Discussions

News: Sun to post a big loss

  1. Sun to post a big loss (41 messages)

    News.com reports that Sun will post a big loss and added in a statement, that the loss "reflects a particularly difficult quarter for the company due in part to intense market and competitive dynamics. This could be good for BEA's J:ROCKIT VM and IBM's Jikes (and their J2EE servers)."

    Sun fell 10% in after hours trading on the news.

    Sun said it would take the $1.05 billion charge in the fourth quarter of fiscal 2003 to write down the value of tax credits carried on its balance sheet, because of its slower return to profitability. The high-tech recession has been harder on Sun than on rivals, who have undercut Sun with cheaper computers that use industry-standard components.

    "they are becoming essentially less and less relevant," said Bracelin of Pacific Crest"

    Read Sun to Post Deeper First Quarter Loss

    Read Sun warns of hefty loss

    SUNW finance page

    Threaded Messages (41)

  2. Sun to post a big loss[ Go to top ]

    This could be good for BEA's J:ROCKIT VM and IBM's Jikes (and their J2EE servers)."


    That's quite possibly the stupidest statement I've ever read on TSS. "Sun's stock is down - maybe we should use jikes to compile our code instead of javac?"

    It's good news for MSFT, not random java tools.
  3. Cash Reserve = $5B - $1B = $4B?[ Go to top ]

    Scott,

    How of much of the 5 billion have you got left ?

    Chameleon
  4. Cash Reserve = $5B - $1B = $4B?[ Go to top ]

    I dont think you should confuse a posted loss with cashflow, the things are two quite different things.
    Without knowing any specifics, its not completely unlikely that Sun actually has a positive cashflow (more money coming in than going out of their bank accounts), but has posted a loss because of large write-offs on past bad investments ("Goodwill" write-offs on bad dotcom-era investments anyone?).

    In short: its not unusual at all that companies post big losses but actually have positive cashflow, and the other way around..
  5. Cash Reserve = $5B - $1B = $4B?[ Go to top ]

    This is why I am staying with the gorilla in redmond who has 50 billion dollars in cash reserve. C#/.Net all they way.
  6. Sun to post a big loss[ Go to top ]

    Sun is going to hell... burn baby, your times are gone. It's soo good to see history in the making :-)
  7. Jackass...*[ Go to top ]

    ...
  8. Sun to post a big loss[ Go to top ]

    This is sad news. It is time Sun got rewarded for their mindshare. Do you really think that Java would be where it is if any other big company was in charge of Java?

    And no, I am not related to Sun in any way other than as an end-user.
  9. Sun to post a big loss[ Go to top ]

    It is sad.

    But... Sun has embarsed us in the past, with EJB, jBoss, Portlet, JCP...
    Ex:
    http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1303341,00.asp

    Or more:
    http://messages.yahoo.com/?action=q&board=SUNW

    I think this is good for Java, becuase now healthy/strong vendors can carry it, and Java Community is very strong (just Sun stops making noises. OK, so they have some cash left to burn, but no value to offer).
  10. Well done Gerald![ Go to top ]

    Its fantastic to see the results of Gerald's activism. See, One Man _can_ make a difference!
  11. Its fantastic to see the results of Gerald's activism.

    > See, One Man _can_ make a difference!

      Well, dare I say that Sun's fall into irrelevance has more to do with Linux and Sun's "leadership" that tries to turn Sun into Micro$un instead of opening up and joining the Free World.

      Before the Sun circus outdoes SCO help secure the future of Java as an open royality-free standard and join the Free Java Now Campaign today. More info @ http://viva.sourceforge.net/action.html

      Viva The Java Republic!
  12. Well done Gerald![ Go to top ]

    Gavin: Its fantastic to see the results of Gerald's activism. See, One Man _can_ make a difference!

    ROFL! Too funny!

