Joseph Ottinger was the Editor-in-Chief of JDJ and resigned a few weeks ago. "I resigned from JDJ for a number of reasons, and I'd like to explain why instead of leaving it as a mystery... I quit because I felt that JDJ was an ineffective medium, for non-technical reasons, and showed no signs of strengthening itself."
Read more at http://epesh.blog-city.com/read/645152.htm.
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Former Editor-In-Chief: Why I Resigned from JDJ (26 messages)
- Posted by: Joseph Ottinger
- Posted on: June 09 2004 11:32 EDT
Threaded Messages (26)
- Sad uphilll battle... by David O on June 10 2004 13:14 EDT
- Sad uphilll battle... by Robert Lowe on June 10 2004 13:54 EDT
- Sad uphilll battle... by Lars Fischer on June 10 2004 14:34 EDT
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Sad uphilll battle... by David O on June 10 2004 11:35 EDT
- WebLogic by Karl Banke on June 11 2004 03:27 EDT
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Sad uphilll battle... by Cameron Purdy on June 11 2004 08:02 EDT
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Sad uphilll battle... by Bill Burke on June 11 2004 12:28 EDT
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OT: JBoss by Cameron Purdy on June 11 2004 02:01 EDT
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How's this for mission critical... by Paul O'Connor on June 12 2004 01:44 EDT
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It's amazing... by Joseph Ottinger on June 12 2004 07:23 EDT
- It's natural... by Paul O'Connor on June 12 2004 12:55 EDT
- It's amazing... by Cameron Purdy on June 13 2004 10:43 EDT
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It's amazing... by Joseph Ottinger on June 12 2004 07:23 EDT
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OT: JBoss by Nikita Ivanov on June 12 2004 02:09 EDT
- OT: JBoss by Cameron Purdy on June 13 2004 10:22 EDT
- OT: JBoss by Fyodor Kupolov on July 14 2005 02:47 EDT
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How's this for mission critical... by Paul O'Connor on June 12 2004 01:44 EDT
- Grain of salt by aa aa on June 11 2004 08:48 EDT
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OT: JBoss by Cameron Purdy on June 11 2004 02:01 EDT
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Sad uphilll battle... by Bill Burke on June 11 2004 12:28 EDT
- Sad uphilll battle... by Manish Sharan on June 11 2004 11:24 EDT
- Sad uphilll battle... by Vinny Carpenter on June 13 2004 10:02 EDT
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Sad uphilll battle... by David O on June 10 2004 11:35 EDT
- Sad uphilll battle... by hasith yaggahavita on June 13 2004 07:42 EDT
- Sad uphilll battle... by Nathan Oen on June 13 2004 14:48 EDT
- I stopped reading JDJ years ago by Stu Charlton on February 03 2005 14:27 EST
- Former Editor-In-Chief: Why I Resigned from JDJ by shervin Sadeghi on June 10 2004 14:47 EDT
- Former Editor-In-Chief: Why I Resigned from JDJ by Masoud kalali on June 11 2004 04:18 EDT
- Good luck Joe! by Bill Burke on June 11 2004 12:32 EDT
- Open Source is taking over anyways by SF Desi on January 28 2005 17:11 EST
- Open Source is taking over anyways by Stu Charlton on February 03 2005 14:33 EST
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Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: David O
- Posted on: June 10 2004 13:14 EDT
- in response to Joseph Ottinger
I feel bad for Joseph. It sounds like the ones in trouble are Sys-Con. You can't let advertising dollars dictate your content direction. But you can't let the fashionable feel of the Open Source Software movement dictate your content direction either. I'm not for or against the open source movement, but I feel that all too often the reason people use a product isn't because it's technically *better* but because it's been labeled "Open Source". JBoss, IMHO, is technically better that WebLogic in many areas if not all (no I don't work for JBoss - I just use the server). On the other hand, while I don't think that Eclipse is better than JBuilder (in fact in many ways I think it's anemic compared to JBuilder) I always hear the *same* response from Eclipse users when I ask them why they use it instead of using JBuilder or something like it; "Because Eclipse is Open Source!" I'm worried Alan's point of view on the open source movement is tainting JDJ's direction as a technology magazine and turning it into a "philosophy magazine".
And as far as their compensation plan goes.. A free subscription is kind of a joke when you give them away already.... :-/ -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Robert Lowe
- Posted on: June 10 2004 13:54 EDT
- in response to David O
On the other hand, while I don't think that Eclipse is better than JBuilder (in fact in many ways I think it's anemic compared to JBuilder) I always hear the *same* response from Eclipse users when I ask them why they use it instead of using JBuilder or something like it; "Because Eclipse is Open Source!"
