TheServerSide reports on EclipseCon 2004

Discussions

News: TheServerSide reports on EclipseCon 2004

  1. TheServerSide reports on EclipseCon 2004 (41 messages)

    Miko Matsumura with Adib Saikali were on hand at EclipseCon 2004, and have written up a report of their adventures. Their report discusses: the Rich Client, Who’s in charge?, Open Source Java, Sun, Eclipse Membership, Aspects, and more.

    Introduction

    "In the Disneyland Hotel, 634 members of the Eclipse community from 23 countries representing 220 companies have gathered in the form of the Eclipse Foundation’s first annual conference, EclipseCon. The organizers expected half that number and were pleasantly surprised to sell out. The ratio of Eclipse committers to plug in developers was good, and attendees were excited to sit down to lunch next to the likes of Erich Gamma and ask him about the core platform. Eclipse isn’t a Mickey Mouse IDE anymore, it’s growing up."

    Read the full EclipseCon 2004 Report

    Threaded Messages (41)

  2. At last something exiting is happening in the Java world. I agree that Eclipse looks and feels exactly as a window application. IBM has just done what MS was not allowed to do. Even ActiveX controls in the browser! (I have never understood that if you are going to work with an application for a year, why can't you once and for all accept a few seconds download?). First Netscape, then Sun, and then Mozilla.org - all declare war, only IBM is reasonable.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  3. There is a huge difference between what Microsoft have done and what IBM is doing. MS tried to lock users with their JVM which was Windows only. On the other hand, Eclipse runs on every 1.4+ JVM since SWT is just a library which is pretty portable bewtween OS. And it is open source, too.

    Anyway, even I am Eclipse fan I am not sure if SWT is that good for Java Desktop applications. There are more and more Swing applications that looks native (just check JGoodies) and IMO Swing is much more mature and stable than SWT. Recently I was on Sun's project Rave presentation where some people asked if it was built on Eclipse since it looked like any other Windows application.

    But it is good to hear that there are many Swing-SWT intergationg efforts these days. Another battle like KDE vs. Gnome would not help Java a lot!
  4. punish myself?[ Go to top ]

    Dejan:On the other hand, Eclipse runs on every 1.4+ JVM

    Why should I use Eclipse on Linux? You must read,

    "Flagellation and the Flagellants in all Countries, from the Earliest Period to the Present Time". By William H. Cooper
     
    Sorry, I am not interested in whipping myself, just perfectly happy to use Eclipse on windows, with C#/Mono and NAnt.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  5. punish myself?[ Go to top ]

    Dejan:On the other hand, Eclipse runs on every 1.4+ JVM

    >
    > Why should I use Eclipse on Linux? You must read,

    You can also use it with different JVMs on Windows. The point is that there is no real vendor lock in with Eclipse (SWT) like there was with Microsoft's attempt to bring Java on Widndows desktop (Visual J++).
  6. cana't see the difference[ Go to top ]

    Dejab: The point is that there is no real vendor lock in with Eclipse

    Nobody stopped anybody from implementing WFC for other platforms. IBM had SWT for Windows before OS did the Linux version.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  7. There is a difference![ Go to top ]

    As I could remember the problem with Microsoft was their incompatible JVM - not some non-portable library. And that is huge difference!
    Also, I guess that SWT for Linux and other OS was done mostly by IBM.
    Anyway, as I said I am not big fan of SWT either.

    Dejan
  8. Microsoft was only adding "adding rich platform support" to what remained a cross- platform implementation. If you opted not to use WFC, the implementation was compatible.

    As to the accusation that Microsoft's faster JVM "lured" Java developers into using Microsoft's JVM, I only can laugh. As if you can "lure" developers to anything :).

    That is the main charge against Microsoft "They deceived Java developers about the Windows-specific nature of the tools", and for this accusation Microsoft was branded a "criminal company". Great god.

    Suns lawsuit was one the most foul and cowardly acts I ever seen. Also they destroyed the work of 100 000 of thousands of developers and companies that had built products upon WFC, including my company. I am sure they would sue IBM too, if they thought they could get away with it.

    So bye bye Sun, I will dance upon your grave!

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  9. <trolf>Microsoft was only adding "adding rich platform support" to what remained a cross- platform implementation. If you opted not to use WFC, the implementation was compatible</trolf>

    As a former MS consultant, I can properly say that the MS implementation of Java was not compatible. Even the VM was not 100% java compliant and there were propietary extension used everywhere.