    It's amazing how the same group comes out every time to stick the boot into poor Sun. Poor Sun, poor poor Sun, with $5 billion. If they drop another 50%, they'll be ripe for a leveraged buy-out.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  13. Sun IS SETTING , NOT JAVA[ Go to top ]

    sun really needs serious thinking - its just too many people in that company - they should trim it a bit to the best of the best
  14. Sun IS SETTING , NOT JAVA[ Go to top ]

    I like cheese.
  15. Sun IS SETTING , NOT JAVA[ Go to top ]

    sure u do
  16. Sun IS SETTING[ Go to top ]

    It will be said to see sun going down if this continues as the signs are not looking +ve.
    But I remember Scott said in recent interview that they are writing off some investments so i'm not surprised if they are making loss in this quarter.
    Anyway, with such s avisonary compnay like SUN, where 3 of the four co fonders have left and only Scott is remaining there, I dint know how much guts he has got to turn around SUN. Aslo Jonathan Schwartz recent attack on open source was another ssgnal whats happening to their think tank.
    But from a JAVA and J2EE community perspective its said that only company which will benefit with demise of SUN is Microsoft (Big way) and IBM (who knows if IBM will buy SUN).

    So, we can only hope things will turn around and some common sense will prevail at SUN's think tank.
  17. Well done Gerald![ Go to top ]

    Gavin: Its fantastic to see the results of Gerald's activism. See, One Man _can_ make a difference!

    >
    > ROFL! Too funny!
    >
    > It's amazing how the same group comes out every time to stick the boot into poor Sun. Poor Sun, poor poor Sun, with $5 billion. If they drop another 50%, they'll be ripe for a leveraged buy-out.
    >
    > Peace,
    >
    > Cameron Purdy
    > Tangosol, Inc.
    > Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    Maybe, and let me tell you why I don't like SUN. For one, this company is larger and more talked about than it should be. I don't know what people were thinking in 98, but now SUN has nothing to offer to the world (except Java) and it exists only because of it's cache in the bank. This alone makes them dinosaurs and I don't like to see them living when they should be dead, because that's where they're going, there's no turning back for SUN.
    Another thing, I'm younger. I've never took it for granted that you have to learn for days before editing a text or installing your own operating system. Whenever I encounter a SUN server is the same story : outperformed by the developer P4 boxes around it (if it's less than a 4 way UltraSparc III), expensive as hell, nobody can use it except for the Solaris admin, and that guy is usually an irritating character that confuses the learning of the scribbles of bash with amassing IQ points and has a bad habit of calling me and other users 'lusers'. Not than I would want in any way to have an account on that server, but for some reason the company thinks that we should use that tractor of a server.
    In short, SUN has no place in my conscience, all I can think of when I see a SUN server environment is archaic, granddaddy, over the hill.
    And wow, all the analysts and all the benchmarks in the world agree with me. Hey, my distorted view of the world is actually true !

    And wake up, the open source community is not going to keep java alive. The open source community can't do that. When the hell din the open source community produce anything near the quality of the commercial counterparts? Apache is only thing I can think of. Linux is heavily sponsored by IBM and copy/pasted from SCO's code it seems. The open source community will provide us with ants and xdoclets and stuff like this. This is the league it's playing in.
  18. Well done Gerald![ Go to top ]

    Gavin: Its fantastic to see the results of Gerald's activism. See, One Man _can_ make a difference!

    > >
    > > ROFL! Too funny!
    > >
    > > It's amazing how the same group comes out every time to stick the boot into poor Sun. Poor Sun, poor poor Sun, with $5 billion. If they drop another 50%, they'll be ripe for a leveraged buy-out.
    > >
    > > Peace,
    > >
    > > Cameron Purdy
    > > Tangosol, Inc.
    > > Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
    > Maybe, and let me tell you why I don't like SUN. For one, this company is larger and more talked about than it should be. I don't know what people were thinking in 98, but now SUN has nothing to offer to the world (except Java) and it exists only because of it's cache in the bank. This alone makes them dinosaurs and I don't like to see them living when they should be dead, because that's where they're going, there's no turning back for SUN.


    here comes the specialist to predict the future.


    > Another thing, I'm younger. I've never took it for granted that you have to learn for days before editing a text or installing your own operating system. Whenever I encounter a SUN server is the same story : outperformed by the developer P4 boxes around it (if it's less than a 4 way UltraSparc III), expensive as hell, nobody can use it except for the Solaris admin, and that guy is usually an irritating character that confuses the learning of the scribbles of bash with amassing IQ points and has a bad habit of calling me and other users 'lusers'. Not than I would want in any way to have an account on that server, but for some reason the company thinks that we should use that tractor of a server.


    gee, I wouldn't put you as manager. go to the telecom companies, ask them what kind of servers they are using. it's UNIX baby. try to understand why.


