Discussions

News: Overview of XML and Web services Support in J2EE 1.4

  1. A new article on Java World does a good job covering the XML and Web Services support provided by the J2EE 1.4 specification (currently in proposed final draft 2 stage). "Developers frustrated by the observation that J2EE seems to grow more complicated with every revision will appreciate the simplicity and familiarity of J2EE 1.4's Web services programming model."

    Read Sun boosts enterprise Java.

    Threaded Messages (16)

  2. I applaud the effort made by Sun and the JCP process to take steps forward to address many of the common issues presented to developers who are trying to deploy web services applications; however, Sun continues to play the catch up game. WORA can appear to be great for many developers; but, at what cost? Many of us who have been with Java for several years now are finding it too burdensome. Microsoft, with dot net, is taking the pragmatic approach to developing a user friendly and easy to use framework for writing web services. Why can't Sun do the same? Is it just pure arrogance that "we are so much better than them." The tools for developing java and j2ee based applications need to be improved and well integrated like the Visual.NET tools. The specs need to be better and easier to use, and scalability cannot be a second thought or lest us find java in the same camp as smalltalk. The JCP needs to continue its work forward; but the participants need to take a hard look at the merits that Microsoft has with respect to its .NET framework and the ease of use of .NET for developing enterprise class applications.
  3. Why does everyone say the Sun based programming model is complex? I have been using Java for the last 4 years and I do not find them hard at all! It is extremely easy with the vendor based tools to develop and deploy Web Services. BEA has already implemented a simple version of exposing Stateless Session Beans as Web Service end points. The specification and programming model developed through JCP is not address all the problems, it is the responsibility of the Vendors to make it easy for the developers. That way you build an industry of best of the breed vendors that make a programmers life easier compared to a single company promising to do that. I agree there are a number of things within the J2EE programming model but it is not the responsibility of every programmer to understand or use every aspect of J2EE that is where role based developement comes into play...If you want to be an Architect then the onus is on you to understand and evaluate all the technologie. So, lets stop taking about how Sun has made it hard for everyone to build systems...please, if there is anything that Sun has done it has built an industry of excellent companies that make my life easier while building business applications...I am not sure if I can say the same about other companies who promise great things but ask you to pay TOLL for everything that you use from them...
  4. People find it complex because they do not want to pay for the tools to create the applications properly.
  5. Michael -
    I personally find Java and the J2EE specs quite easy to digest and use and I find that the tools available to do my work are excellent (IDEA,Eclipse,Ant,etc).

    People always want J2EE to develop along the Microsoft paradigm. But the nature of the Java community and how it evolves doesn't lend itself to that approach, and hopefully never will.

    Java is an effort by a large comunity of diverse interests. As such, they are more diverse in their approach to enterprise solutions than you would find in a single-company, single-vision endeavour. The tools are representative of the community from which they evolve. Microsoft is chanting the mantra of web services in, it seems, everything they do, the J2EE community sees web services as just one more tool in the approach to solving enterprise problems. The tools and specs will always remain different.

    Cheers
    Ray
  6. Hello Ray,

    I am not trying to bash or beat up Java. I just enjoy having an open and unemotional debate about how to develop and keep Java/ J2EE competitive with other offerings on the market. For highly motivated professional engineers, I do not believe that java is terribly difficulty to pickup and understand. My main issue is with regard to how quickly Visual Studio.NET developers can put together powerful applications in a limited amount of time. As with the previous replies, there are issues that will be present due to some of the tradeoffs made by .NET; however, there are beginning to be significant applications developed and deployed based upon the MS framework. With all of us, time to market is one of our major drivers behind innovation for our business applications. Having a competitor beat us to market can only cause us to fall behind the competition and then find ourselves out of the market. Observing the merits behind the "hows" and "whys" of Microsoft (or others) can only help in the JCP process and hopefully produce a platform that does not limit our abilities to deliver highly valuable solutions in a timely manner.

