desktop ... sooner the better.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  24. Linux on the desktop[ Go to top ]

    I see many OEMs (HP, Dell ...) selling their PCs with Linux installed at a lesser price in India. No surprise if Linux replaces Windows as Desktop ... sooner the better.


    Do you have any stats on how many companies are actually buying it? I doubt if a home user would buy a PC from one of these companies when he can assemble it for much less.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  25. It can't, and it doesn't[ Go to top ]

    It can't, and it doesn't - and believe you me - I'm no Microsoft fan.

    However, there's no competition between the Windows and Linux desktop (ofcourse, I'm only talking about ease-of-use, not server capabilities, which is the other way around). Sure, Linux went a long way and provided many things that until recently existed only on Windows, but Linux is still in the "good-enough" category here. No better.

    I myself need Hebrew support - native, robust, Hebrew support. That only exists partially in Linux - not everywhere, not on all flavours, and not (yet) in a robust way. It also lacks the richness of applications Windows enjoys today.

    Luckily, Linux is gaining more and more ground and is slowly catching up, but it still has some way to go.

    Arik.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  26. It can't, and it doesn't[ Go to top ]


     It can't, and it doesn't - and believe you me - I'm no Microsoft fan.


    How can you say that, when Linux usage has risen A LOT in the last few years. Obviously, for many users it can and it does.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  27. It can't, and it doesn't[ Go to top ]

    This discussion starts to get off-topic so this is my last word on Linux vs. Windows:

    I am orginally from China so let me use this anology:

    China has grown a lot in the last 5 years and I am very pround of the fact. However, when I asked myself when will China catch up with the US? I know it will probably not happen in my life time. Why? The gap is so huge, and US is not standing still. I believe it is the same situation between Linux and Windows on desktop.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  28. It can't, and it doesn't[ Go to top ]

    Ok, let me tell you what I believe:
    I believe that I have to use a tool that best suits my needs and my pocket. Will Linux be ever better than Windows in every little detail? Probably, but I don't care. What I care is that I can do more things in Linux (and more quickly) than in Windows. Of course, my needs are not the same as yours.

    And that is my last word on Linux vs. Windows :-)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  29. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Not even Linux can compete with M$FT on desktop.

    Linux isn't winning in the USA and a few countries in Europe. Everywhere else, Linux is competing vigorously with Windows on the desktop.

    The reason why? Probably because Microsoft got the piracy protection much better. Windows is just too expensive for a lot of people in the world. Windows licenses (US$160) cost almost as much as computers do now (as low as US$200). Windows used to have piracy rates of over 99% in some countries. Now, they use Linux.

    For me, Windows is well worth it. OTOH, If I were poor and it doubled the cost of my computer, I'd learn to use Linux, even though it is missing my little buddy "clippy".

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  30. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Not even Linux can compete with M$FT on desktop.

    >
    > Linux isn't winning in the USA and a few countries in Europe. Everywhere else, Linux is competing vigorously with Windows on the desktop.

    Eh. Thats not really true. Here in Japan (the world's third largest economy) it isn't "competing vigorously" on the desktop.

    If you combine the US, Japan, and Western Europe you have a huge percentage of the desktops for which people actually pay.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  31. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Dan -

    Eh. Thats not really true. Here in Japan (the world's third largest economy) it isn't "competing vigorously" on the desktop.

    Yes, Japan (like most affluent countries) can afford Windows. I wasn't suggesting that Windows isn't being used, just that there are very real economic reasons why Linux on the desktop is taking hold in many parts of the world, including in Asia.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  32. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,
    are you implying that people that have money spend it?

    I disagree.

    People that have it, do not spend it, and thus they stay profitable.
    I use Open Source to save money!!! And maximize my margin.
    Ex:
    http://news.com.com/2100-7344_3-5084442.html?tag=nefd_top


    http://www.opensource.org/advocacy/case_for_business.php
    Like the saying says, a fool and his money will soon part.
    Do you think people wear Gucci becuase they have $, or becuase they are insecure about self image?
    .V
    Reply to this Reply to original

  33. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

    > are you implying that people that have money spend it?
    >
    > I disagree.
    >

    I don't think he said that. What he claimed is more that "people
    who have no money can not spend it", people who do may.

