Opinion: Porting between Java and C#

Discussions

News: Opinion: Porting between Java and C#

  1. Opinion: Porting between Java and C# (73 messages)

    Simon Harris, writer of Simian (identifies duplication in source code), decided to port the Java program to C#. He has written up his thoughts along the way. He talks about the various changes that he had to make, including items that irrate him (File handling, structs).

    He mentions the performance difference (Java is significantly faster) but notes that this is on Mono, not .NET on Windows.

    My foray into C#

    My foray into C# - Part II

    Simian home page

    Threaded Messages (73)

  2. Opinion: Porting between Java and C#[ Go to top ]

    That was a hillarious writeup. I appreciate the blog because now I can wonder less, "what if I went C#". I have always taken issue with how using MS's dev tools leaves you feeling like they automated it a little too much. Don't get me wrong, I love not having to do work but not at the price of understanding the design or compromising the predictibility of the output. One thing I hate that happens when using VS, VB or even Access, is when I try using a function that doesn't do what I thought it was going to do or the behavior is restricted in a way that causes me to rethink my strategy. Java Rules!
      

    Michael
  3. Opinion: Porting between Java and C#[ Go to top ]

    What an excellent article, written in a way that really makes you want to read on. I have every sympathy, I did exactly the same a year or so ago just to get to understand a little more about C#, it was a painful experience that Simon has articulated well.

    I won't hint at a conclusion but I'm sure we'll see a few, great stuff, keep up the writing Simon.

    -John Davies-
  4. This is interesting. I did not experience that at all. I ported a complete Enterprise application from java to c#. Several thousands lines of code that included the entire domain model, business model and data access model. The transition was real smooth to me. Things that the original post lamented about.
    (c#)public const datatype varName, public static readonly datatype varName vs (java)public static final datatype varName. I fail to see the complaint here. I typically use pulic const for struct and public static readonly for classes. Also, string in c# is also String. The original post indicated that the new keyword string has replaced String. It has not. Checked and Unchecked exception is an entirely different debate. There pros and cons to both.
  5. I too found the process to be very smooth and very easy. In no way did I try and suggest otherwise. At the end of both blogs I clearly stated how easy it was.

    I was really trying to give an accurate account of what it was like to start from knowing nothing, along with all the annoyances and frustrations that comes with it.

    I hear from a mate that C# version 2 will have generics and Iterators and a few things other things.

    Regarding string versus String, you can't (at least using mono) use any of the System classes without "using" the System namespace. This was the thing that seemed ridiculous to me. Unfortunately String (big S) lives in the System namespace. I only found this out after I had converted lots of code so I kept on with the string (little s) convention. This was how I had seen examples written up on the 'net that I was using as a guide.

    As for performance, again, in no way did I try and make out that .Net was necessarily slower. All I reported was what I had found running under mono on gentoo linux. As stated in the blog, hardly a reasonable comparison hehehe.

    I would finish by saying that it is one thing to convert some code from Java to C#. It is another to start from scratch. This I haven't done (nor do I intend to in the near future). But that's more to do with my general state of happiness with what I'm doing in Java and the feeling that because the languages are so similar, I don't see it being that difficult to transition if (god forbid) I ever had to.

    -- Cheers, Simon
  6. OK perhaps "painful" was the wrong word to use, compared with searching for memory leaks in C++, debugging a timing problem in assembler etc. it was relatively easy going. "Hard" is relative, it would still take me several hours to write something in C# that I could do in tens of minutes using IntelliJ and Java.

    I'm not a C# programmer, I have never had to get to know MS C/C++ and I find it hard to convince myself that the world really needs C# when we've already got Java. Still I guess it's here to stay so that why I thought I'd try it. Now I can say I've tried it and I survived.

    -John-
  7. http://www.manageability.org/manageabilityWiki/WhyJavaIsBetterThanDotNet
  8. For real, objective and impartial performance-benchmarks check out
    Werner Vogels: Comparing CLR, Mono, SSCLI and JAVA Performance
    (SSCLI==Rotor)

    http://weblogs.cs.cornell.edu/AllThingsDistributed/archives/000052.html
    000053.html
    000054.html
    000055.html
    000056.html

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  9. Rolf: For real, objective and impartial performance-benchmarks check out
    Werner Vogels: Comparing CLR, Mono, SSCLI and JAVA Performance (SSCLI==Rotor)


    What makes Vogels objective and impartial? The US$60,000,000 that Microsoft gave to his department? Or the independent case study that Microsoft did on his department?

    For all I know, he may somehow be completely objective and impartial despite all of that marketing money from Microsoft, but from where I stand, it stinks like dirty money in politics.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  10. Welcome to the group, Verner![ Go to top ]

    Cameron: "it stinks like dirty money in politics"

    Hmm, well well, now it is Verner Vogels who is discredited! Just like everybody else that publishes benchmarks about Java including your own forum.
    Why do you not take an example of Miguel de Icaza? When Mono's benchmarks are down he says "we will improve" instead of "the benchmarks are faked", "paid by Microsoft" etc etc.

    The situation is like this: Java performance is about par with C# if it gets more memory except Swing which is always slow.

    So why do you not try to improve - including adding shared VM - instead of crying, whining and accusing everybody of fake?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  11. who is whining here??[ Go to top ]

    So why do you not try to improve - including adding shared VM - instead of crying, whining and accusing everybody of fake?


    Simon's article was a great read, and obviously nobody except you got upset by Simon's remark about his preliminary MONO performance result.

    anyway... since .NET is so superior to Java, why are you wasting your precious time here?

    Joe
  12. who is whining here??[ Go to top ]

    You misunderstand.

    Rolf is actually a closet Java Evangelist. In a fiendishly cunning reverse psychology ploy, a ploy so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it Flor the Weasel, Rolf is slowly but surely with his innane ravings, alienating .NET developers and convincing them that .NET proponents are maniacs and Java is the way to go with its better performance, elegance and more moderate, mature developers.

    This reverse ploy has previously been deployed here successfully by Gerald Bauer, a closet Swing Evangelist, against XUL to the extent that thanks to his mindless drivel no sensible developer will touch XUL with the proverbial development barge pole.
  13. Gerald==Rolf?[ Go to top ]

    no no.

    Mr Bauer is pushing open doors. XUL or "XAML" is going to be all over us. Completly uncontreversial.
    http://www.xamlon.com

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  14. Gerald==Rolf![ Go to top ]

    no no.

