Malcolm Davis responded in "Why are you uninstalling NetBeans IDE?" with a list of complaints about the IDE, including its use of fonts, the help system, key bindings, and autocompletion. He also adds constructive recommendations to how NetBeans can overcome the problems he points out.

Of course, every editor has drawbacks. What do you not like about various IDEs? What would you consider the solution to the problems you see?

He does not use the excellent IDE because he does not like the fonts...

He does not use the excellent IDE because he does not like the fonts...

... and the help system, and the key bindings, and how it's autocompletion works...

He does not use the excellent IDE because he does not like the fonts...

... and the help system, and the key bindings, and how it's autocompletion works...

The help system mainly due to the fact that he could not find how to adjust the fonts ;-)

face it 90% of this blog was a rant, that he did not like that he did not have antialiased fonts.
The article praised the features and ranted 90% of the time around the fonts, which is pointless.

.. and ranted 90% of the time around the fonts, which is pointless.

No pun intended ;-)

The help system mainly due to the fact that he could not find how to adjust the fonts ;-)face it 90% of this blog was a rant, that he did not like that he did not have antialiased fonts.The article praised the features and ranted 90% of the time around the fonts, which is pointless.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I read the article and I can't find anything that suggests his problem with the help system was down to the fonts. He complains about the fact that the help window opens in different places on the screen each time, he complains that the "red dots" in the search results don't serve any useful function, he complains that the "hit numbers" are not aligned, and he complains about a basic lack of features in the help system. What does any of that have to do with fonts?

He does not use the excellent IDE because he does not like the fonts...

... and the help system, and the key bindings, and how it's autocompletion works...

The help system mainly due to the fact that he could not find how to adjust the fonts ;-)face it 90% of this blog was a rant, that he did not like that he did not have antialiased fonts.The article praised the features and ranted 90% of the time around the fonts, which is pointless.

Well, I haven't done a statistical analysis of content, but I can understand why such little things can add up to a degree where he might not like them. Just because you either tolerate them or don't encounter the same problem or know how to do the things he doesn't know -- this doesn't make it less of a problem to fix.

Even if it's a rant, it's a public one - which makes it something for IDE maintainers to consider.

-- this doesn't make it less of a problem to fix.

With him or the IDE?

-- this doesn't make it less of a problem to fix.

With him or the IDE?

Well, assuming the problem is instantly on the part of the consumer - especially when said consumer backs up the reasons he finds something unworkable and offers solutions - is a great way to make sure you have fewer consumers.

-- this doesn't make it less of a problem to fix.

With him or the IDE?

Well, assuming the problem is instantly on the part of the consumer - especially when said consumer backs up the reasons he finds something unworkable and offers solutions - is a great way to make sure you have fewer consumers.

Other than the help system, which in my book is not a major issue when using an IDE, since I already know what I want, and it won't be too long to find, I can't see anything else credible of fixing. Fonts?, I can't imagine too many people care. Red dots? Let's see, next he'll say the tabs need to be 1 millimeter shorter.

Ilya

Fonts?, I can't imagine too many people care.

Neither does the NetBeans team, and this is one of the many reasons why NetBeans' adoption is so slow.

Although in their defense, it's more a Swing problem than a NetBeans one. I can't believe we will have to wait for Mustang to get proper anti-aliased fonts.

This is one certain drawback of Swing: since they emulate the look and feel of the host platform, they are always lagging behind and wasting time reinventing the new widgets that Microsoft (and others) keep inventing at each iteration of their OS.

Swing UI's are always subtly at odds with what users expect: for that reason: file dialog, not respecting the single/double click setting and other preferences, etc...

--
Cedric

Fonts?, I can't imagine too many people care.

Neither does the NetBeans team, and this is one of the many reasons why NetBeans' adoption is so slow.

I do. But contrary to that guy, I hate antialiased fonts, they hurt my eyes, everything is blurry. I always turn antialiasing off. This works for me, because I am on Windows. Microsoft (as well as Apple) spent big bucks on designing fonts that are readable, scalable and nice to look at. I never tried to run Swing apps on Linux (the farthest I went in my Linux experience was starting Firefox on fresh installation of Ubuntu), but I presume that Swing uses the window manager's fonts. In this case I can understand this guy's rant: Linux fonts look ugly when not antialiased, marginally better but too out-of-focus when antialiased. Non-latin fonts are even worse.

Instead of spending time on imitating widgets from different OSes and window managers, Sun could join Eclipse and massage SWT. They also could spend money on creating some nice fonts for Linux. Netbeans or not, but ugly Linux fonts is the major reason why I still use Win2K.

but ugly Linux fonts is the major reason why I still use Win2K

http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/

but ugly Linux fonts is the major reason why I still use Win2K

http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/

These are Microsoft's fonts. Microsoft cancelled the core fonts program. I don't think it is proper to leech Truetype fonts from another OS. Linux is supported by big bucks including IBM, so why not spend some money for good use and improve brand identity? Windows has its fonts, while Mac has its own, they make these systems look different. Windows fonts makes Linux look like Windows, and makes Linux users look like beggars.

Instead of spending time on imitating widgets from different OSes and window managers, Sun could join Eclipse and massage SWT. They also could spend money on creating some nice fonts for Linux. Netbeans or not, but ugly Linux fonts is the major reason why I still use Win2K.

Sun won't be doing this, because it goes against their "run anywhere" motto. SWT is only good on Windows, everywhere else it sucks big time. Imagine native hooks that have to be created for widgets from each different OS and their Windowing toolkits. With Swing, you know what you get on each platform.

Ilya

-- this doesn't make it less of a problem to fix.

With him or the IDE?

Well, assuming the problem is instantly on the part of the consumer - especially when said consumer backs up the reasons he finds something unworkable and offers solutions - is a great way to make sure you have fewer consumers.

True. But since he is not my "consumer" I get to point out my problems with his problems with Netbeans. Since it is publically state. :)

Sometimes the best thing to do is to manage consumers' expectations. Like, "This is a cross platform IDE", as was said by someone else here.

The good thing is he doesn't think VS.Net (2003) is very good either. :) I agree on that one.

which makes it something for IDE maintainers to consider.

