Ahh patent law and technology. It really needs to be revisited doesn't it? The patent office makes money, yet that money has been stolen from it, which means that it can't fund internal changes.

Kodak has won a law suit with Sun, in which they claim that Java infringes on a patent that came from Wang. This patent covers "helper applications".

Kodak Co. will return to U.S. District Court next week to seek $1 billion in damages from Sun Microsystems Inc. now that a federal jury has ruled in its favor in a dispute over the Java computer language.

The jury decided in Rochester on Friday that Sun infringed on technology belonging to Kodak when it developed and introduced Java more than a decade ago. The computer language is now used heavily by software developers, on the Internet and in computer schools.

The patents describe a method by which a program can "ask for help" from another application to carry out certain computer-oriented functions. That's generally similar to the way Java operates, according to Kodak and other experts.

Ironically, the verdict came a day after Sun introduced a new version of Java. The company and some analysts hailed it as one of the most significant upgrades since Java's introduction a decade ago.

Sun denied Kodak's patent infringement claims. The company argued in court that Java did not infringe on the Kodak patents, and even if it did, the patents were invalid.

The Silicon Valley giant on Friday said it would "put on a vigorous defense" in the next phase of the trial, in which the jury will hear testimony to help it determine how much Kodak should be paid. That phase begins sometime next week.

Kodak in pre-trial documents indicated it would ask for $1.06 billion in lump-sum royalties – a figure that represents half of Sun's operating profit from the sales of computer servers and storage equipment between January 1998 and June 2001. The argument: Java provides the engine for such computer equipment. Sun executives have publicly estimated that Java is a "key factor in 90 percent of Sun's sales," Kodak said.

What's at stake

Kodak will be asking a federal jury to award more than $1 billion in damages in connection with a patent lawsuit. Analysts say the money could help provide a financial cushion as Kodak shifts from chemical to computerized imaging.

Kodak wins Java lawsuit

What a disgraceful verdict, and what a woolly definition of the infringement! I wonder if Kodak will go after MS over similar infringements in .Net as well?

I would think they would have to.

This is really baseless, i am sure SUN is unique in its innovation and do not theft anything from anyone during innovation of JAVA. what the patent is describing, its there in most of the languages.Better Koadak/All world should be thankful to SUN for innovation of JAVA.

This nonesense very much reminds me of a ridiculous scene from this very recently released movie, what was it called? Ah the "Soul Plane".... You must be really out of any luck on making money if you have to resort to sueing somebody over this vague patent.

Its a shame that kodak try to pinch money from Sun After 10 years later.
We have our support ad wish fro sun and Java

I think Kodak will go on my personal boicot list. Next time I buy anything photo related first I make sure it's not Kodak...

My prevoius message was an imprudent first response out of passion.
I would like to withdraw my statement and my message to be removed.

To boicot Kodak products alltogether is a good idea to show industry support. Buy Fuji instead.

FYI: It also means to boicot any business that franchises Kodak photo processing and equipment such a Walgreens photo labs.

This is really a shameful business model. Just like SCO!

What a nightmare. This is very sad news. I wish there were something I could do instead of sitting here on the sidelines watching an innocent party get lynched.

Just wait 'til my patent for "use of electrons for communication of information, including textual, audio, video and data" is granted ..

p.s. </sarcasm>

Peace,

Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters

The proof that anything can be patented:

click here

Regards,
Henrique Steckelberg

It looks like kodak has patient for the wheel too, they are great inventors:
click here

Even better ..

A patent for swinging on a swing.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters

Here is another hilarious one (haven't read it though).

Cameron Purdy's "Java compatible object oriented component data structure"
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2FB12179

Even better ..A patent for swinging on a swing.Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters

I wonder if anyone has patented breathing? Hmmm.

Method for Swinging, Filed: November 17, 2000

I tried to swing side-to-side 30 years ago. I still remember it wasn't that pleasant as swinging forward and back. If you are being sued this patent doesn't stand in court. But to be on the safe side, if you know you'll make money, get the license. You may get sued because you got that brilliant idea while side-to-side swinging and you'll be sorry.

Question: If a large company patents your idea that you are using for a long time, can they prevent you from using it in your own products?

My next digital camera will not be Kodak.

The proof that anything can be patented:click hereRegards,Henrique Steckelberg

Seems to be the method Donald Trump is using. Does he own the patent?