    > In short, SUN has no place in my conscience, all I can think of when I see a SUN server environment is archaic, granddaddy, over the hill.



    you sure have a distorted view of the reality. sun makes processors, operating systems, programming languages, specifications. it takes a lot of inovation to pull out something like that you know. yeah, they may have some problems with their business model ( world is changing ), but they will get out of it i am sure. sun had a great view of the future when they created java, and this is proved by the fact that so many ISV use/ implement their technologies/specifications. their hardware sales may go slower now, but i trust they will adapt.

    > And wow, all the analysts and all the benchmarks in the world agree with me. Hey, my distorted view of the world is actually true !
    >
    > And wake up, the open source community is not going to keep java alive. The open source community can't do that. When the hell din the open source community produce anything near the quality of the commercial counterparts? Apache is only thing I can think of. Linux is heavily sponsored by IBM and copy/pasted from SCO's code it seems. The open source community will provide us with ants and xdoclets and stuff like this. This is the league it's playing in.

    you're right. i wonder myself why this kind of crap ( open source + java ) is still used by so many people. we all should pay microsoft!
    look pal, i am fed up with your constant java/linux/open source bashing. why do you keep coming onto these forums if you don;t get anything? i am sure microsoft's forums are much nicer. go there please.
  19. Well done Gerald![ Go to top ]

    <quote>here comes the specialist to predict the future.</quote>

    I'm not going to argue with that, I have only one thing to say. Let's wait and see :-)
      
    <quote>gee, I wouldn't put you as manager. go to the telecom companies, ask them what kind of servers they are using. it's UNIX baby. try to understand why.
    </quote>

    Because UNIX is not dead yet, is just dying. Again, let's wait and see.

    <quote>
    you sure have a distorted view of the reality. sun makes processors, operating systems, programming languages, specifications. it takes a lot of inovation to pull out something like that you know. yeah, they may have some problems with their business model ( world is changing ), but they will get out of it i am sure. sun had a great view of the future when they created java, and this is proved by the fact that so many ISV use/ implement their technologies/specifications. their hardware sales may go slower now, but i trust they will adapt.
    </quote>

    Sun makes specifications? That's an innovation? Many makes specifications, and some better than SUN's. Sun makes operating systems ? So what. Many do, only some succeed. I don't see a future for Solaris.
    Now Java, yes, that's one cool thing from SUN.

    <quote>
    you're right. i wonder myself why this kind of crap ( open source + java ) is still used by so many people. we all should pay microsoft!
    </quote>
    Microsoft has nothing to do with this. If you want to contradict me on this, please give me examples of serious, large scale (not Jtest kind of stuff) open source products that are anywhere near their commercial counterparts. I'll be very surprised if you produce more than 3 (and even so).
     
    <quote>
    look pal, i am fed up with your constant java/linux/open source bashing. why do you keep coming onto these forums if you don;t get anything? i am sure microsoft's forums are much nicer. go there please.
    </quote>
    I'm coming to this forum because for the better or the worst I'm working as a Java developer. And unlike many others I don't have “emotions” about Java or C#, or Sun or Microsoft and I'm getting tired of this fanaticism for open source and MS is the devil and all this s**it. IT MAKES A BAD IMPRESSION ON ME as a java developer and previously C# developer. I DON'T MIX RELIGION WITH MY DAY JOB!
    Let me catch my breath, I'm going to scream again :-)
    I POST ON THIS FORUM BECAUSE I CARE ! (does that sound familiar ? :) )
    I WANNA SEE IF ALL THE JAVA DEVELOPERS ARE ALSO PRIESTS or there are a few who have the sole criteria of efficiency and don't think in the terms of : Sun good, MS bad. You may be soo good at what you do, but if i were a manager i wouldn't hire you if you paid me, zealot :-)
    [hope you detected the humor in this last sentence , don't want you to feel offended]
  20. Well done Gerald![ Go to top ]