The font issue is not an IDE thing. Switch to the right Look and Feel (such as GTK) and you can get antialiased fonts. As I understand it Java 6.0 will fix many of these font issues. So, I don't see this as anything to do with the IDE people.

I had same problem with Jbuilder

Malcolm Davis responded in "Why are you uninstalling NetBeans IDE?" with a list of complaints about the IDE, including its use of fonts, the help system, key bindings, and autocompletion. He also adds constructive recommendations to how NetBeans can overcome the problems he points out.Of course, every editor has drawbacks. What do you not like about various IDEs? What would you consider the solution to the problems you see?

The fonts really don't bother me at all. I really don't see that many problems with NetBeans right now. One thing I would like to see changed is the way that the tabbed lists of files works. Older versions of NetBeans allowed multiple rows of tabs if you were handling large numbers of files. I realise this could get in the way, but I found it far more usable than the combination of a sideways scrollable list of tabs and the drop-down menu of file names.

One thing I would like to see changed is the way that the tabbed lists of files works. Older versions of NetBeans allowed multiple rows of tabs if you were handling large numbers of files. I realise this could get in the way, but I found it far more usable than the combination of a sideways scrollable list of tabs and the drop-down menu of file names.

I have not tried NetBeans but Eclipse uses something similar to the new NetBeans from the sounds of it. I too did not like how it worked at first, but the setup is quite smart actually.

In Eclipse there is a drop-down with the full file listing on the right hand side of the bar. All files that you have recently edited are in tabs (limited number yes, but it works in most cases). It is a matter of getting used to it, I guess.

The thing I hate the most is the plugin offerings between the 2 IDEs. Some are better on elcipse some are better on NetBeans. So then you get stuck with both. Visual studio may big bloat, but everything is in one IDE.

For me multiple rows of tabs if you were handling large numbers of files
is much better than
the combination of a sideways scrollable list of tabs and the drop-down menu of file names.
You could see all your open file names, switch back and forth more quickly than using that drop-down menu. Try using old Netbeans 3.5.1 version, Feel the difference of it. I don't know why Netbeans Team change that?.
Oh I miss that multiple rows of tabs... :)

I just cannot believe that someone gets so hung up on fonts!

I've used the following at various points in my software development career: Apple IIe, vt100, adm5, Macintosh, Windows, Irix, SunOS/OpenLook, Solaris, HPUX, and Alpha UNIX. Some of these had amongst the worst fonts ever known to man, but on none of them were fonts the big issue. I can't see how anyone cares one iota about fonts!

Unless they're totally illegible, I can't see listing fonts in the top 100 list of any IDE's productivity issues -- which is all I'm after, productivity.

As an aside, there are interviews out there where some of those behind SWT basically admit it was a mistake that it's too late to undo, i.e. that the real Swing issues that caused them to do SWT have been fixed -- and *no* font perfection is *not* a real issue.

I just cannot believe that someone gets so hung up on fonts!

People only get hung up on Swing fonts. All the other toolkits have had decent fonts for a while now.

Unless they're totally illegible, I can't see listing fonts in the top 100 list of any IDE's productivity issues -- which is all I'm after, productivity.

We've got Eclipse to be productive in, with good fonts to stare at for 12 hours a day. If Netbeans was the only game in town then...,but on Linux (pre-Mustang) Swing fonts,as well as the rest of the UI, is painful.

We've got Eclipse to be productive in, with good fonts to stare at for 12 hours a day. If Netbeans was the only game in town then...,but on Linux (pre-Mustang) Swing fonts,as well as the rest of the UI, is painful.

Then try eclipse on a sun machine, and stare Motif for 12h a day. :-D

We've got Eclipse to be productive in, with good fonts to stare at for 12 hours a day. If Netbeans was the only game in town then...,but on Linux (pre-Mustang) Swing fonts,as well as the rest of the UI, is painful.

Then try eclipse on a sun machine, and stare Motif for 12h a day. :-D

Or you can install GTK and use the GTK port of SWT. It's much less painful, and acts less like Motif... thank goodness.

Or you can install GTK and use the GTK port of SWT. It's much less painful, and acts less like Motif... thank goodness.

GTK would be better indeed. :-) There are beyond technical reasons why the team stuck with motif here :-)

Anyhow can someone send me screen shot of those "lousy" fonts. I'm really begin to be curious.

Please use PNG or any lossless images. I using LCD for ages, but never had any problem with fonts.

Peace,

Tamas

Well, he's tired of looking at fonts. I'm looking at NB fonts right now, I can't tell any difference than that from another IDE. Is he using a magnifying glass?

Key bindings, man, do you know that you can go to options and rebind any key you want? He keeps ranting about Windows bindings, who cares, not everyone uses windows. I'd much rather have a stable IDE environment on multiple platforms, than something like Eclipse that only works good/native in Windows. Let's see, I might work on Windows at work (because I'm forced to) and a Mac/Linux at home.

What red dots is he talking about, the red lines on the right that show whether you have errors in your file? I find those very useful, but maybe he's talking about something else...

Ilya

To me, there are minor usability issues. Yes, the help window relocation is sometimes annoying, but I don't use the help system for an IDE that much. These are not big issues to let me uninstall the IDE and try find another one. In general I think NetBeans is much better that others.

That's like me uninstalling Eclipse because the context menu (Shift-F10), behaves in the most dumb way you can possibly imagine. It opens not on the item in focus, rather where ever your mouse is. When I code, I don't use a mouse (in most cases), so if I highlight something and open it's context menu, the menu might show up in different parts of the screen. What's even worst, I saw this in the bug database, with a comment stating that they don't plan on fixing it:-)

So much for usability.

Ilya

Different people... different preferences. That's why there has never and I doubt ever will be one IDE to rule them all.

Just one sticking point, though: I have used (and continue to use) Eclipse heavily on Windows, Linux and OS X. Except for the time I tried to get it to work on Debian Woody, its been rock solid on Linux. In my experience, though, when the Windows version decides to misbehave, you're looking at an OS reinstall. I don't know where the fault lies (Windows or Eclipse/SWT) but I've seen it do stuff weird enough that I can't even figure out what search terms to use for searching Google/the bug database.