It appears that this patent is just for a side to side swinging with chains attached to the seat. It expands a bit to include the side to side front to back (oval) motion too. I wonder if someone has the patent for the front to back motion?

This is only the opening volley in a 3 set match. The first thing a company does when sued for patent infringment is counter sue to have the patent invalidated. A patent is like a chess pawn-- by exercising its patent against another, kodak is risking losing the patent itself. All Sun needs is to find one reference (other patent or printed publication anywhere in the world) describing the claimed invention that predates the patent's start date, and the claim will be considered anticipated by prior art and invalid.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?B26732279

-Ravi

After all it does not seem not so stupid after the Kodak's success and the state of US patent law!

Just wait 'til my patent for "use of electrons for communication of information, including textual, audio, video and data" is granted ..p.s. </sarcasm>Peace,Cameron PurdyTangosol, Inc.Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters

I am designing a "conversational" AI tutor application.But someone has already filed a patent for this concept.
(1)in one sense, any HTML form submit is "conversational."
(2)in another sense, only 10% of any homo sapein population are "conversationalists"
such wide-ranging,all-inclusive patents are foolish.
kodak shouldnt have been favored.

Considering how many new patent applications exist I could become the richest person on earth. If I could patent the patent process. Oh wait the government already did that.

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.", Ecclesiastes 1:9

Stop Fascism.

If you don't want other people to have your ideas don't share them. For example, a keeper of sheep knowning about breeding and not sharing the idea with tyrants.

"The patents describe a method by which a program can 'ask for help' from another application to carry out certain computer-oriented functions"

Wouldn't this definition cover also all the thousand apps, OS, etc which dinamically load dll/shared libraries to do some task?

"The patents describe a method by which a program can 'ask for help' from another application to carry out certain computer-oriented functions"Wouldn't this definition cover also all the thousand apps, OS, etc which dinamically load dll/shared libraries to do some task?

I am not sure it covers all applications, my great programs do not need any help, but it covers web a browser, it 'asks for help' from my cool javascript program.

Unfortunately what's a problem for techies and innovation in America is an opportunity for the rest of the world.

Other countries don't have to obey any of our increasingly ridiculous patents.

Well... I see European Union moving toward the same brainless way... software patent law is comming, see http://swpat.ffii.org :/

Just came across this discussion.

Other countries don't have to obey any of our increasingly ridiculous patents.

Actually, the US government (and some major US corporations) are working hard to get the US vision of patent rights "respected" throughout the world. They are especially trying to do this in the second biggest market in the world - the EU.

That said, there's a lot of people in Europe very unhappy about the entire concept of patenting software.


PJ Murray

CodeFutures Software

Java Code Generation for Data Persistence

Just checking the date--no it's October, not April...

The patents describe a method by which a program can "ask for help" from another application to carry out certain computer-oriented functions.

How is that more relevant to Java than to a host of technologies that interoperate?

Presumably this patent would also cover any discovery of web services, for example :-)

This is great news! What a wonderful example of how incredibly stupid patents are. It will be of great help in explaining why the EU should not have such laws.

Thanks Kodak!

Richard: "What a wonderful example of how incredibly stupid patents are."

Yes, agree.

But with that said I am happy that Sun got a dos of it's own medicine! ;)

Thank you God!

When has Sun ever sued a company for violating a stupid patent? Yes, Sun sued Microsoft but that was over a contract dispute which is VERY different from a patent dispute. Kodak's business is in now way suffering due to Java. So, in what way is Sun getting a dose of their own medicine?

Once again Rolf is ringing Microsoft's bells only to be seen as the fool.

Sun lawsuit was even more ridiculous IMO. There is not only the Patent Office but the whole American juridical system that stand trial.

Regards
the fool

When has Sun ever sued a company for violating a stupid patent? Yes, Sun sued Microsoft but that was over a contract dispute which is VERY different from a patent dispute. Kodak's business is in now way suffering due to Java. So, in what way is Sun getting a dose of their own medicine?Once again Rolf is ringing Microsoft's bells only to be seen as the fool.

Thank you!! Well said! Of course we expect to see comments from people who love the bad guy. There's one bad apple in every bushel.

I think at the very least this demonstrates the limits of using a lay jury to decide a complicated software issue.

