Sun evangelist yawns about new Windows server

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News: Sun evangelist yawns about new Windows server

  1. Sun evangelist yawns about new Windows server (73 messages)

    You probably know that Microsoft announced Windows Server 2003, and Visual Studio .NET the other day. The new features "barely drew a yawn" from Simon Phipps, chief technology evangelist at Sun Microsystems.

    This interview asks him:

    - How does Sun's approach to developers differ from that of Microsoft?
    - And just by offering more choices, you contend, you lower costs.
    - How far behind are they, do you think?
    - What about the server rollout?
    - So you don't look at the growth of Linux with dread.

    Read the interview

    Other Coverage:

    Microsofts Press Release

    What's New for Web Services Developers in Windows Server 2003 and Visual Studio .NET 2003

    News.com special coverage

    What have you thought about the new Microsoft release?

    Threaded Messages (73)

  2. The onslaught cometh ![ Go to top ]

    Windows 2003 runs on Superdome now !

    Oracle is toast !

    http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=noncluster

    So much for Unix Superiority.

    Chameleon
  3. Oracle is toast[ Go to top ]

    So what would happen if we changed the tpc benchmarks to inlcude
    installing new software while the test was running ;)
  4. You can take the argument that 'tpc bench marks mean nothing' from
    others. But look at oracle ads against IBM whole of last year,
    'Which is the fastest database on IBM's fastest computer'. They
    clearly posted TPC's results to show supremacy against DB2, now
    you have to accept the supremacy of sql 2000 also.

    Although oracle certainly has more features for scalability, manageability.
  5. Bravo[ Go to top ]

    Last phrase was very good, I think it need to be written on the wall:
    "I compliment them. They've done great work, doing what they think they need to do in Windows Server 2003. But unfortunately, they're very busily and very expertly solving the wrong problem." Sun in style :)
  6. Web services performance study

    http://www.elearning4gurus.com/only4gurus/techlib/miscellaneous/WebServicePerformance_04-03.pdf


    Chameleon
  7. That's great,[ Go to top ]

    provided you have a substantial investment in Intel hardware and MS software. What would you suggest for shops running someting like DB2 on a z-Series? It may be slower in some circumstances, but I'll take the portable option any day of the week.
  8. Not so quick[ Go to top ]

    Just checked TPC results.

    Right, SQL Server is 1,5x faster on 64xItanium2 1,5 GHz Superdome with 512GB RAM, than Oracle 9i on 32xPOWER4 1,3 GHz IBM eServer with 512 GB RAM.
    (links: http://www.tpc.org/results/individual_results/HP/hp_superdome_win64_030424_es.pdf and http://www.tpc.org/results/individual_results/IBM/IBMp690es_122602.pdf).

    But to say that Oracle is "toast" is too much. Twice as many processors SHOULD result in 1,5x speed increase for any software that dares to call itself "scalable".

    I think Oracle will be here to stay. :)
  9. Oracle here to stay?[ Go to top ]

    Piotr,

    Yes, but then you have to take into account the price/performance too. The IBM/Oracle solution is twice as expensive and this gap will probably widen as with time as the new Intel processors gain widespread use and falls in price.

    Then, very soon we will see a "Madison" Superdome - and then all the other sequels to Itanium..

    Regards,
    Rolf Tollerud
  10. There are not many Linux entries, but this one with Oracle:
    http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_result_detail.asp?id=102111202

    is priced $5.30/tpm.

    And one of comparable MS alternatives is:
    http://www.tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_result_detail.asp?id=102112002

    that is priced $5.32/tpm and have similar performance score.

    There are some Dells for >$5/tpm, but Dells are cheaper than HP and this makes that difference. The only comparable (in terms of performance) MS machine that is really p/p king is an Opteron, which was not scored with Linux.

    So from p/p point of view Linux/Oracle and Windows/SQL Server stay competitive...

    ... but: Oracle has much better record in many key fields, like security (remember SQL Slammer worm - and how many $$$ it costed some companies, eg. HP?), is portable (and not Pentium/Itanium only) which is the concern sometimes, and IBM server is declared to be available in May, contrasting to Superdome at the end of Oct.

    As for the Madison etc. - I believe that Opteron will really shake Intel, and after Dell destroys HP (which will happen sooner or later), Intel may find itself in hard position without stronger Itanium partner (Itanium2 is HP's design, and remember an Intel-designed Itanium1 crap?).
  11. "remember an Intel-designed Itanium1 crap"

    Yes, and Intel and Microsoft are so crap companies too!

    Joke aside; I cannot understand not being able to extrapolate a graph. For just some few years ago when MS only had the DOS operating system, Unix was already a fully finished OS.