I'm an Eclipse convert, but that's not my experience at all. Most Eclipse users I know, myself included, use for reasons such as its excellent refactoring capabilities and CVS integration. While the price is obviously good too, the "open-source factor" is scarcely relevant.
- Rob
http://rmlowe.com/ -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Lars Fischer
- Posted on: June 10 2004 14:34 EDT
- in response to David O
JBoss, IMHO, is technically better that WebLogic in many areas if not all (no I don't work for JBoss - I just use the server).
Can you explain why JBoss in your opinion is technically better than WebLogic ? -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: David O
- Posted on: June 10 2004 23:35 EDT
- in response to Lars Fischer
In my experience working with Weblogic 7, 8, and JBoss - JBoss is faster, easier to manange, has easier to implement clustering, and more reliable hot-deploy features and is far less bug-ridden. The new bugs that get introduced between service packs in WebLogic have brought my projects to a grinding HALT until 'hot-fixes' are made available. While WLS 8 is *better* than 7 (7 is just garbage) I'm still not impressed - especially with licenses starting at 10k/CPU.JBoss, IMHO, is technically better that WebLogic in many areas if not all (no I don't work for JBoss - I just use the server).
Can you explain why JBoss in your opinion is technically better than WebLogic ?
And don't get me started about how BAD WebLogic support has gotten.
Of the commercially licensable projects out there - I think Borland Enterprise Server is probably the all-around best product for the money. But JBoss definitely has all of the beat in features vs. cost of ownership. -
WebLogic[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Karl Banke
- Posted on: June 11 2004 03:27 EDT
- in response to David O
In my experience working with Weblogic 7, 8, and JBoss - JBoss is faster, easier to manange, has easier to implement clustering, and more reliable hot-deploy features and is far less bug-ridden. The new bugs that get introduced between service packs in WebLogic have brought my projects to a grinding HALT until 'hot-fixes' are made available. While WLS 8 is *better* than 7 (7 is just garbage) I'm still not impressed - especially with licenses starting at 10k/CPU.And don't get me started about how BAD WebLogic support has gotten.Of the commercially licensable projects out there - I think Borland Enterprise Server is probably the all-around best product for the money. But JBoss definitely has all of the beat in features vs. cost of ownership.
Hm, quite strange. Having worked with WebLogic for the past 6 years or so I can only say that it is ridiculously easy to manage (as of version 7.x) has suprisingly few bugs and very powerful and easy to configre clustering. I have looked at the next-to-last major JBoss version and at least its clustering and configuration were clearly inferior. I used Inprise Application Server once (now a long time ago, though :-)) and it was a total desaster. Also from what I see in the commercial market place, BEA has clearly one the best support teams. -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Cameron Purdy
- Posted on: June 11 2004 08:02 EDT
- in response to David O
David: JBoss definitely has all of the beat in features vs. cost of ownership.
That depends on the size of the project. If you have a single application to deploy to a single server, and it doesn't have much load or uptime requirements, then free (Linux + Apache + Tomcat + JBoss + Postgres) is hard to beat.
As they say, YMMV, but on projects of any size or importance, a stable, scalable and manageable app server pays for itself many times over.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing! -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Bill Burke
- Posted on: June 11 2004 12:28 EDT
- in response to Cameron Purdy
David: JBoss definitely has all of the beat in features vs. cost of ownership.That depends on the size of the project. If you have a single application to deploy to a single server, and it doesn't have much load or uptime requirements, then free (Linux + Apache + Tomcat + JBoss + Postgres) is hard to beat.As they say, YMMV, but on projects of any size or importance, a stable, scalable and manageable app server pays for itself many times over.Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
All, take Cameron's comments with skeptism as JBossCache competes with Coherence and I know at least one customer we've stolen from him.
We have many paying customers running multiple apps on one JBoss instance and many customers running JBoss within a cluster with VERY HIGH loads and transaction rates to compare to any other commercial applicaiton server. And that is just paying customers... We have competed against and won against other vendors on numerous proposals on performance alone. Contact our sales and marketing department for detailed official information.
Bill -
OT: JBoss[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Cameron Purdy
- Posted on: June 11 2004 14:01 EDT
- in response to Bill Burke
Bill: All, take Cameron's comments with skeptism as JBossCache competes with Coherence and I know at least one customer we've stolen from him.
Bill, it's not "stolen." If someone goes with a different solution, it's called "competition." If you think this is something new, consider that -- for years now -- there have been free and open source solutions (not to mention commercial ones) that provide various caching features, going back to before our Coherence 1.0 release.