    >
    > Mr Bauer is pushing open doors. XUL or "XAML" is going to be all over us. Completly uncontreversial.
    > http://www.xamlon.com
    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud

    Now that it was mentioned, yes, they both DO sound very similar... :)

    This is starting to sound like MS is desperate to have more developers porting anything to C#. Maybe the number of new systems being developed in C# is not so great, and this would be a way to increase the amount of development done in .NET... who knows (besides Rolf, of course)?

    Regards,
    Henrique Steckelberg
  15. Welcome to the group, Verner![ Go to top ]

    Rolf: The situation is like this: Java performance is about par with C# if it gets more memory except Swing which is always slow.

    Since Java has both the dominant market presence and lead in performance, it would be more correct to say that C# is about par with Java.

    However, facts have never posed much of an obstacle for you.

    Rolf: So why do you not try to improve - including adding shared VM - instead of crying, whining and accusing everybody of fake?

    Give me $60 million and I'll stop crying.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  16. if he can then you can[ Go to top ]

    Would you be satisfied with $59 million?

    Memory is always a shortage in web application scenarios when many processes compete, since Java uses more memory the performance in real life will always lag behind.

    But then you will probably say, "Java has better memory management":).

    You never can win can you?
    Sometimes I wonder why I care.

    sigh..

    Now when Simon has shown the way, why don’t you follow and make a C# (Mono) implementation of your product? Come on, this is a push push business, not a resting home!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  17. if he can then you can[ Go to top ]

    Rolf: Would you be satisfied with $59 million?

    No, if Cornell got a $60,000,000 bribe from Microsoft, then I want one too, and not a penny less.

    Rolf: Memory is always a shortage in web application scenarios when many processes compete, since Java uses more memory the performance in real life will always lag behind.

    Memory is always a shortage? WTF, mate? Have you ever even seen a server? Come on, even Windows supports over 2GB of RAM now. Java web servers such as Caucho run on almost no memory and are still faster than Apache or IIS.

    Rolf: But then you will probably say, "Java has better memory management":).

    Not Java itself, but any of several JVMs (Sun, IBM, BEA) have significantly more advanced memory management than the CLR. Don't believe me, ask Microsoft ... I've read their announcements for the future garbage collector improvements in the CLR that we've had available in Java for a half decade now.

    Rolf: Now when Simon has shown the way, why don’t you follow and make a C# (Mono) implementation of your product? Come on, this is a push push business, not a resting home!

    Trust me, I'd like some return on all those hours back that we spent on .NET. If there were any clustered enterprise apps running on .NET, we'd release our Coherence.NET product. As for Mono, it's still a distant dream. So far, there is almost no demand for .NET in the enterprise application space, and none for Mono.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  18. Welcome to the group, Verner![ Go to top ]

    So why do you not try to improve - including adding shared VM


    Why should Cameron create a shared JVM? Others have already, like IBM with their persistent JVM. It is meant for large enterprise systems though, so it will not run on your target platform.

    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud
  19. Good catch Cameron!

    I also recall that Vogel's (I remember his face) posted a similar set of benchmarks using SciMark ( http://weblogs.cs.cornell.edu:9000/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=3&search=scimark ).

    SciMark albeit still a micro-benchmark, at least isn't as "micro" as the one referred to by Rolf. Well, I've run that benchmark on my system ( just search my blog www.manageability for "Scimark" ) and I'm happy to tell you that Java 1.4.2 smokes competition by a mile.

    Interestingly enough, Vogels fails to re-visit the same benchmarks and prefers these more "micro" ones to prove a point.

    Carlos
  20. This reply is mainly for Cameron Purdy, but I am doing this publicly so that others may get a better insight in the issues also.

    First of all, with respect to the benchmarks: 1) you can download them from http://cli-grande.sscli.net You can run them on your own machine and determine for yourself how the different runtimes stack up. I am not hiding anything, so you can see for yourself. 2) The benchmarks are aimed at the HPC community, and do not test any enterprise computing scenarios. They tell you something about specific, pure computational scenarios, nothing more or less.

    But I mainly want to respond to Cameron's suggestion that my academic judgment is not to be trusted because of the fact that I use Microsoft technologies as my platform instead of platforms developed by IBM or Sun. I rebutted this statement by Cameron before when he made it on his weblog (http://www.jroller.com/page/cpurdy/20030722). Unfortunately that page appears no longer available, nor is my rebuttal in teh comment section.

    First the story about the $60M & the MS case study: 1) As you can see from the press release this is about the Cornell Theory Center, and has nothing to do with me or my department. 2) the $60M was not in money, but in hardware, networking equipment and software licenses, and not just by MS but also Dell and Intel. 3) The TC used this to build supercomputing facilities to support computational biology, etc.

    (Cameron, you aware of that there is no connection between this funding and me because I wrote this in the comments on your weblog, yet you continue to use this argument to discredit technical reports)

    Secondly about funding from industry for academic research: I have received corporate funding for many, many years as my research focuses on issues that many corporations appear to see as very relevant. This includes IBM, Sun, Intel, Microsoft, Cisco, Siemens, BBN, AT&T, and others. I also received significant funding from the US government. I can/will only accept funding from these corporations if they do not influence in any way the direction my research is taking.

    Third, about MS as a platform for research: I changed from a Unix Guru to a Windows Guru in the mid nineties when Sun decided to pull the plug on my favorite platform; SunOs. The source licenses for Solaris were too restrictive for academic use, so we couldn't use it. We decided to see whether NT, which came with usable academice licenses to the source code, would make a good replacement platform, and stuck with as it turned out to be just as good a platform as any other and sometimes even better. But it turned out that the biggest hurdles too take in research on a windows platform are not technical, but social. Some people (Cameron?) will use the connection to Microsoft to discredit the technical results, regardles of how general applicable they are, I assume based on some religious-style aversion for anything Microsoft.

    I normally wouldn't respond to these issues, but for an academic independence is the core of her/his credibility. I challenge Cameron to come up with proof that my academic results are flawed or skewed towards MS, as he hints at. Or that my results are skewed towards Java because I have also received funding from IBM and Sun.