    Now MS have just released Windows Server 2003. Linux is still more or less a copy of the same old Unix without any special innovations. What makes you think that all this should stop now?

    There was a time when Sun was very proud of their TCP benchmarks, in fact this page: http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/9703/sunflash.970305.1083.html
    is still available..

    So if you think that there is any other reason that Sun keeps away from the tests than that they are not competitive you need to be more cynical..

    Oracle may not be toast yet, but if there is one company that is toast then it is Sun!

    Regards,
    Rolf Tollerud
  12. http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/29/HNoraclepatch_1.html


    I thought only Microsoft programmers wrote security holes.

    Wow ! Even Unix has security holes.

    What a revelation.

    Chameleon
    Linux is only free if you do not value your time.
  13. That's not surprise. But have you heard of anything as spectacular as SQL Slammer? How do you count your TCO when you're buying DB server that has a documented history of bringing mlns of $dollars losses to at least several companies? Does the DB server license pricing matter at all?

    I know that performance-wise MS is doing pretty well, although not that well as presented by some "independent" benchmarks. The Wintel hardware was always cheap - because of production scale. Maybe even security will improve. Maybe MS will manage to destroy Sun and Oracle.

    But that's not the point. The point is that you cannot trust MS. 5 years ago, when you were Nintendo, or SAP, or Siebel you could target Windows as your main OS or cooperate with MS closely. Now you cannot, because MS competes with you. You never know when MS will start to compete with YOUR business. That's why major mobile phone companies does not want to go Windows way. That's why movie industry does not feel comfortable with MS service offering (with only one little restriction frightening them - all servers serving movies will belong to MS).

    So from the business decision makers long-term point of view, they cannot build up their whole enterprise on MS solutions only. Because MS has a long record of going into completely new markets and destroying them, using any means, even not perfectly legal (like hidden APIs etc.). Because MS has a long record of business partnerships like - cooperate with partner from new market, build up own position, and after that dominate and kill a partner. They are simply to aggressive.

    So be sure that Oracle DB, Java etc. will stay. Even when Sun or Oracle as companies are dead. MS is big and successful, but nobody always wins. And believe me, once there is free and end-user acceptable desktop OS and office suite, MS is dead. That's the only source of cash for them.

    And as for benchmarks - TPC is the benchmark being currently heavily targeted by MS. Other, more realistic benchmarks does not show so much performance leadership, look at: http://www.sap.com/benchmark/. You may see that in 2-tier SD test, 32xAlpha EV7 1.15 GHz running Oracle 9i and Tru64 Unix is 1.7x faster than 32xItanium2 1.0 GHz running Windows Datacenter 2003 Edition with 64-bit version of MS SQL Server 2000 EE. And performancewise, two CPUs are quite similar (at least in SPEC). So, this battle is not won yet.
  14. "the myth of script kiddies"[ Go to top ]

    Piotr,

    But have you heard of anything as spectacular as SQL Slammer?

    If the MS guys had as much time as the professional Unix guys to make virus and worms to discredit the competition with absolutely no regards for "third party", then the situation would be similar for the two sides.

    Have you looked at the source code for the "Red worm" for example? It is not the work of any “kiddy”.

    Nevertheless, it doesn’t matter because “all that do not kill you makes you stronger” (Nietze). Server 2003 is now a lot more secure than Linux for example..

    So it is a little fun really; imagine all the people that “let ambition destroy their useful work”.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  15. "the myth of script kiddies"[ Go to top ]

    Server 2003 is now a lot more secure than Linux for example..

    Don't make me laugh,
    Hum, hum how can you claim this so early ? Which Linux
    distribution are you talking about?
    To have a decent idea of the security of an OS you have to wait
    at least 6 months. I am pretty sure that Windows 2003 has security
    holes, and that .Net components will be vunerable to buffer overflows
    and IIS to DDOS, etc. The question is: in which proportion ?
  16. "the myth of script kiddies"[ Go to top ]

    Server 2003 is now a lot more secure than Linux for example..


    Right now Windows 2003 server is in public beta testing. It will be followed by service packs, bug fixes, security fixes and then lets talk about how secure windows is.
  17. "the myth of script kiddies"[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: "If the MS guys had as much time as the professional Unix guys to make virus and worms to discredit the competition ..."

    Nice touch. So the difference between Microsoft and other companies is that other companies spend all their time building virus and worm programs to make Microsoft look bad? You are delusional!

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  18. "the myth of script kiddies"[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    It's all a big conspiracy. All those *NIX companies are dastardly trying to defeat windows through virus writing!

    You should start writing for Floodlight.org (http://www.floodlight.org/).


