Spring-RCP, a new project announced recently on Sourceforge, has the mission of providing an elegant way to build highly-configurable, GUI-standards-following rich-client applications faster by leveraging the Spring Framework, and a rich library of UI factories and support classes. It only has a 0.1.0 release available, but might be worth watching.

It attempts to deliver the same benefits of other rich client platforms (such as the Eclipse RCP and Netbeans platform) in providing basic UI services, and leveraging the Spring Framework might give it an advantage in availability of services, such as form data binding and validation.

One of the nicest things about Spring in other areas has been support for the problem domain and not just a 'bean container'. This looks like what Spring Rich Client is going for.

This is great news.

Netbeans Rich Client framework has been around for a long time so I assume it is quite mature. Quite a few well-known commercial apps have been built on top of it:
http://www.netbeans.org/about/third-party.html

So what problems with Netbeans are addressed by Spring-RCP?

I don't have experience with either so any feedback is much appreicated. Thanks.

On the dev list 2 ppl were talking about how to integrate Matisse with spring-richclient. They posted some code in those e-mails, but neither has committed it yet into the sandbox, so it's unsure how well it works.

Swing and Eclipse related lots of GUI platforms gets matures with time goes on in the desktop client applications. And products depends on these platforms are creating every day. The problem is not in developing rich client GUI, problem is that integrating front of application with back end server side applications easily is matter of problem.

You could think about the platform that developer of the J2ee could easily develop GUIs and integrates with backend platform.

As comes into WYSWYG platforms, there are lots of products also come into playing here. For example, Eclipse VE (Visual editor) or some swing applications(NetBean for example) already exists in the road. But you could able to give developers, who are not able to know Swing or SWT codes , a chance to creating GUIs with WYSWYG platforms and able to integrate this with server side J2ee codes. In other words, end to end full J2ee platform could rescue the developers from the burden of GUI related and integration realted tasks.

 These problems resembles to application servers. How many developers know very detailed knowledge about the EJB specification or J2ee specification or JCA,JTA or any other specifications. But a lots of developer develops J2ee server side code easily every day and application servers do most of the work. This is the problem, maybe client side container platforms will be matured and on the client will be appeared in the next.

 So as summary, problem is not in the creating the GUI(swing or swt or other), problem is in the creating fully functional enterprise J2ee (GUI and integration with backend) easily using some software product lines platforms.

...This is the problem, maybe client side container platforms will be matured and on the client will be appeared in the next. So as summary, problem is not in the creating the GUI(swing or swt or other), problem is in the creating fully functional enterprise J2ee (GUI and integration with backend) easily using some software product lines platforms.

Very good comment. I think it is a clear trend that theserveride problems ave very different from client-side problems, but most of them are solved and solved very good in existing frameworks like Eclipse RPC and NetBeans RPC, I hope Spring will not invent a wheel and not start to do the same job againg, but will concentrate on "connectivity" part - a layer beween GUI controllers and J2EE side.

This is great news.Netbeans Rich Client framework has been around for a long time so I assume it is quite mature. Quite a few well-known commercial apps have been built on top of it:http://www.netbeans.org/about/third-party.htmlSo what problems with Netbeans are addressed by Spring-RCP?I don't have experience with either so any feedback is much appreicated. Thanks.

I haven't looked into spring rcp in great detail, but I think there is great potential in the project. Basically, it's partially about the levels of abstraction, the baggage that doesn't have to be carried with the platform, and the fact that it is well positioned to develop fat clients for server apps. It always struck me as odd taking an IDE, stripping away the app layer and getting the infrastructure for a fat client in a 3-tier architecture. I can see that approach makes sense for other domains but...

On the subject of fact clients: these definitely still exist, and form an important part of the app infrastructure. I use the amount of interaction as a guide -- if it is too much, it simply shouldn't be a web app.

Andrew

Does it work well with visual designers such as the Netbeans form editor or matisse?
it would be nice to be able to add the spring components to the netbeans palette and drag and drop them into the form...
i wonder if that's possible.

I think,

Spring RCP as IOC for Swing or JFace is a better positioning.

Looks like the birth of another Elephant, just like
its parent.

Looks like the birth of another Elephant, just likeits parent.