    I'm coming to this forum because for the better or the worst I'm working as a Java developer. And unlike many others I don't have “emotions” about Java or C#, or Sun or Microsoft and I'm getting tired of this fanaticism for open source and MS is the devil and all this s**it. IT MAKES A BAD IMPRESSION ON ME as a java developer and previously C# developer. I DON'T MIX RELIGION WITH MY DAY JOB!


    this has nothing to do with religion or day job. i, as many others have my own opinions regarding some people/companies/tools/whatever. i am sure .net has some interesting features and has some areas in which does things better than java. however, i do not agree with microsoft's policy in the market. how they destroyed netscape, how they signed fishy deals with hardware vendors, SCO process, and many other things. there is nothing wrong in fighting for your product, but, please, don't sabotage your competition. do you remember the early days of windows, when winapi was kept secret by microsoft?
    so i say, microsoft is evil ;)

    > Let me catch my breath, I'm going to scream again :-)
    > I POST ON THIS FORUM BECAUSE I CARE ! (does that sound familiar ? :) )
    > I WANNA SEE IF ALL THE JAVA DEVELOPERS ARE ALSO PRIESTS or there are a few who have the sole criteria of efficiency and don't think in the terms of : Sun good, MS bad. You may be soo good at what you do, but if i were a manager i wouldn't hire you if you paid me, zealot :-)



    i may be a zealot as you say, however, i think with my own head ;). i have my own opinions. and i do what i believe is right, not just going to learn c#, because the bill gates has bet the company on it.




    > [hope you detected the humor in this last sentence , don't want you to feel offended]


    don't worry, i actually realise that you slowly begin to understand how things go with java and open source ;). this is why you keep visiting these forums. you're not the only one, count me in :). there is always something new to learn.
  21. Hating Sun?[ Go to top ]

    Edward: Maybe, and let me tell you why I don't like SUN. For one, this company is larger and more talked about than it should be.

    That seems very petty to me, even if it is true that Sun is "more talked about than it should be." For example, I think JBoss is more talked about than it should be, but that's because it has a one-man PR team as its head who could sell sand to desert wanderers. However, that's not a reason to hate JBoss.

    Edward: I don't know what people were thinking in 98, but now SUN has nothing to offer to the world (except Java) and it exists only because of it's cache in the bank.

    That is not true either. Sun makes a lot of things. They are mostly boring (servers, Unix OS, etc.) but most things that companies make are boring. Sun was at the right place at the right time -- their servers worked, and at the time were competitive in performance (but not competitive on cost with PCs).

    Edward: This alone makes them dinosaurs and I don't like to see them living when they should be dead

    You sound like Bill Gates talking about banks. He said those exact words years ago. Strangely enough, there are still banks.

    However, Sun (unlike most banks) is actually trying to do new things and compete in an industry that is hyper-competitive. I don't know if they will make it .. personally, other than Java, it doesn't make any difference to me.

    Edward: Another thing, I'm younger. I've never took it for granted that you have to learn for days before editing a text or installing your own operating system.

    In other words, you learned on Windows. Good for you! (Me too.) Yeah, Unix is definitely not Windows. I think vi and emacs suck too. Hey, we're all entitled to our own opinions. And you will find in life that people are quite comfortable with what they already know, as it appears you are.

    Edward: Whenever I encounter a SUN server is the same story : outperformed by the developer P4 boxes around it (if it's less than a 4 way UltraSparc III), expensive as hell

    Yes, but the developer (or heck, the home game machine) P4 boxes are significantly faster than everything, including the multi-processor Intel servers, which also cost an arm and a leg and have no real reliability features built into them (you just count on MTBF.) In other words, it is not reasonable to expect a server to have the same per-CPU performance as a desktop. That said, if Sun can't compete on price/performance with other server vendors, then they will lose that business, and they already have lost some of that business.

    Edward: nobody can use it except for the Solaris admin, and that guy is usually an irritating character that confuses the learning of the scribbles of bash with amassing IQ points and has a bad habit of calling me and other users 'lusers'. Not than I would want in any way to have an account on that server, but for some reason the company thinks that we should use that tractor of a server.