As far as taking my comments with skepticism, I would hope that people wouldn't just accept anything that I say as "the truth," anymore than they'd accept what anyone else would say. I'm just posting my opinion from what I've personally witnessed and experienced. I'd be glad to explain to you in private more details of why I hold the technical opinions that I do on JBoss.
Bill: We have many paying customers running multiple apps on one JBoss instance and many customers running JBoss within a cluster with VERY HIGH loads and transaction rates to compare to any other commercial applicaiton server.
Quite possibly, and it does appear that JBoss continues to improve. From my experience, and as I said above, I trust JBoss to work well in a certain type of situation. Since I have experience with real high-scale JBoss deployments (you could say "at least a bit more than two or three servers,") I feel at least qualified to state my own opinion. IMHO: JBoss, while a noble effort and "not bad for free" software, is simply not ready for mission critical software. OTOH, for development purposes and as a cost-effective way to deploy a single application that is not mission critical, it seems to be fine.
Bill: We have competed against and won against other vendors on numerous proposals on performance alone. Contact our sales and marketing department for detailed official information.
Congratulations -- honestly. I know you guys are working on performance issues; in fact, you (personally, IIRC) very quickly responded to a little one that I pointed out a while back. I look forward to seeing SPECjAppServer2004 results for JBoss, in addition to the J2EE certification.
Bill, there's a big difference between saying "JBoss sucks" and saying "JBoss is simply not ready for mission critical software." While you take tremendous pride in your work, and while you publish your code under LGPL, those things alone do not automatically qualify the JBoss server as "ready for mission critical software." Keep up your work, and someday you'll change my mind.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing! -
How's this for mission critical...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Paul O'Connor
- Posted on: June 12 2004 01:44 EDT
- in response to Cameron Purdy
I use JBoss to control robots that process jet engine parts...failure results in damage to $7-figure parts or death/injury to those around the robot...I've never had a single problem with it. I can't say the same thing for Weblogic. -
It's amazing...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Joseph Ottinger
- Posted on: June 12 2004 07:23 EDT
- in response to Paul O'Connor
Not to be greedy for attention or anything, but it's quite surprising how quickly the discussion focused on JBoss and BEA. I can't tell whether you've one-track minds focused on those two, or whether you've remarkably short attention spans. :) -
It's natural...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Paul O'Connor
- Posted on: June 12 2004 12:55 EDT
- in response to Joseph Ottinger
that when someone makes a categorical statement about a technology (or anything) and you know it's not true that you correct them, particularly when it is in a publig forum where it can affect the decision process of others. I could care less about JBoss, inc...but the free app server and related projects are excellent. -
It's amazing...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Cameron Purdy
- Posted on: June 13 2004 22:43 EDT
- in response to Joseph Ottinger
Joe: Not to be greedy for attention or anything, but it's quite surprising how quickly the discussion focused on JBoss and BEA. I can't tell whether you've one-track minds focused on those two, or whether you've remarkably short attention spans. :)
Joe, I guess you're just not controversial enough ;-) .. nothing stirs up controversy in this industry as arguing over IDEs and app servers.
Good luck to you. Are you leaving the "editor" world behind now, or should we expect to see you pop up elsewhere? BTW if you're at JavaOne, drop by and say 'hi.'
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing! -
OT: JBoss[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Nikita Ivanov
- Posted on: June 12 2004 14:09 EDT
- in response to Cameron Purdy
Bill, there's a big difference between saying "JBoss sucks" and saying "JBoss is simply not ready for mission critical software." While you take tremendous pride in your work, and while you publish your code under LGPL, those things alone do not automatically qualify the JBoss server as "ready for mission critical software." Keep up your work, and someday you'll change my mind.
One of those moments when I can totally side with Cameron.
Most of the people I know (granted, very few of them develop in open source) have unambiguous and clear perception: if its open source it is a crap. Now, there are known and pleasant exceptions to this rule: Hibernate, Ant, Junit, and some. And I would second Camerons opinion that mere LGPL or just open sourcing something doesnt make it any better than any other products. In fact, its been argued that loss of conceptual integrity of the product due to nature of open source development badly offsets any gains from wide-spread testing. Indeed, if product is poorly designed no amount of testing will help.
Coming back to JBoss I agree that it is a decent educational product for single server or small cluster (2-3 boxes) installation with small to medium load at best. In this situation it has great value and I believe that there is a substantial market for such deployments.
