Enterprise Software Stock Analyst favours BEA and Borland

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News: Enterprise Software Stock Analyst favours BEA and Borland

  1. The outlook of the enterprise market from the perspective of investment analyst David Breiner of Bear Stears has been published in which he discusses the market and his firm's recommendations, some of them falling on players within the J2EE space, which may be of interest to TSS members.

    In the interview, Breiner says that BEA "enjoys some competitive advantages" that make it a better investment for the eventual economic upturn. Reasons include that "they are not tied to other businesses like some of their competitors" and that "they also have a more integrated product architecture".

    Breiner says that "Borland is now the last truly independent development tools provider of any note", which the analyst says is an advantage because of their believe that "there is a healthy segment of customers that want to buy tools from a vendor that is unlikely to favor one deployment platform - an operating system, database or application server - over another".

    Of Web Services, Breiner whimsically puts it that "the Web services concept is generating interest, but we don't expect it to generate a lot of purchase orders in the near term.".

    Read Enterprise Software Stock Analysis.

    Threaded Messages (33)

  2. I quite not agree with the Borland Theroy.

    Generally the expectation now is that you go to a Vendor for Software Infrastucture and the tools are probably free or at minimalist cost.
  3. Hello Niraj,

    You don't agree that Borland's tools are worth it?

    Well, what "vendor" gives you a great tool for free or at minimal cost?

    Please, give some evidence of your opinion, I hope you are not speaking of Oracle - If so, don't reply.
  4. Hi
    have not used it before, but products wise it has application server + toplink + database as an integrated platform.

    Could anyone who have used these products comment ?

    thank you
  5. Borland Theory : disagree[ Go to top ]

    The only reason to use JBuilder is to do Swing or EJB. Not too many people are doing Swing now so that leaves EJB. If EJB becomes less popular in the future (which I think is very possible, in favor of JDO but that's another topic) then JBuilder won't have much marketshare.

    Also as someone who used JBuilder for several years, I haven't seen much innovation coming out of Borland. They increment their version numbers to force customers into buying upgrades. Often bug fixes aren't released until the next major upgrade. My impression was they were just trying to do as little work as possible and keep the upgrade cycle continuing.

    Also many people are switching from JBuilder to Eclipse. That's what I did on my last project and saved my employer thousands of dollars.

    Their PC development tools, Delphi and C++ Builder are great, but face competition from the new .NET products from Microsoft.

    In my opinion Borland is risky.
  6. Tried Pramati?[ Go to top ]

    George,

    You tried Pramati? They have a good development studio and i believe it does not cost too much..

    I alternate between JBuilder and Pramati

    Rob
  7. Tools are free[ Go to top ]

    You're right, Niraj. The OSS movement is providing better tools than the Big-Venders (sorry guys). Ant: the most useful and probably most-used piece of Java freeware.

    Ant makes developing Java on the command-line reasonable. What did Sun think we should be using for this? Make, makedepend... software developed at MIT for X11? Out-of-touch.

    The useful OSS tool list grows larger everyday. Of course, that's because Java hackers build what they need, and they need tools.

    It's amazing how the focus changes in the OSS community. Big-Vendors should definitely beware. Soon enough everything Java will have an OSS counterpart and the bottom may well fall out.

    I always wonder how these OSS developers pay their bills. Did they all work for Netscape before Sun/AOL destroyed them?
  8. <quote>Breiner says that BEA "enjoys some competitive advantages" that make it a better investment for the eventual economic upturn.</quote>

    What competitive advantages? They charge by the CPU and JBoss is 100% free. In my opinion BEA put all its eggs in one basket and open source is poking a whole in the bottom. Everything will fall out sooner or later.
  9. Open source will not kill BEA or any other enterprise class app server. Unlike web servers, people are using these app servers for transactional work. Like with Oracle in the RDBMS world, enterprises will pay for the piece of mind. Period. A great parallel is wondering why people aren't using MySQL instead of Oracle? It's the piece of mind issue.

    Will open source chop some business from BEA? Yeah. It already has. Look at their revenue Q-to-Q.. It's flat. That's because people were forced to buy app servers for every project before jboss/tomcat got decent. Now, they don't have to and BEA's growth is stalling. Nevertheless, it's still a $1bn revenue stream they're hooked on. That's not going away.
  10. Peace of Mind / mySql / Oracle[ Go to top ]

    "A great parallel is wondering why people aren't using MySQL instead of Oracle? It's the piece of mind issue."

    I recently talked to the CTO of a big German company who've built LARGE systems on Oracle. I asked him "the mySql question". He said "if we'd do it again from what we know now, we'd use mySql". Or, if you need transactional work: SAPDB.

    The high license fees of Oracle made quite a few people unhappy here. So, times are changing.