Different people... different preferences. That's why there has never and I doubt ever will be one IDE to rule them all.Just one sticking point, though: I have used (and continue to use) Eclipse heavily on Windows, Linux and OS X. Except for the time I tried to get it to work on Debian Woody, its been rock solid on Linux. In my experience, though, when the Windows version decides to misbehave, you're looking at an OS reinstall. I don't know where the fault lies (Windows or Eclipse/SWT) but I've seen it do stuff weird enough that I can't even figure out what search terms to use for searching Google/the bug database.

OS reinstall? Let's not start rumors. There is most always a way to fix something without doing an OS reinstall. The only time I've done Windows reinstalls, is to clean up the registry and other clutter.

Ilya

While on one hand it is a shame to not use a tool for something so subjective as the aesthetics of font rendering, I too am one who can't stand what I consider 'poor' font rendering. I figure if I'm going to have to stare at something all day/every day, I'd really like to be presented with good-looking fonts. Since there is a real alternative with what I consider better font rendering, I always end up uninstalling the NetBeans releases I install. Even with the 'swing.aatext' setting turned on, I don't like the rendering.

While on one hand it is a shame to not use a tool for something so subjective as the aesthetics of font rendering, I too am one who can't stand what I consider 'poor' font rendering. I figure if I'm going to have to stare at something all day/every day, I'd really like to be presented with good-looking fonts. Since there is a real alternative with what I consider better font rendering, I always end up uninstalling the NetBeans releases I install. Even with the 'swing.aatext' setting turned on, I don't like the rendering.

What do you like, may I ask? Eclipse? I mean, give an alternative? I'd much rather look at Netbeans fonts, which look a bit off to you (though I can't tell), than have it behave differently on multiple platforms. The whole point of Swing, was not to make it look as a native app, but to make it look and function the same on each supported platform, which I think Sun did a great job with.

Ilya

Yes, I prefer Eclipse these days for my development purposes. I don't notice drastic differences between Eclipse on Windows XP (work) and Linux (Suse10.1 at home). Of course, some people hate antialiasing, holding that antialiased fonts look too "fuzzy"...maybe it's just me (I run at 1600x1200 or above everywhere), but I don't see them as fuzzy.

I think there's supposed to be some enhancements in this (admittedly minor and aesthetic) area in JDK6, so one of these days I'll pair up the two (jdk6/netbeans) and try it out.

I won't uninstall it but I won't be using it much either. Netbeans has all these nice wizards which sometimes nice to have (e.g. the mobility pack).

However, the code editor is not so good. It lacks several important code and source refactorings eclipse has; the autocomplete is noticably much more stupid. It is case sensitive for instance. This the reason the guy couldn't get netbeans to auto complete to java.io.File, he was typing f instead of F. The code templates in Netbeans are less useful than the eclipse equivalent. I just love how you can quickly generate a for or foreach loop in eclipse using a template. Eclipse will make a good guess of what you want to iterate over. Netbeans is not so smart it will generate some stuff but you still need to edit it.

These are not little things. I've been coding for a few hours in Netbeans and missed several features that would normally save me from typing stuff manually in eclipse. No quick fixes, less functional auto complete, poor refactoring support (alt+shift+L is a time saver, infer generic types is brilliant too).

On top of that the refactoring UI in Netbeans is a retarded combination of a dialog and a docked window. For example a rename in eclipse is alt+shift+r, edit the name in the dialog which already has focus and hit enter (I do this a lot). In Netbeans this involves editing the name in the dialog, closing it and then finishing the refactoring in the window below. WTF! This makes doing renames (and other refactorings) really annoying.

If your business is editing large amounts of source code there is no question to which IDE is better. It's not a matter of taste but a long list of missing or poorly implemented features in Netbeans. However, there's more to an IDE than just editing code and Netbeans deserves some credit for developing and debugging things like J2EE & J2ME development really easy. The new GUI editor is even better than the previous version and both are better than anything eclipse has in this area. The ant integration is excellent as well and managing library and project dependencies is pretty nice as well. There's a lot of nice features integrated in Netbeans.

the autocomplete is noticably much more stupid. It is case sensitive for instance. This the reason the guy couldn't get netbeans to auto complete to java.io.File, he was typing f instead of F.

Try to unset the Case sensitive code completion checkbox in the editor settings.

The code templates in Netbeans are less useful than the eclipse equivalent. I just love how you can quickly generate a for or foreach loop in eclipse using a template. Eclipse will make a good guess of what you want to iterate over.

Try typing "forc" [space] and be amazed. ("for" [ctrl-space] alternatively). You might traverse the "variables" with [tab].

Netbeans is not so smart it will generate some stuff but you still need to edit it.These are not little things. I've been coding for a few hours in Netbeans and missed several features that would normally save me from typing stuff manually in eclipse.

Because you get used to Eclipse as I'm got used to Netbeans. I like it even though it could be smarter at some areas. I'm using it since 3.2. It's a tool, not a religion. I've tried many times get used to having an editor issuing a build after each save (i know i can turn it off), restarting tomcat / hotfix the code automagically, having perspecives for every thing. I just don't like it. It might be useful for you, but nothing but pain to me.

On top of that the refactoring UI in Netbeans is a retarded combination of a dialog and a docked window. For example a rename in eclipse is alt+shift+r, edit the name in the dialog which already has focus and hit enter (I do this a lot). In Netbeans this involves editing the name in the dialog, closing it and then finishing the refactoring in the window below.

Try to click on the checkbox below. "Preview refactoring". If you untick it, the preview window won't appear.

What I mostly saw was - "It doesn't function like I think should." and "It doesn't function like I am use to" and "I notice things most people don't"

No more blog posting.
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So who will be first to post the link to their blog in response to this blog? :)

I Have No Opinion on NetBeans specifically. Never used it.

Still, why do we want so many IDEs ?

I Have No Opinion on NetBeans specifically. Never used it.Still, why do we want so many IDEs ?

Competition, I hope. Do you remember Soviet Union?

Cheers.

I Have No Opinion on NetBeans specifically. Never used it.Still, why do we want so many IDEs ?

Competition, I hope. Do you remember Soviet Union?Cheers.