    Von reichen Leuten kann man sparen lernen....
    Reply to this Reply to original

  34. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    What he claimed is more that "people

    > who have no money can not spend it", people who do may.
    >
    > Von reichen Leuten kann man sparen lernen....

    But if you spend it.... then you do not have it anymore?

    If you have a deprtmnetal budget, for a small sytem, maybe it's ok to spend.

    However, on the web, you could have system that has 100,000 users, or more that come to your site.
    Would you spend money on:
    Advanced Server ($15K per server), MS SQL ($25K per server), Exchahnage ($12K per server), IIS etc.or

    Liunx (Linux license says you can't charge for it, it must be free, so RedHat, etc. charge for CD, but you can download it, link on readhat and on basicportal.com for a free download),
    Postgresql.org, send mail, apache.
    All free, so keep the money, so you have the money.

    .V
    Reply to this Reply to original

  35. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    |
    |All free, so keep the money, so you have the money.
    |

    Perhaps this shows some naivety?

    If you dont spend it, you will lose your budget allocation, of course - and for next year too! ;-)

    -Nick
    Reply to this Reply to original

  36. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    However, on the web, you could have system that has 100,000 users, or more

    > that come to your site.
    > Would you spend money on:
    > Advanced Server ($15K per server), MS SQL ($25K per server), Exchahnage ($12K > per server), IIS etc.or
    >

     
    > Liunx (Linux license says you can't charge for it, it must be free, so
    > RedHat, etc. charge for CD, but you can download it, link on readhat and on > basicportal.com for a free download),
    > Postgresql.org, send mail, apache.
    > All free, so keep the money, so you have the money.
    >

    Ah, an interesting trail of thought. But it doesn't work like this. First,
    most people in the industry do not spend their own money, but the companies money. That makes a big difference. Secondly you can buy all the stuff above fully installed on some dedicated pieces of hardware, you can do that with the "free" stuff as well, but then it will be about as expensive. And finally it also depends on people and timeframes. If you have no unix/linux people around, you will need a fair amount of training. Even more so with the database.....
    Reply to this Reply to original

  37. Sun's approach: Java Desktop System & Java Enterprise System[ Go to top ]

    I would like to understand what is the flaw with the recently announced subject products/strategy from Sun. The pricing from memory is:

    Java Desktop System on its own: $100 per employee per year
    Java Enteprise System on its own: $100 per employee per year
    Combined: $150 per employee per year

    The JDS comes with Linux, Java, Star office, etc. Linux desktop and Star office are pretty useable these days - yes even by a Granny yardstick. The JES is all of the back office stuff. The technologies are all standards based with several suppliers just in case Sun tanks or the corporation wants to switch to open source free (self-supported) options. Why wouldn't large corporations want to switch to JDS/JES at that price? Also, apps developed in Java do not tie corporations into any one company or OS. Where is the value proposition from M$ on this? Why wouldn't corporations that are looking to cut costs not switch to JDS/JES?

    Does the JDS/JES not appear to be a better long term approach for Sun rather then trying to become yet another supplier of the Wintel HW, ala Dell/HP/IBM?

    Thanks for your feedback.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  38. Sun's approach: Java Desktop System & Java Enterprise System[ Go to top ]

    Why wouldn't large corporations want to switch to JDS/JES at that price?

    Because of the price of actual switching is much higher than the price of the second-rated software SUNW offers.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  39. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    Eh. Thats not really true. Here in Japan (the world's third largest economy) it isn't "competing vigorously" on the desktop.

    >
    Actually Japan is the world's second largest economy.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  40. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    There are few things to note about SUNW's and that is :
    They are/were #1 in SPARC/UNIX market.
                   #1 to shape the programming industry by giving free java !!!
    they have the capability innovate new things keeping in mind
    #1. enterprise capability, security etc...

    Few nagative things about sunw is:
    Not paying attention to Forte IDE, sun App server, Java desktop/ or SUN UNIX which runs on i86 like Linux. SUN needs to remodel there business interms of how to get money like IBM GLOBAL service, I got surprised on why sunw is running out of ideas and even doent show quick interest in learning from their competitors like IBM, IBM doesn't give anything free.
    Sun sd have one ref. impl of java and one professional impl. of java to charge.

    atlast sun sd never give up the control on java, otherwise IBM and others will make them junk java.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  41. .NET is FREE[ Go to top ]

    The .NET framework is free. You have everything you need to compile and run .NET in it, even a debugger. Don't talk about things you don't know.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  42. .NET is FREE[ Go to top ]

    The .NET framework is free. You have everything you need to compile and run .NET in it, even a debugger. Don't talk about things you don't know.