Raymond,

This message is obviously based on the same meticulous research and deep analysis as that behind all your other posts
  https://www.theserverside.com/user/userthreads.tss?user_id=637313
and is just as insightfull and thought providing.
  
It's become pretty clear by now that you have a deep hatred of Spring (and Geronimo it seems), without actually being able to communicate anything about the basis of those sentiments.

If you can't add value, might I suggest you just stay out of the discussion? White noise posts like yours are part of what's turned TSS into a pale shadow of its former self...


--
Colin Sampaleanu
Principal, Interface21
Spring Training, Consulting and Support - "From the Source"
http://www.interface21.com

Colin,

Did I hit a raw nerve, or is this something you keep hearing
from others aswell. You must encounter similar opinions for
you to react that way you have. Its not that I don't think spring has a place in the java world, of course I do, but it has been removed from our architecture as a dependance. We are not using Gerongo either, but instead WebLogic platform for its integration support between systems.

Sorry if you got offended, but for production systems and development to support it, we would rather choose the right tools, rather than what the current perceived tech trend is.

Spring is an elephant, and Gerongo is really a non starter when it comes to business critical systems.

Have fun!

Raymond,

I understand why (if you are not getting significant benefits) you would want to remove a dependency on Spring from your architecture.

What I don't get is why you are so comfortable with a dependency on WebLogic for integration support between systems.

If that means using WebLogic specific features, well I think that's an interesting basket to place all of your eggs.

Best of luck to you.

Colin,Did I hit a raw nerve, or is this something you keep hearingfrom others aswell. You must encounter similar opinions for you to react that way you have. Its not that I don't think spring has a place in the java world, of course I do, but it has been removed from our architecture as a dependance. We are not using Gerongo either, but instead WebLogic platform for its integration support between systems. Sorry if you got offended, but for production systems and development to support it, we would rather choose the right tools, rather than what the current perceived tech trend is.Spring is an elephant, and Gerongo is really a non starter when it comes to business critical systems.Have fun!

I met Rod Johnson once in Sydney in Spring User Group Meeting. I remembered he goes Spring is only useful for an experience smart java developer and I reckon he is right.

Raymand, you are right. You should not use Spring.


Btw, I would like to let you know that I have designed and architected a multi-billions mission-critial project for one of the biggest telco in Asian-pacific one year ago and Spring works fine for me.

This bazaar statement tries to imply that if you are not using spring, you are not a smart developer.

On the other hand, there are definitely idiot developers out there using spring. Should we say if you are using spring, you are an idiot?

This bazaar statement tries to imply that if you are not using spring, you are not a smart developer.

No, it doesn't. You can't assume the reverse is true.

All humans are mammals. But not all mammals are human.

On the other hand, there are definitely idiot developers out there using spring.

He is saying these people shouldn't be using.

Btw, there are bazaar solutions designed by bazaar people here and there.

George, if i know that you posted something like this before, I wouldn't bother to reply your post. That is for me.

https://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38170#194648

George, if i know that you posted something like this before, I wouldn't bother to reply your post. That is for me.https://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38170#194648

I had totally forgotten that. Thanks for reminding me.

George, if i know that you posted something like this before, I wouldn't bother to reply your post. That is for me.https://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38170#194648

I had totally forgotten that. Thanks for reminding me.

Yeah I remember this thread, I had a good laugh with my coworkers :)

George, if i know that you posted something like this before, I wouldn't bother to reply your post. That is for me.https://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=38170#194648

I had totally forgotten that. Thanks for reminding me.

Have you also forgotten about your "tech poo spreader" post?

I can understand a lot of people havn't written a batch job in any language other than Java, but not you, Mark.

Even Quartz uses a servlet to get the job done.

Have you also forgotten about your "tech poo spreader" post?

I had. Thanks for reminding me. Funny, wasn't it.

I can understand a lot of people havn't written a batch job in any language other than Java, but not you, Mark.

How clairvoyant of you. And I have. In quite a few.

Even Quartz uses a servlet to get the job done.

Me no get.

Do you know how many pancakes it takes to shingle a doghouse?

Even Quartz uses a servlet to get the job done.