But its enough to look at JavaGroups source code or JBosss transaction manager implementation (check out CVS) to understand that people at JBoss have a lot to learn just in basic programming To be fair we should be clear that we indeed can look at the source of JBoss which is not the case for the most of commercial software, and so Im not singling out the JBoss specifically but just replying on the topic.
Regards,
Nikita Ivanov. -
OT: JBoss[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Cameron Purdy
- Posted on: June 13 2004 22:22 EDT
- in response to Nikita Ivanov
Nikita: Most of the people I know (granted, very few of them develop in open source) have unambiguous and clear perception: if its open source it is a crap.
I don't really differentiate between open source and commercial products in this manner -- I think you would have no problem showing that a hefty percentage of software is (as you so eloquently put it) crap. I think that -- in general -- software quality has not increased in "the Internet age," and in some ways it has become both more difficult to use and more buggy. In this respect, open source has a higher hurdle to jump over, because you can download the source and see the problems for yourself (your references were one example.) Open source also has a lower barrier to entry (e.g. access to a browser and sourceforge.net) and no economic threshold (e.g. projects are still available years after they were abandoned in a 70% complete state,) both of which act to dilute the perception of quality that is built up by well-managed high-quality open source projects.
Peace,
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing! -
OT: JBoss[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Fyodor Kupolov
- Posted on: July 14 2005 14:47 EDT
- in response to Nikita Ivanov
But its enough to look at JavaGroups source code or JBosss transaction manager implementation (check out CVS) to understand that people at JBoss have a lot to learn just in basic programming To be fair we should be clear that we indeed can look at the source of JBoss which is not the case for the most of commercial software, and so Im not singling out the JBoss specifically but just replying on the topic
You'd better have a look at OracleAS JAZN(JAAS) implementation - that's a reeeal mess...:) It's easier to face with JBoss problems than closed-source products, e.g. the above mentioned one.
Regards,
Theodore Kupolov -
Grain of salt[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: aa aa
- Posted on: June 11 2004 20:48 EDT
- in response to Bill Burke
I'm sad to write that at this point I trust very little of what any associate of JBoss has to say. -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Manish Sharan
- Posted on: June 11 2004 11:24 EDT
- in response to David O
In my experience working with Weblogic 7, 8, and JBoss - JBoss is faster, easier to manange, has easier to implement clustering, and more reliable hot-deploy features and is far less bug-ridden. The new bugs that get introduced between service packs in WebLogic have brought my projects to a grinding HALT until 'hot-fixes' are made available. While WLS 8 is *better* than 7 (7 is just garbage) I'm still not impressed - especially with licenses starting at 10k/CPU.And don't get me started about how BAD WebLogic support has gotten.Of the commercially licensable projects out there - I think Borland Enterprise Server is probably the all-around best product for the money. But JBoss definitely has all of the beat in features vs. cost of ownership.
I find your assertion quite hard to believe. I am working on WLS 7 with Service Pack 2 -- I haven't seen any dire problems like you had. I also work with Jboss3x -- and its not as wonderful as you make it out to be -- especially when it comes to JMS. If I am not mistaken, even Resin beats Jboss 3x hands down in performance. If 10k/cpu is an issue , head for Resin or Pramati or Borland. -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Vinny Carpenter
- Posted on: June 13 2004 22:02 EDT
- in response to David O
What?? JBoss is better than WebLogic? JBoss is faster and easier to manage? Are you kidding? I hope you are as I've been a WebLogic user since 1999, right after the BEA acquisition and it is a rock solid application server that runs circles around JBoss. We use JBoss at our company for small applications and it just sucks - Mostly we use JBoss to get a better negotiating position with BEA when we buy additional licenses of WebLogic or renegotiate our contracts. I will agree that v7.0 of WebLogic had many issues, but I would take v7.0 over JBoss anytime.
In my experience working with Weblogic 7, 8, and JBoss - JBoss is faster, easier to manange, has easier to implement clustering, and more reliable hot-deploy features and is far less bug-ridden. The new bugs that get introduced between service packs in WebLogic have brought my projects to a grinding HALT until 'hot-fixes' are made available. While WLS 8 is *better* than 7 (7 is just garbage) I'm still not impressed - especially with licenses starting at 10k/CPU.And don't get me started about how BAD WebLogic support has gotten.Of the commercially licensable projects out there - I think Borland Enterprise Server is probably the all-around best product for the money. But JBoss definitely has all of the beat in features vs. cost of ownership.JBoss, IMHO, is technically better that WebLogic in many areas if not all (no I don't work for JBoss - I just use the server).
