Hard Core Tech Talk with Tyler Jewell on Web Services

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News: Hard Core Tech Talk with Tyler Jewell on Web Services

  1. Hard Core Tech Talk with Tyler Jewell on Web Services (19 messages)

    A new Tech Talk with Tyler Jewell, Technical Evangelist at BEA Systems, has been posted on TheServerSide. In this interview Tyler looks at two different models for doing Web services Development. He describes how Weblogic Workshop generates J2EE apps, and the use of Java Doc in JWS and Control files. He compares BEA's product stack to IBM's, and predicts the outcome of 'J2EE vs .NET'.

    Watch Tyler Jewell's Interview Here.

    Threaded Messages (19)

  2. Can someone sum up Tyler's salient points in text here. I'm on Mac OSX. I just read that Gosling is moving over to the Mac for his personal dev machine. That platform is taking off. Why doesn't TSS support it? It's UNIX, ya know.
  3. Like in the last interview, Tyler provides interesting architecture infos.

    In many blogs one reads TSS became mildly said "lame". I think at least this interview isn't. And I also enjoyed, how Tyler manages to talk so extensively about what we non-evangelists call "wsdl2java" and "java2wsdl" :)

    Also, the brighter light proves well, compared to the Eduardo-interview (Martha Stewart anybody?)

  4. Hi,

    I'm getting a little confused by all these different roles.

    In the talk, we have "application developers" and "J2EE developers", but I remember reading an EJB spec and seeing "bean provider", "assembler" and "deployer".

    Wasn't EJB supposed to separate business logic concerns from infrastructure concerns?

    I can understand how web service orchestration (or business process logic) might be an additional "role", but it seems to me that there is a fair degree of overlap between the JWS view of business logic and the EJB view.

    Given that two ways of creating web services are presented, isn't it essential that designers or architects define how and where the business logic should be implemented? I'd be really interested in any views/patterns that anyone has for this.

    I am concerned that there is the possibility that tools like WLW and VS.Net will encourage development teams to do most, if not all, of their business logic as web services, and, to me, this doesn't seem to be a good idea.

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

    Carl

  5. <quote>
    I'm getting a little confused by all these different roles.
    </quote>

    IMHO these assumed roles in the EJB spec don't exist in the real world: There are developers, and in larger teams there are deployers. I don't see "assemblers" anywhere around.

    <quote>
    I am concerned that there is the possibility that tools like WLW and VS.Net will encourage development teams to do most, if not all, of their business logic as web services, and, to me, this doesn't seem to be a good idea.
    </quote>

    I don't like the narrow-minded silver bullet approach where some wonder infrastructure dictates your system structure: formerly "write every business logic as EJB", nowadays "write every business logic as Web Service".

    So I fully agree: Business logic should be written as reusable Java classes. EJB's declarative transactions lack power in the absence of "assemblers". So plain Java classes that access JNDI resources and programmatically declare JTA transactions are fine for me.

    Thus, I think that Web Services should be written according to what Tyler mentions as "other" approach: Start with your business logic. Then either write your internal user interface, or expose some functionality to external clients, be it via SOAP/WSDL, other HTTP-based protocols like Caucho's Hessian/Burlap, or RMI.

    Juergen
  6. Web service orchestration is indeed a separate layer. Many applications now become process-centric and that orchestration logic cannot be handled by existing J2EE constructs.

    Orchestration, Workflow, Business Process, Collaxa

    Cheers.

    Jill.
  7. Reply to BEA[ Go to top ]

    Get Compuware's OptimalView Web Portal. It is light yet feature rich. It is inexpensive compared to many of the most popular portals.

    While your at it, get OptimalJ-- it takes an MDA approch to developing complete working J2EE applications without all the infrastructure headaches associated with J2EE architecture!
  8. He's young. He's smart. And he gets _paid_ to talk about J2EE. This guy rocks! ;-)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  9. <quote>Weblogic Workshop is a development framework and at the core of Weblogic Workshop we have a way of describing a Web service in a very simple term, and it's a Java file. But that Java file in that format, we are very proud to announce that it's part of the Java Community Process and so it's going to be pushed into standardization. </quote>

    Am I the only person to dislike this approach taken by BEA here: because they have implemented a certain piece of functionality in a certain way, it should automatically be accepted by the JCP? Doesn't this pose a sincere threat to the Java/J2EE community's credibility?

    Rik
  10. Uhm, why? It's not standard yet, they are just pushing it to become a standard. If it is a piece of crap, the Java community can come up with something better. BEA is not JCP, they are just contributing to JCP.
  11. BEA have to survive!!!!!. Dude, except BEA app server, don't believe on any other products from that company. Everything a one or another way very shitttttttttyyyyyyy
  12. <quote>Weblogic Workshop is a development framework and at the core of Weblogic Workshop we have a way of describing a Web service in a very simple term, and it's a Java file. But that Java file in that format, we are very proud to announce that it's part of the Java Community Process and so it's going to be pushed into standardization. </quote>

    Resource: JSR-175

    http://www.jcp.org/jsr/detail/175.jsp

    {{

    There has been a growing trend towards annotating fields, methods, and classes as having particular attributes that indicate they should be processed in special ways by development tools, deployment tools, or run-time libraries. We call such annotations metadata.