    >

    No, its not free. You have to buy windows first.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  43. .NET is FREE[ Go to top ]

    The .NET framework is free. You have everything you need to compile and run .NET in it, even a debugger. Don't talk about things you don't know.


    Hey, that sounds like what Sun would say ("Solaris is Linux" and “we are open”).

    You can take Sun to be early indicator, for who is next:
    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html
    See how/who they are trailing Sun?
    "Guess who is next?" (tm)

    For a small site, MS makes sense.
    But if you had racks of 1u servers, commercial site (for profit), you would have to license DB servers, file servers, application servers, portal servers, mail servers, staging/development, no end to it. (unless you plan violating the license)
    What if you needed 10 servers in production, what is the license cost of proprietary?

    My point: People that have money, don't spend it, so they have it. To wear Gucci is insecure.

    Some people say: "Oh, they are running IIS/Advanced server because they had $?" other say "oops, they spent all this money, and it is poor quality (insecure)"

    Good luck with MS operating costs for non-departmental needs.
    .V
    Reply to this Reply to original

  44. Linux[ Go to top ]

    If you looked the latest release surveys, there were more Linux boxes
    hacked into that Windows boxes. The only thing is that Microsoft is
    publised more as it is human nature that when you are at the top
    you must be knocked down everytime.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  45. Analysts are parasites[ Go to top ]

    Merrill Lnych! !! Isn't this is the same fine firm that gave us Henry Blodget ! Remember him and his ilk??

    It will be a sad day for all technologists everywhere when beancounters are able to successfully create a FUD hysteria that forces tech companies into a financial spiral.

    I am a fan of Sun : this is the same company that brought us Java and J2EE. Is anybody here old enough to remember what a royal pain distributed computing was back in the days of COM and CORBA ? Does anyone recall any Freel and Usable Distributed Computing stack before J2EE? Or does anyone even remember what a POS VisualAge was before Netbeans/ Forte came along as free alternatives?

    It will be a long while before I trust advise from Merrill Lnych!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  46. The Loon at it again[ Go to top ]

    <snip>
    It will be a sad day for all technologists everywhere when beancounters are able to successfully create a FUD hysteria that forces tech companies into a financial spiral.
    </snip>
    The ML analyst Steven Milunovich, apparently, is on a crusade to pull down Sun - and this is not his first attempt. See http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/32883.html.

    Peace,
    Binil
    Reply to this Reply to original

  47. Analysts are parasites[ Go to top ]

    I understand that after the Wall Street research scandals last year the public's trust on sell-side research analysts has hit an all-time low. However, not all analysts are like Jack Grubman and Henry Blodgett. You have to accept the fact that outside the company executives, these are the people who know the companies businesses the best, even though their predictions on stock prices can be way off often times - no genius can predict the market correctly all the time, no matter how hard (s)he works at it.

    In the case of Merrill's analyst's gloom and doom analysis of SUNW's current business, I think his opinion should be taken very seriously, because he is not the only one who has issues with SUNW's fast-shrinking revenues and business model. As techies you and me can also see the trend - Solaris/SPARC is being pushed aside by Linux, and SUNW's software initiatives have yet to shown any sign of viability. Now they want to confront the 800 (more like 8,000) lb gorilla on the desktop. I wouldn't make any bet on its chances.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  48. Analysts are parasites[ Go to top ]

    Read the article again -- two phrases should jump at you: "spin-off" & "acquisition" . This is a blatant attempt by the the the "Research" arm of Merill Lynch to generate business for its "Investment Banking" business. They've played this game before.

    <Eric>
    You have to accept the fact that outside the company executives, these are the people who know the companies businesses the best
    </Eric>

    I agree with this , however the analysts will alway draw conclusion that is intended to maximize the business for the Investment Banking arm of the instituion as those are the guys who pay the bills. And "spin-offs" and "acquisitions" business are big money makers for them.