    Jason McKerr
    Northwest Alliance for Computational Science and Engineering
  19. "the myth of script kiddies"[ Go to top ]

    Jason,

    It is a free country!
    Nothing stops you from being as hypocritical you want…

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  20. I think it's safe to say that neither side is going anywhere anytime soon. Linux will continue to make inroads into the enterprise, at the expense of both Windows and Unix. Java will continue to be a major player, and Microsoft will be around for the long haul too. Their market share is likely to decline some as Linux and other open source projects mature, such as OpenOffice/StarOffice, but Microsoft is not likely to go away just because they have security holes. If that were the case, wouldn't they be gone by now? And as has been correctly pointed out, *nix has its share of holes too. I'm not naive to suggest that we all can just get along, but maybe we could at least agree to disagree. Just like religion and politics, there really is no one 'right' viewpoint, but rather personal preferences and different ways of looking at things. In the end, the best solution/software is the one that solves the problem most efficiently, whether it be Microsoft or otherwise.
  21. "the myth of script kiddies"[ Go to top ]

    If the MS guys had as much time as the professional Unix guys to make virus >and worms to discredit the competition with absolutely no regards for "third >party", then the situation would be similar for the two sides.



    The reason we have time is because we don't have to waste time sorting out Windows Downtime, Lets also not forget that the MS Guys do a lot to discredit the competition as well,

     
    > Nevertheless, it doesn’t matter because “all that do not kill you makes you >stronger” (Nietze). Server 2003 is now a lot more secure than Linux for >example..
    >

    There is common saying: `The better Windows gets the more it looks like Unix`, the only real difference in Windows 2003 security is that its locked down by default, which Is something Unix/Linux has always been. It also suprises me that Windows (NT) has over a decade of development, Linux has only really had enterprise development in the last 5 or six years, meaning that whatever advantage windows has right now will be extremely short lived.
  22. survival of the fittest[ Go to top ]

    a) The development of Windows Server System is progressing in a fast pace. The Linux System as I understand it only recently reached the same functionality as some of the lower lever commercial Unixes (i e Caldera etc), in other words - crawling at snail pace.

    b) Windows Server 2003 has the advantage of being attacked somewhat 100+ times more than Linux, therefore it is bound to be stronger.

    c) The übersmart staff at MS is more competent!

    Sorry to be so blunt!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  23. survival of the fittest[ Go to top ]

    Mr. Tollerud, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

    "c) The übersmart staff at MS is more competent!"
  24. to be boring is the only sin[ Go to top ]

    "I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul"

    Well, I give you seven points, for being funny!
  25. c) The übersmart staff at MS is more competent!

    People who:
    - use 2(two) symbols to mark end of line; (they did it to make text printable directly on some printers(!))
    - use backslash as patch separator;
    - could not imagine that computer will need more than 640 kilobytes of memory;
    - build filesystem around hardware disks(!);
    - keep insane environment variables 'inheritance';
    - even in year 2003 cannot make filesystem working properly;

    Just canNOT create anything robust and reliable.Period.
  26. "<Matthew Cox>Mr. Tollerud, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard</Matthew Cox>"

    "<Konstantin Ignatyev>Just canNOT create anything robust and reliable.Period </Konstantin Ignatyev>"

    <Ian P. McCullough>
    I did it... it rocked...
    I was an MS Intern several years ago. (And was a MacPhile and OSS proponent the whole time.) It was probably the single best work experience I've ever had. And that's even after I mention that my boss and I clashed at every turn and I ultimately got a "no hire" recommendation, pretty much blacklisting me from ever working there again. You can hate the way they do business, or their FUD marketing or whatever you want, but at the end of the day, working there is like being an endowed researcher at the coolest, most well-funded university on earth, where they only let in the uber-smart. It was easily the highest concentration of smart people I've ever had the pleasure of being around. If someone had handed me a crystal ball and told me the shit the economy was about to become I would have kissed some serious ass and made sure I got an offer there.</Ian P. McCullough>

    "Morover, In Pricewaterhouse Coopers survey, published today (2003-01-20), based on 1000 CEO's opinions in 20 countries, Bill Gates is ranked first as an company leader - and Microsoft as the most repected company (together with General Electric). This is in addtion to a former survey, which showed Microsoft as "Most Desired IT Employer of 2002".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  27. Rolf,

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's pretty well known in Seattle that "you go to Microsoft when you lose your fun job elsewhere." I used to live right next to Microsoft main campus in Redmond on 156th, and most of my friends worked there, and it wasn't their first (or second ...) choice. It's like any bloated company: big, political, inefficient, and generally boring. You're probably right that it is better than some other bloated companies, but in the scheme of things, that's not saying too much. Most of the talent that they manage to pick up by buying other companies (or hiring them when they get laid off from startups that go bust) leaves Microsoft within a short period of time to do something that is challenging and interesting. It's even worse there now that the stock options are basically worthless -- 10 years ago a bright engineer could be "almost guaranteed" to become a millionaire if they stuck around.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  28. even funnier..[ Go to top ]

    Ok, I see that I have to give you seven points too - no I give you eight points!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  29. even funnier..[ Go to top ]

    Ralf: "Ok, I see that I have to give you seven points too - no I give you eight points!"