Can you explain why JBoss in your opinion is technically better than WebLogic ?
Cheers
--Vinny -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: hasith yaggahavita
- Posted on: June 13 2004 07:42 EDT
- in response to David O
On the other hand, while I don't think that Eclipse is better than JBuilder (in fact in many ways I think it's anemic compared to JBuilder) I always hear the *same* response from Eclipse users when I ask them why they use it instead of using JBuilder or something like it; "Because Eclipse is Open Source!"
I dont see much point of comparing JBuilder with Eclipse framework.
Eclipse is an open source framework not just an java IDE. We have successfully built a Large scale Commecial application with Eclipse framework.
But If u compare Eclipse JDE with JBuilder, I can say
Many Eclipse plugin projects are being developed and will take over JBuilder capabilities very soon.
Simple workspace resource (files, folders etc...) of eclipse manipulation is far more better than cumbersome JBuilder IDE.
Hasith Yaggahavita
(Sri Lanka) -
Sad uphilll battle...[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Nathan Oen
- Posted on: June 13 2004 14:48 EDT
- in response to David O
... I always hear the *same* response from Eclipse users when I ask them why they use it instead of using JBuilder or something like it; "Because Eclipse is Open Source!" ....
I use both products, JBuilder and Eclipse. And I believe that the reason people uses Eclipse instead of JBuilder is the same reason I dumped JBuilder and use Eclipse: it's because you get your project done with Eclipse without paying a hefty price tag NOT because just an "Open Source" -
I stopped reading JDJ years ago[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Stu Charlton
- Posted on: February 03 2005 14:27 EST
- in response to David O
And this essay seems to confirm all of the reasons I had for stopping to read it a good 2-3 years ago. The shilling, the light technical content, and the anti-BEA stance all combined to generate disappointment in what I used to respect as the #1 Java magazine.... Ah well. -
Former Editor-In-Chief: Why I Resigned from JDJ[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: shervin Sadeghi
- Posted on: June 10 2004 14:47 EDT
- in response to Joseph Ottinger
Let me know something, Whats wrong with this complicated philosophy that Open Source is belong to everyone !!! and people want to discuss it. Off course I am willing to read article about JBoss, Hibernate, Tomcate rather than "come and buy me please I can be more complicated(EJB) so you need more training(certifications ,thicker books)"... I just wonder if these open source wasn't around how many years of my life was going for learning. -
Former Editor-In-Chief: Why I Resigned from JDJ[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Masoud kalali
- Posted on: June 11 2004 04:18 EDT
- in response to shervin Sadeghi
Let me know something, Whats wrong with this complicated philosophy that Open Source is belong to everyone !!! and people want to discuss it. Off course I am willing to read article about JBoss, Hibernate, Tomcate rather than "come and buy me please I can be more complicated(EJB) so you need more training(certifications ,thicker books)"... I just wonder if these open source wasn't around how many years of my life was going for learning.
Your view about Opensource is respectable but about commerical Products ?.
having some sort of certification from Sun or IBM or ... means that you are a world calss developer / architect its not wasting of time.
Jonas ,Jboss ,... are good Websphere Is great.
In java technology field more books are published for Opensource Stuff rather than commerical products with same (better or not better) functionality,AFAIK. check the amazon book store.
EJB is complicated for complicated mission, hibernate has its own advantages and probably disadvantages (having sql like QL is good but where is the specification?). Also advertising of complanies doesen't mean that how EJB is. -
Good luck Joe![ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Bill Burke
- Posted on: June 11 2004 12:32 EDT
- in response to Joseph Ottinger
Good luck Joe. I appreciated your skeptism, fairness, and non-biased opinions. I hope somebody else picks you up and we see you in print again real soon.
Bill Burke
JBoss Inc. -
Open Source is taking over anyways[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: SF Desi
- Posted on: January 28 2005 17:11 EST
- in response to Joseph Ottinger
Regardless of comments on overweighing open source, 2005 will be the year where it breaks into the enterprise. This is also the year we should see open source JDKs and once Java gets end-to-end under open source, there will be better publications than JDJ around.
Veekay
http://linux-tech.blogspot.com -
Open Source is taking over anyways[ Go to top ]
- Posted by: Stu Charlton
- Posted on: February 03 2005 14:33 EST
- in response to SF Desi
Regardless of comments on overweighing open source, 2005 will be the year where it breaks into the enterprise.
LOL. "The year of open source" was 2003, and then 2004, and ... now it's 2005.
Open source *is* in the enterprise. The source licesne of a solution is only one factor in deciding on infrastructure. And it's not one of the main ones.