    <trolf>Suns lawsuit was one the most foul and cowardly acts I ever seen. Also they destroyed the work of 100 000 of thousands of developers and companies that had built products upon WFC, including my company. I am sure they would sue IBM too, if they thought they could get away with it.
    </trolf>

    And how about the other side of the table?? 1 000 0000 of developers had to endure the fact of working with inferior technology (aka, VB 5??) and no one is screaming...
  10. Roberto,

    It is not I that do not belong here but you. You on the other hand belong to the mob. By mob I mean "people without manners or reason from all levels of the society" (Henry Fielding).

    It is Java/UNIX/Sun zealots like you that seems to enjoy casting their technical preferences in quasi-religious terms that encourage hyperbole, paranoia and hatred. The rhetoric and lies about Microsoft and Bill Gates is not subject to any common standards of decency.

    And that is why it will make it such a pleasure for me when the Sun disappears from the earth!

    There are 336434 well-behaved members here in TSS that is willing to listen to reason, logic and common sense.

    + one dishonest, one without humor and one from the mob. Try to find out who the other two are :)

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  11. Roberto,

    >
    > It is not I that do not belong here but you. You on the other hand belong to the mob. By mob I mean "people without manners or reason from all levels of the society" (Henry Fielding).
    >

    yea and who says he wants to "dance on SUNs grave" ?? and who tries to re-write history to fit his distorted world view?? and then he cites Henry Fielding to tell others they are "mob". Give me a break.

    > The rhetoric and lies about Microsoft and Bill Gates is not subject to any common standards of decency.
    >

    Bill Gates is a great man, i appreciate his charity work (funding for research in viral diseases, etc.) very much. Most people appreciate his achievments. So, i don't think he needs (or deserves!) to be defended by you. And pointing out a company's misbehaviours SHOULD be allowed, i think.

    > And that is why it will make it such a pleasure for me when the Sun disappears from the earth!
    >

    don't you think some medical treatment for your mental illness would be in order now? Okay, obviously you tried to get a job at Sun and they turned you down. Get over it, man!

    > There are 336434 well-behaved members here in TSS that is willing to listen to reason, logic and common sense.
    >

    yes, but your postings don't contain any reason or logic. Just some "common sense" from a wannabe who probably never had any success in the Java business world and now desperately sucks in Dot NET advertizing, hoping for the miracle that turns bad software engineers into good ones.

    bottom line: you are an ugly troll. disgusting and redundant. Yes, your life is a pain and everything, but please talk to your therapist, not to this site.

    i mean, i simply wanted to read about EclipseCon and instead i had to read your crappy OFF TOPIC postings (probably because people had not enough time to mark your NOISY yet, what you really are)

    Joe
  12. why don't people mark me as noisy?[ Go to top ]

    Joachim,
    Welcome to the same club as mr Roberto from Peru..

    IBM has done with Eclipse exactly the same that MS was not allowed to do and I wonder why? The quality and professionalism of the application show that SWT (or WFC) was the right way to go. You should be happy that at least now it is possible to make a decent win application with Java!

    If this discussion is of topic, why do not people mark me of as noisy?

    My question remains.
    Why was IBM allowed but not Microsoft?

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  13. why don't people mark me as noisy?[ Go to top ]

    Hi Rolf,

    > Why was IBM allowed but not Microsoft?

    Have a look at this link:

    http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-08-1998/jw-08-pitfalls-update.html

    The article discusses the fact that MS introduced new keywords into Java (multicast and delegate) amongst other things, which would break the 'write once run anywhere' philosophy that Sun was promoting. IBM on the other hand didn't do anything to the Java language, but provided Java libraries that were platform dependant (which is fine, as the native keyword was provided by Sun).

    Hope that answers your question.

    cheers,
    CP
  14. the bare facts[ Go to top ]

    Hi Lim,

    Thanks for the link! It is a relief to talk to a person that doesn't throw abuse around.

    New keywords into Java. Let's take the @dll.import directive for example.

    Should not MS be allowed to add a high-performance method of calling native windows Dll's?
    Should not MS be allowed to add methods to call COM components?

    Sun's stance was that Java developers were "lured" into using MS JVM. Java developers was not though of being capable enough to understand that if they used windows DLL's or COM components their program would not be portable! :)

    MS stance was:
     
    "Microsoft's Java strategy calls for it to deliver both the power for real, cross-platform applications and the choice to create great Windows-based applications using Java"

    You choose yourself if you should go for compatibility. You were not in any way "forced" to use anything MS specific.

    And to be called "criminal" because of this!