    Cheers,
        Henrik
        TNGtech
  11. "Also as someone who used JBuilder for several years, I haven't seen much innovation coming out of Borland. They increment their version numbers to force customers into buying upgrades. "

    how can you write such a thing?
    From JBuilder5 too JBuider8,there have been such a number of modifications and ameliorations,
    I have never seen with any other tool.
    The prize is an another thing,
    but the tool in itself is first rate
  12. Hi,

    I really like all the OSS software and we - banking - are using a lot of them but I wonder if that model will work in future, too ?

    How are those OSS projects financed ?

    Will those OSS projects have the same energy they had the last years ?

    Now that everybody has to earn money again what's the direction OSS goes ?

    If I - today - rely on Tomcat, jBoss, Struts and even exchange jBuilder for an OSS plattform, what seems to be possible at the moment, what will be in two or three years, when our development unit heavily relies on all this stuff ?

    Any comments appreciated.

    Oliver.Lauer@sk-koeln.de
    Stadtsparkasse Cologne
    Germany
  13. "If I - today - rely on Tomcat, jBoss, Struts and even exchange jBuilder for an OSS plattform, what seems to be possible at the moment, what will be in two or three years, when our development unit heavily relies on all this stuff ?"

    I guess TomCat is not a big issue because it is the official implementation of a widespread standard. JBoss is not such a big issue too for the same reason, even though it is not J2EE 1.3-certified and won't be J2EE 1.4 if they don't provide any full EJB 2.1 implementation with web services support. I have very easily migrated a JBoss 3 application to WebLogic and iAS as a proof-of-concept. Struts is different because it is not an official standard, yet it is a de-facto standard, which again limits the risk. Risk would be greater with WebMacro, WebWork or Velocity because these OSS lack a strong developers base. JBuilder is not really an issue as it concerns nothing specifically critical: code developed with it can be opened with any other tool and you can always change your UML editor or regenerate it from the code using the same approach in another tool. Note than JSR-198 is the most serious attempt to standardise IDEs. In short, none of the issues you quote is really a lock-in, nor is likely to cause huge problems in the future should you decide to change, apart from yet other learning curves.

    You'd rather need to think twice before selecting a larger system like a portal, integration, publishing or CMS system. Many will be the legacy systems of the future and existing architectures for these technologies are not exactly similar nor standardised yet. So this is where you need to ask yourself these questions, may equivalent OSS solutions exists or not.

                    Yann
  14. Not sure between version 5 and 6, but between 6 and 7 there were very few features. There were several known bugs with 7 and Borland refused to acknowledge them or fix them, instead making customers upgrade to get the fix. Now they have version 8 and I just read the "what's new" section and there wasn't much. That's my point, Borland forces users to buy a yearly maintenance package at $1,000/user by releasing new versions each year. If you buy JBuilder without the support then it'll be "outdated" in less than a year.

    Also JBuilder doesn't support JBoss! How could they not support JBoss?

    Don't get me started about JBuilder, I switched to Eclipse and have never been happier. AFAIK Borland still doesn't have the capability to modify code during debugging, something that's existed since Visual Cafe and Visual Age for Java 2.0.
  15. How does Borland 'force' you to upgrade? We still use version 4.0 at work and it does everything we need. Do you buy a new car every year because last years is 'outdated'? Also, from what I remember about Visual Cafe is that is would crash everytime you tried to debug more than three times in a row without restarting it. Visual Age had a great debugger but you were tied to IBM's JVM. How many other IDE's out there support JBoss out of the box?

    -Pete
  16. You're still using JBuilder 4? What do you use it for a text editor?
  17. What do you mean by that? You can code with version 4.0 the same as you can with 8.0 You don't get some of the nice new features but we can live with that. What is it about 4.0 that makes it only a 'text editor'?
  18. Its easy to say that JBuilder never introduces changes, if you don't know the product. The two points you say JBuilder lacks are resolved in JBuilder 8.

    * Integration with JBoss is provided by free in the companion tools (along with Oracle and Sybase integration). As JBuilder is an extensible framework (yes! JBuilder is as extensible as Eclipse is), you just put a JAR file in your CLASSPATH, and ... here you are! Integration with JBoss (or a full J2ME development environment!!). This is called OpenTools. I suggest you to look for additional componentes. You will be impressed! I use lot of free components downloadable from their community site.

    * 'Changing the code while debugging'. That's called 'Hot Swap' and is included in JBuilder 8 (Smart Swap in Borland's terminology). It's true that Visual Age 2.0 allowed you to do that (but only with IBM JVM), and the same with Visual Café (again, only with an specific JVM). In order to allow changes while debugging over any JVM, you need JDK 1.4.x. JBuilder is the *first* development tool that uses JDK 1.4.1, so is the first one that allows you to perform HotSwap in an standard way.