I think a jury would also be unduly influenced by the fact that Kodak is a very recognisable "family" brand, whereas Sun - if recognisable at all - would be nothing more than a faceless corporation.

I think a jury would also be unduly influenced by the fact that Kodak is a very recognisable "family" brand, whereas Sun - if recognisable at all - would be nothing more than a faceless corporation.

The suit was also brought in Rochester .. that is home base for Kodak. It wouldn't have flown in San Jose, for example.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters

Kodak was a major pride of Rochester and still contributes $2.3 billion to the local economy - I'm sure many jurists considered the financial impact as part of their decision. Sun will need to move the appeal to another jurisdiction for this to be overturned.

For more on shrinking Kodak and the local impact (from 2003-12-14), http://www.democratandchronicle.com/news/extra/kodak/12141I2L0RB_business.shtml


From a former Rochestarian,

Scott Severtson
Senior Architect
Centare Group Ltd.

If the software industry has a future -this is it.
Java is overly dominated by Socialist ideas and only SUN can do anything about it.

Perhaps, this will wake SUN up to the fact that their future and the future of Java depends upon them excercising their copyright and IP rights!

SUN needs to charge for Java and defend its IP rights against Open Source dilution/infringement.
Matt

Matt,

As usual, I see you don't understand what open source actually means. Nor do I think you understand what capitalism actually means either. It's not synonymous with a patent system run amok.

Thanks
Ray

If the software industry has a future -this is it.Java is overly dominated by Socialist ideas and only SUN can do anything about it.Perhaps, this will wake SUN up to the fact that their future and the future of Java depends upon them excercising their copyright and IP rights!SUN needs to charge for Java and defend its IP rights against Open Source dilution/infringement.Matt

Just sent the following to Kodak. Let them know how you feel...


Dear sirs,

As of your lawsuit with Sun regarding the US Patent on "helper applications", you have probably done yourself the greatest disservice you could possibly have, maybe apart from building your cameras out of radioactive plutonium.

Any person with the slightest sense of intelligence and decency will realize that the patent is just a by-product of a broken patent process and using it in the way you have done, will cause an irreparable damage to your reputation.

In the best-case scenario, you'll lose one customer per dollar "earned" from this. In the end, I hope you think it was worth it...

Sincerely

/Par Eklund

In what cave have you been living?!?!

There is no socialism crap on Open Source. It is quite the opposite: it is a far more competitive and efficient development model.

You will have a hard time trying to find a software product that doesn't have a single open-sourced library within. In fact, any serious software product nowadays has tons of open-sourced libraries.

The fact is that the current business model for software companies goes against any reasoning (read the EULAs): you pay, but the software has no obligation to run as expected, to server any purpose, etc etc etc. To rely on a software which source code is hidden is a stupid nonsense behaviour widely accepted (we are all lemmings), as any 3 years old kid can tell. It has NOTHING to do with money, as licenses can be sold (open-source does not mean free) and profit can be gained as well.

Wake up, caveman.

Insanity.

Firstly, this is nowhere near finished - its certain to go to appeal, which could take years.

Secondly, I would imagine this would apply to other Java implementations, not just Sun. If Sun did finally lose this (which I suspect is unlikely) in a few years time, this patent would threaten IBM, HP and many other companies. Kodak attempting to prosecute IBM would be an interesting and highly one-sided battle. I think the most likely outcome is a ruling of the invalidity of the patents; if not that, then a buy-out of Kodak by IBM or some other vendor for whom Java is a key technology.

What the ****?

What about Microsoft's OLE technology? Or device drivers and resident programs, that were available in the times of DOS? Whatever it is, I've heard bullshit, but this...

What's even more amazing, is how stupid the patents and the court can be... And where did they get this $1 billion figure?

**** kodak anyway.

Article says jury was in Rochester. Kodak HQ is in Rochester....go figure. What a waste of time and money. No wonder Kodak's in the dumpster.

Have just read the patent. Surely any OO language falls foul of this ridiculous patent? Kodak should never have been allowed to patent it.

Paul

[b]Let's boycott Kodak![/b]

As a minor action - why not let them know how you feel.

http://www.kodak.com/cgi-bin/global/en/service/contact/feedback.cgi?conf=/global/include/en/service/contact/contact.conf

Hello statically linked big-as-my-mothers-ass binaries.