    Analysts are not just your ordinary garden variety parasites - they are a bunch of scheming devious little parasites.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  49. Analysts are parasites[ Go to top ]

    Read the article again -- two phrases should jump at you: "spin-off" & "acquisition" . This is a blatant attempt by the the the "Research" arm of Merill Lynch to generate business for its "Investment Banking" business. They've played this game before.

    Maybe or maybe not. If SUNW does want to "spin off" its Java division, Merrill has just kissed goodbye to any hope of being the underwriter now that its analyst published an unflattering note about SUNW and McNealy. OTOH, if IBM were to "acquire" SUNW, I guess Merrill still has the potential to make some nice pocket change if it is chosen as an advisor.

    The true intention aside, IMHO the Merrill analyst painted an accurate picture of the troubled state SUNW's business is in.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  50. Analysts are parasites[ Go to top ]

    Eric,
     I do agree with argument that apart from company board only the analysts know much abt.the companie's financial position.

    And thats the point. Yes. i see Sun's market is not expanding , and getting squeezed in both ends. But dont the company know this problem?? I mean if you and me are concerned and know this problem, why not sun?? My guess is, soon sun will make changes in their business strategies. Its too early to predict anything otherwise.

    And about these analysts, for Chirst's sake, tell me , do u ever believe them?? Most of these analysts and Investment Banks got vested interests. That makes all their analysis not trustworthy. This is like analysing java on MS behalf. (you know how the result would be!!)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  51. Analysts[ Go to top ]

    And this anyalyst at Moodys, talks about Sun's debt:
    http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/030930/tech_sunmicro_moodys_2.html

    And this links talks about Earings of Sun, vs others in sector:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/co?s=SUNW

    And this one talks about market share of Sun:
    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2003/04/10/java_servlet_engines.html
    Yes, someday they will double it.
    You can blame anayalsts.
    Sun's bus. plan appears to litigate, and wait for customers to return to proprietary.

    A repost
    http://news.com.com/2100-7344_3-5084442.html?tag=nefd_top

    This is the new direction. !!!! I realy, realy like it.
    "Guess who is next?" (tm)


    .V



    _
    Reply to this Reply to original

  52. Analysts are parasites[ Go to top ]

    There is no putting intentions aside. Everyone in the world, even people who've never heard of Sun Microsystems, know about the problems with SUNW. For those of you who don't follow the market, SUNW has been one of the best money making swing stocks the past year outside of penny stocks. Analysts know this, they know it is high volume, and that it has dropped 90% in the past 2 years so there is alot of investor nervousness. This analyst didn't say anything factual that anyone didn't know about Sun's business or voice opinions that everyone hasn't heard a million times. His comments were purely motivated by greed. He knows Sun is volatile, he knows investors are skittish, he knows it is high volume and swinging wildly already. This is the biggest, most blatant market manipulation since GE sunk Enron. The difference was, that in that case, it was one company using scandal to kill off a competitor. In this case, it is an investment firm trying to profit by killing off a legitimate company for their own profit. This is the type of thing that undermines capitalism.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  53. SUN TO STAND FOR JAVA ![ Go to top ]

    Thinl about:
    Sun gives away Solaris
    Sun gives away x86 Server
    Sun moves to consulting over Java Solutions for the Enterprise, and save a lot of money by selling it`s SERVER DIVISION to IBM ?

    Note about the java future:
    If the next major OS is Linux(both on Server and Desktop), Wy not make Linux the primary plaform for Java (instead of Windows) ?

    Wy not concetrate focus on efective solutions for the desktop (with Java) OVER Linux ?

    Does anyone really think that Microsoft do not realise that to succeed with Windows on the server side, Java must be fully suported ?
    .NET was created just to minimize this dependency.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  54. SUN TO STAND FOR JAVA ![ Go to top ]

    Sorry, I meant:
    Wy not concetrate focus on efective solutions for the desktop (with Java) RUNNING ON Linux ?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  55. Buyout of SUN not so easy[ Go to top ]

    SUNW as per yesterdays report has 4 Billion in cash - thats a lot and they just released desk top java, sun ONE etc. So I think we should wait and watch and not make our discussion threads longer :)

    PS> One (obvious) rumuor i heard was lay offs in Nov and shifting more development work to india to cut costs. Lets see
    Reply to this Reply to original

  56. Analyst rips Sun, urges Java spinoff & other major changes[ Go to top ]

    I am sick of these Analysts.