For some reason this is a recurrent "smart" idea brought up mostly by people with western names. They all seem not to get that the failure of the Soviet was a strict correlation with the cretinism/rapacity/overdeveloppedhomicidalinstincts of the leaders then with the system by itself. So please, if your name doesn't sound hungarian/chzech/romanian/bulgarian/polish/russian please restrain from bringing up this argument. You just sound ridiculous. (I dont't know how to differentiate east-west german names. And I autocensured myself like Google regarding the chinese names.)

I Have No Opinion on NetBeans specifically. Never used it.Still, why do we want so many IDEs ?

Competition, I hope. Do you remember Soviet Union?Cheers.

For some reason this is a recurrent "smart" idea brought up mostly by people with western names. They all seem not to get that the failure of the Soviet was a strict correlation with the cretinism/rapacity/overdeveloppedhomicidalinstincts of the leaders then with the system by itself. So please, if your name doesn't sound hungarian/chzech/romanian/bulgarian/polish/russian please restrain from bringing up this argument. You just sound ridiculous. (I dont't know how to differentiate east-west german names. And I autocensured myself like Google regarding the chinese names.)

The failure of Soviet Union was the fact that the government could no longer withhold information from the population (brainwash them). Once generations after WWII started seeing how freedom and life could be possible in the West, they lost all interest to participate in the joint building of the Soviet empire, though Perestroika started. That's when Gorbachev allowed everyone who didn't want to participate to leave, so all smart professional people left, at least the ones that had the means to leave. That left the country in a disaster mode and it eventualy fell apart.

So to comment on the post, Communism can only work by withholding information (freedom) and/or limiting growth. We're seeing the same in China righ now, though not to the extent the Russians went to.

I hope my name is non-Western enough for you:-)

Ilya

I Have No Opinion on NetBeans specifically. Never used it.Still, why do we want so many IDEs ?

Competition, I hope. Do you remember Soviet Union?Cheers.

For some reason this is a recurrent "smart" idea brought up mostly by people with western names. They all seem not to get that the failure of the Soviet was a strict correlation with the cretinism/rapacity/overdeveloppedhomicidalinstincts of the leaders then with the system by itself. So please, if your name doesn't sound hungarian/chzech/romanian/bulgarian/polish/russian please restrain from bringing up this argument. You just sound ridiculous. (I dont't know how to differentiate east-west german names. And I autocensured myself like Google regarding the chinese names.)

The failure of Soviet Union was the fact that the government could no longer withhold information from the population (brainwash them). Once generations after WWII started seeing how freedom and life could be possible in the West, they lost all interest to participate in the joint building of the Soviet empire, though Perestroika started. That's when Gorbachev allowed everyone who didn't want to participate to leave, so all smart professional people left, at least the ones that had the means to leave. That left the country in a disaster mode and it eventualy fell apart.

So to comment on the post, Communism can only work by withholding information (freedom) and/or limiting growth. We're seeing the same in China righ now, though not to the extent the Russians went to.

I hope my name is non-Western enough for you:-)Ilya

This is a technical website, please stop this political bullshit, especially considering that your "facts" represent at most one hundredth of the truth. No one here is interested in fallen Soviet empire anyway.

Communism as political system has nothing to do with currently established regimes in North Korea, China, Cuba or with the one that was in the former Soviet Union. Communism is something very different that was never achieved. Despite of any political issues, Chinese rate of technological growth and its trade balance with other contries including U.S.A. makes me think about starting to learn chinese.

I still cannot understand how Soviet Union or China relate to existance of several IDEs and competition.

This is a technical website, please stop this political bullshit, especially considering that your "facts" represent at most one hundredth of the truth. No one here is interested in fallen Soviet empire anyway. Communism as political system has nothing to do with currently established regimes in North Korea, China, Cuba or with the one that was in the former Soviet Union. Communism is something very different that was never achieved. Despite of any political issues, Chinese rate of technological growth and its trade balance with other contries including U.S.A. makes me think about starting to learn chinese.I still cannot understand how Soviet Union or China relate to existance of several IDEs and competition.

Michael, I enjoyed the irony of your response given the subject of this thread, but is it really fair to say that "Communism as political system has nothing to do with currently established regimes in North Korea, China, Cuba or with the one that was in the former Soviet Union"?

Perhaps you have deep insight into Marxist philosophy or some affection for the Communist system but when I hear comments like this one it leads me to think that someone is mourning the failed implementation of a system that was flawed to begin with.

Perhaps you have deep insight into Marxist philosophy or some affection for the Communist system but when I hear comments like this one it leads me to think that someone is mourning the failed implementation of a system that was flawed to begin with.

Egocentric human nature is incompatible with communist ideas. It up to you to decide which one is flawed.

Perhaps you have deep insight into Marxist philosophy or some affection for the Communist system but when I hear comments like this one it leads me to think that someone is mourning the failed implementation of a system that was flawed to begin with.

Egocentric human nature is incompatible with communist ideas. It up to you to decide which one is flawed.

Would you see a greater proliferation of technological choices in a society where information and innovation are controlled centrally or in one where information is shared and innovation is in the free hands of private individuals?

Perhaps you have deep insight into Marxist philosophy or some affection for the Communist system but when I hear comments like this one it leads me to think that someone is mourning the failed implementation of a system that was flawed to begin with.

Egocentric human nature is incompatible with communist ideas. It up to you to decide which one is flawed.

Would you see a greater proliferation of technological choices in a society where information and innovation are controlled centrally or in one where information is shared and innovation is in the free hands of private individuals?

Communism is not about centralised control. It is about doing whatever you want to do and having whatever you want to have. You are mixing the bad implementation with the concept again. Try to abstract, you are a programmer after all.

Perhaps you have deep insight into Marxist philosophy or some affection for the Communist system but when I hear comments like this one it leads me to think that someone is mourning the failed implementation of a system that was flawed to begin with.

Egocentric human nature is incompatible with communist ideas. It up to you to decide which one is flawed.

Would you see a greater proliferation of technological choices in a society where information and innovation are controlled centrally or in one where information is shared and innovation is in the free hands of private individuals?

Communism is not about centralised control. It is about doing whatever you want to do and having whatever you want to have. You are mixing the bad implementation with the concept again. Try to abstract, you are a programmer after all.