    Well, you can't blame Sun for your company's inability to hire personable people. Try yelling at the people in HR .. that always worked for me.

    Edward: And wake up, the open source community is not going to keep java alive. The open source community can't do that. When the hell din the open source community produce anything near the quality of the commercial counterparts?

    Inertia is what keeps things alive. Inertia, or in the case of certain competing products with limited market appeal, huge piles of money ;-)

    As for open source and quality, it's hit or miss. Some projects are very well done. Many suck. Just like commercial software.

    Anyway, you can like or hate whomever you want to; that's your prerogative. However, it takes a lot of energy to hate, so make sure you have some good reasons before you waste that energy on Sun.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  22. Hating Sun?[ Go to top ]

    Anyway, you can like or hate whomever you want to; that's your prerogative. However, it takes a lot of energy to hate, so make sure you have some good reasons before you waste that energy on Sun.

    >

    I don't actually hate SUN :-) I just get annoyed when they get a lot of credit.
    It's not more than 10 minutes a day :-)
  23. Hating Sun?[ Go to top ]

    The problem isn't Sun per se. The problem is that McNealy uses his notoriety to promote his hideously right-wing political views, which border on fascism in their animosity towards freedom and civil liberties.
  24. Java Enterprise Systems[ Go to top ]

    I've heard about the new licensing scheme of Java Enterprise Systems from a SUN sales rep recently. I think this will put pressure on BEA and can help SUN to re-gain some market shares on Java software.
  25. Hating Sun?[ Go to top ]

    The problem isn't Sun per se. The problem is that McNealy uses his notoriety to promote his hideously right-wing political views, which border on fascism in their animosity towards freedom and civil liberties.

    I do not know whay som many of you in the US are so ignorant. Many people call others fascist and they do not even know what fascism is. They hear somewhere that fascism is about corporative state and they believe it is about something like US corporations.
  26. Well done Gerald![ Go to top ]

    Edward,

    >... nobody can use it >except for the Solaris admin, and that guy is usually an irritating >character that confuses the >learning of the scribbles of bash with amassing IQ points and >has a bad habit of calling me >and other users 'lusers.

    I think it's true in your case.
  27. Well done Gerald![ Go to top ]

    See, One Man _can_ make a difference!


    And the difference is probably applicable only for that _One Man_.
    Interesting to know that a successful man is judged by the differences he makes and not by his/her contributions.

    surajeet
  28. big loss to us[ Go to top ]

    I hope Sun can turn themselves around. The software industry will be a lesser place without the innovations of Sun.

    Bill
  29. big loss to us.....[ Go to top ]

    The Open source people will take care of Java. Who needs sun, I hope they die. This clown Schwartz is going to ruin that company. When people like Ed Zander and now Bill Joy leave, you know there are some big problems. McNeely is a jackass and Jonathan Schwartz is quickly becoming the biggest joke in software.
  30. big loss to us.....[ Go to top ]

    The Open source people will take care of Java. Who needs sun, I hope they die. This clown Schwartz is going to ruin that company. When people like Ed Zander and now Bill Joy leave, you know there are some big problems. McNeely is a jackass and Jonathan Schwartz is quickly becoming the biggest joke in software.


    What's your problem?? The problem with Sun's financial position is something todo with economic conditions and the market. Its well known fact that the market is tough. And sun's big cash cow Solaris is seeing a rough road b'cos of not much new investment into IT infra structure and crowded market place.

    But it does not mean, sun is doing something wrong. Yes, as a company which created Java, they have all the right to control. In my comparison, sun is much better than MS.

    Even for the open source and Linux communities to succeed we need strong java and clear leadership and responsibility.

    I dont see sun is having any problem. They will bounce back. And i want them to bounce back.

    BTW, leaving of somebody from the company does not make any company weaker. Yes, Bill Joy is much respected. But there are people to follow his legacy and continue the work he left. Thats how every corporate functions. Do you get it???
  31. big loss to us[ Go to top ]

    I hope Sun can turn themselves around. The software industry will be a lesser place without the innovations of Sun.

    >
    > Bill

    No worries. Let Sun run its own course, and should it fall, then there will always be JBOSS ready to take the helm of _inovations_ in place. Alas! JBOSS get certified _automatically_ ;) Problem solved!