    Why he want to write a public letter? Whats the intention and where it came from?

    This is a corporate issue.If this so called analyst has any investments in Sun MicroSystems, he should raise the issue in board meeting.

    And I have to remember, these are the same sort of analysts who tipped the tech. stocks at the same time privately commenting the very same stocks as Junk.

    Oh! Before Sun or Scot McNealy needs a change of image, these so called analysts must chnage their image. its about time!!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  57. Future of Java secure[ Go to top ]

    All,

    Who cares what happens to Sun. Java's future is very very secure. We've got organizations like JBoss.org, SourceForge, CodeHaus, Apache's Jakarta, ObjectWeb, and Eclipse to promote innovation and new developments. These organizations are flurishing and growing. We've got Blackdown, JRockit, and IBM's JDK, and RedHat is planning to do an open source JVM as well. So who cares how badly Sun is doing.

    Does Microsoft have ANY of the above? Even one organization? Ximian you say? The Mono project? Please....Novell will make sure that goes sour.

    Bill
    Reply to this Reply to original

  58. Future of Java secure[ Go to top ]

    "JBoss.org, SourceForge, CodeHaus, Apache's Jakarta, ObjectWeb, and Eclipse".

    So, who's standard should I follow? See my point? What is the guarantee that these orgs will work together? Sun ensures ONE standard.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  59. Future of Java secure[ Go to top ]

    <!-- So, who's standard should I follow? See my point? What is the guarantee that these orgs will work together? Sun ensures ONE standard. -->

    I couldn't agree more. It's better to have Just one company control over Java (naturally SUN),instead of having an array of open source shaping Java. Java is safe as far as it's not an open source, other wise say bye bye to Linux too, and start preparing to write C#. Open source is good till a limit,and I think SUN have kept a very good harmony of openess and control in terms of JCP and being it's moderator. I give SUN a big credit for that.

    I don't know why people on this BB is so keen to bash SUN. I mean who cares for this stupid analyst (check his history, I bet this stupid must have predicted the boom of B2B too:-) Without SUN's Java, by now we all would be writing VB on Intel/Win32 paltform and this BB would never exist.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  60. Future of Java secure[ Go to top ]

    <!-- So, who's standard should I follow? See my point? What is the guarantee that these orgs will work together? Sun ensures ONE standard. -->

    >
    > I couldn't agree more. It's better to have Just one company control over Java (naturally SUN),instead of having an array of open source shaping Java. Java is safe as far as it's not an open source, other wise say bye bye to Linux too, and start preparing to write C#. Open source is good till a limit,and I think SUN have kept a very good harmony of openess and control in terms of JCP and being it's moderator. I give SUN a big credit for that.
    >
    > I don't know why people on this BB is so keen to bash SUN. I mean who cares for this stupid analyst (check his history, I bet this stupid must have predicted the boom of B2B too:-) Without SUN's Java, by now we all would be writing VB on Intel/Win32 paltform and this BB would never exist.

    You've missed my point. Java's future is secure even if Sun's is not. The current Java community(open source and commercial) is just so much bigger and vibrant than Sun and the JCP. Do we need a JCP? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I'm glad it exists, but if it disappears because Sun can't fund it anymore, this will not be the end of Java.

    .Net on the other hand is a different story. What happens if Microsoft decides that it is not the core of its strategy anymore? Who picks up and carries the flag for C# and .Net overall?

    Bill
    Reply to this Reply to original

  61. Future of Java secure[ Go to top ]

    Bill: What happens if Microsoft decides that it is not the core of its strategy anymore? Who picks up and carries the flag for C# and .Net overall?

    Yes, and it's not a question of "if", but simply "when".

    On the other hand, Microsoft is generally more "responsible" now as a "big established company" than they were ten years ago. They've had a reasonable EOL strategy for products now for a while. They're going to turn into an IBM I think ;-) which is not necessarily an altogether bad thing if you depend on Microsoft software (most companies do).

    Microsoft is also less apt to focus so much backwards compatibility. Things break across releases, even relatively minor releases. Sun, more like IBM, avoids breaking things, even if it means leaving stuff in a perpetual mess sometimes. But even Microsoft is getting pretty conservative in this area.