Hello Borland Delphi.

(Goodbye Internet? Sure. A web browser is not of much use without web servers. And a web browser really needs help from the server to display content...)

Goodbye stupid-as-f*ck world.

Looks like FirstGov will need to take their web site down, they are using PATENTED technology!

http://www.firstgov.gov/fgsearch/index.jsp <-- *JSP*!!

These are the original patents that were filed by Wang. Lots of similarities with JAF. I think OLE is was based on similar ideas.
Stupid? Sure. Baseless? Probably not.
I wouldn't count on the verdict being overturned just yet. The damages will probably be much less, though.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5261080.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5226161.html

http://news.com.com/Kodak+sues+Sun+over+aspects+of+Java/2100-1001_3-836322.html?tag=nl

They're all crooks. Sun is patenting pricing per employee...Unbelievable

http://news.com.com/Suns+Schwartz+guns+for+patent+glories/2100-1014_3-5390714.html

Althought they claim they're going to donate money generated to charity.

The patents describe a method by which a program can "ask for help" from another application to carry out certain computer-oriented functions.

This sounds like mime helpers in a brower to me ... the central concept under attack seems to be the notion of extensible applications, though of course the patent can only cover specific approaches via which extension occurs (and not the idea alone).

you have the patent system to blame.

In Brazil we don´t have this kind of patents you can register your software with a institute to solve legal issues, but you don´t have the ownership for the idea just for your implementation.

The same in Italy

In Brazil we don´t have this kind of patents you can register your software with a institute to solve legal issues, but you don´t have the ownership for the idea just for your implementation.

Nope, we do have patent laws for software. Check http://www.inpi.gov.br/legislacao/conteudo/leisoft.htm

Regards,

Leonardo Bueno

Brazilian laws are different (as far as I know): you can patent a product (say, only MS can sell Windows), but you can't patent an idea (the concept of an operating system). This patent madness is completely ridiculous.

>Nope, we do have patent laws for software. Check http://www.inpi.gov.br/legislacao/conteudo/leisoft.htm

>Regards,Leonardo Bueno

a method by which excess gases are collected in the lower intestines and expelled at regular intervals to regulate the balance of an organism made from water, carbon and other minerals.

the patent system needs to be fixed some how. Not that I now how, but it needs to be fixed.

This ruling is great. Now we can complete the off-shoring of all the executive/management positions of the US software companies as well to places which don't have asinine legal systems. Just think how much this will save in international phone calls, getting up early for conference calls and all those language difficulties. Well done Kodak!!! I just have to work out whether I prefer Eastern Europe of Bangalore.

Well...then logically ALL INTREPETER languages/frameworks must be fined by KODAK!
including .Net's CLR with the wlole set of pluggable languages like C#,Basic,FoxPro and so on...

C'mon don't you have common sence? How can you patent such a basic/fundamental idea?

This nothing more than I would expect from the Country that invented the blame & litigate culture.

No comments :(

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5206951.html

Integration of data between typed objects by mutual, direct invocation between object managers corresponding to object types.

Abstract:
An object based data processing system including an extensible set of object types and a corresponding set of "object managers" wherein each object manager is a program for operating with the data stored in a corresponding type of object. The object managers in general support at least a standard set of operations. Any program can effect performance of these standard operations on objects of any type by making an "invocation" request. In response to an invocation request, object management services (which are available to all object managers) identifies and invokes an object manager that is suitable for performing the requested operation on the specified type of data. A mechanism is provided for linking data from one object into another object. An object catalog includes both information about objects and about links between objects. Data interchange services are provided for communicating data between objects of different types, using a set of standard data interchange formats. A matchmaker facility permits two processes that are to cooperate in a data interchange operation identify each other and to identify data formats they have in common. A facility is provided for managing shared data "resources". Customized versions of resources can be created and co-exist with standard resources. A resource retrieval function determines whether a customized or a standard resource is to be returned in response to each request for a resource.