After your post about my OT post, I was going to stop, but your thoughts about Russias and China,etc... implementations of communism are pathetic. It's not about doing what ever you want and having whatever you want, you're mixing it with capitalism, sorry. Communism is about having just enough (it's about your needs). And who decides your needs, ahh, let's see, that's an implementation detail, in the Soviet empire it was the government. China is a bit different, though they resemble alot of communist ideas though. They are all (China, Cuba, NK), implementations of an interface (Communism).

Ilya

Still, why do we want so many IDEs ?

Competition. All you have to do is use Visual Studio .NET for 5 minutes to understand why you want competition in the IDE space...

Java IDEs are good (well some of them) largely because they have to be in order to survive.

JBuilder and NetBeans have fallen to the better alternatives of Eclipse and IDEA.

Well, I suppose NetBeans hasn't fallen completely, but they definitely have the defibrillator out...KA CHUNG!

Be glad that you live in a world where you can code without being tied to a particular tool or vendor.

Clinton

Well, I suppose NetBeans hasn't fallen completely, but they definitely have the defibrillator out...KA CHUNG!

I'd be interested to know on what evidence you base this opinion. My impression is that NetBeans is doing pretty well right now, with increasing take-up.

I'd be interested to know on what evidence you base this opinion. My impression is that NetBeans is doing pretty well right now, with increasing take-up.

Will you still have this impression if you remove all the PR messages that come from *.sun.com and the polls ordered by Sun? :-)

--
Cedric
TestNG

I'd be interested to know on what evidence you base this opinion. My impression is that NetBeans is doing pretty well right now, with increasing take-up.

Will you still have this impression if you remove all the PR messages that come from *.sun.com and the polls ordered by Sun? :-)

I believe I will, as I try not to rely on such things. Even if I were to put my trust in such polls, my experience is that, as here, others don't. As I have said, I have been checking on adverts for client-side development skills on various sites. This seems to back up the polls which you imply are 'ordered by Sun' :)

No more blog posting.No more blog posting.No more blog posting.No more blog posting.No more blog posting.No more blog posting.No more blog posting.

Come to think of it: what would remain?

I do like the font in NB better than in Eclipse.

But the autocompletion in NB does bother me a lot. During the first years as a coder, I was strictly trained to write code with lines not-exceeding 80 characters. This is still a habit when I write code. I like the Eclipe style of autocompletion, that leaves more room in a line for my own code.

And I still do not know how to set the NB package explorer layout to hierarchial. It's like I am searching a garbage can when I try to locate a class in the package explorer.

Other than these, I am happy with NB though I do not use it for my daily development work.

Fonts: The first thing I noticed was NetBeans fonts. The fonts look gritty, and are missing the smoothness of anti-alias. Recommendation: Fix the lettering by using system fonts. If Swing has issues system fonts, fix Swing. If Swing cannot be fixed, develop new technology that works correctly

Every other toolkit solved the font problem years ago. But here is Swing that'll have something later this year. No wonder Java is a non-issue on the client.

But here is Swing that'll have something later this year.

Swing can already use anti-aliased fonts if you choose the right fonts and the right L&F.

No wonder Java is a non-issue on the client.

Java is doing reasonably on the client right now, with Swing being one of the most in-demand skills for client-side development.

Swing can already use anti-aliased fonts if you choose the right fonts and the right L&F.

Not subpixel, and that's what the LCD needs.

Java is doing reasonably on the client right now, with Swing being one of the most in-demand skills for client-side development.

I hope they're paying well to foist that stuff on the corporate guy. But for the outside world, it's a non-issue.

Java is doing reasonably on the client right now, with Swing being one of the most in-demand skills for client-side development.

I hope they're paying well to foist that stuff on the corporate guy. But for the outside world, it's a non-issue.

Sorry, but I don't buy the tired old 'it's so bad it is only used because corporate managers force it on developers argument'. You may not like Swing, but I do, and so do many others. There are well-established popular shrink-wrapped Swing apps out there. Moneydance is one I use; there are many others. Your 'it's a non-issue' statement is simply wrong.

Sorry, but I don't buy the tired old 'it's so bad it is only used because corporate managers force it on developers argument'. You may not like Swing, but I do, and so do many others. There are well-established popular shrink-wrapped Swing apps out there. Moneydance is one I use; there are many others. Your 'it's a non-issue' statement is simply wrong.

You can believe what you want. The fact is that other toolkits solved this problem a while ago. I consider it interesting that the swing defenders/apologists keep on trying to convince the rest of us that there's nothing to it. But if you're happy with mediocrity then so be it.

I guess the "shrink-wrapped" company that produces Moneydance would sacrifice aesthetics for having something that is bundled with the JRE, rather than having to bundle SWT native code with their app. Oh well, there is no accounting for taste. At least the rest of us have other options.

You can believe what you want.

The relatively widespread use of Swing is not a matter of personal belief. I was surprised when I found out about it.

I consider it interesting that the swing defenders/apologists keep on trying to convince the rest of us that there's nothing to it. But if you're happy with mediocrity then so be it.

All this fuss over sub-pixel anti-aliasing. Maybe it is my failing ageing eyes, but it really doesn't matter to me to be honest. There are far more important things to me about a GUI toolkit - portability, flexibility etc.

I guess the "shrink-wrapped" company that produces Moneydance would sacrifice aesthetics for having something that is bundled with the JRE, rather than having to bundle SWT native code with their app. Oh well, there is no accounting for taste. At least the rest of us have other options.

You do, and you are right. It is a matter of taste. You may think they sacrificed aesthetics. They might not.

My issue with you was that you were implying that Swing was not used much client-side; or that if it was, it was purely because of pressure within corporate environments. Whatever you or I may think of Swing aesthetically is irrelevant to its current usage.

My issue with you was that you were implying that Swing was not used much client-side; or that if it was, it was purely because of pressure within corporate environments. Whatever you or I may think of Swing aesthetically is irrelevant to its current usage.

We've all heard all sorts of claims regarding usage.
But the fact remains, that on the non-developer, non-corporate desktop the profile of Swing isn't really there. Except for OSX, it's too foreign. Not all of that is Swing's fault per-se. Java has always had deployment issues, but Sun just didn't invest enough in Swing 5 years ago. If Apple did it a while back, then I don't know why Sun couldn't have - even if they put most of the resources into the windows version.