    And Bill, you may get your way around aspecting the java language, the JBOSS way :) Wouldn't that be a real bonus?

    And some of us may eventually sleep in peacefull nights :)

    /bernard
  32. Sun to post a big loss[ Go to top ]

    Well, there are ups and downs in business. I would not say Sun is dead or going to be dead any time soon. Their server business might not be blooming right now, but they are still innovating:

    http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/22353.html

    If they can push out their new chip technology out soon enough, Sun might have something that the competition can only dream about.
  33. 4B is still a lot to survive[ Go to top ]

    1 their server sales are hit badly by HP, IBM , dell ( and mac too )
    2 they dont make tons of money thru java licenses or Solaris ( these days)
    3 they had to come out in desktop market to survive - [i dont think they ever thought they would - but reality sucks ]
    4 we should wait for them to hit the market with their server ranch concept - grid computing / processor sharing and see if industry accepts it

    SUN puts huge resurces in R & D and they are betting a lot on that. I still think 40,000 employees is still a lot and they can cut about 5%.

    Next 1 year will give us better picture as to what happens with SUN.

    But till then 4B is still a lot.
  34. IBM Java[ Go to top ]

    http://siliconvalley.internet.com/news/article.php/3085811
  35. Sun to post a big loss[ Go to top ]

    Read news on Merrill analyst's open letter to SUNW:

    http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/031002/1211000650_2.html
  36. Linux view link:[ Go to top ]

    http://newsforge.com/newsforge/03/10/02/1240243.shtml?tid=3
    .V
  37. And to add insult to injury...[ Go to top ]

    Apparently Merrill Lynch has a few things to say...

    www.internetnews.com/bus-news

    All I can say is OUCH!

    I often find it ironic that Java is one of Sun's greatest and most successful contributions to the computing community at large, but the greatest financial benefit to Sun as a result of Java has been a lawsuit against M$, which was pocket change in the grand scheme of things.

    I'm no MBA but last I checked this isn't what you'd call a sustainable business model.
  38. And to add insult to injury...[ Go to top ]

    McNealy apparently has a MBA from Stanford but that did not seem to help :-(
  39. Bravo Sun![ Go to top ]

    The very fact that Sun has not profited from Java goes to show it's sincere intent in promoting it. Thank you Sun, for your evangelization and patronage of Java.
  40. Bravo Sun![ Go to top ]

    The very fact that Sun has not profited from Java goes to show it's sincere intent in promoting it. Thank you Sun, for your evangelization and patronage of Java.


    You aren't joking, are you? Do you think McNealy is a Marxist?
  41. Bravo Sun![ Go to top ]

    I don't care about McNealy. If IBM or some other company had invented Java or were in charge of it, they would have wreaked havoc. It is difficult for corporates to play the academical role. Sun has played it well, or as best as is possible for a corporate.
  42. Bravo Sun![ Go to top ]

    Please don't tell me you actually think Sun is giving Java away as a community service!

    Again, I'm no MBA, but last I checked the whole reason to be in business is to make money. ESPECIALLY if you are a publically held company! The board of directors isn't interested in making some contribution of good-will to the community. They're interested in keeping the share holders happy! Share holders want money! You don't buy Sun stock because you get a warm fuzzy feeling because they're giving Java to the world. You buy Sun stock because you think you'll make cash on the deal! Guess what, you don't make cash if the company don't make cash! As a company you also have to have some way to pay the bills if you are to remain in business! Even non-profit orgs have to make money to pay the bills! They just can't make a profit.

    I can't believe McNealy is ignorant of basic business rules and you can bet the board of directors isn't letting him forget the rules for a second. Java would never have gotten off the ground if there wasn't a business case made somewhere that convinced Sun management that there was money to be had and Java was the tool they needed to make the cash. R&D is simply an expenditure of cash in an attempt to develop new technologies that will make you more cash.

    My question is where did the ball get dropped that converted Java from business potential to an open source community play thing? What was the business case and why didn't it materialize? Sure Java has spawned entire companies like BEA, but how much money has that really made Sun in the grand scheme of things?