    I think your point about the size of the community + market is much more important. Microsoft outweighs all the other software providers in that market combined, and is basically putting its own partners out of business or consigning them to smaller and smaller niches (e.g. its new CRM product line competes with a number of long-time Microsoft partners). So as always, the message from Microsoft is, "work with us, and then we'll put you out of business eventually." Sun might have the same intent, but they never successfully deliver on it ;-).

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    Reply to this Reply to original

  62. WHO IS THE REAL COMPETITION WITH?[ Go to top ]

    Let me get off track here a bit...

    If you think Java is competing against Microsoft for its existence, you might be entirely wrong! Microsoft itself is in ruins right now with the major failure of its .net platform (dont u think it should have picked up years ago if people had such good faith in it!)

    The real path for SUN would be to do a fundamental change. Now read the full para below before starting to crib:

    Java should come in 2 flavours now:

    1. JVM - Intermediate language version
    2. MLV - Machine language version (.EXE)

    for development purposes they can even supply the compilers for cross platforms- devs can take pain to download , users wont, if u see my point!

    MLV is needed as it would help it compete with C++ (which is picking up not coz of its flexibilities but for the independence from any sort of VMs mainly)

    JVM independence will mean that Java doesn't have to beg MS for its implementation (JVM1.4 is 14MB which is hard for a dial-up user to download)And having JVM version too would help in the sense that it maintains its status-quo.

    After having established itself in the class of system languages - it can move on independently without the fear of being eliminated and then its simplicity and robustness can definitely make MS go completely nuts. (sorry, i ma not anti-MS but anyone against java is against me ;)

    J2ee, JDE, mobile java and so many other branches of it are already doing fine and will continue to.

    Now you can start cribbing..go on! give it a bash..!

    Cheers,
    Amit Jain
    [email protected]
    Reply to this Reply to original

  63. Future of Java secure[ Go to top ]

    Every Organization is having a good time and a lean time So do Sun Is having
    .I have full faith in Scott i think he is the person with big Vission and a cool
    Mind to Think.

    As per Java Technology is conserned It will Never Die Because there is no ulternative to it ,No Other langauage is so Clean and beautifully desigend
    Past six years i have woked with Java and i think it the best of the rest.
    But there is always scope of improvment.

    I also think Sun should charge for jdk may be a minimum amount like 10$ or so
    but it should not be free because i feel free thinks are take very lightly.

    If you are a Compute Sce.. Student then you must be Knowing how much Sun has
    given to the Industry .

    as per Solaris is conserned it the best in the Sigment. The Indian Railways Reservation System is on Solaris Servers and its bearing more then 1000000
    transaction per day
    what else you Guys want from SUN
    It just change in Strategy an the thins will be back in Shape.

    Anyway I pray to GOD For SUN and i hope it will listen to me

    OM Mangalam for SUN
    Reply to this Reply to original

  64. Petition to Spin Java from Sun - Please Consider[ Go to top ]

    One option to consider is to spin off Java from Sun. There are several big advantages to this.

    Please consider supporting this movement:
    Spin Java Petition

    Original Info:
    Should Sun spin off Java as a separate software company?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  65. Guess who is next?[ Go to top ]

    Input:
    https://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=21727

    I can increase my margin when I learn from above!!!

    Guess who is next? He, he.

    .V

    (ps: when I read finance pages, Sun has no earning and growing debt(and debt is larger than cash on hand); and no market share)

    Another take:
    http://newsforge.com/newsforge/03/10/02/1240243.shtml?tid=3
    Reply to this Reply to original

  66. Guess who is next?[ Go to top ]

    A typo:
    http://news.com.com/2100-7344_3-5084442.html?tag=nefd_top
    is the new direction. !!!! I realy, realy like it.

    http://www.petitiononline.com/spinjava/petition.html
    Sounds good.