    "Sir, you are giving a reason for it, but that will not make it right."
    —Samuel Johnson

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  15. the bare facts[ Go to top ]

    I am not sure why Bill Gates Pet Rolf is screaming here
    Dude go back to your C# I thought it was better or
    are grapes sour to you.
  16. the bare facts[ Go to top ]

    Rolf, it's simple. Microsoft created something that was Not Java, and they proclaimed "This is Java". Sun, as the owner of the Java trademark, rightfully sued them.

    If I created something that was Not Windows and sold it as "Windows" then Microsoft could rightfully sue me.

    IBM has at no point attempted to introduce new keywords to the Java language, it has not removed RMI from its class libraries, it has not attempted to pretend that SWT is anything other than a library. If I use SWT it doesn't break all my other code. However if I had used Microsoft "Java" it would have done just that.
  17. the bare facts[ Go to top ]

    Microsoft created something that was Not Java, and they proclaimed "This is Java". Sun, as the owner of the Java trademark, rightfully sued them.

    Microsoft did more than claim it to be Java. Microsoft claimed it was "the official Java for Windows", even though Sun had its own Java for Windows and never authorized Microsoft to make such a claim. When Sun challenged Microsoft on this in court, Microsoft dismissed its own claim as "mere puffery", as if false advertising were customary. IBM has never mistreated Sun like that. Microsoft is a lying, cheating bully that would have extinguished Java like Netscape if it could get away with it. Rolf acts like Microsoft's stooge. Anyway, SWT is stupid.
  18. Brian: SWT is stupid[ Go to top ]

    And Eclipse, what is your evaluation of Eclipse? IBM and Java? EclipseCon?
  19. Brian: SWT is stupid[ Go to top ]

    And Eclipse, what is your evaluation of Eclipse? IBM and Java? EclipseCon?


    Rolf, poor Rolf. Havent' you got yourself a life yet? Go away, it will be better for you own reputation. Imagine some of your customers run into this thread and see the kind of FUD you spread deriberally on the net, acting like a troll and all.

    Worse still, they could find out about this: http://www.theserverside.net/news/thread.aspx?thread_id=23741#109825

    "So what is the moral? Industrial mass production can never be the same quality as careful handcraft. The time you save in the beginning you pay for later. Small, lean and faster is always better than big, fat and slow. It can suffice for quick and dirty contract jobs - the clients are used to be cheated anyway - never for a product." - Rolf Trollerud

    Anyway, it's a pity to see what some MS developers do to defend their technology of choice.

    Regards,
    Zenrique
  20. yawn[ Go to top ]

    Henrique: poor Rolf. Havent' you got yourself a life yet?

    poor Henrique. Havent' you got yourself a little humor yet?
  21. yawn[ Go to top ]

    Henrique: poor Rolf. Havent' you got yourself a life yet?

    >
    > poor Henrique. Havent' you got yourself a little humor yet?

    Actually, I really think you are very funny indeed... Always changing the subject the moment your arguments are refuted and all, posting off topic articles, and defending that company which opened the doors to viruses, dll hell, etc.

    So funny!
  22. the bare facts[ Go to top ]

    New keywords into Java. Let's take the @dll.import directive for example.

    >
    > Should not MS be allowed to add a high-performance method of calling native windows Dll's?
    > Should not MS be allowed to add methods to call COM components?

    Adding new, non-portable extensions to Java would make it just another programming language and it would never become popular as it is now. It would cause the same situatation like with C++ where every copmapany was adding its own extensions. Sun had different plans for Java and I perfectly agree with them. And if Microsoft called Java something that wasn't Java it was perfectly legal for Sun to sue them. Every company has rights to defend its brand - Microsoft did it many times (remember Windows Commander or Lindows).

    Rolf, I really cannot see why are you copmlaining. In fact, I think this situation is better for everyone. You have new programming language which is "almost Java" but optimized for Windows. Microsoft has freedom to do whatever they like with their language (and to introduce non-compatible extensions with every version like they always did). And Java has competition which will make it better - just look at all the new and good stuff in Tiger.


    Regards,
    Dejan
  23. the bare facts[ Go to top ]

    Dejan: I really cannot see why are you complaining

    I am not complaining- Microsoft's position is good. I am just saying that Suns action was pretty stupid. If they had not done it, they still would have been an important company.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  24. the bare facts[ Go to top ]

    I am not complaining- Microsoft's position is good. I am just saying that Suns action was pretty stupid. If they had not done it, they still would have been an important company.