    [...]

    }}
  13. Hey everyone. I appreciate the feedback on the interview. Doing these with TSS is always a lot of fun at JavaOne.

    Anyways, I'd like to address some of the earlier concerns:

    <EARLIER>
    I am concerned that there is the possibility that tools like WLW and VS.Net will encourage development teams to do most, if not all, of their business logic as web services, and, to me, this doesn't seem to be a good idea.
    </EARLIER>

    What BEA is saying is that different developers have different motivation: some have the time and resources to do a full-on J2EE project from scratch. However, there are those developers who want to do rapid integration & business logic in the enterprise quickly, yet do not have the time to fully invest in doing straight J2EE.

    WebLogic Workshop allows developers to focus on the core business logic. The Web Service is generated as a valid J2EE application, which is what a number of companies wanted: the comfort and security of knowing that the underlying implementation is J2EE, but the focus placed elsewhere.

    Workshop is quite unique because it does allow for J2EE architects to insert their particular infrastructure needs where appropriate. EJBs, JMS, JCA, JDBC, etc. can all be imported through the control abstraction layer. It is in this way that an architect can control the overall system, yet allow two seemingly different developer groups to effectively work together.

    Tyler
  14. Did you ever read Oracle Magazine???. It will be nice to read some time, cuz they fuz around BEA all time, In recent copy they have a comparizon between Oracle Web server vices and BEA Web services model. According to them they have only one tick mark for BEA and Oracle do a number of other features.

    Regarding your comment on BEA providing easy all these service suite to help companies those don't have much technical team to write core J2EE codes. I think BEA started Portal service with same idea, right!!. BEA argue that companies can create J2EE certified portal applications within 3 months from BEA portal frame work with less man power and resources.
       Did you guys ever thought about how big and complicated your portal frame work and how many easy way out there to write a portal application in MVC model.
       When ever you guys write some properatory models in java and label it with J2EE( cuz it has only jsp,bean, etc j2EE components) PLEASE DOUBLE THINK WHETHER THE APPLICATIONS ARE LIGHT MODEL, EASY TO DEPLOY, PORTABILITY, MAINTENABILITY ETCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC.
       PLEASE CONCENTRATE THAT AREA INSTEAD OF BLINDING CUSTOMERS WITH J2EE LABEL.
       ALSO THERE ARE 1000000S OF J2EE APPLICATION DEVELOPERS AROUND THE WORLD WHO CAN WRITE VERY NICE, LIGHT MODEL J2EE APPLICATIONS. I DON'T THINK THEY NEED SOME HEAVY LOADED JAVA BUNDLES FROM BOULDER COLORADO TO SAVE TIME AND EFFORT FOR COMPANIES TO MOVE INTO J2EE AND WEB SERVICES.
       
  15. Hough, TQ, somebody is losing it here. What's the reason about getting angry at BEA? If you think, it is too difficult a platform for you to handle, you don't need to use it. I think it is very easy:
    - If you have reasons that you like BEA and have to ability to communicate those reasons to management (to get the dollars), then you will end up using BEA (+the tools like Cajun, which some people including me find just great.
    - If you dislike BEA for some reason and you cannot argue against the reasons your company has to use BEA, then your arguments might not be so strong as you think.

    Regarding the split of J2EE/Middleware and application developer. That has been a good idea for quite some time now - Microsoft is very successful in it with VB.

    endofyetanothergetthejobdoneandfreedomofchoicepost
    -thebob.

    PS: Maybe you take the left finger of caps lock on the next post. It makes not only an easier read.
  16. Hey you wanna know how BEA can kill their customer with J2EE label????

     I never used their web service modules, but getting paid for working with their colored portal framework. If you like them that much, here you gooooooooooo and enjoy bugy BEA portal.

    I think BEA guys are always telling go ahead and implement their new version. I am working with BEA portal( Previous name WLCS & WLps) since version 2.1. I don't think BEA have done some major changes except coloring that products with some worst tools like EBCC.
    1. BEA portal is too expenssive
    2. Work Only with BEA weblogic application Server
    3. BEA portal is heavy application
    4. And while intruducing new versions, they make is more and more Heavy.
    5. Each module like portal and commerce is packed with huge number of EJBs and Taglibs, so that deployment time in a reasonable network enabled production system is like 25 minutes which is not acceptable for a web application
    6. Hard coded use of resource names like commerce connection pool. BEA Developer even think hard coding resource names in Java code is the best way to do programming in this world, Isn't it a new IDEA? :))
    7. BEA Engineers still trying to figure out how to use their EBCC in a corporate environment where multiple business associates have to manage and modify different portal attributes( like campign, roles, segments, entitlments etc ) at same time. Right now if you allow multiple Business associates( people with less java knowledge and more business knowledge about the company) to use EBBC for live update and sink with production bea portal.100% sure business will be down for another one week till IT team to understand what XML file went Wrong.