    > Input:
    > https://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=21727
    >
    > I can increase my margin when I learn from above!!!
    >
    > Guess who is next? He, he.
    >
    > .V
    >
    > (ps: when I read finance pages, Sun has no earning and growing debt(and debt is larger than cash on hand); and no market share)
    >
    > Another take:
    > http://newsforge.com/newsforge/03/10/02/1240243.shtml?tid=3
    Reply to this Reply to original

  67. Petition to Spin Java from Sun - Please Consider[ Go to top ]

    Spinning of java as a separate software company might not provide any value for SUN. Java is the only IP which can provide some cash value for them. SUN will be a better take over target with Java in the portfolio not without it.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  68. Sun is it own enemy![ Go to top ]

    Sun products that has disappeared in a black hole! (They might be there somewhere, but you dont hear about them)
    1) What happened to iPlanet?
    2) What happened to Cobalt?
    3) What happened to Liberty Alliance?


    Who has:
    1) The #1 J2EE Server? (not Sun!)
    2) The #1 Java IDE? (not Sun!)


    Important questions:
    1) SPARC, how does it compare to Intel, PowerPC, AMD? (Marketing, gives us benchmarks!)
    2) Solaris or Linux? (Marketing, The world thinks that Solaris is dying, tell us why we should use Solaris?)

    Marketing, marketing, marketing, marketing.......
    Reply to this Reply to original

  69. The Loon[ Go to top ]

    Not for nothing is Steven Milunovich aka The Loon. Recommending Sun throw out Sparc – a product that that has leading market share in a multibillion-dollar business – hardly seems like a terribly good short-term move.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/61/31923.html
    Reply to this Reply to original

  70. Sparc Hardware[ Go to top ]

    Take anything an analyst says with a grain of salt. There are analysts who've said that IBM should break itself up into smaller chunks, so that the business units that provide faster growth are not subsidizing those that are "stagnant". However, look what following that advice has done for AT&T. If IBM broke up, it would be the same thing...the whole is clearly greater than the sum of the parts.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  71. Memories of Enron[ Go to top ]

    Isn't it the same analyst who rated Enron as "Strong Buy" couple of years back? No? Not the same one?

    Well, it must be true then ;-)

    .
    Reply to this Reply to original

  72. Thanks to Sun! Time to move on...[ Go to top ]

    Sun deserves the credit for bringing us one of the most BEAUTIFUL programming languages ever designed. I know there are many others. But, Java is a beauty!

    Stop for a second and think about it. Think of how revolutionary the ideas were that even a giant like Microsoft copied 90% of the language and is now marketing it as C#. Think of the excitement and market (and hype, unfortunately) that Java brought to all of us.

    I admire Sun for all they have done in all those years. They are one of the most partner-friendly companies. They are the poineers of the community process. It's not easy for companies to act in groups with clashing interests.

    It's a pity Sun could not capitalize on Java as Microsoft does with their programming products. The harsh reality though is that Java now belongs to us, the community. Whether Sun wanted it to happen this way is a mystery, but as of today, Java is a de facto "donation" to the community. But Sun also have to realize the dynamics of the day, and adapt. They have to find new ways to conduct business, form new aliances, concentrate on innovation.

    I hate analysits. They have their own agendas. Frankly, if that analyst cared about Sun, he could find different ways to acknowledge his concerns. He could talk to Sun, or I do not know...something more "humane"...this just sounds so humiliatimg... makes me wanna puke...

    I will be watching in the coming months for the business transactions and acquisitions related to Sun. I am sure the real agenda is far from a "frank" concerns and recommendations to Sun. When the time comes Meryll will sure have their knives sharpened to cut a fat piece of the "deal". I am also sure that the integrity of the Java community will not let such cynical open "letter"s distract their loyalty to the creator of the beauty - Sun.

    PS: Who the heck is this guy? Is he representing Meryll or himself? Since when companies like Meryll let their employees write such outrageous letters?
    Reply to this Reply to original

  73. Bad Economics at Sun[ Go to top ]

    Capitalism is rule number 1 in a company, a point overlooked by many a Sun loving open source contributor.

    MS rules because they capitalize, Sun flounders because they suck at it.

    We all love Sun because Java is free and open, but Sun spent a gazillion on Java with no "Return on Investment". We all heard the story that Sun gives away Java to sell more Solaris servers. But Linux really messed that story all up, doh! Now Sun needs to get a "Return on Investment" for Java, but cannot back out of its free and open Java. Maybe they can pull a JBoss and start charging for Java documentation ;)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  74. Merrill Lynch and M$ (Was: Thanks to Sun! Time to move on..)[ Go to top ]

    I hate analysits. They have their own agendas. Frankly, if that analyst cared about Sun, he could find different ways to acknowledge his concerns. He could talk to Sun, or I do not know...something more "humane"...this just sounds so humiliatimg... makes me wanna puke...



