I know that "Open Source Java" is overkill. I am reluctant to post something else on the topic here, however James Strachan has actually gone into detail on what he wants out of an "Open Source Java". What is the problem now? What should Sun really open source? What are the various scenarios? James has an interesting solution.

My Proposed Solution

So what should Sun do to help both of these massive communities of developers? Firstly its clearly their fault as its their licensing agreements which are the problem here. So here's what Sun can do to both protect the Java platform from fragmentation and to grow the Java platform into these 2 large areas of developers while still keeping a steely grip on the Java platform and brand...

Sun setup an open source project called JRT. Its not Java, its not a Java platform - its something else, its JRT. Its a bunch of Java source code for some java.* and javax.* APIs and implementation classes which are used to implement part of the JDK / JRE - basically the source code which when compiled to bytecode makes the rt.jar which goes into the JVM. Parts of this are already open sourced (XML parsers, DOM, SAX etc). So its already been done in part. We're just making a bigger chunk of this code open source.

Note its not the JVM though - there's lots of C code for implementing that and there's all that really cool hotspot stuff too - I'm not proposing any of this is open sourced (yet :) - though that could be kinda cool, the Mono guys could really help out & reuse that stuff).

So JRT is just an open sourced Java project - under a very liberal licence, say Apache 2.0 licenced so folks can use it inside GPL & BSD open sourxe projects or inside commerical products if need be. Note that the JRT project also includes a few C header files for when JRT's Java code has to call out to native C functions that any VM must implement.

Now Sun is sole committer on JRT; they decide what goes into JRT when. However now that a huge bulk of the code for the JVM is out there now we all benefit

Read the entire proposal at: Why Sun should open source Java and how - a new proposal (not open source Java but JRT)

The idea of opening just rt.jar is modest and would be a good step. The downside of having to use .NET is working for someone who has no clue about server applications and zero understanding different kinds of threading. The end result is server applications that have to manually manage threads, which results in applications that are difficult to scale. Sun could also open up rt.jar and the VM. Keep everything else in their control. This way it will be much easier to replace the MS stack with OSS stack Tomcat + Hibernate + JBoss + ActiveMQ. In the end, Sun wins and all developers win. Having to re-invent things in .NET, when OSS provides the equivalent application with greater flexibility, better design and maturity is such a drag.

This is just brilliant. This solution seems so right and simple that I wonder how it wasn't proposed before (that I know).
This way Sun keeps java togheter because this is just the library, not the language. There are some details to be taken care because the library is still very important but this the best proposal yet.

I agree 100%.

Brian Chan
Chief Software Architect
Liferay, LLC "professional open source solutions"

There already is such a project:
http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/

James wouldn't like though?
It doesn't allow him to fork, close then distribute.
http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/license.html

There already is such a project:http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/James wouldn't like though? It doesn't allow him to fork, close then distribute.http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath/license.html

And when exactly has James ever done that???? -
ublbtfc.

I think James mentions GNU Classpath :)

The problem isn't that you can't rewrite everything, but you shouldn't have too! GNU Classpath is always going to be playing catch up with new versions etc.

We want to get away from that.

Dion

I think James mentions GNU Classpath :)

Apologies, I'll read the article next time, rather than just the summary. :-)

The problem isn't that you can't rewrite everything, but you shouldn't have too! GNU Classpath is always going to be playing catch up with new versions etc.We want to get away from that.Dion

The java runtime specs are under JCP control.
Sun has to play catchup as well.
With the new JCP as an OS project, you can even ask Sun
for funding to pass the TCK.

It is no good the OS community claiming some god given right
to somebody else's work, and then throwing your toys out of the
pram when they don't give you it.

As with any OS project, the rule is; You want it, you do it!

The goal is to have a good, free implementation. The best runtime class library, as free software anyone can use, modify and redistribute.

Replacing GNU Classpath with Sun's code would not necessarily bring us a step forward towards that goal, unless Sun's code is really well written. It would be pointless to spend 5 years fixing bugs in Sun's Swing, if a community of free software developers can write a better implementation from scratch in less time, for example. That's why mozilla developers largely threw away the old Netscape code base: it was a nice idea, but the implementation was not good enough for their needs. The history proved them right.

In the long run, the JDK is as irrelevant as an industry standard as AT&T Unix is now. Ten years ago, there were many (closed source) implementations of Unix-ish OSes. GNU/Linux is gradually replacing them, without having or needing all of their features. Quality of implementation and freedom are the two things that really count, in the long run.

In any case, I don't see everyone switching to the Java 5.0 language right now, so I think GNU Classpath will be able to catch up in one or two years for most developers' needs. That's one part of the story. The other part is that gcj 3.5.0 will have a binary comaptibility abi for native java code, so that your JARs can be automatically installed as shared object libraries on GNU/Linux, making them better citizens of the system. And you may see some very nice runtime environments that combine the strengths of gcj, kaffe, mono and other free runtimes into very interesting, and performant packages. You ain't seen nothing yet :)

... unless Sun's code is really well written.

Isn't this a little bit arrogant ? and self_flattering (forget my grammar) ?

... if a community of free software developers can write a better implementation from scratch in less time, for example.

you know that things are completely different in reality.

Quality of implementation and freedom are the two things that really count, in the long run.

Look. How about being sure one thing runs on another platform when it is told that it does ? How about *me* doing *nothing* to ensure that ? Yes I am talking about guaranteed easy to use. I don't want to go through the 'make' hell or whatever you have to pass when working in the c c++ world whan wanting to deploy on 3 different os-es.