    Werner Vogels
    All Things Distributed
  21. Okay, maybe Cameron wasn't fair in accusations. However, what I really want to know are:

    Maybe your should show the results of the SciMark benchmarks using the latest JDK 1.4.2 versus .NET 1.1 . SciMark incidentally is part of your cli-grande effort. I see you've done http://weblogs.cs.cornell.edu:9000/mt-search.cgi?IncludeBlogs=3&search=scimark
    this, however its a bit dated (may 9 2003 where IBM JDK 1.3.1 bests the field ) and I say to be completely fair you should at least post the 1.4.2 results (don't forget to use the -server flag!)

    Another thing that you fail to mention in your blog entry is that .NET scimark seems to best java (when it does) in only one of the five algortithms in SciMark.

    Regards,

    Carlos
  22. money to the priest?[ Go to top ]

    Ok, Soon Mono 1.0 will be released and then Java will have competition as cross-platform language and Windows already have competition from Linux. That is all for the good. Competition is good for everybody.

    That promises some interesting discussions. The Swedish composer Hugo Alvén claims that he learned orchestration by inviting members of the orchestra for lunch, when the musicians heatedly argued for their respective instruments, with Alvén listening and hungry dotted down information..

    So I just propose we dispense with the most exaggerate hyperbole.

    I have another suggestion. We all know that TSS is an experimental site, to show that different J2EE servers can work in cluster together. It is now proven and why not at this time concentrate upon one server and optimize for performance and reability – to show that the TSS site, both in Java and .NET version, can be as stable as for instance the Slashdot site. Or else we will maybe both loose to some scripting language..

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  23. Mono 1.0 Coming Soon - Doubt It[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    I've been following Mono pretty closely for over a year now, and I strongly doubt that 1.0 is close to seeing the light of day. The Novell acquisition of Ximian might have slowed it down or even de-prioritized it in favor of Novell's focus on leveraging the real win (ie, the acquisition of SuSE).

    Novell has spoken a lot about SuSE and Ximian in the press, but has said almost nothing about Mono since the purchase. Novell Forge provides a location for the "Mono Community", but it has seemingly less activity than TheServerSide.NET.

    I had hoped that Mono would prove to be a viable cross-platform entry point for non-trivial .NET architecture and development projects, but I just haven't seen it reaching that point. The project seems to be slowing down, perhaps due to a Novell-inspired shift toward Eclipse membership and a BEA partnership. I have gotten the impression that the Mono Project is starting to wind down a bit, or at the very least is much farther off from a 1.0 release than just a couple of months.

    Mike

  24. >> Ok, Soon Mono 1.0 will be released and then Java will have
    >> competition as cross-platform language
    >>

    I cant believe how often this is stated as if it was accepted fact.

    Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Despite the best efforts of the Mono team, Mono will never be a serious deployment target for .net applications - and I cant think of a single IT decision maker that would deploy a commercial application on anything else than Windows.

    1) For UI applications, the UI libraries are not part of the ECMA standard - and it is unlikely that the Mono team will have any more success than the Wine Team in providing a compatible implementation of the Winforms libraries on non-windows OS's. In any case, Winforms is going to have a short lifespan - its going to be superseded by the UI efforts in Longhorn.

    2) For Enterprise applications, none of the enterprise services are part of the standards, and they will suffer the same fate trying to provide a compatible implementation without any documented standard (and Microsoft have a vested interest in Mono not succeding in this arena).

    In short, it will be a target for some open-source applications - it may run some commercial desktop applications - though I cant see any vendors putting any effort into it.

    As far as giving any real competition to Java on cross-platform portability - it wont happen.

    -Nick
  25. Nick,

    >Mono will never be a serious deployment target for .net applications..
    Microsoft has a vested interest in Mono not succeeding in this arena..
    it won’t happen..

    How can you be so sure, how do you know that "it won't happen"?

    "PC will never make an alternative to Mainframe.."
    "MS could never compete against Apple.."
    "Navigator is so much better than IE".
    "Lotus is so much better than Exchange.."
    "SQL Server will never be able to compete with Oracle.."

    And so on and so on. It is obviously difficult to see into the future!

    It is in all developers’ interest that nobody makes money from developing languages - as Sun does in this moment.

    Jason Hunter says:
    "Software tends to drift from the GPL type of license to the BSD type of license over a period of time in the same way that software tends to drift from proprietary to Open Source". GPL is not completely free so the osmosis goes on.. Like a law of nature.

    For all the talk of .NET and Mono remember that it is still Java - just another name.

    I put my trust in the laws of nature!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  26. partiality and objectiveness[ Go to top ]

    Werner: But I mainly want to respond to Cameron's suggestion that my academic judgment is not to be trusted because of the fact that I use Microsoft technologies as my platform instead of platforms developed by IBM or Sun. I rebutted this statement by Cameron before when he made it on his weblog (http://www.jroller.com/page/cpurdy/20030722). Unfortunately that page appears no longer available, nor is my rebuttal in teh comment section.

    I did not see your comment when you posted it, but that page in my blog is still there (and unedited,) and so is your comment, which I read it for the first time today.

    As for trusting your judgement, why should I blindly trust your judgement? Help me out here. If I make a claim, would you blindly trust it? Just because you are technical or work for a university does not make you any more or less trustworthy than any other individual in this world.

    As for the benchmarks you posted, as I stated in my blog: "(BTW - I have verified many of his results, so without going into technical details, it is safe to say that he isn't lying or something like that. Perhaps he just doesn't know how to run benchmarks on a JVM very well?)" Yes, that's right, I downloaded the benchmarks, and ran some of them just to see what you were looking at, and using the default JVM settings (i.e. no command line options, as you told me in an email way back then, if I remember correctly) I got the same results that you did, give or take a margin of error (and adjusted for the fact that I was on different hardware etc.) I think I even emailed you at the time to ask why you didn't bother to set any command line JVM options, which is not at all atypical when you are doing things like benchmarking. It's been a while, but when I was doing .NET benchmarking on multi-proc machines, I remember having to copy DLLs around or rename them or something like that, or the numbers came out absolutely atrocious! So if copying around DLLs by hand is OK, I think configuring some memory parameters (for example) should be acceptable ;-).