Me no get.
http://www.onjava.com/lpt/a/6207

And by saying Spring is only for smart developers, Rod himself just proved the point that, started as a simpler/easier alternative (or add-on) to EJB, Spring is quickly becoming another elephant.

This bazaar statement tries to imply that if you are not using spring, you are not a smart developer.

On the other hand, there are definitely idiot developers out there using spring. Should we say if you are using spring, you are an idiot?

I didn't say if you are not using spring, then you are an idiot.
Only idiot will think so. I said it is "useful" for smart developer.

And by saying Spring is only for smart developers, Rod himself just proved the point that, started as a simpler/easier alternative (or add-on) to EJB, Spring is quickly becoming another elephant.

yes, spring is an elephant for someone that doesn't know OO/Design Patterns at all.

This bazaar statement tries to imply that if you are not using spring, you are not a smart developer.On the other hand, there are definitely idiot developers out there using spring. Should we say if you are using spring, you are an idiot?

I didn't say if you are not using spring, then you are an idiot.Only idiot will think so. I said it is "useful" for smart developer.

Trying to deny what you said, you are makeing yourself a coward.

This bazaar statement tries to imply that if you are not using spring, you are not a smart developer.On the other hand, there are definitely idiot developers out there using spring. Should we say if you are using spring, you are an idiot?

I didn't say if you are not using spring, then you are an idiot.Only idiot will think so. I said it is "useful" for smart developer.

Trying to deny what you said, you are makeing yourself a coward.

It is hardly denying what one said when one quotes himself.

This bazaar statement tries to imply that if you are not using spring, you are not a smart developer.On the other hand, there are definitely idiot developers out there using spring. Should we say if you are using spring, you are an idiot?

I didn't say if you are not using spring, then you are an idiot.Only idiot will think so. I said it is "useful" for smart developer.

Trying to deny what you said, you are makeing yourself a coward.

It is hardly denying what one said when one quotes himself.

Mark, you either didnt bother to or pretend you didnt read that one's ogiginal email.

This bazaar statement tries to imply that if you are not using spring, you are not a smart developer.On the other hand, there are definitely idiot developers out there using spring. Should we say if you are using spring, you are an idiot?

I didn't say if you are not using spring, then you are an idiot.Only idiot will think so. I said it is "useful" for smart developer.

Trying to deny what you said, you are makeing yourself a coward.

It is hardly denying what one said when one quotes himself.

Mark, you either didnt bother to or pretend you didnt read that one's ogiginal email.

Oh, I did. And I am sorry that you are literarily and grammatically challenged. :(

This bazaar statement tries to imply that if you are not using spring, you are not a smart developer.On the other hand, there are definitely idiot developers out there using spring. Should we say if you are using spring, you are an idiot?

I didn't say if you are not using spring, then you are an idiot.Only idiot will think so. I said it is "useful" for smart developer.

Trying to deny what you said, you are makeing yourself a coward.

It is hardly denying what one said when one quotes himself.

Mark, you either didnt bother to or pretend you didnt read that one's ogiginal post.

Colin,Did I hit a raw nerve, or is this something you keep hearingfrom others aswell. You must encounter similar opinions for you to react that way you have. Its not that I don't think spring has a place in the java world, of course I do, but it has been removed from our architecture as a dependance. We are not using Gerongo either, but instead WebLogic platform for its integration support between systems. Sorry if you got offended, but for production systems and development to support it, we would rather choose the right tools, rather than what the current perceived tech trend is.Spring is an elephant, and Gerongo is really a non starter when it comes to business critical systems.Have fun!

I'll chime in. We've won business because of our ability to turn out quality software as a result of using Spring. Spring has help put money in my pocket, as well as that of other developers, which appears to be more than some are capable of doing.

I say don't use Spring. I'm saving for a boat!

Colin,Did I hit a raw nerve, or is this something you keep hearingfrom others aswell. You must encounter similar opinions for you to react that way you have. Its not that I don't think spring has a place in the java world, of course I do, but it has been removed from our architecture as a dependance. We are not using Gerongo either, but instead WebLogic platform for its integration support between systems. Sorry if you got offended, but for production systems and development to support it, we would rather choose the right tools, rather than what the current perceived tech trend is.Spring is an elephant, and Gerongo is really a non starter when it comes to business critical systems.Have fun!