My issue with you was that you were implying that Swing was not used much client-side; or that if it was, it was purely because of pressure within corporate environments. Whatever you or I may think of Swing aesthetically is irrelevant to its current usage.

We've all heard all sorts of claims regarding usage.But the fact remains, that on the non-developer, non-corporate desktop the profile of Swing isn't really there.

Sorry, but I simply don't accept that this is a fact.

There was a report at the end of last year which suggested that Swing was now the most widely used client-side GUI toolkit, taking over from WinForms. Taking a look at the job market, and the required skills for client-side development, I found that this seemed to be true. I was honestly surprised by this, as I had heard all kinds of 'Swing is dead' claims.

I agree that Sun probably did not put enough effort into Swing many years back, but things have changed.

If you have some clear evidence that Swing is not used much for client-side development, I would be interested. Until then, I am going to have to disagree with you, based on the evidence I have seen.

There was a report at the end of last year which suggested that Swing was now the most widely used client-side GUI toolkit, taking over from WinForms. Taking a look at the job market, and the required skills for client-side development, I found that this seemed to be true. I was honestly surprised by this, as I had heard all kinds of 'Swing is dead' claims.

Like I said, anybody can make certain claims and I figured you would bring up that "report". IIRC, they made some claims and the actual study or poll data was hidden out of sight. So I'm not buying it, and even if I was, having greater usage than winforms isn't really telling us much considering the still complete dominance Microsoft has on the client.

I agree that Sun probably did not put enough effort into Swing many years back, but things have changed.

The dead period was probably around the 2001 time frame (after the late 90s when McNealy was screaming Java was the Os), when Sun seemed resigned to the "TheServerSide". Doesn't the name of this site, "the enterprise java community" tell you something? The problem is that these efforts should have been going on 5 years ago.

If you have some clear evidence that Swing is not used much for client-side development, I would be interested. Until then, I am going to have to disagree with you, based on the evidence I have seen

I don't see the evidence that it is, but I look forward to the final outcome of the current Mustang Swing efforts and even Dolphin down the road (if it really matters at that point)

So I'm not buying it, and even if I was, having greater usage than winforms isn't really telling us much considering the still complete dominance Microsoft has on the client.

The phrase 'complete dominance' is meaningless by itself. If you mean number of Microsoft-produced applications, you are right. If you mean number of client-side applications that have been produced in the past by toolkits designed to use Microsoft APIs, you are also right. What I am talking about what is in use right now. The evidence (and not just one report) seems to suggest that Swing is in use right now. Whether or not it truly is the most dominant client-side toolkit is, I agree, questionable. What I am trying to insist is that Swing client-side is far from the dead 'non-issue' you are saying it is; nothing more.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be interested.

The phrase 'complete dominance' is meaningless by itself. If you mean number of Microsoft-produced applications, you are right. If you mean number of client-side applications that have been produced in the past by toolkits designed to use Microsoft APIs, you are also right.

What I meant is the dominance of windows on the desktop. And specificially the point is of how many applications are still being developed in MFC/win32api/VB/Winforms compared to Swing. Winforms development could also be a non-issue too. It's pretty much a transitional toolkit with XAML and friends coming to XP/Vista.

What I am talking about what is in use right now. The evidence (and not just one report) seems to suggest that Swing is in use right now.

I don't buy the report. They claimed some things and then hid all their data away somewhere. I don't know what the other evidence is. Obviously there is some corporate usage of Swing and that makes sense because of all the server side stuff usage of Java and the ability to reuse those skills. But as far as the wider, mainstream desktop I don't see it. I'll call it a non-issue.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be interested.

I haven't seen any evidence from you besides the report, which seemed to draw some conclusions, but hid the actual data and methods.

The phrase 'complete dominance' is meaningless by itself. If you mean number of Microsoft-produced applications, you are right. If you mean number of client-side applications that have been produced in the past by toolkits designed to use Microsoft APIs, you are also right.

What I meant is the dominance of windows on the desktop. And specificially the point is of how many applications are still being developed in MFC/win32api/VB/Winforms compared to Swing. Winforms development could also be a non-issue too. It's pretty much a transitional toolkit with XAML and friends coming to XP/Vista.

What I am talking about what is in use right now. The evidence (and not just one report) seems to suggest that Swing is in use right now.

I don't buy the report. They claimed some things and then hid all their data away somewhere. I don't know what the other evidence is. Obviously there is some corporate usage of Swing and that makes sense because of all the server side stuff usage of Java and the ability to reuse those skills. But as far as the wider, mainstream desktop I don't see it. I'll call it a non-issue.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I would be interested.

I haven't seen any evidence from you besides the report, which seemed to draw some conclusions, but hid the actual data and methods.

Actualy, there is a lot of corporate Swing usage. Any software from companies that want cross platform ability, without any extra maintenance, seem to be going towards Swing. I see a lot of enterprise storage companies developing storage management solutions, backup solutions in Swing, since they want them to function on multiple platforms.

Ilya

I haven't seen any evidence from you besides the report, which seemed to draw some conclusions, but hid the actual data and methods.

I said what I did - trawled job advert sites to look for Swing/WinForms etc. as required skills.

My issue with you was that you were implying that Swing was not used much client-side; or that if it was, it was purely because of pressure within corporate environments. Whatever you or I may think of Swing aesthetically is irrelevant to its current usage.

We've all heard all sorts of claims regarding usage.But the fact remains, that on the non-developer, non-corporate desktop the profile of Swing isn't really there. Except for OSX, it's too foreign. Not all of that is Swing's fault per-se. Java has always had deployment issues, but Sun just didn't invest enough in Swing 5 years ago. If Apple did it a while back, then I don't know why Sun couldn't have - even if they put most of the resources into the windows version.

Too late to invest in Windows. There is no way Swing would win being put against WPF a.k.a. Avalon. WPF moved both resources and code (if one desires) into XAML. They also can load XAML over HTTP I presume. Who cares about RIA battle between Flash/JDNC Swing/Ajax. Microsoft is flanking Sun, rolling out an API suitable both for desktop and web. I can understand their reasons for not investing into new browser version or late adoption of Ajax in WebForms despite that they invented it.