    As for the marketing, Microsoft (like Sun, IBM and many others) does fund a number of efforts to get "independently published results." Companies don't want their marketing to stink of themselves, and unfortunately for these companies, engineers are pretty darn good at figuring out where the stink is coming from. In the case of Microsoft, we've seen that with a report published by TheServerSide.com (this site) which initially didn't bother to point out that it had been set up by Microsoft and funded by Microsoft and performed in Microsoft's own labs. We've seen that with a supposedly independent "J2EE to .NET porting experience" paper that initially didn't bother to point out that it was initiated by Microsoft and funded by Microsoft. Why should we blindly believe that any numbers that are posted anywhere are not tainted by the invisible hand of marketing dollars? I'm a cynic in this regard, but I have very good reason to be a cynic. And despite being a cynic in this regard, what I wrote in my blog was quite balanced. I am pro-Java, but I'm not anti-.NET ... just anti-ignorance and anti-close-your-eyes-and-blindly-eat-marketing-pablum.

    Remember, this thread (scroll up) made the statement (regarding your blog), "For real, objective and impartial performance-benchmarks ..." -- yet gave no supporting evidence that you are objective and impartial. I'm not impartial -- I have no problem telling you that I see Java as being a good thing for technology and for our industry. In fact, if you like .NET, then you probably agree, because a lot of the elegance that is in .NET is directly attributable to Java (just like a lot of the elegance that is in Java can be directly attributed to other technologies that preceded it.)

    In fact, I'm quite partial. I'm partial to Microsoft Windows and Office as my OS and office suite of choice. (That nixes the "Cameron is religiously anti-Microsoft" argument, unfortunately.) I'm partial to Java as my development platform of choice. I'm partial to Mozilla as my browser of choice. To SharpReader (built in C#) as my RSS reader of choice. To IDEA as my tool-vendor of choice. To SAAB as my car of choice. To the Red Sox as my baseball team of choice. If that doesn't make me partial, then I must not be trying hard enough.

    Personally, from reading what you write, I don't find you to be impartial either. You may be an academic, but that doesn't make you impartial. You can claim that you try to be objective (as I could claim for myself, at least occasionally) but there's a big difference between objective and impartial. And partiality and objectiveness will always be in conflict -- that is the nature of the beast.

    However, I should have been more careful to direct my bile at the troll that caused the reflux, and not at you, and for that I do apologize.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  27. "The source licenses for Solaris were too restrictive for academic use, so we couldn't use it. We decided to see whether NT, which came with usable academice licenses to the source code, would make a good replacement platform, and stuck with as it turned out to be just as good a platform as any other and sometimes even better"

    Sorry, you just lost your credibility. You did not find any other platform whose licenses would suit you, not one? What proportion of academic research out there uses NT to do their research? Logically, the number should be significant if NT is "as good a platform as any other and sometimes even better", as you claim. Then, why is that not the case?
  28. Hey,
    i wasn't even interested in this thread, since i don't do C#, i have nothing against it, it is just that nobody ever required it, since all the jobs are java jobs.
    But, reading Werner's comment, i have to say that, it doesn't look good. Werner, you want your hands look clean, but money doesn't come for nothing. Hmm, and your answer really looks like a poor cover up.
    This is just looking from outside, by a bystander,who happened to stumble upon this thread, and just presenting observations..
    And please, don't pull that "academician = integrity" trick. None of us are that stupid to equate the two. We all lived through the academia scandals.
  29. Unix Guru to a Windows Guru[ Go to top ]

    What one has to do to be Unix/Windows guru, besides being an academic?
  30. Unix Guru to a Windows Guru[ Go to top ]

    well, being able to think is one thing you need for sure...
  31. Porting from C# to Java[ Go to top ]

    Abount a year ago I spent a few months porting a lot of code from C# to Java, and it was somewhat straightforward since I used IntelliJ. I simply renamed every single file from .cs to .java, then loaded them into IntelliJ and just changed everything, till the rightmost bar lost its last red line. The most problematic aspects was properties, which I went through stages of liking and hating, till finally I found them pretty useless. Plus the infuriatingly stupid naming convention in C#, where pretty much everything starts with an uppercase letter: Classes, properties, functions, namespaces, etc etc etc.

    Interestingly I also found two cases where Microsofts C# implementation didn't follow the ECMA spec. Then again, what did I expect? But I should also give credit to the ECMA spec, which is of really high quality. Good documentation!
  32. Opinion: Porting between Java and C#[ Go to top ]

    Shouldn´t TSS.COM post "C# to Java" migration paths instead of the opposite?? I mean, I see this more related to .NET users than to Java Users. Is this some kind of more-in-depth political move from TSS??? Will TSS finally come to be an all Microsoft shop????:-)
  33. C# to Java?[ Go to top ]

    > Shouldn´t TSS.COM post "C# to Java" migration paths instead of the opposite??

    Naaagh, firstly there's not enough C# code around to make it worth writing and secondly anyone with enough brains to be able to read it would have written it in Java in the first place. :-)

    -John-
  34. Yes, C# to Java, it happens[ Go to top ]

    I agree totally, anyone with a brain will prefer to write a new app in Java and not C#. I was just porting a C# app written by someone else.
  35. C# to Java?[ Go to top ]

    "anyone with enough brains to be able to read it would have written it in Java in the first place"

    For some definitions of "it" you certainly have an argument. For other "it"s you don't. For any GUI app (for a .NET target OS) C# would be a much better choice.
  36. C# to Java?[ Go to top ]

    Sartoris: For any GUI app (for a .NET target OS) C# would be a much better choice.

    When you say "a .NET target OS", you just mean Windows 2000 (and later versions of it like XP, 2003, etc.) right?

    Yes that is true, for GUI apps for Windows 2000, .NET is a lot easier than Java.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  37. C# to Java?[ Go to top ]

    <Cameron>
    When you say "a .NET target OS", you just mean Windows 2000 (and later versions of it like XP, 2003, etc.) right?
    </Cameron>

    He probably means an implementation of CLI running on any OS -- in which case C# would still be the choice.
  38. C# to Java?[ Go to top ]

    He probably means an implementation of CLI running on any OS -- in which case C# would still be the choice.


    when i am looking for a
    - speedy, robust platform independent language
    - with decent, platform independet low level + enterprise level class libraries
    then i would chose Java..

    Okay, and if my client insists on native GUI support, i would use SWT, otherwise SWING.

    If the client *STILL* asks for a .NET application, then i can conclude that this client already suffers from MS lock-in. Hence, the decision for .NET would not be a technical decision and would have nothing to do with performance benchmarks or nice little language constructs and such

    Joe
  39. C# to Java?[ Go to top ]

    Dilip: He probably means an implementation of CLI running on any OS -- in which case C# would still be the choice.