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5421012.html

Multitasking computer system for integrating the operation of different application programs which manipulate data objects of different types

Abstract:
An object based data processing system including an extensible set of object types and a corresponding set of "object managers" wherein each object manager is a program for operating with the data stored in a corresponding type of object. The object managers in general support at least a standard set of operations. Any program can effect performance of these standard operations on objects of any type by making an "invocation" request. In response to an invocation request, object management services (which are available to all object managers) identifies and invokes an object manager that is suitable for performing the requested operation on the specified type of data. A mechanism is provided for linking data from one object into another object. A object catalog includes both information about objects and about links between objects. Data interchange services are provided for communicating data between objects of different types, using a set of standard data interchange formats. A matchmaker facility permits two processes that are to cooperate in a data interchange operation identify each other and to identify data formats they have in common. A facility is provided for managing shared data "resources". Customized versions of resources can be created and co-exist with standard resources. A resource retrieval function determines whether a customized or a standard resource is to be returned in response to each request for a resource.


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5226161.html

Integration of data between typed data structures by mutual direct invocation between data managers corresponding to data types

Abstract:
An object based data processing system including an extensible set of object types and a corresponding set of "object managers" wherein each object manager is a program for operating with the data stored in a corresponding type of object. The object managers in general support at least a standard set of operations. Any program can effect performance of these standard operations on objects of any type by making an "invocation" request. In response to an invocation request, object management services (which are available to all object managers) identifies and invokes an object manager that is suitable for performing the requested operation on the specified type of data. A mechanism is provided for linking data from one object into another object. A object catalog includes both information about objects and about links between objects. Data interchange services are provided for communicating data between objects of different types, using a set of standard data interchange formats. A matchmaker facility permits two processes that are to cooperate in a data interchange operation identify each other and to identify data formats they have in common. A facility is provided for managing shared data "resources". Customized versions of resources can be created and co-exist with standard resources. A resource retrieval function determines whether a customized or a standard resource is to be returned in response to each request for a resource.

OO ideas started in 1962: http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~kristen/FORSKNINGSDOK_MAPPE/F_OO_start.html

"This separated the compiiler-extensor part of the system from the end-user. In Irons' approach, ... . Somewhere in all of this, I realized that the bridge to an object-based system could be in terms of each object as a syntax directed interpreter of messages sent to it. In one fell swoop this would unify object-oriented semantics with the ideal of a completely extensible language. The mental image was one of separate computers sending requests to other computers that had to be accepted and understood by the receivers beofre anything could happen. In todya's terms every object would be a server offering services whose deployment and discretion depended entirely on the server's notion of relationsip with the servee.."

http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/EarlyHistoryST.html

and this was in '69.

Surely if we are talking about object managers offering services that other managers use in order to help them do their own jobsa huge raft of things come into play, toher than just languages and runtimes - CORBA, RPC, DCE even......

And how they can allege to take profits from servers and hardware - perhaps from say J2EE licensee profits, but hardware!

--Calum

Reported today:
Kodak to shed 600 UK jobs

Should help to pay for all those lawyers.

Me, cynical?
Kit

I think this is tactic is in the last chapter of "the idiots guide to running a multinational company". When it looks like you're about to go bust, have a crack at pulling in some money from patents. It's the same tactic been used by SCO isn't it?

Since the mass adoption of digital camera's, Kodak must be *really* struggling.

Since the mass adoption of digital camera's, Kodak must be *really* struggling.

Replace "digital cameras" with "internet servers" and
"Kodak" with "SUN".

Companies would prefer to compete without enforcing their IP in court-but they will definitely do it as a last resort.

Hopefully, for SUN, it won't be their final gasp.

Matt

The patents describe a method by which a program can "ask for help" from another application to carry out certain computer-oriented functions.


The jury MUST have been comprised with 6yr. olds from the local kindergarden.

This is just pure foolishness that a company can win 1bill. with as little evidence as this. "a method by which a program can "ask for help" from another application to carry out certain computer-oriented functions".

Sounds like
collaborating objects to me. This can be done in ANY language. Watch out AT&T Bell Labs, you're next, after all you DID create C++

"When code is outlawed, only outlaws will have code."

It's not so much that code will be outlawed, rather that we'll all be criminals for inadvertantly infringing on asinine patents. "Keep that worthless corporation afloat there, fella. You'll need to tank it when they come knocking on your door..." Or just relocate where there's less litigation.

This is a big part of the promise of open source, to me anyway. The more code we write, the more prior art that is generated, and the less problems that we all have in the future.

I like that a Rochester Jury in the home town of Kodak, don't you think that is a little unfair?