    Your ability to deny reality is second only to your desire to create it: Hi, this site is all about Microsoft employees, REAL MICROSOFT EMPLOYEES. This site is awesome. My name is Rolf and I can't stop thinking about Microsoft employees. These guys are cool; and by cool, I mean totally perfect.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  30. Cameron,

    It is generally known that MS for 15 years has had a different hiring philosophy than other companies, putting much more emphasis on raw intelligence than any other factor. Rather smart IMO.

    Companies as people have distinct personality that you feel as soon you are through the door. With MS, you immediately notice “the highest concentration of smart people I've ever had the pleasure..” in big contrast to Sun for example – the sorriest lot I ever encountered – speaking of personal experience.

    I see that you have not given up the Ninja thing – so I have to find a literary figure that fit your personality. “Don Quixote De La Mancha”, by Cervantes, come to mind (your valiant fight against the evil MS). I know you do not have much time to read, but try this time – reading something other the “shop” will good for you - I promise! You will find the book in the place called “library”.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  31. Rolf: "It is generally known that MS for 15 years has had a different hiring philosophy than other companies, putting much more emphasis on raw intelligence than any other factor. Rather smart IMO."

    When you say, "It is generally known", I assume you mean "I have heard ..." or "I wish to believe."

    It is true that Microsoft works hard to recruit a number of graduates from top schools such as MIT. However, they are up against companies that pay better for more exciting jobs and often have better incentive packages. That "cream of the crop" is very hard to recruit, especially for a boring bloated corporation. Considering cost, even 10 years ago hiring a good graduating engineer from MIT cost over US$100K/year. By the end of the '90s, there were more companies at the MIT job fair here in Cambridge than there were graduating students in the class. Most of the graduating seniors were going to startups, or founding their own.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  32. "That "cream of the crop" is very hard to recruit"

    Are you joking? MS have a pick of severals hundreds for every job or intern-ship. "Most Desired IT Employer" Remember?

    Just a few citations, (I could give you hundreds more)

    "Corporate culture is great. Everyone is supportive about things like personal time, social lives, time off, etc. Morale is really high at Microsoft. Through the roof. The company just treats you right in many different ways."

    "Being a Microsoft intern was the first time I had a consistent, fulfilling social life too. Pretty much every weekend was a party and having fun around Seattle. They are amoung the most family friendly companies in the country."

    "It's not that they pay their interns but that they pay them really well, and give them many financial bennies on top of it. I had a free, after reimbursement, rental call every month I was there. They place you in really nice housing with other interns, and while you all end up splitting the actuall rent ( $500/mo for just me to share a two bedroom with private baths ) MS tosses in so much more. The apartments are furnished down to wine glasses, cable tv, and a maid every two weeks."

    But keep up your good work, it is entertaining, if nothing else..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  33. Wow, wow, wow... so... those security holes, programming ERRORS, horrible application BUGS (IE for instance) are created by the smartest people on the planet?? Wow.. not even god can save us now...

    My Dear Trolf Trollerud:
    Believe me. I've been a Microsoft consultant myself (working for MS Consulting). If you like to earn money by doing quick and dirty jobs... OK!! go for it. But I dont like it and won't like it so I quit.

    So.. Do you work for MS?? If so, congratulations! Otherwise and following your train of thought, You ARE not smart enough. :-)

    Peace!
  34. Gee, I just did a patent search for Microsoft vs IBM. In the last ten years Microsoft has had 2000 patents issues, IBM did 3288 last year alone. In the last ten year IBM has had over 22000 patents issued. Even Sun has had more patents issued to it than Microsoft. So I guess Microsoft has &#8220;the highest concentration of UNPRODUCTIVE smart people you have had the pleasure to meet." Maybe they should put more of an emphasis on creative minds vs "raw intelligence". Microsoft is a marketing company that produces software.

    -Pete
  35. Pete,

    There is a Sun led "craze" against MS throughout the world. Whenever you are at CNet, Anchordesk or any public forum whatsoever you will find a 90-95% massive negative opinion against Microsoft, with undisciplined and intolerant speech - encouraging hyperbole, paranoia and hatred.

    Now - for an intellectual person, it is not difficult to draw the conclusion that in this "craze", as in any other "craze" - the first to disappear is the truth.