    No, he said GUI, which (for .NET) means Windows. I can't take a Windows GUI built with .NET and run it on Mono. Yes, they'll eventually get 60% or 70% of it to work, but I'm still better off working in C++ with various cross-platform toolkits than I am with C#/.NET if I need to support more than Windows. The Windows API (the same functions we were coding against in the 80s -- even the wndproc itself) are part of .NET and for many GUI features have to be coded into the app ....

    For cross-platform GUI, you're much better off with Java. For Windows-only (meaning 32-bit Windows 2000, XP and 2003) GUI, you're better off with .NET.

    I haven't looked in the past few months, but this issue was a huge headache early on and still was a headache (for Mono) even a few months ago. It's WINE all over again :(

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  40. Not so fast...[ Go to top ]

    Sartoris:
    For any GUI app (for a .NET target OS) C# would be a much better choice.

    Cameron:
    For Windows-only (meaning 32-bit Windows 2000, XP and 2003) GUI, you're better off with .NET.

    In fact, neither of these are a given.

    1) If your serverside is Java-based, then using Java (and RMI) on the client is considerably simpler (than mixing technologies).

    2) Deployment technologies such as JNLP (Java Web Start) are extremely compelling in a corporate environment (MS' Click-Once is a ways off yet...)

    3) Depending on the complexity of the application, informed opinion favours Swing. For simple form-based apps, .net (and visual tools) is simpler - however the excellent JGoodies Forms Layout Manager reduces the gap considerably. For more complex applications, the feedback I have heard/seen/read is that there is neither the maturity nor the flexibility in the framework (e.g. over-usage of "sealed" and under-usage of interfaces makes for limited extendibility...).

    4) Tools such as JNIWrapper make it pretty trivial to get tighter java Desktop App integration with the Windows desktop (System tray, balloons etc) - reducing some of the compelling reasons to use a windows-specific platform.

    5) Client-side containers such as Eclipse (Rich Client Platform) are very compelling - nothing comparable on the .net side. We have been using Eclipse as a client-side container for a little while now...

    -Nick
  41. I should add[ Go to top ]

    I should add that using (free, open source) JGoodies Look&Feel's and Forms Layout Manager make it quite simple to get some very professional looking results with Swing.

    -Nick
  42. Time and GUI[ Go to top ]

    Creating GUI in Java is great fun and indeed not so difficult, and let there be no doubt that you can create great looking GUI with Java. But how long does it take you to do so manually?

    With the other alternative such as using an IDE like JBuilder, you can create a GUI in no time but you can also kiss your maintainability goodbye.

    So when you compare .NET with JAVA, compare GUI-building Java-tools with Visual Studio.NET, I think that Visual Studio is still way ahead of any GUI-builder for JAVA.
  43. Time and GUI[ Go to top ]

    |
    | Visual Studio is still way ahead of any GUI-builder for JAVA
    |

    The thing is that Visual GUI Builders are not particularly suitable for Java (Swing). Swing has more behaviour than you can easily represent visually.

    How, for example, to you visually represent/design such things as resizing behaviour in relation to layouts? How do you represent dynamic UI's (where the visual components you see are driven by the data)

    I believe that if you have a good Layout Manager, you can quickly and easily do layout programmatically / declaritively - and get professional looking results.

    -Nick
  44. Time and GUI[ Go to top ]

    The thing is that Visual GUI Builders are not particularly suitable for Java (Swing). Swing has more behaviour than you can easily represent visually.

    >
    > How, for example, to you visually represent/design such things as resizing behaviour in relation to layouts? How do you represent dynamic UI's (where the visual components you see are driven by the data)
    >
    > I believe that if you have a good Layout Manager, you can quickly and easily do layout programmatically / declaritively - and get professional looking results.
    >
    > -Nick


    I agree with you that Java offers a lot of advantages, that's not my point. I prefer to create my GUI in Java (manually), that way I keep 100% control over each element, but doing it this way takes time even with good Layout management. I still drag and drop a lot faster in comparison to typing text.

    My point was that when somebody makes a comparison between .Net-GUI and JAVA-GUI, you have to make the difference between Java-builders who are still not at the same level as Visual studio (VS and Java-builders both deliver the same crappy code but VS is user-friendlier) and manually creating the GUI with Java where you get good code but you suffer a considerable time-penalty.

    Unfortunally time is in most cases very important. A lot of the smaller (non-IT) customers prefer still a quick and dirty solution. "If it looks good and it's done in a day or two, it's great." And this is a segment of the market where VB with Visual studio beats everybody by far.
  45. Time and GUI[ Go to top ]

    |
    |And this is a segment of the market where VB with Visual studio beats
    |everybody by far.
    |

    You have to make a distinction here between VB and VB.net - there is a big difference between the two - esp in the context of this argument.

    If referring to VB6, I would agree with you - but, sadly, VB6 is dead...

    If referring to VB.Net / VS.net, I would be less inclined to agree.

    -Nick
  46. Most people would not undertake a porting project without doing some prior research into the capabilities of the target language. I though for the most part developers had learned that just jumping straight into coding was perhaps not the most intelligent idea in the world. Porting via direct keyword replacement is pretty much a waste of time and effort as a learning experience, the IDE replace functions do all the work and the developer is a disconnected party. We all know it can be done at this stage so whats the point. As a result we see this type of article complaining, albeit good humouredly, about trivia which are for the most part clashes with the Authors prior experience and expectations, not intrinsic faults in the language.

    I like C# but do find it a bit more verbose than I would prefer. It does not have the elegance of Java (then again take a look at Jakarta Primitives to see how it can all go badly wrong) but it does have some interesting capabilities which make up for that fairly minor shortcoming. When I initially looked at "the explosion in an ascii factory" that is Perl or the seemingly haphazard layout of Python modules I was baffled as to how anyone could possibly create an ordered system out of such chaos. Now, whilst not my languages of choice I see where they have their uses. It takes time and a little bit of willingness to be open to new styles and concepts to gain better understanding. There is no one style to rule all programming languages and personally I find it interesting to have my habits and pre conceptions challenged from time to time.