    As a side note, I agree that there are some amazing tools that have been developed for Java such as IntelliJ IDEA, Eclipse, Struts, etc.

    Tale care,
    Michael
  7. Hi Michael

    <quote>
    I am not trying to bash or beat up Java.
    </quote>

    I know - sorry if it sounded it like I thought you were.

    Cheers
    Ray
  8. Michael, I agree totally with what you said. I too am worried when I see the speed at which .Net developers can build their applications.

    Sun + the other vendors should make things simpler and also work well. Sun has got a knack for making things more and more complicated than it should be. and what is more dangerous is SUN's attitude that they know all and don't listen to the soldiers out there who are fighting to maintain Java as number one... That's why Microsoft will trounce us eventually.

    For a simple example, look at JSP. Other people have to "fix" jsp by coming out with struts and then another "fix" again with JSF. Now people have to learn/understand the 3 t to get something out. Sure people will say you don't have to use all 3, then why do we have the other "fixes" ?

    another example remember Swing and IBM's swt ??? It is a konwn fact how ugly and slow swing is. This is not the way to go.

    Sun have to watch and learn what the others are doing successfully. even if the others happened to be Microsoft.
  9. Really?[ Go to top ]

    In what ways does Struts or even JSF "fix" JSPs? I guess I must be living under a rock.

    Swing is ugly? I actually find Swing quite elegant in most respects, and I like the idea of pluggable look and feels. It does tend to result in sluggish GUIs in the hands of most developers, but I doubt this will be an issue for much longer. The only component technology I have liked better so far is Borland's VCL for Delphi. SWT is hardly a triumph over Swing. There are pros and cons to using each one of them due to their fundamentally different approaches. Choose wisely.

    .Net developers are no more productive than J2EE developers. Sure, I may be able to slap a couple of forms together more quickly or spit out an utterly useless web service, but what then? If you think Visual Studio is going to magically create a well-designed, scalable, and maintainable application for you, then you are in for a rude awakening. These concerns are where most development time goes, and no IDE on this planet will help you there - at least, not yet.

    Seriously, can we stop making such patently false generalizations? I guess the only thing I agree with you on is that we can learn a lot by observing what others have done successfully.
  10. I personally find web services easy to develop with Java. Look at Axis for example - very easy. There are tools out there that let you expose any Java interface as a web service with a push of a button - very easy.

    J2EE is not particularly difficult to learn. It is overwhelming for a newbie for sure but I do not think .NET will be any easier for the average VB developer who does not understand basic object oriented concepts even. They have to tackle not only the new way of developing software but a new API as well. The crying game about .NET will begin when they need to build the real applications.
  11. Michael,

    If you haven't had a chance, see the new BEA workshop product that comes with the BEA 7.0 platform. A quote from someone who has used it was something like: "I can't imagine how it could be any easier."

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  12. Cameron,
    Could we use BEA workshop on any Java application server ?

    Paul
  13. Paul: "Could we use BEA workshop on any Java application server?"

    That's a good question. When BEA was touting it originally, it sounded like that would be possible, maybe with a little bit of work. I don't know of anyone who has tried, though.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  14. Maybe it's just a dream; but, if someone could create a J2EE IDE for the masses a la Visual.NET, then Java might break MS's stranglehold on the client. I think this is significant because MS plans to leverage the client base(98%) to take over the server market. It may seem far- fetched; but look at Netscape , Palm Pilot and Apple. Thank God for Linux, Open Source and Java.
  15. please try the pramati Studio 3.0 sp4 for complete IDE for J2EE , includes new ejb 2.0 specification changes

    Durga
  16. IntelliJ Idea is great! I just wish it had a GUI builder for those of us who create rich clients.
  17. Until the 1.4 comes, an easy way to publish your java services as web services is Glue (The mind electric product). I am working for a big european bank and we success in publishing Java services on Weblogic, Websphere (NT, and Mainframe) with the same code. I hope that J2EE 1.4 implementation will be as easy as GLue.

    Paul