    The situation is not dissimilar to the situation of United States itself, US also have to stand a lot of unfair accusations and idiotic claims around the globe, for the same reason as with Microsoft, ENVY. The entity that has the most power and resources has to stand the most envy..It is the way of the world.

    So, instead of being part of a "lynch mob", use your brain.

    Back in the time with Mac and Win 3.1, the Mac would crash ever one or two hours (cooperative multitasking anyone?). However, you could read anywhere how bad an unstable Win 3.1 was, but you would never hear a peep from the Apple camp.

    People used to complain about how buggy IE was, but when finally Netscape's code was released, it was so crappy that Mozilla had to discard all of it.

    So my advice to you is to keep a cool head, and not allow to be drawn into any craze, remember that the public opinion is almost always wrong, that is is probably better to throw a couple of dice than to find out the truth from "public opinion". Instead, try to be an intellectual person, think for yourself.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  36. TRolf:
    If you visit any VB forum, you will find that if you just mention Java (or even C++ or C#) you are automatically targeted as "moron","troll","geek without any real life experience", etc.

    So, what you say applies to you as well. I'd like to see you contributing ideas, sharing real life experiences,etc etc, instead of just reading your usual load of pointless postings.

    BTW, you haven't answered: Do you work for MS?
  37. "If you visit any VB forum, you will find that if you just mention Java (or even C++ or C#) you are automatically targeted as "moron""

    I am sorry to have to say that you are wrong; if you visit a MS forum, you will find that they are only talking "shop" - technical matters.

    Microsoft (and United States) is constantly bashed in all newsgroups and media in the world. (and please do not embarrass yourself by finding some single examples of “Java bashing” – it proves nothing)

    Please remember that you are talking to an intellectual person, even if you do not regard yourself as one..
  38. Rolf>>
    I am sorry to have to say that you are wrong; if you visit a MS forum, you will find that they are only talking "shop" - technical matters.
    <
    This type of discussion is maybe nonexistent in the MS forums because there is no platform like this to have the discussion (and I do not mean name calling or targetting someone as a moron).

    I do not think that the absense of opinionated discussion is good at all - there is something very wrong about that. I am not saying that MS developers are not capable of that, but that there is no Java community-like feeling about it. And I bet that is exactly why you are posting here as well. Where else can you express your opinions like here and get responses that stimulate discussion? All the responses are maybe not well balanced but you can't say that the controversial notes of yours sometimes would deserve anything better.

    I welcome you to comment in the way you do, even if it is very controversial, but at the end it can bring out points that were not out in the open before. We will set you free in time from our Microsoft chackles, Rolf :)

  39. We will set you free in time from our Microsoft chackles, Rolf :)
    <
    That is your chackles of course :) Excuse my typo.
  40. Well, maybe the day you throw away the idea of replacing Codd's Relation Database with some homegrown persistent mechanism and "query language" and stop talking like "Organize inter-service transfers according to use cases from known domain objects into a coarse-grained Composite" and give priority to "practical intelligence" over "well-meaning theorists" - in other words, stop playing and start to behave like professionals..

    Then, maybe..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  41. If "practical intelligence" is the mother of all of those horrible programming errors... I rather be a lawyer than a software developer!!!
  42. "Please remember that you are talking to an intellectual person, even if you do not regard yourself as one.. "
    Nice style, using an *argumentum ad-hominem* when you run out of valid answers... maybe a psichologist has the answer for your behaviour, Hummm... which is not tipical of an *intelectuall person* .

    Do you want me to post links to any of the VB forums I have talked about?
  43. Rolf, I'm sorry to say that Microsoft isn't a country.
  44. Please answer the question[ Go to top ]

    BTW, you haven't answered: Do you work for MS?


    Rolf,
    I don't think you have ever answered this question even though it has been asked many times. Do you work for Microsoft?
  45. am I working for Microsoft?[ Go to top ]

    John,

    Of course not. Probably not smart enough!

    But I take it as a compliment that you think I do!
    Thank you..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  46. bad propaganda[ Go to top ]

    Hey rolf, stick to the issues. Don't get politics in this site mixing Microsoft and the US government.

    As for your third-party testimonies of Microsoft's working environment for interns, I am sorry but they have really no value. Why don't you speak after you've personally had a 10-year career at microsoft? It's like judging a country from the airport where you stopped for a couple of hours between flights. You see local gadgets and newspaper, people speak the local language and use the local money. That's it.

    I have also head that MSFT is packed with Ph.D's even if I would say that their real smart people are not the computer scientist or programmes, are their managers and salespeople.