    A few people have posted positive experiences porting in both directions which is hardly surprising given the similarities of the languages. I'm curious though if anyone has been in a position where a decision has been made for technical reasons or PHB edict (not just out of developer curiosity) to port a project in either direction and what the justification was.
  47. Get a grip...[ Go to top ]

    I am just so sick and tired of this Java is better arrogance. First of all there is no do all great crystal ball language or parsay environment. Some languages are more suited for certain types of applications than others, it's a fact of life. Java is not the holy grail and I don't belive there is one. In regards to C# it is a Well formed language and has some things that Java does not i.e delegates and so on, it is easy to work with like Java but suites differn't purposes, for all you Java is the way folks not ever problem is a nail, and I have to make one comment on a response that someone sent saying I never learned C++, so how is it that you are an ecellent Java programmer when you never learned best practices, memory (heap vs non heap) etc. and real formal design, thats just stupid to say. Just a note C# was created because SUN did not want to play ball with Microsoft and vice versa, these companies try to brain wash everybody into thinking they have the way, and you are all guilty of this pretensious behavior..Remember not ever problem requires a hammer so lets cut the non sense out!
  48. Get a grip...[ Go to top ]

    I don't get why Java developers behave to C# just like the Smalltalkers behaved when Java became trendy. Therefore - hats off to Simon for trying. I'd conclude it like this: "I went fishing in this new river, and although I had no clue about the hatch, the flies I had caught some decent sized fish. But I still like my old waters better."
    <P>
    Translates to: I think his report is not as anti-C# as a java-locked-in mind might read it.
    <P>
    If you become too ignorant, you might go the way Smalltalk went. The dinosaur way.
  49. Get a grip...[ Go to top ]

    You know I'm pretty tired of the saying "not ever problem requires a hammer" used to rationalize "my situation is unique" and then to justify "re-inventing the wheel". The clear and simple fact is that Java is good enough for just about every problem for web based or enterprise development.

    .NET in general is chosen primarilly for political reasons, anyone believing such a selection is based on technical merits is deluding oneself. Case in point, I've got 101 reasons why ( http://www.manageability.org/manageabilityWiki/WhyJavaIsBetterThanDotNet ), anyone out there willing to put together counter arguments?

    Any takers? Anyone?

    Carlos
  50. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    So the venerable professor's micro-benchmark is thrown at the garbage heap together with the other 20+ something benchmarks - not a single one showing Java as the winner.

    the power of the human beings to deceive themselves is apparently without any bounds..

    :-)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  51. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    The benchmark numbers I posted (and which were for a benchmark written by a .NET developer, if you remember) showed Java winning by a large, large margin. That sounds like one for one to me.

    Would you like me to dig up those links to embarrass you again?

    (This stupidity can go on as long as you wish.)

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  52. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    I am not to sure what you guys are on, but that is some powerful stuff. All you have to do is to install .Net using C# on win2k3. I dare you! Java/Linux cannot come close. I can speak so authoritatively because I have 5 years of java and linux under my belt. That is why I have moved over to C#.
  53. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    We are not using Windoze anymore so .Not is out of the question.

    Java just works there is no hype in here.
  54. NASA uses Java in MARS[ Go to top ]

    Maestro is a full Java desktop environment used at the NASA to operate the Spirit's Rover. A public version of Maestro is also available: it uses latest data from the Rover and thus lets you virtually explore Mars!

    http://mars.telascience.org/

    Run the app in Linux
    http://www.newsforge.com/software/04/01/08/1516238.shtml?tid=2&tid=82&tid=94
  55. NASA uses Java in MARS[ Go to top ]

    <lightHeartedFun>
    One likely has nothing to do with the other, but in light of the post title this was just too funny not to post.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/01/22/spirit.contact/index.html

    </lightHeartedFun>

    :-)
  56. NASA uses Java in MARS[ Go to top ]

    Hehe, that was really funny. You just made my day.

    :-)
  57. NASA uses Java in MARS[ Go to top ]


    One likely has nothing to do with the other, but in light of the post title this was just too funny not to post.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/01/22/spirit.contact/index.html


    It's probably working fine, in fact there's a whole bunch of guys at Nasa looking at a blue screen thinking the Rover's broken. In fact it's just the blue screen of death we all know and love. :-)

    Seriously though it's sad news. :-(

    -John-
  58. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    Mackie: I am not to sure what you guys are on, but that is some powerful stuff.

    I take a vitamin every day, maybe that did it?

    Mackie: All you have to do is to install .Net using C# on win2k3. I dare you!

    Actually, I have several versions of .NET installed on my Win2K(not3) notebook. I've been using .NET on and off since before it was released. It's not bad, but neither is VB6, PowerBuilder or Delphi, the three products it actually competes against.

    Mackie: Java/Linux cannot come close. I can speak so authoritatively because I have 5 years of java and linux under my belt. That is why I have moved over to C#.

    There's a certain personal taste involved as well. I "grew up" developing on Windows, so when I first saw *nix, I almost laughed. Actually, I did laugh. ("You people still use a command line? You think this (vi) is an editor?")

    There's also a set of requirements involved. If you're "lucky" enough to be a one-vendor shop, then some things are easier. Most companies won't risk their important infrastructure on Windows, though, so they use a server OS instead, typically Unix although we're seeing more and more Linux too. On the server side, the trend is definitely away from Windows -- I'd say that about half of the companies that we work with that have any Windows presence in the dataenter are moving those applications to *nix. You can see it too in the netcraft numbers.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  59. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    Cameron,

    I am starting to wonder about you. You should give win2k3 a try. There is a huge performance gap between win2k and win2k3. Beside the OS performance, IIS6 is an amazing piece of technical accomplishment.

    Secondly, vi is something to laugh at. At my last company, our environment was java/linux/jboss/db2/tomcat/apache. I was the only one using Eclipse. Most of the guys used vi or emacs. Problem would arise within the code base. It would take those guys all day to find out what the problem was. System.out.println all over the place. After being bitten to many times and having to debugg their code(which was generally a 10 min problem), I started pushing Eclipse on every soul I could find.


    Thirdly,

    You mentioned that some companies(the ones you work with) are moving away from NT on the datacenter side. This is purely political. This is not based on the technical relevance of NT vs *nix.

    -M
  60. Political reasons?[ Go to top ]

    Mackie,

    You said, "You mentioned that some companies(the ones you work with) are moving away from NT on the datacenter side. This is purely political. This is not based on the technical relevance of NT vs *nix."