    >

    Why do you think so? One of graetest stenghts of Java was WORA principle. Without that it, would be hard to justify using Java as programming language. I mean, there were many other alternatives and Java would not be much different from them except it was pretty slow. Microsoft made it as just another programming language in their Visaul Studio - not even close to what Sun wanted to do with Java.
    And even if J++ did become successfull - it would be success of Microsoft, not Sun. Sun's position would be even worse than today. Sun didn't have much choice. It would be hard to imagine that non-portable Java would become that much accepted between companies and programmers like it is now. And to be honest, Sun does not have much choice now, either. They cannot control Java's growth anymore and I really don't see what they could do to make their position better.

    Dejan
  25. Dejan: Why do you think so?

    Contrary to common beliefs, Sun have quite a nice income from Java. Do you know that they are trying to get 50 million dollar yearly from Nokia alone? Microsoft would have contributed quite a lot- in fact Sun Sued their best customer! If Sun though that MS was blurring the borders between MS specific and standard Java they could just have negotiated with MS, MS had already made several changes to satisfy Sun when the lawsuit came. After all Sun will never get any income from C#!

    IMO, the best thing that have happened last year was the appearance of Spring and Eclipse. I can already see EclipseCon become a bigger and more important event than JavaOne. And Spring- it is fantastic. I am going to spend all the weekend studying it in detail. It is all I ever advocated a component that works with all frameworks, servers and other components and can also be a part inside another part! It begs to be ported to C#.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  26. IMO, the best thing that have happened last year was the appearance of Spring

    > and Eclipse. I can already see EclipseCon become a bigger and more important
    > event than JavaOne. And Spring- it is fantastic. I am going to spend all the
    > weekend studying it in detail. It is all I ever advocated a component that works
    > with all frameworks, servers and other components and can also be a part inside
    > another part! It begs to be ported to C#.

      I totally agree with Rolf. The golden days of the Sun cult (10000 % pure and certified Sun APIs only) and the Java Cartel Process (JCP) are over. Better alternatives such as Apache, Eclipse, Spring and so on have taken over and run the show.

      Viva the Java Republic.

      - Gerald

    PS: For more info about the Viva initiative check out the Viva! Call To Action online @ http://viva.sourceforge.net/action.html
  27. Sorry but I don't see Microsoft as company a who plays by rules not set by them. Simply, they are big and strong enough to set their own rules. So why would anyone believe they would be differnt with Java? They are protecting their position with Windows. Java's growth is threat to them since it does not lock users in Windows. I really think they were trying to make Java Windows specific and if Sun didn't stopped them they would do it sooner or later. Java without WORA would not be Java as we know it today. And that would mean less income for Sun. So if Sun did negotiated with Microsoft, that would only had a sense if Microsoft would gave up of all their non-standard extensions. But then it would not be negotiation and I don't believe Microsoft would accept that.

    I really don't know how many $ Sun is getting from Java but given their current situation I guess it is not enough. OK, I know that it is not their primary business, but when you think about how Java is popular today one could think they should not be in financial problems.

    >>IMO, the best thing that have happened last year was the appearance of Spring and Eclipse.

    Nothinig interesting happened in MS world?! :)
    So that is the reason why you are still at Java forum!

    Dejan
  28. the correct way[ Go to top ]

    Dejan: So if Sun did negotiated with Microsoft, that would only had a sense if Microsoft would gave up of all their non-standard extensions.

    That is ridiculous, MS or anyone have all the right in the world to make non-standard extensions. The issue was if developers were "lured" by it by not having sufficient clear borders. Eclipse is build upon SWT which is non-standard extensions.

    Dejan: I really don't know how many $ Sun is getting from Java but given their current situation I guess it is not enough

    They should be allowed to make any money of Java because Java is a community effort..

    Dejan: So that is the reason why you are still at Java forum!

    lies + hyperbole + "über-computer scientist" attitude is a lot of fun to stick pins into. If only Sun could make one decent software product! :)

    I will spell it out to you:

    If you make something that is going to work across a number of different platforms obviously it is going to be slow (- the slowest camel in the caravan etc). On the other hand if you do everything to optimize for one OS you loose the compatibility.

    But there is a third way! "To optimize as much as possible for "the most used" OS without loosing the compatibility. And that must be the correct way to go and is the way IBM have chosen and which Sun should have done if they cared 2 cent about the computer world.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  29. Here we go again....[ Go to top ]

    OK. I know you do understood this and I am not sure why you want me to repeat myself! But, one more time:
    1. Microsoft made nonstandard extensions on JVM level and claimed that it was Java even it wasn't Java! This was illegal.
    2. IBM made new library that is OS dependent which is perfectly legal. It is called SWT and it IS SWT. Nobady is fooled by that, we all know what is SWT and what are its limitations but this does not violate any low AFAIK. So, the issue with Sun is only moral not legal. End of the story.