Too late to invest in Windows. There is no way Swing would win being put against WPF a.k.a. Avalon.

Whether or not it is too late to invest in Swing on Windows, that is exactly what Sun is doing right now. There has been considerable effort put in to ensure that Swing on Java 6.0 will be well-integrated into the next version of Windows.

Too late to invest in Windows. There is no way Swing would win being put against WPF a.k.a. Avalon. WPF moved both resources and code (if one desires) into XAML. They also can load XAML over HTTP I presume. Who cares about RIA battle between Flash/JDNC Swing/Ajax. Microsoft is flanking Sun, rolling out an API suitable both for desktop and web. I can understand their reasons for not investing into new browser version or late adoption of Ajax in WebForms despite that they invented it.

I agree with your analysis. Microsoft is rolling right over everybody with Avalon and friends and if/when XAML over http comes out it's going to shake a lot of people up. Maybe that's why we see Adobe buying Macromedia (which Microsoft is taking on too with Sparkle). I expect Flash to have a bigger role as a RIA platform in the future. But the problem is that Sun has no choice. Microsoft still completely dominates the client and will continue to for at least the medium-term.

Too late to invest in Windows. There is no way Swing would win being put against WPF a.k.a. Avalon. WPF moved both resources and code (if one desires) into XAML. They also can load XAML over HTTP I presume. Who cares about RIA battle between Flash/JDNC Swing/Ajax. Microsoft is flanking Sun, rolling out an API suitable both for desktop and web. I can understand their reasons for not investing into new browser version or late adoption of Ajax in WebForms despite that they invented it.

I agree with your analysis. Microsoft is rolling right over everybody with Avalon and friends and if/when XAML over http comes out it's going to shake a lot of people up. Maybe that's why we see Adobe buying Macromedia (which Microsoft is taking on too with Sparkle). I expect Flash to have a bigger role as a RIA platform in the future. But the problem is that Sun has no choice. Microsoft still completely dominates the client and will continue to for at least the medium-term.

Well XAML is a right move, but face it, Microsoft has deliberately torpedoed every standard and pseudo standard there is with their huge browser share. After all XAML is yet another rehash of Xul and similar technologies long in existence.
Now that they have broken HTML long enough that everyone has to fight with frameworks to gap the bridge between standard HTML and their stuff, they roll out their own Windows only solution. It makes me sad that they seem to be able to take over the next area which still is public domain and tie it onto Windows.
The only thing I see in the future will be cross platform gapping ui kits which then will bridge the various view technologies again, like we have it in the rich client space already.
Sure it`ll make programming für the web saner then it is currently (which I would call insane), but for one time there was a chance to have a real cross platform ui standard, and well Microsoft again managed to torpedo it.

Well XAML is a right move, but face it, Microsoft has deliberately torpedoed every standard and pseudo standard there is with their huge browser share. After all XAML is yet another rehash of Xul and similar technologies long in existence.

I think people people have to face that it's not Microsoft's job to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with their competitors

Now that they have broken HTML long enough that everyone has to fight with frameworks to gap the bridge between standard HTML and their stuff, they roll out their own Windows only solution. It makes me sad that they seem to be able to take over the next area which still is public domain and tie it onto Windows.

Same as above

The only thing I see in the future will be cross platform gapping ui kits which then will bridge the various view technologies again, like we have it in the rich client space already.

Agreed. The servers will be probably pushing out XAML and XUL. I would assume the other alternatives will follow Mozilla's lead and implement XUL at some point.

Sure it`ll make programming für the web saner then it is currently (which I would call insane), but for one time there was a chance to have a real cross platform ui standard, and well Microsoft again managed to torpedo it.

And what's so hard about understanding that it's not in Microsoft's interests?

Agreed. Browser detection plus

Well XAML is a right move, but face it, Microsoft has deliberately torpedoed every standard and pseudo standard there is with their huge browser share. After all XAML is yet another rehash of Xul and similar technologies long in existence.

I think people people have to face that it's not Microsoft's job to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with their competitors

I am going to be tiresome and disagree with you yet again!

I think we are in for interesting times ahead, as I don't think Microsoft is in a position to ensure that any client technology is truly dominant any longer. There are two reasons for this.

First, they don't have total dominance of the browser any more. When 95% percent of users used Explorer, that was enough for many developers to get away with producing sites just for Explorer and Microsoft 'standards'. But now that there is a significant presence of other browsers, it is a lot harder for website developers to justify supporting just one. The result is often a significant volume of complaints. There may be some corporate developers who can target just IE6, but even 10% public use of other browsers changes things; especially when those other browsers tend to be standards-compliant and IE is the browser you have to put in extra work to support.

The second reason is the huge volume of legacy systems. It will be a very long time until Windows Vista becomes the dominant desktop system. Until then, there are a lot of older systems to support.

I believe that Microsoft will find itself under increasing pressure for more standards-compliance and backwards compatibility - as indicated by their change of heart towards releasing new versions of IE.

I am going to be tiresome and disagree with you yet again!

I am not going to be tiresome and actually agree with some of what you said:)

I think we are in for interesting times ahead, as I don't think Microsoft is in a position to ensure that any client technology is truly dominant any longer. There are two reasons for this.

First, they don't have total dominance of the browser any more. When 95% percent of users used Explorer, that was enough for many developers to get away with producing sites just for Explorer and Microsoft 'standards'. But now that there is a significant presence of other browsers, it is a lot harder for website developers to justify supporting just one. The result is often a significant volume of complaints. There may be some corporate developers who can target just IE6, but even 10% public use of other browsers changes things; especially when those other browsers tend to be standards-compliant and IE is the browser you have to put in extra work to support.

Agree completely, and I would hope that Microsoft never gets back to their high point of browser market share. Microsoft is always going to have to play ball as far as the lowest common denominator of HTML/CSS/Javascript. But XAML is the whole client side presentation from thick client, medium client, down to a possible thin client with the transport being HTTP.

I believe that Microsoft will find itself under increasing pressure for more standards-compliance and backwards compatibility - as indicated by their change of heart towards releasing new versions of IE.