    8. BEA Executing a huge number SQL statements with out any reason for building each portal page. USE SQL monitor available for free down load as a weblogic plugin, and watch against WEblogic portal. It will be funny and surprise that BEA developers are very funny guys not even understanding that an application pumping to Database and heating that box for each and everything is not something people like in current market.

    9. There will be a number of bugs and errors you guys will be facing like (UNABLE TO RETRIEVE PORTAL STATE FROM PORTAL MANAGER, WHAT THE HECK!!!!!!!!!!) during a six months development time. This is periodic, and I have been seeing this since version 2.0. all my 4 projects in BEA portal have faced 10 bugs in each six months duration.

    10. In a low profiled financial budget, after paying a huge amount for BEA license, Each developer have to sleep in front of their Pentium 2 processor corporate work station to restart the BEA portal 10 times during each day developement activities.

    11. When are they going to learn and change the deployments orders of their components inside BEA stock portal and WLCs applications so that they can assure that it will run without "Class not found" or unable to deploy EJBs error!!!!!

    12. Why the hell their DataSync components run behind each and every component deployments in a web application, is there no easy way to make a sync servlet which run only one time for a web application instead going behind each components of a web application like devil from Boulder colorado to each BEA portal customers!!!!!!?. Guys i think J2EE is advanced and a way around there, if you are not using BEA portal.

    13. Cluster feature with BEA portal. Recently I am facing one more devil, In a pentium 4 dual processor, 4GB RAM machine running with two WLS instances, if you ever try to hot deploy the portal (Heavy junk), after 20 minutes of waiting time frame, they kill one of the clustered instance and finally deploy into the second one. I need to do some heavy research what weblogic is doing in 20 minutes and why my one instance is dieing , but i am sure something has to be done with this heavy structure of portal enterprise application.

    14 Ever tried their Unified User profile??. Telling me to write EJBs and make reference to that in their usrmgmt,jar file? Funny, is that a new discovery as BEA developer claim from their office. Any J2EE developer can create such a unified user profile in this world like that.
       writting Ejbs for each different type of data sources and brining them together through a top level controlling bean is not a big deal. If they have something like, specify my different data source for my Uinified User Profile, and their component will build that together, it will be good.

    15. BEA guys, please don't tell me, Go and dowlload portal 7.0 and it is very NEW AND A LOTTTTTTTTTT OF NEW FEATURES, I AM HEARING THIS FROM THAT PRODUCTS CHILDHOOD TIME, SINCE 1997.
       J2EE developers, let us go and search for some light, smart portal web application which will run with any j2EE specified app server.


    BEA STARTED DEVELOPING PORTAL, WEB SERVICES, RECENTLY EVEN TRYING TO OVER TAKE SUN BY NEW JDK :)) WITH A PROPER KNOWLEDGE THEY LEARNED FROM DOT COM CRASHES, SURVIVING IN MARKET WITH JUST AN APPLICATION SERVER IS NOT EASY WITH OUT PROPER DATABASE AND HARDWARE SERVER BUSINESS, CUZ THERE WILL BE A NUMBER OF OPEN SOURCE VENDORS IN MARKET WITH FREE APPLICATION SERVER VERY SOON , WHO CAN EVEN OVER TAKE BEA. BUT UNFORTUNATLY BEA IS DEVELOPING THEIR OWN IDEAS AND TRYING TO LABEL IT WITH J2EE( A J2EE SOLUTION WHICH WILL RUN ONLY IN THEIR SERVER, FUNNY ISN'T IT??) ONLY BOULDER AND SAN JOSE OFFICE KNOW THAT TECHNOLOGY.
       BEA PORTAL IS JUST AN EXAMPLE AND EVEN A NUMBER OF INDUSTRY LEADER HAVE ALREADY COMMENTED, THIS WEB SERVICE BUSINESS WAS THEIR IN MARKET IN LAST 20 YEARS IN ONE OR ANOTHER FORM. SINCE WE WOULD LIKE TO IMPLEMENT OUR WEB SERVICE INTO OUT J2EE FRAME WORK, DO WE HAVE TO FOLLOW BEA'S PROPERATOTY MODULES AND STRUCK WITH THEIR WAY???.
    DOUBLE THINK!!!
     
  17. Maybe you should checkout something like Jakarta Jetspeed. Or Rickard at dreambean.com was recently announcing some portal server he developed.
  18. Without regard to the technical content (which I'm sure is predominantly correct), I'm a little disappointed with Tyler's interview. I've heard alot about him, but never "seen" him in person. He comes across as a "sales type" ie.- he uses all the buzz words, but they seem to roll off his lips like marketing hype as opposed to nuggets of Java wisdom. I understand that his title is "technical evangelist" not "senior developer"... and now I know why. I spend so much time wading through J2EE (that's jay-two-e-e, which is a syllable more efficient than jay-two-double-e) sales and marketing hype, that I'd really like to get back to what really matters... specific technical information expressed in terms that the people who matter (architects and developers) can use to learn and be persuaded. Let's get another interview with Cedric Beust and get back to what this site is all about, the best J2EE *developers* resource on the net!

    -w9
  19. I don't know if its Larry's influence or what, but reading Oracle Magazine definitely has its SIDE-EFFECTS!
  20. :-)