    I have to say that that's not just a little off base, it's way out there. As a developer, manager, and now the operations manager for the Open Source Lab at OSU, I see and talk to a lot of people moving from NT to Unix/Linux, and I've yet to have ONE person say to me that the move was political. A key part of my job is to engage business, government, and education people in understanding the business side values and costs of Open Source in general and Linux in specific. They all cite technical AND business reaons.

    In fact, right before I saw your message I was speaking with the CTO of a successful startup in Boston (about 50 people now) that used to be strictly a strictly windows shop. I asked him why he wanted to move to Linux. His response was, "Easy! Money and time."

    Jason McKerr
    The Open Source Lab
    Oregon State University
    "Open Minds. Open Doors. Open Source."
  61. Political reasons[ Go to top ]

    "and I've yet to have ONE person say to me that the move was political"
    "They all cite technical AND business reaons."

    Yes, if he/she said so out loud, he/she would look stupid. The point is that the whole anti-MS culture, which is a political one, has sipped into the minds of CTOs and the likes. How do they know linux will save them time and money? Have they worked with the technology extensivley in the past. Have they seen those so called financialy savings? How did that CTO conlude that the issue was time and money?

    -M
  62. Political reasons[ Go to top ]

    That CTO did a series of test runs using Linux and Open Source in parts of his enterprise. So yes, he did a direct comparison of value for his organization.

    >>Yes, if he/she said so out loud, he/she would look stupid.

    That sounds patently ridiculous. Why or how would this person look bad? To whom would he look bad? The important people to him are his customers, his employees, and his investors. And none of these people care at all about the politics of his decision. They care about the economic *value* of his decision.

    More importantly, I think you give peoples' thoughts on this too wide a consideration, at least in business. Peopl like this CTO don't even care about the politics of Linux/Windows. He's got to do the right thing and maximize shareholder value. These people care about cost, productivity, growth. The politics of the world out there arguing over Open Source don't even cross this guy's radar.

    Jason McKerr
    The Open Source Lab
    Oregon State University
    "Open Minds. Open Doors. Open Source."
  63. Political reasons[ Go to top ]

    Is this a joke or what? Are you serious? "Test runs". Please, I am trying to be polite and not laugh. How are you going to stress load your system based on test run? The only way you can do so is having your system go live. Test runs are a poor simulation for gauging system performances. Especailly when you are basing your entire enterprise Architecture on it.

    -M
  64. Political reasons[ Go to top ]

    Mackie,

    I guess we mis-understood each other. I'm referring to *desktop* and productivity environments. And he actually had employees (sales peopl, who make up about 75% of his employees) using these machines for quite some time. Successfully I might add.

    Not sure he needs to stress the heck out of those, but if you say so I'll pass that along.

    As for servers, the Open Source Lab and Oregon State University (where the Open Source Lab is located) runs Mail, DNS, web servers, database servers, spam filters, and ftp servers all on Linux. I can say with absolute assurity that we did that for cost and technical reasons. As for stress, we're handling about a teraybyte/day in outbound network traffic, about 180mb/s in networking (constant), all the mail for about 20,000 people. We've handled a couple of slashdottings whithout failure since we are one of the main mirror sites for Mozilla.org. That seems pretty ok to me.

    And our costs are down considerably. But don't take my word for it. There are plenty of companies that have seen the same results.

    In fact, this success at OSU is what gave us the idea for opening the Open Source Lab here. Voila!

    Jason McKerr
    The Open Source Lab
    Oregon State University
    "Open Minds. Open Doors. Open Source."
  65. Give me a break[ Go to top ]

    "Yes, if he/she said so out loud, he/she would look stupid. The point is that the whole anti-MS culture, which is a political one, has sipped into the minds of CTOs and the likes. "

    I really like how when the guy doesn't hold up against your beliefs, you basically question his integrity and honesty. Good to know that you believe that anyone who doesn't publically support you is a dirty filthy liar. I'm sure you're winning hearts and minds everyday.

    Between you and Rolfie, you have got to be the best advertisement against using .NET I have ever seen. It's a good thing I CAN actually think for myself or after reading some of your statements I would cancel my aspirations to learn C# in the near future.
  66. Give me a break[ Go to top ]

    Jason,

    I have nothing against using XP or Win3K as development workstation and deploy on Linux. I can see at last 3 scenarios that that would be beneficial, As ISP, with hundreds of boxes to keep the cost down, as a remote co-located server where non-GUI actually is an advantage or in clusters when again the cost could be the deciding factor.

    But in the large mainstream segment of contract consulting - the departmental server and web-applications up to ca 5000 users, Win3k rules. Microsoft at the serverside is not affected at all in this area, actually the opposite.
    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/17/1058035114769.html
    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/12/1063268546923.html

    I am not at all opposed to Linux as a server, only some good-natured banter of the respective advantage of the one over the other. The real enemy is companies that want to turn back the development to times where everything cost millions and smug people in white overcoats (so called incompetent “computer-scientists”) wandered around and looked down upon guys with cheaper equipment.

    Just before the web-explosion almost 90 percent of all enterprise development was done by cheap Intel-based software. Now the people in white overcoats see the light again with products like Weblogic and Websphere take a large share of the market. But I am afraid the time is already running out for them. Contrary to common believes Open Source is no threat to MS but to companies like Sun, Oracle and IBM.

    Programming is one of the few areas in the world that still is a real handcraft. An area where the lone inventor or “two guys in a garage” still can make a buck. I am confident that it will remain so.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud

    Proxy Error
    The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server.
    The proxy server could not handle the request GET /.
    Reason: Could not connect to remote machine: Connection refused

    (phoo, again..)
  67. Give me a break[ Go to top ]

    Rolf,

    As usual, your post picks out only the statistics that meet your needs.
    Take a look at the last three months of 2003 on Netcraft. MS had two down months and one up month. One of the down months was really due to the parking sites, so that. So really they're about even on the month-to-month winners score.

    The telling stats though are the totals: I mean, Apache is 67.43% while IIS is 20.48%. I think one of the mose telling statements in the November release is, "Microsoft-IIS share is now in line with its long term pre-summer 2001 level of around 20%."