Microsoft already is, but with their near infinite resources, they can both walk and chew gum at the same. As in, they can both do the HTML/CSS/Javascript (possible HTML 5.x or XHTML 2.0) and still roll out their XAML stuff which isn't even primarily for the browser, but we can assume could be used for applets.

But the point is that bellyaching about Microsoft not playing fair (you weren't, but the other guy) gets nobody nowhere. Firefox came out with a better product and grabbed some of that market share away from IE.

By the way, I've heard that Mustang Swing will look even better on Vista than on XP.

Too late to invest in Windows. There is no way Swing would win being put against WPF a.k.a. Avalon. WPF moved both resources and code (if one desires) into XAML. They also can load XAML over HTTP I presume. Who cares about RIA battle between Flash/JDNC Swing/Ajax. Microsoft is flanking Sun, rolling out an API suitable both for desktop and web. I can understand their reasons for not investing into new browser version or late adoption of Ajax in WebForms despite that they invented it.

Microsoft's lack of interest in the browser has already proven to be a mistake. The browser is not going away. Rich internet apps will not take over either if they fragment the web.

There are huge amounts of legacy apps there - 10 years worth or more. Avalon is not here, Vista is not here. It will take five or more years for Vista to even break even with the rest of the Windows versions. To replace legacy apps. and apps that will be developed meanwhile, it will easily take another 10-15 years. We are easily talking about 20 years before Avalon-style apps would be dominant.

Even then, this is only true if nobody fights back. You will see other competing solutions that are more universal and will grab a sizeable share from the pie. It means that the web becomes fragmented...and people and app developers will go back to the browser as the lowest common nominator. HTML outlives Avalon.

I have no desire to deal with piss-poor fonts in 2006 while Mustang is yet to ship and finally approach the font rendering of other toolkits. To be fair, Mustang does have some substantial improvements and the Linux quality will be much, much better and I hear the Vista quality will be even better than the XP. It just should've been done years ago to compete with the other toolkits.

What is the big deal with SWT? It was already implemented and it already failed to meet most needs, it is called AWT. SWT is bound to fall into the exact same problems as AWT, hence the reason why Sun created Swing.

SWT - breaking the cardinal rule of software re-use and learning from your mistakes.

As IDE I agree that NetBeans is a little bit beyond Eclipse but starting with 5.0 branch the NetBeans RCP API rocks over the primitive Eclipse RCP! I used in my work Eclipse RCP and SWT 3.1 branch and some days ago I started to investigate the NetBeans RCP and basically I can say that it's a dream to use-it comparing with the Eclipse paranoid RCP. My well backed by personal work experience 2 cents concerning this aspect, but honestly, c’mon guys so much dance and singing because someone doesn't like some fonts ?! WTF ... keep focused on coding if you buy your food and pay your rent from coding, don't install and uninstall an IDE after another, the best one is the one you use in a productive way and you are familiar with, trust me! But at the end what matters is the quality of your source code and there are no magic solutions to improve the quality of your code – other than your own hands and mind.
Have a good day and peace...
Cristian Malinescu

I dont completely agree.
The auto code complete is done really bad in netbeans. Auto complete should never be case sensitive because the idea behind auto completion is that he developer should not be bothered by remembering the function names etc. Here it forces you to have the same case.
There are some other features which are really a good to have in eclipse but either missing or not done properly in netbeans.

But I guess - IDE is close to anyone's heart as the coffee flavor they like. Hard to change your liking. !!
Enjoy the IDE you like ...

I dont completely agree. The auto code complete is done really bad in netbeans. Auto complete should never be case sensitive because the idea behind auto completion is that he developer should not be bothered by remembering the function names etc. Here it forces you to have the same case.There are some other features which are really a good to have in eclipse but either missing or not done properly in netbeans. But I guess - IDE is close to anyone's heart as the coffee flavor they like. Hard to change your liking. !!Enjoy the IDE you like ...

1. Netbeans IDE based on Netbeans Platform (Rich-Client-Platform)
It has nothing to do with code completion, not even being an editor.

2. Autocomplete can be case-insensitive, just tick the box. (there is an editor setting.)

Please do you homework before stating something that is not true.

Well I argued about NetBeans RCP vs. Eclipse RCP and not about Fonts and Auto-Complete ... Fonts/Auto-Complete are just personal flavors ... and engineering value is not only a matter of fluffy aspects :-) …
Have a good day and peace ...
Cristian Malinescu

I was a Eclipse user for te past three years and a week back I tried Netbeans 5 release and I'm pretty impressed with it (compared to 4.1 version).

One major reason for Java developers moving in to favor .NET is that the standardization is much higher in .NET arena. In .NET we have microsoft leadership providing VisualStudio envioronment. If you are a master of VisualStudio, IIS and .NET then you are basically safe.

I feel Java community also really need to get around and support one standard development envioronment for java as well. I do not mind having several utilities from different vendors around supporting the main environment.

Look at J2EE.. you being a master of BEA or Jboss does not easily mean that you can play the techlead role in the next WebSphere project (Just look at the amount of vendor dependent elements exists in a real J2EE project). This too much of differentiation ultimately add up as the cost of the project.

I know this point is open for discussion and there can be lots of counter argument for this. But I feel that .NET has a major plus point in the long run due to higher level of standardization.

Hasith yaggahavita

Don't the editors at TSS have better things to do that crawl through blogs looking for turd droppings ?

There is a reason your other site http://www.theserverside.net/tss has a grand total of only 10 comments: that site sucks compared to the rest of the content sites for Windows. and DOT NET development.

Now it seems to me that you have run out of ideas for the this site as well.

This guy must be using a different netbeans:
A first, you can turn on antialiasing, even in the IDE,
secondly the search in Netbeans help reveals following: (no empty page but real text)

Options Window: Editor Settings
snip

The most common settings for the Source Editor are available in the Basic Options view of the Options window. The Basic Options view appears whenever you choose Tools > Options.
To display advanced general Source Editor properties, choose Tools > Options, and click Advanced Options. Expand the Editing node and select the Editor Settings node. You can also modify Source Editor settings in the Basic Options view of the Options window.

Text Antialiasing. If selected, text in the Source Editor is antialiased. For performance reasons, antialiasing is turned off by default.