    What about the visual integration with Cactus or Struts? And the integration with WLS 7.1 *SP1*?
    Definitvely, there are lots of nice features in every version. I think Borland has to develop 3 releases per year, because the technology is changing, and everytime there are new tools thet the users want to be integrated in their development tool.

    I agree with you that there are lot of bugs that should be changed from prior versions, and they are keeped in JBuilder 8.

    But.... if you *know how to manage* that bugs... what you prefer, solve that bug, or have hundreds of nice features in your IDE? At the end, you can use Ant inside JBuilder to solve the poroblems you have. But I am happy with JBuilder because I have WebServices, Struts, Cactus, JUnit, Castor, MobileSet, tight integration with *every* version of *every* app server, .... more than a IDE! The only problem, I agree with you, are the bugs. Borland should resolve them quicker.

    Regards
  19. No company or internal systems group (at least if they are smart) is going to use OSS without looking at a cost/benefit analysis.

    Who cares if JBoss is free ? (I'm not saying anything negative about JBoss here, I like it a lot). Companies will still buy and use WebLogic or WebSphere .... or they may use JBoss .... it really depends on the situation.

    The cost of a J2EE server these days is nothing compared to the cost of overall development. And buying a licensed piece of software gives some people the piece of mind that they need.

    Weblogic and WebSphere will be around for a long time. Their use may be decreased once JBoss is certified by Sun. I would say that JBoss will be a real threat (i.e. taking away significant reveneus from the other two.) if it has a lot of the features in either of the other 2 app servers and provides eqaul support services.
  20. Here's a cost/benefit analysis[ Go to top ]

    Say you have a project that will generate an estimated revenue of $1,000,000. Development is estimated to cost $500,000. Deployment, $300,000. Software licenses (Oracle, Windows, Weblogic) = $250,000. The project never gets built because it would be a loss.

    What if you could turn that money loser into a $100,000 profit and employ a developer versed in Linux, PostgreSQL, and JBoss for $50,000. Would you consider doing the project for a 10% return on your money.?

    That's like pretending if you're building a house that it doesn't matter if you save a buck a board on lumber because you're paying laborers $8 an hour plus workers comp and social security, so the price of a board is negligible. That extra hour spent calling around to differnent lumber yards pays for itself on the first wall, on the first house. One subdivision later, it's the difference between being a millionaire real estate developer and an $8 an hour laborer for someone else.
  21. Here's a cost/benefit analysis - Good point[ Go to top ]

    Aaron - good point and analogy. I keep trying to preach this but no one listens. :(
  22. "n my opinion BEA put all its eggs in one basket and open source is poking a whole in the bottom."

    I don't agree. Even though BEA's gamut of products is not verticalised like Oracle's or IBM's, they are still ideally positioned with WebLogic and have already built a broader range of products that anticipates the next big IT waves: integration, BPM, portals, web services, TPM, which they will eventually integrate within WorkShop. A *lot* of third-party companies have built their commercial CRM, CMS, DMS and other acronymic products upon WebLogic. I really think BEA is here to stay. I would worry more about JBoss. The application servers are commoditising and the added value is quickly shifting to off-the-shelf appserv-based components. Unless many vendors base successful products upon the JBoss application server, it won't get out of the 5% niche (my own estimation) it is currently in. OSS is great but probably too scattered. In order to survive or expand, JBoss needs to be the platform for the arising needs I mentioned. I see a few commercial products have already ported their application to JBoss but it remains marginal. I do not see any snowball yet, which leads me to believe that indeed BEA looks fairly established. Actually, the biggest threat for BEA is companies like Oracle or IBM because they have good products along the full vertical chain from OS (IBM) to DB to applications. My gut feeling is that Oracle is the toughest competitor on the big accounts. Time will tell as always so we'll see.

    Borland is in a tougher area than BEA because:
    - Regardless of the quality of their J2EE application server, they stand far behind;
    - Regardless of the quality of Delphi, this language is far behind Java, C++ and VB;
    - Regardless of the quality of Interbase, Oracle and DB2 have taken a huge lead;
    - Together soft's products and their full integrated design-development-code generation-documentation life-cycle are somewhat contested and Rational has a clear competitive edge;
    - OptimizeIt is close to JProbe but the market is a bit of a niche.

    One of their best assets IMO is of course JBuilder but then again, developers do not necessarily like it and the competition is tough. Eclipse is a real OSS threat and IDEs are arguably not always needed.

    I see Borland as a great company with high-quality products but they did not get the first mover's advantage on many occasions and that's what keep them a bit overshadowed in many areas. Yet, I think quality often pays in the long term so I too believe they will still be there in a few years from now (under a different name perhaps...).