I'll chime in. We've won business because of our ability to turn out quality software as a result of using Spring. Spring has help put money in my pocket, as well as that of other developers, which appears to be more than some are capable of doing.I say don't use Spring. I'm saving for a boat!

EJB had also helped many people put money into pocket (including Ted himself). That did not contradicting the EJB elephant theory.

Colin,Did I hit a raw nerve, or is this something you keep hearingfrom others aswell. You must encounter similar opinions for you to react that way you have. Its not that I don't think spring has a place in the java world, of course I do, but it has been removed from our architecture as a dependance. We are not using Gerongo either, but instead WebLogic platform for its integration support between systems. Sorry if you got offended, but for production systems and development to support it, we would rather choose the right tools, rather than what the current perceived tech trend is.Spring is an elephant, and Gerongo is really a non starter when it comes to business critical systems.Have fun!

I'll chime in. We've won business because of our ability to turn out quality software as a result of using Spring. Spring has help put money in my pocket, as well as that of other developers, which appears to be more than some are capable of doing.I say don't use Spring. I'm saving for a boat!

EJB had also helped many people put money into pocket (including Ted himself). That did not contradicting the EJB elephant theory.

No, but it does tell me that Spring is more useful than you and your opinion. Who would I'd rather listen to? The mouthy guy who's written nothing of consequence that I've seen, or the project that allows me to live in the manner to which I've become accustomed?

Here is a hint...not the mouthy guy.

Colin,Did I hit a raw nerve, or is this something you keep hearingfrom others aswell. You must encounter similar opinions for you to react that way you have. Its not that I don't think spring has a place in the java world, of course I do, but it has been removed from our architecture as a dependance. We are not using Gerongo either, but instead WebLogic platform for its integration support between systems. Sorry if you got offended, but for production systems and development to support it, we would rather choose the right tools, rather than what the current perceived tech trend is.Spring is an elephant, and Gerongo is really a non starter when it comes to business critical systems.Have fun!

I'll chime in. We've won business because of our ability to turn out quality software as a result of using Spring. Spring has help put money in my pocket, as well as that of other developers, which appears to be more than some are capable of doing.I say don't use Spring. I'm saving for a boat!

EJB had also helped many people put money into pocket (including Ted himself). That did not contradicting the EJB elephant theory.

No, but it does tell me that Spring is more useful than you and your opinion. Who would I'd rather listen to? The mouthy guy who's written nothing of consequence that I've seen, or the project that allows me to live in the manner to which I've become accustomed?Here is a hint...not the mouthy guy.

What was my oponion about Spring?

When I first read this thread, the only thing I saw was that a group of Spring fans tried to beat someone to death for merely saying Spring looks like elephant. He didn't even say it's a bad elephant or good elephant.

This is not middle east!!

Colin,Did I hit a raw nerve, or is this something you keep hearingfrom others aswell. You must encounter similar opinions for you to react that way you have. Its not that I don't think spring has a place in the java world, of course I do, but it has been removed from our architecture as a dependance. We are not using Gerongo either, but instead WebLogic platform for its integration support between systems. Sorry if you got offended, but for production systems and development to support it, we would rather choose the right tools, rather than what the current perceived tech trend is.Spring is an elephant, and Gerongo is really a non starter when it comes to business critical systems.Have fun!

I'll chime in. We've won business because of our ability to turn out quality software as a result of using Spring. Spring has help put money in my pocket, as well as that of other developers, which appears to be more than some are capable of doing.I say don't use Spring. I'm saving for a boat!

EJB had also helped many people put money into pocket (including Ted himself). That did not contradicting the EJB elephant theory.

No, but it does tell me that Spring is more useful than you and your opinion. Who would I'd rather listen to? The mouthy guy who's written nothing of consequence that I've seen, or the project that allows me to live in the manner to which I've become accustomed?Here is a hint...not the mouthy guy.

What was my oponion about Spring?When I first read this thread, the only thing I saw was that a group of Spring fans tried to beat someone to death for merely saying Spring looks like elephant. He didn't even say it's a bad elephant or good elephant.This is not middle east!!