    Jason McKerr
    The Open Source Lab
    Oregon State University
    "Open Minds. Open Doors. Open Source."
  68. Give me a break[ Go to top ]

    Jason,

    I do not really care about what OS the big ISP and parking sites uses. As I said my concern is with the departmental servers and enterprise web-applications. But if you really mean what you say, "Open Minds. Open Doors. Open Source" you are my partner in the battle against Sun and Big Iron (and US Patent Office!).

    Welcome to the group!

    Take a look at,
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3422853.stm

    Bruce Perens
    "We're looking at a future where only the very largest companies will be able to implement software, and it will technically be illegal for other people to do so".

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  69. feeding a troll[ Go to top ]

    Jason,

    >
    > I have nothing against using XP or Win3K as development workstation and deploy on Linux. I can see at last 3 scenarios that that would be beneficial, As ISP, with hundreds of boxes to keep the cost down, as a remote co-located server where non-GUI actually is an advantage or in clusters when again the cost could be the deciding factor.

    What would be the advantage of using XP or Win3K as a development workstation, if your going to deploy on Linux? It would be much cheaper to use Linux as a development workstation in the first place.

    > I am not at all opposed to Linux as a server, only some good-natured banter of the respective advantage of the one over the other. The real enemy is companies that want to turn back the development to times where everything cost millions and smug people in white overcoats (so called incompetent “computer-scientists”) wandered around and looked down upon guys with cheaper equipment.
    >

    Oh Rolf, you know clearly that most of those multimillion projects have security, stability and reliability requirements for a system designed to run 24x7 on a multiplatform site. You want to run that on "cheaper equipment", and be developed by "cheap developers"? This sounds like an Open Source's endeavor to me, not a MS's.

    > Just before the web-explosion almost 90 percent of all enterprise development was done by cheap Intel-based software. Now the people in white overcoats see the light again with products like Weblogic and Websphere take a large share of the market. But I am afraid the time is already running out for them. Contrary to common believes Open Source is no threat to MS but to companies like Sun, Oracle and IBM.
    >

    Is that a joke? How can you state that Open Source is no threat to MS, after Bill Gates himself stated that Linux IS a threat plainly clear? Don't forget that there's JBOSS, you don't need a multimillion server to run reliable services in Linux. There's also Apache (just take a look at netcraft's graphs about number of servers on the net), the list can go on forever. If all that plus Java wasn't a threat to MS, we wouldn't have .Net today, be sure of that. (well, I am sure you know that, you just can't state it openly.) IBM, Sun and others will not suffer so much from Open Source threat, since they are jumping on that train themselves. They are going to benefit from OS. But MS doesn't have anywhere to run, they just can't drop their server OS prices to almost zero, like Linux, not mentioning security and virus problems we all know well. And MS can't jump in Linux train also, unless they throw the towel and start porting all their stuff to Linux, but I don't see that happening, and before you mention it, no, Mono is not going to save MS, people will still prefer to run .NET software on mono on Linux (being it cheaper), so MS servers would become irrelevant in case Mono becomes viable. It's a dead end street for MS. The only place MS will rule for a long time is the desktop, and even that is starting to be treatened by OS software (ever heard of StarOffice, Gnome, KDE?). OS is a huge force that just can't be neglected. The only reason why MS has had some success on the serverside is because of their desktop monopoly, and nothing else.

    > Programming is one of the few areas in the world that still is a real handcraft. An area where the lone inventor or “two guys in a garage” still can make a buck. I am confident that it will remain so.

    That's exactly how Open Source will be able to compete with any company that goes against it. Take a few hundred garage developers, and you get some real powerfull software for almost zero cost. Who can compete with that?

    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud
    >
    > FUD Error
    > The forum server received an invalid response from an upstream troll.
    > The forum server could not handle the request GET/.
    > Reason: Could not connect to remote machine: FUD refused
    >
    > (FUD, again..)

    Peace!
    Henrique Steckelberg
  70. Enough is enough!![ Go to top ]

    if theserverside.com does not take immediate action against this troll, I'll be forced to think it is because their deal with MS. I dont minda having to argue with people that offers sound arguments but not with trolls that just throw garbage every time they post anything on this forum....

    ROLF: SHUT UP AND GO TO YOUR F****NG .NET FORUM!!!
  71. windows?[ Go to top ]

    Mackie: You should give win2k3 a try.

    Sure, we support it, but it's only sold as "Windows Server 2003," and doesn't have an affordable "Windows Notebook" version yet ;-)

    Mackie: Secondly, vi is something to laugh at.

    Yes, that's what I said, coming from a Windows environment. When I use vi, I still have to get out my O'Reilly "vi Editor Pocket Reference" book. I don't even try to use emacs ... ;-)

    Mackie: You mentioned that some companies(the ones you work with) are moving away from NT on the datacenter side. This is purely political. This is not based on the technical relevance of NT vs *nix.

    They think it is based on technical merits. The problem is that Windows came into the datacenter when it wasn't ready for prime time, and now companies are "once bitten, twice shy."

    I like Windows just fine, but I'm not foolish enough to try to use a one-sized-fits-all approach of putting a desktop GUI OS into a 24x7 datacenter environment. I wouldn't use MacOS either. Or any Linux or Unix running a GUI for example. It's not religious, I just don't trust desktop OS's to do server work. Some day that may change, but that day is still a ways off. For now, I think it's safe to stick with simple, working, ugly, boring, headless server OSs.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Clustered JCache for Grid Computing!
  72. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    Come on Rolfi!!! Just tell the truth!! You LOVE Java. Otherwise, You should be only in TheServerSide.NET

    Do they not want you there?
  73. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    "the power of the human beings to deceive themselves is apparently without any bounds.. " - Rolfie

    So...much...irony....
  74. sic transit gloria mundi[ Go to top ]

    "the power of the human beings to deceive themselves is apparently without any bounds.. " - Rolfie

    Aaaahaahaaa!

    Rolf - I'm ashamed to be of the same nationality as you. The mixed garbage of quasiintellectual quotes and distorted subjective "facts" that you throw around makes you look really, really patetic.

    Oh, and you really should consider stop using latin in every single post of yours, it does certainly not, as I belive is your intention, make you look smarter. On the contrary, anybody who regularly quotes latin seems to compensate for something. Facts and brains perhaps?

    BTW, what about your promise to SHUT THE **** UP and never post here again? It's the only decent thing to do. You do have a .net-forum to harass nowadays, don't you?

    Go away friggin troll, out into the light. I hope you burst.