    They sell the whole package years before its ready, and they market new technologies and start to do real work only once they sold it. That is very smart. To need tons of smart slaves to be able to quickly put substance behind their marketing. Once the first very bad release goes out (hey it's already paid for!) they need smart slaves again to be able to make a bad bad product become an ok product through hacks and patches, without letting computer scientist rething the whole thing and do it right.

    Is this way wrong? No, it pays. It pays them well.

    And by the way, the smart people that have real fun with computers are game programmers. If they ever did a pool on most desired company for computer scientists (never heard of a degree on IT) it has to be any game producing company.

    P.S. I applaud Apple for finally understanding that backward compatibility should not go on for ever. After a few years, there should be so many changes and improvements to be done to any software that the only way to do backward compatibility is emulation.

    P.P.S I just think of the huge positive effects of splitting MSFT to separate Windows and Office development. Big time competition on the most important and lucrative software sector.
    The Dot Com era would not have ended after 3 years.

    P.P.P.S. Does anyone think that microsoft will survive the founder's death as HP and IBM have?
  47. paranoia self destroy ya[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: There is a Sun led "craze" against MS throughout the world.

    Aren't you the guy who was calling Rickard paranoid?

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  48. Huh?[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,
      What the heck does your reply have to do with my post on Patents? BTW if public opinion is almost always wrong weren't you the one who said that "according to opinion" Bill Gates was one of the most admired guys in business and Microsoft was one of the best places to work?

    -Pete

    PS With that big of a brain trust why can't Microsoft produce more Patents?
  49. Pete,

    1) Software patents are "convoluted nonsense".

    2) 1000 CEO's opinions in 20 countries are NOT the same as "public Opinion".

    Have a good day
    Rolf Tollerud
  50. I think that IBM and Sun have more patents because they develop a lot of hardware for their systems. Remember that IBM is the biggest "computer" company, that includes chips, storage, software, etc etc. Sun develops their risc chips, etc.

    These kind of hardware advances will require lots of patents.
  51. Wide usage and usefulness of paper plates do not make them better plates than fine art ceramic plates (Antique Chinese plate of Kang Xi period http://pages.tias.com/3700/PictPage/1352026.html for instance or even modern stuff http://www.italian-gallery.com/ ).

    I would even say that people, who make paper tableware, are not idiots, but....
  52. Most desired - that just means most of the standard curve distribution. Most of the standard curve distribution will be (by definition) average. So, your second argument is a very good counterargument.

    Also, I doubt that people who came up with gems like collections in VB6 (and earlier) can be called ubersmart. Uberclueless maybe.
    V.
  53. survival of the fittest[ Go to top ]

    a) The development of Windows Server System is progressing in a fast pace.


    ...and that is one of the problems. Businesses need RELIABILITY not new features. Fast development is to support MS marketing smoke and mirrors, not to enhance product reliability.

    Windows may be a good desktop environment and MS do a lot of goods things regarding ease of use but when it comes to reliability they constantly fail. One of the major reasons for this is that they never seperated the desktop and server products. There's too much unneccessary nonsense on Windows servers.

    The problem's not with MS per ser but with their one size fits all mentality.
  54. survival of the fittest[ Go to top ]

    True, but Windows continues to improve in reliability too. If they can keep it up, it will be "server worthy" within a few years. And I'll be the first to pat 'em on the back for it too.

    In the meantime, it's still a good desktop OS, and I'm quite happy with it there.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  55. survival of the fittest[ Go to top ]

    "The Windows Server 2003 has already surpassed Linux in security and reliability"

    But if Linux keep up, they will reach "the level that was already reached for 20-30 years ago" within a few years. And I'll be the first to pat 'em on the back that!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  56. But if Linux keep up, they will reach "the level that was already reached for 20-30 years ago" within a few years. And I'll be the first to pat 'em on the back that!


    Was this phrase meant to be nonsense on purpose?
  57. Oracle here to stay?[ Go to top ]

    Then, very soon we will see a "Madison" Superdome - and then all the other sequels to Itanium..

    Itanium is not doing very well. It is a completely different beast than commodity 2-CPU rack-mounted (or blade) "Intel servers" that we all know and love. It is currently much more expensive and slower than similar kit from IBM, Sun, etc. ... and slower and more expensive than "Intel servers" too. I don't want it to be more expensive and slower -- it would be great if (when?) it could (will?) be faster and cheaper, but right now it is not a volume product (I think the "dead" HP PA RISC still sells more units) and it is not very optimized for anything besides SSL encrypt/decrypt, which is a severe waste of expensive high-end "enterprise" CPU cycles.