The "you" wasn't you personally, but the general "you who fits the bill." My apologies for the confusion. However, I stand by my opinion of the mouthy guy.

Looks like the birth of another Elephant, just likeits parent.

Raymond,This message is obviously based on the same meticulous research and deep analysis as that behind all your other posts  https://www.theserverside.com/user/userthreads.tss?user_id=637313and is just as insightfull and thought providing.  It's become pretty clear by now that you have a deep hatred of Spring (and Geronimo it seems), without actually being able to communicate anything about the basis of those sentiments.If you can't add value, might I suggest you just stay out of the discussion? White noise posts like yours are part of what's turned TSS into a pale shadow of its former self...-- Colin SampaleanuPrincipal, Interface21Spring Training, Consulting and Support - "From the Source"http://www.interface21.com

+1

Looks like the birth of another Elephant, just likeits parent.

All you need to know about elephants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant

All you need to know about the Spring Framework:

http://www.springframework.org/

Hope this helps.

Who cares about rich clients now? There are tons of rich clients framework out there now. Everybody knows that the Buzzword(TM) of the year is Rich Internet Applications.
Came on spring boys, you can do way better than this!

I am using spring rich for two projects. If you need to use swing, then spring rich is the best option out there. If you can find a better lets get the discussion rolling! The binding, threading, event and many more areas that are often neglected when builing a rich client are all layed out in spring rich. Take a closer look before bashing it.

-Spring Rich User

I am a big fan of the IoC concept (and I use Spring for all my web applications), and for that reason I can't wait to get my teeth stuck into this for projects that require Swing.

For those of you that don't think that there is a place for Swing apps, I can only imagine that this means that you're not working on any projects that require a fat client. But whether you like to acknowledge it or not, they do exist.

Anyhow, with some of the advancements with GUI building, like with Matisse, fat clients written in Java might get a second wind.

If we could get a WYSIWYG editor with a layout manager as helpful as Matisse (i.e. Netbeans), that could also employ the IoC concept, then I see the potential for some truly great Java solutions.

+1, I have to agree with Matthew here

I seriously hope there'll be decent support for it, I'm talking about an active phpBB forum not those crappy GMANE or SF.net mailing lists .. and most importantly, that the project won't be 'abandoned' after a while, lead developers losing interest because they don't need rich-client stuff at work etc..

can anyone shed some light on this ? will it become an integral part of the Spring distribution ?

I wish these efforts are directed to provide a better abstraction for swing.

One of the primary aims of Spring Rich has always been to provide an abstraction atop the base Swing toolkit that improves developer productivity.

These abstractions can be seen now in this .1 release. The main ones include:
- a form builder framework (which builds on a data binding and validation library)
- a GUI command framework (which adapts Swing's Action construct to provide more power)
- General application lifecycle management facilities (startup, new window, shutdown)
- A general set of component factories, each serving as a controller to coordinate widget events with a backing model managed by Spring.

The last bullet is of particular interest from an architecture standpoint, as the framework presents a general strategy for MVC within a desktop app.

Congratulations to the Spring Rich community who worked hard on this release. It is a great milestone for the project.

Keith

I believe Spring Rich has its own value than others.
In fact, there is a good swing framework called JGoodies.
i am glad that I can have another choice.

btw, Keith, r u still in charge of Spring Rich ?
It is too late than your release plan.

best regards,

daikei
Architech Co., Ltd
http://www.archi-tech.info/

Hi,

I have been looking for a framework to help me in the design and implementation of a new Swing application. I am no expert in Swing applications, and that's one of the reasons I want to use a framework. I have been looking at SwingLabs and Spring RCP. Both seem to be very good.

I think the documentation for Spring RCP is scarce, or I have been looking in the wrong place. It would be nice to have some examples, tutorials and JavaDocs. Another thing that I need but I am not sure is supported by Spring RCP, is tabular data binding.

If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would appretiate it.

Congrats to the Spring team for this milestone.

Mauricio L.

I have been looking for a framework to help me in the design and implementation of a new Swing application. I am no expert in Swing applications, and that's one of the reasons I want to use a framework. I have been looking at SwingLabs and Spring RCP. Both seem to be very good.I think the documentation for Spring RCP is scarce, or I have been looking in the wrong place. It would be nice to have some examples, tutorials and JavaDocs. Another thing that I need but I am not sure is supported by Spring RCP, is tabular data binding.If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would appretiate it.