    About correct way, I agree with you. But I also guess you know that Microsoft didn't choose that way. In fact, they didn't bothered other OSs at all.

    I guess there is no point to discuss on this subject anymore. Everything is already said, just read previous posts!

    Dejan
  30. Here we go again....[ Go to top ]

    I guess there is no point to discuss on this subject anymore

    Agreed
  31. Sabotage[ Go to top ]

    http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=94197&cid=8082050
  32. Shouldn't you use your time to write EJB deployment-descriptors or auto generate 13 files for every table or something? :)
  33. Shouldn't you use your time to write EJB deployment-descriptors or auto generate 13 files for every table or something? :)


    As the name implies, auto-generated files are generated automatically, so it takes no time for someone to create them. It is so obvious that I am really beggining to think you are somewhat limited intelectually, Rolf. Your customers will definately not like to know that. ;)
  34. Dejan: Why do you think so?

    >
    > Contrary to common beliefs, Sun have quite a nice income from Java. Do you know that they are trying to get 50 million dollar yearly from Nokia alone? Microsoft would have contributed quite a lot- in fact Sun Sued their best customer! If Sun though that MS was blurring the borders between MS specific and standard Java they could just have negotiated with MS, MS had already made several changes to satisfy Sun when the lawsuit came. After all Sun will never get any income from C#!

    MS would LOVE to have Sun on a table to negotiate! Being such a monopoly, they would have Sun on their hands in no time. Actually, it was a safe move to go to the court. Otherwise MS and its $50Billion wallet would have too much power on a negotiation, but I think even someone like you can realise that...


    >
    > IMO, the best thing that have happened last year was the appearance of Spring and Eclipse. I can already see EclipseCon become a bigger and more important event than JavaOne. And Spring- it is fantastic. I am going to spend all the weekend studying it in detail. It is all I ever advocated a component that works with all frameworks, servers and other components and can also be a part inside another part! It begs to be ported to C#.

    Why have the work, if it is done and working already in a well proven plataform? ;)

    >
    > Regards
    > Rolf Tollerud
  35. punish myself?[ Go to top ]

    <trolf>You must read, </trolf>

    You should read your own posting and honour your word.
  36. At last something exiting is happening in the Java world. I agree that Eclipse looks and feels exactly as a window application.

    Whatever Rolf praises is usually bad for Java's future. Now he's praising Eclipse.
  37. is that bad for Javas future?[ Go to top ]

    Now that IBM have finished what Microsoft started - maybe I expect more Rich-Clients and loosely coupled Service oriented architecture and less products that autogenerate 13 files for every table in the database (deployment-descriptors not counted) and expert craftsmanship more valued.

    Regards
    Rolf Tollerud
  38. is that bad for Javas future?[ Go to top ]

    <trolf>...and expert craftsmanship more valued</trolf>

    Are you a craftman by any chance?
  39. <TROLF>At last something exiting is happening in the Java world</TROLF> YEAHHHHH!!!! Are you going away??? Moving in to another planet??? Wow... what a good news!!!
  40. I've just read the EclipseCon 2004 report. How come you have missed out on IBM's very own XUL (XML UI Language) dialect unveiled for the Eclipse Powered Lotus Notes Client?

    Can anyone post more details. Searching Google for RCPML (Rich Client Platform Markup Language) turns up nothing not even my XUL News Wire story about RCPML.

    - Gerald

    PS: If you're new to XUL and wonder what it's all about, you might wonna check out the XUL Alliance site online @ http://xul.sourceforge.net
  41. IBM's XUL dialect a.k.a RCPML?[ Go to top ]

    I 'm not sure but think (and hope :->) it will be an evolution of OTI P3ML that I used for developing UI of our automotive solutions.
    P3ML techonology is part of IBM WebSphere Studio Device Developer.

    Ciao, Diego
  42. I've just read the EclipseCon 2004 report. How come you have missed out on IBM's very own XUL (XML UI Language) dialect unveiled for the Eclipse Powered Lotus Notes Client?


    That's not quite what they said. I didn't get the impression Lotus's "RCPML" was anything like XUL. Unfortunately they didn't show us any source but I asked the presenter about it later and it sounded like it was at a much higher (component + data source) level.

    Also it wasn't exactly a Lotus Notes client. I don't use Notes but the presenter said Regular Notes lives on; this is a new way of projecting UIs with a portlet based architecture.

    Regardless, the Lotus Workspace Client presentation was one of the most interesting ones at the show. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it. Cool stuff.