                    Yann
  23. <quote>Regardless of the quality of Delphi, this language is far behind Java, C++ and VB;</quote>

    Do you mean Delphi is far behind VB in market share ? I hope so because the quality of Delphi (Object Pascal) is hundreds of miles above VB.
  24. "Do you mean Delphi is far behind VB in market share ? I hope so because the quality of Delphi (Object Pascal) is hundreds of miles above VB."

    Yes, I was talking about market shares. I mean, of course i was! :)

                    Yann
  25. Hello,

    - Regardless of the quality of their J2EE application server, they stand far behind;

    Can you elaborate on that topic ?

    I was quite happy with that Server ...

    Regards.
  26. sheesh!!!

    What do the bloody fools know about Enterprise Software???

    The only direction I see BEA going is down. Granted that they have good products but I don't see them capturing any more market share than they already have. If they can't gain market share, where will they get additional revenue from?
  27. The Next Big Thing[ Go to top ]

    The only direction I see BEA going is down. Granted that they have good products but I don't see them capturing any more market share than they already have. If they can't gain market share, where will they get additional revenue from?
  28. The Next Big Thing[ Go to top ]

    Robert: "The only direction I see BEA going is down. Granted that they have good products but I don't see them capturing any more market share than they already have. If they can't gain market share, where will they get additional revenue from?"

    Since they have the largest [real] market share for J2EE, they really can't grow much (percentage wise). By new app server deployments, BEA is still probably over 50% of the market.

    So BEA will have to do what companies do when they exhaust the opportunities in the current market -- they have to innovate for the next one. Maybe they will drop out of the pole position, but they're making quite a few investments ("liquid data", their workshop tools initiative, etc.)

    Borland and IBM have also planned fairly well, although both were a bit late getting up to speed in the last round. Borland has made some pretty good investments of late (a nice side-effect of having cash), and IBM has been making the ante for the next generation of apps too.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  29. Based on what?[ Go to top ]

    "The only direction I see BEA going is down. Granted that they have good products but I don't see them capturing any more market share than they already have. If they can't gain market share, where will they get additional revenue from?"

    Question: are you stating that you don't growth for BEA based on any hard data or simply asserting your belief?

    If you have hard data, please share it with all of us.

    BTW in a growing market, BEA could continue to grow simply by maintaining marketshare.

    Regards, David
  30. Based on what?[ Go to top ]

    <David>
    Question: are you stating that you don't growth for BEA based on any hard data or simply asserting your belief?
    </David>

    This is all just personal opinion.

    <David>
    BTW in a growing market, BEA could continue to grow simply by maintaining marketshare.
    </David>

    What good is market share if you can't charge current prices for your products? Customers will move to the several cheaper and equally good products available. Especially now that a lot more people 'understand' J2EE, we might be able to be convince management that they are over paying for certain products.

    In a growing market scenario, you will have more competition which invariably translates to reduced pricing. So your assumption about BEA continuing to grow might not be true.
  31. Remember the Gorilla[ Go to top ]

    The argument put forth by people much smarter than me is that you don't have to lower your prices if competiors have lower price products WHEN YOU ARE IN A DOMINANT MARKET POSITION. Technology markets tend to converge on one product over time. Witness Oracle in the RDBMS market, Sun in workstations, Microsoft for the desktop OS. Buyers want to buy the winner, and will pay a premium for the perceived leading product.

    In any established market, growing or not, barriers to entry exist that make it unlikely an upstart will dislodge any of the market leaders. There is no way a startup can match the distribution channels of an existing large company. They can, however, change the rules of the game, but that is a different story.

    And before you jump on me about the market leader comment, see what Barron's has to say about IBM's market share claims: http://webreprints.djreprints.com/675490813257.html

    It seems that they tell the analyst community one story and the U.S. Government another. I'd tend to believe the U.S. Government figures personally.
  32. Revenue = # of products sold * price

    All they have to do is increase # of products sold
    and/or the price .... thus they increase revenues.
  33. <Raju Saripalli>
    Revenue = # of products sold * price

    All they have to do is increase # of products sold
    and/or the price .... thus they increase revenues.
    <Raju Saripalli>

    Doesn't at all make sense to me. How will they increase number of products sold? Increasing price will probably drive customers away to other vendors. I know of a company doing just this, dumping WebLogic for Pramati.
  34. BEA (and other companies) offer a wealth of features in their products. And they have differentiated products within the same space. Sure the app server market is flooded, but we are going to see BEA and IBM rule the roost with the additional features that they offer.

    A big strategy for them is to offer a further variety of products, either new products or well differentiated products that give these companies further revenue streamlines.

    My point was that market share alone is not the sole factor in determining the revenue increases for these companies.

    I suspect that over the next two years we will see market share in the "traditional" app-server space decrease for BEA and Weblogic. But they will make up for any revenue shortfalls in this area by offering various product configurations and additional product features/modules.