    Right now, the best perf/$ is still Intel (2-CPU 32-bit Pentium) or the other Intel (AMD). It's going to be a long time (if ever) before Itanium becomes competitive in the same way.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Easily share live data across a cluster!
  58. Strange benchmark[ Go to top ]

    Take a look at:
    http://www.only4gurus.com/v2/shownews.asp?id=49

    An excerpt from the text there:

    "Doculabs conducted testing at a lab facility made available by Microsoft, with server, data storage, and network equipment donated by Hewlett Packard for use in the tests. For the duration of the testing, Doculabs had full control of this lab facility and certifies all results as valid and fair to all tested products."

    The same story as with the famous TSS benchmark?
    How is it possible that "pure JavaBean" solution was almost the same fast as EJB, when many other sources tell that "servlet-only" solutions are 2x faster? (like Rice University study shows).

    Being honest - I do not like entity EJBs at all, but J2EE is much more than EJB.
  59. Is TPC-C still relevant?[ Go to top ]

    As much as we all like to use the TPC-C results (as well as those from other organizations) to rally around our respective flags and tout the superiority of our chosen platforms, there is a disturbing trend at work here that I'd like to point out.

    From the TPC website, of the 112 results returned by clicking on the "All Results" link, only 30 represent a database other than some version of SQL Server. Of these, 20 were Oracle configurations, 5 were Sybase, 3 were SymfoWARE, and only 2 were DB2.

    Now, before anybody starts to think I'm about to shout "conspiracy", let me make my point. The TPC benchmarks are all optional. In the past, the "king of the hill" game seemed to be enough to ensure participation from all major vendors, to the degree that capacity planners and system architects could browse published results to review proposed configurations and glean performance best practices. Now, though, there is a dearth of information about the latest systems from two of the major Unix vendors out there: IBM and Sun.

    True, IBM has published 11 benchmark results on AIX over the past two years, but only two of them have targeted DB2 as the database. Sun has published only 5 results since Y2K, with all but one of those on that perennial market leader SymfoWARE (Fujitsu)--oh, and not a single result has been published on the StarFire/UltraSPARC III platform.

    Granted, Unix vendors may be staying away simply because they know they can't compete (or because, to compete, they may push price/performance metrics into the realm of silliness). Even if that's the case, though, we're still the poorer for it because we have no objective (or, at least, semi-objective) benchmark to compare the major players. And nobody's required to explain why they stay away ...

    Put another way, JBoss has no published SPEC jAppServer results. What conclusions can we draw from that? Absolutely none.

    Just food for thought.
  60. - becuase they would be at the bottom.
  61. You miss my point. Not once did I claim that another platform was superior to Microsoft. According to the available results, there is no evidence to make such a claim, since Microsoft has a significant lead in the performance metric with an impressive price/performance metric to boot.

    I was actually lamenting the fact that the TPC and SPEC organizations, for all their good intentions, are really not providing the service I'm looking for as a consumer of enterprise technology wares. Their opt-in model no longer appears to attract a major portion of the enterprise market, and David Horowitz (Fight Back) or Consumer Reports have yet to assemble their crack team of performance engineers to fill the gap.

    Objective comparison is difficult without adequate comparative data, and, as fun as it may be to lobby for our personal favorites in public forums ;), it still leaves us no closer to our business objective: to select and implement the best technology available.
  62. best technology[ Go to top ]

    duh - best technology is always Sun & Oracle.

    Why question it ?
  63. the usual squirming excuses[ Go to top ]

    "I was actually lamenting the fact that ..are really not providing the service I'm looking for as a consumer of enterprise technology wares"

    On the contrary, they are providing the service as always. You just have to put down the players that will not participate (Sun) for results at the bottom.

    It is so incredible naive to think that when you have good result you gloat (http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/9703/sunflash.970305.1083.html), when you have rotten result you withdraw from competition and try to discredit the test.

    Not to speak of when you construct a test which your mayor competitors are not allowed to do (SPEC jAppServer). LOL.

    "it still leaves us no closer to our business objective: to select and implement the best technology available"

    Nice try.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  64. TP Benchmarks[ Go to top ]

    Anybody with half a brain realizes that most benchmark studies are purely marketing crap.

     I remeber one infamous test between RDBMS wher one had spectatular results.

      if it haden't been for an enginerr with some scruples spilling the beans
      on certain Undocumented features being turned on.

       These features disabled all transaction logging and locking no wonder it was so much faster than the competition.
  65. Price War ??[ Go to top ]

    I am just curious to know whether, are there anyone who decide their H/W-Software based on these TPC benchmarks?
    Either Microsoft leads or Oracle leads the benchmark it doesn't make much of a difference. Probably if i start a new startup then i might look at all these benchmarks and make my decision. But in the long run i would say it is just the Total Cost of Ownership matters ...
  66. After putting our J2EE app in Redhat Linux and Bea Weblogic 7.2 our downtime
    due to windoze memeory leak and security hole and patches has dissappeared.