    > PS: Who the heck is this guy? Is he representing Meryll or himself? Since when companies like Meryll let their employees write such outrageous letters?


    Here's a bit of fun

    type "Merrill Lynch" into www.microsoft.com search

    Merrill Lynch is one of Microsft's biggest pals (if I remember correctly, and if I am wrong in this regard then I apologise, but I think M$ did a large amount of work with Merrill Lynch pre .NET 1.0 final release) I thin kthey plastered a huge Merill Lynch .NET case study across msdn.

    see
    http://archive.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/02/13/020213hngates.xml

    See this rather interesting quote

    "More than 3 million developers are testing and deploying applications with early release versions of Visual Studio .Net and the .Net Framework, the largest testing group in the company's history, according to Microsoft. Major corporate customers including Merrill Lynch and cosmetics giant L'Oreal have already created Web-based applications for customers using the new tools."


    This does not look good for ML, in terms of it making quotes about companies that directly effect it's own infrastructure, especially when it detracts a company that acts as a competitor to a company that it has very close links with...

    ....................
    Reply to this Reply to original

  75. Java is beautiful???[ Go to top ]

    Sun deserves the credit for bringing us

    > one of the most BEAUTIFUL programming
    > languages ever designed. I know there
    > are many others. But, Java is a beauty!

    Can I have some of what you're smoking? Primitive types, boilerplate iterators (and much else), verbose garbage to satisfy the compiler but frustrate the developer? Beautiful? Practical, perhaps, but not beautiful.

    > Stop for a second and think about it.
    > Think of how revolutionary the ideas
    > were that even a giant like Microsoft
    > copied 90% of the language and is now
    > marketing it as C#.

    Java is evolutionary (from C++, and IMO a great evolutionary step), NOT revolutionary. And Java is now stealing the evolutionary steps C# introduced (which should have been in Java all along) for JDK 1.5. Thank heavens for C# (which I've never used), in that it forces Java to become more humane.

    > Think of the
    > excitement and market (and hype,
    > unfortunately) that Java brought to all
    > of us.

    Yes, lots of hype. And some quality, to be sure. But lots of hype.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  76. maybe Microsoft analysts :))[ Go to top ]

    :)
    Reply to this Reply to original

  77. Two Words:[ Go to top ]

    insider trading.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  78. Advertising ....[ Go to top ]

    I don't know about the U.S., but here in Canada there are a plethora of Microsoft and IBM television commercials. I don't remember ever seeing one from SUN.

    Now, I admire the fact that SUN doesn't stoop to the same level that IBM and SUN have, but let's face it ... they get the business, they are shaping their image with the public. The public includes executives of companies, their wives, sons, daughters, cousins, aunts, uncles, parents, etc..

    If SUN expects to survive on their reputation alone, we are all in trouble. IBM doesn't do it, and neither does Microsoft. If SUN wants to play with the big boys, they better start playing the same game.
    Reply to this Reply to original

  79. sell of sparc - bad idea, java - bad idea[ Go to top ]

    I am guessing a lot of folks aren't aware of the power
    and security of Sun Solaris MP 64 bit servers. For
    a medium to large company to go off unix MP SERVERS
    is rediculous. Who in their right mind would want to
    run core business apps on a virus laden doz intel. I don't
    think reduced instruction set processors are gonna go
    away anytime soon. Get a grip fella. Now I haven't kept
    up, but they are at around 25 or 50 cpus. Linux on the server
    side would be MUCH preferable to doz on the server side.

    For the desktop, I agree that maybe X86 is a better way to go
    for Solaris. Simple reason, x86 boxes are easier to buy and
    more plentiful. Harder to do when you don't have intel in your
    pocket like Doz does.

    As for Java, well, Sun has done something right. When you do
    something right and advance the community as Sun has done, you
    piss people off, BECAUSE, they didn't do it. You can really see
    it in the infantile, animal level jealousy, displayed by IBM
    and some stock analysts.
    Reply to this Reply to original