Check out TikeSwing. The documentation is not perfect, but demo applications and users guide (included in distribution package) should quickly give you overall impression (if the framework is something that could help you).

I'm not sure what you mean by tabular data binding, but if this is not in TikeSwing I can implement it for you :)

Tomi

Hi Tomi,

I will take a look at your framework, I am downloading it right now, thanks.

I have seen that some frameworks support form data binding, which I understand is something like JSF binding. What I mean by tabular data binding, is being able to have POJO's bound to your table, and having the framework work all the magic for you, and by that I mean updating the POJO's, validation and conversion of data, etc. Another thing that I would like to have is master/detail support using tables, this is having a table with the master data and another table with the detail data.

Regards,

Mauricio L.

Mauricio,

TikeSwing connects JTable to POJO collection and handles lots of "magic" (updating POJOs when editing, formatting, validation support etc.). I actually wrote the framework, because I didn't find any framework to provide this stuff.

There is no direct master/detail table support in the framework, but implementing the functionality should not be too hard (add two tables in a view and handle master table selection events in a controller). However, it might be a good idea to create some kind of template for this in the framework.

Tomi

Mauricio,TikeSwing connects JTable to POJO collection and handles lots of "magic" (updating POJOs when editing, formatting, validation support etc.). I actually wrote the framework, because I didn't find any framework to provide this stuff. There is no direct master/detail table support in the framework, but implementing the functionality should not be too hard (add two tables in a view and handle master table selection events in a controller). However, it might be a good idea to create some kind of template for this in the framework. Tomi

Tomi,

That is basically what I need. Some sort of master/detail implementation would be a nice addition to the framework:). I will definitely take a look at your framework.

Thanks a lot,

Mauricio

I think you should check SwingLabs project.

http://swinglabs.org/docs/components/DataSet/index.jsp


-----
Gustavo

Personally, I say kudos to Spring RCP for reenergizing the java on the desktop space. Sun has dropped the ball on this, to me this is clear. Remember all of the promises of JNDC? A co-worker of mine thinks that companies like Jide are in trouble. Not me, they make great widgets, and I don't want to build my own. What I do need is the ability to write a Java Swing application that accesses my backend app servers without pulling my hair out ;-). I'm not sure that Eclipse RCP or netbeans cut it to be honest. Spring seems to have a knack at making complex stuff simpler, so hopefully Spring RCP will do the same.

I have been keeping an eye on Spring's RCP for a while now.
The impression I get is that what the project needs is proper
documentation. I beleive one of the reasons why Spring (the framework) became popular was the fact that it had a great user manual. Spring RCP has many useful features but most are
hidden in the code and not documented. I also feel that by
spending effort in documenting this project will allow for any inconsistencies, duplication and bad design to be ironed out making this as sucessful as the framework.
Sure there are sample applications and you can always dig around the code, but that takes a lot of time. If I ever decide to use this project I hope to help provide some of the documentation.

I have given up on swing/swt on desktop as I feel there are better alternatives available today

In the past year or so, DHTML widgets and CSS have almost caught up to anything that swing& swt can deliver on the desktop.

Jetty+ any MVC(Tapestry/SpringMVC/Struts. etc) provides a lightweight framework of which you can hang all your screens.

There is no need to learn another API -- the stuff you learnt for serverside Application can be easily applied for your desktop application.

You can move the application from the server to the desktop with little effort

How does Spring RCP compare to Eclipse RCP?

We am currently developing an application using Eclipse RCP and so far it has been fantastic. This particular application is not data-base centric, thus there is no ORM, etc...

What would be some advantages of Spring RCP?

Steven Punte
Test Lens

I work with sw development since 1997 and after 1999 only with web apps. This is the 1st time I'm constructing a real rich client. Who only knows web rich client surelly don't know the real complexity of an rich client.
I'm using Spring-RCP since feb/2004 and now I see I choose the best option. The only thing I miss is the documentation.
Spring-RCP is great, many thanks for Spring-RCP team and contributors!