    If M$ was smart they would just concentrate just on M$Office and windoze 98 where they make money. In case of windoze and .not M$ is running a loosing battle against Java and Linux. If you dont see the writing on the wall ..well you are blind. Openoffice will also kill MSOffice like Mozilla has killed IE the security hole mamanger.

    Sony, Nokia, IBM, BEA , Oracle and opensource is working on Java and Linux. Incase of .Not and windoze will just Billy goats and paid trolls.


    If I were doing .Not and windoze I wouldstart looking for the unemployment ageny soon.

    .Not and windoze will always have holes .
  67. innocent expectations..[ Go to top ]

    If I were doing .Not and windoze I wouldstart looking for the unemployment ageny soon

    You mean, according to the job search statistic?

    LOL.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud (hi hi)
  68. IRAQI info minister[ Go to top ]

    Rolf you remind me of IRAQI Info minister.

    Windoze and IE never had any holes and IE is part of windoze it cannot
    seperated.

    LOL !!
  69. Self Defense Mechanism[ Go to top ]

    This is the first stage of rationalization -
    called

    DENIAL.

    You refuse to hear anything that is
    contrary to your deeply ingrained belief
    taught by the $un temple & religion.

    Wake up and smell the coffee.

    Chameleon

    Linux is free only if you do not value your time.
  70. Self Defense Mechanism[ Go to top ]

    This is the first stage of rationalization -

    > called
    >
    > DENIAL.
    >
    > You refuse to hear anything that is
    > contrary to your deeply ingrained belief
    > taught by the $un temple & religion.
    >
    > Wake up and smell the coffee.
    >
    > Chameleon
    >
    > Linux is free only if you do not value your time.


    I value my time, Windows just doesn't seem to leave me with any...
  71. Self Defense Mechanism[ Go to top ]

    This is the first stage of rationalization -

    > called
    >
    > DENIAL.
    >

    You only need to read some threads here and you find that there are people who can't see anything wrong with Windows. It's made by Microsoft so nothing can be wrong. Microsoft seems to be like a pop idol for people who had none when they were in their teens and now they discovered their unlived past.

    The only problem with that is that not long ago MS used to make crappy windowing environments that you could not even call an operating system. Count your fingers and you know what I mean. The innovation that went into fixing that was tremendous.

    Then some people say that there is no innovation in Unix and it has not changed in such a long time. Well, maybe it did not have to change, or could it be that you don't see all the pretty eye candy that people call advancement and innovation. The eye candy sold you right from the beginning, right?

    > Linux is free only if you do not value your time.

    You only wish you had Linux after having to deal with a bunch of (consolidated) Windows 2000 servers that can't seem to stay stable any amount of time. If you are the person on call over the weekend, I promise that you will be working. You would expect your database server staying up a few days, right? So I need an expert to fix it? Had you put that time to learn Linux, you could have been home for corn flakes.

    Sure Windows looks and feels easy, but there is nothing easy about it when you have a problem. Lots of eye candy and integrated this and integrated that, fused into a big tarball that you can't seem to untangle (Mr. Gates says so). So, this is the server that you are running then, a big tarball of complexity fused into one big problem. Microsoft builds things easy and simple, it is superior. Damn teenagers.

    I am joking, right?
  72. <simon phipps>
    There is Unix on x86 now, and there is both Linux and Solaris x86, and both are gaining rapidly in popularity because of the way they open up choice and reduce costs
    </simon phipps>
    Solaris gaining popularity -what a joke

    <simon phipps>
    You'll hear Microsoft talking a lot about choice, but their choices are all choices that only allow you to run on Windows, only allow you to run on x86, and only allow you to use their products. So it's kind of [like saying], 'You can go anywhere you want within this cell, Mr. Prisoner.'
    </simon phipps>
    What about sun choice. Just USE JAVA for everything. Each has their own business interest. SUN wants Java and Microsoft wants windows to become Ubiquitous. So Mr. Phipps your statement
    'You can go anywhere you want within this cell, Mr. Prisoner.' applys to you too.
  73. Liar !! Give MSFT some credit for Ms Office. Its thru criticism of oursleves we will learn .. not critisizing others allllll the time ... And SUNS guys have started claiming LINUX as something they gave the industry.
      Till last year SUN was never into supporting LINUX so much, they see its competition to themself. But now they use linux so much everywhere that as if they invented it and its their tool against MSFT.
       This guy sucks !!!!
  74. Windows 2003 is never stable[ Go to top ]

    simply look at the following html-code and user your IE

    <html>
      <form>
        <input type crash />
      </form
    </html>

    and there is a big crash :-)