Yeeees I am a lazy person, I like what Java does in this space for me. I don't care what you think, I don't care that you feel good being a hacker but my first concern is now *meeting my customer's needs* not hacking through an open source java impl to make it work on every targeted platform. Do not forget that Java was so successful because it is easy and convenient in the first place and takes care of those overflows and cleaning after me. And it was so successful that you hackers are moving in the same direction and it could take hacking to another level. How about being actually productive above being a hacker. Sounds good ?

In any case, I don't see everyone switching to the Java 5.0 language right now, so I think GNU Classpath will be able to catch up in one or two years for most developers' needs.

How about ALL developer's needs ? I __can_see_it_happening__ with James's ideea. Of course if there are stil guys in your camp that would think that Sun's implementations worth shit and get rid off their pride to write those by themselves and just take some working pieces of code and use them.

That's one part of the story. The other part is that gcj 3.5.0 will have a binary comaptibility abi for native java code, so that your JARs can be automatically installed as shared object libraries on GNU/Linux, making them better citizens of the system. And you may see some very nice runtime environments that combine the strengths of gcj, kaffe, mono and other free runtimes into very interesting, and performant packages. You ain't seen nothing yet :)

Awesome indeed

As for James's ideea I think it is awesome and SO simple to implement. I agree that Sun should take a step in this direction. They will never open source Java in the way the *mustache* wants it so a compromise seems the best move.

Should take Sun this into account ? Yes they should because I am sure James is speaking not just for himself but for a significant part of the Jakarta guys even he didn't get their written approval first. If it's not enough to determine Sun to look into it and make it happen than some from Jakarta's chair should take ObjectWeb and any other OS java initiative by hand and make an open letter or something. At least we would get an answer to that.

... unless Sun's code is really well written.

Isn't this a little bit arrogant ? and self_flattering (forget my grammar) ?

Well, I've seen Kaffe's old class library, and I've seen GNU Classpath, and I've decided to move Kaffe gradually over to use GNU Classpath, because it is really nicely written, and more maintainable. I have no idea how well written Sun's class library is, but I know from experience maintaining Kaffe's runtime class library implementation now that class libraries may be not very maintainable, even though they work, essentially.

GNU Classpath hackers have a rather high standard, and they will flat out reject patches that do not meet it. I know, I've had several patches rejected and had to fix them till they passed the public mark of approval. I have no knowledge of Sun's practices in that area. Given that they are dragging a code base with them since Java 1.0, I'd assume that some areas have accumulated some cruft, that GNU Classpath does not have, as we have the liberty to write the implementations from scratch and to write them nicely.

... if a community of free software developers can write a better implementation from scratch in less time, for example.

you know that things are completely different in reality.

I've seen some very capable people start from scratch and implement a major deal of Swing over SWT in less than a year. Classpath Swing was almost non-existant a year ago, now large chunks are done and work. It takes really good, motivated developers to change things. Fortunately, there is no shortage of really good, motivated developers in reality.

Quality of implementation and freedom are the two things that really count, in the long run.

Look. How about being sure one thing runs on another platform when it is told that it does ? How about *me* doing *nothing* to ensure that ?

You wouldn't believe that Sun's runtime code has some magic property that makes it portable accross platforms without testing , right? :)

There is a marketing fantasy that writing programs in Java automatically makes them portable. That is not true, even among Sun-derived implementations. You still have to know what the grey areas of the language and API specifications are. They are different from C, and C++, sure, but they are still there. Java memory model, floating point semantics, blowing up the stack through serialization, different side-effects of file handling, etc.

Cross-platform comes with the price of writing cross-platform code. Java is nicer than C or C++ in that respect, by coming with larger a class library that largely behaves the same on many platforms. It's still not very hard to shoot yourself in the foot, though, depending on the task.

Yes I am talking about guaranteed easy to use. I don't want to go through the 'make' hell or whatever you have to pass when working in the c c++ world whan wanting to deploy on 3 different os-es. Yeeees I am a lazy person, I like what Java does in this space for me. I don't care what you think, I don't care that you feel good being a hacker but my first concern is now *meeting my customer's needs* not hacking through an open source java impl to make it work on every targeted platform.

That's easy. If proprietary VMs are good enough for your tasks, please keep using them. If they are not, feel free to look around for alternatives. If you need guarantees, and 'professional open source'-like support using the alternatives, feel free to hire some professionals. If you don't need that, even better.

Kaffe is not Java(TM). Neither is GNU Classpath. Free runtimes are not a seamless, drop in replacement for the JDK. Whoever wants to sell you seamless, drop in replacements for other people's software is selling you snake oil. Not even Sun's JDK updates are seamless, if you read their nice compatibility documentation. So if you are a lazy person, you stay with what you have, till the costs of staying lazy outweigh the gains made by switching. Remember, you don't have to use free runtimes, you can use them if it helps you do what you need to get done.

In any case, I don't see everyone switching to the Java 5.0 language right now, so I think GNU Classpath will be able to catch up in one or two years for most developers' needs.

How about ALL developer's needs ? I __can_see_it_happening__ with James's ideea. Of course if there are stil guys in your camp that would think that Sun's implementations worth shit and get rid off their pride to write those by themselves and just take some working pieces of code and use them.

'Working' does not imply maintainable. As I said before, I've seen some working AWT implementations in Kaffe, that were essentially unmaintainable wihout some major refactoring. I don't know if Sun's imlementation is good or not, I can't judge without access to the source. But knowing what I know from switching Kaffe to use GNU Classpath from our own class library, I can say that GNU Classpath is a very nicely written class library, but that in any merge, you'll find code that's been written better in one implementation than in the other. Quite often, you'll find that both implementations expose problems in each other. That's the reason why we are switching gradually to GNU Classpath, it allows us to fix things that weren't noticed before, because the code was 'working'. By taking 'working' code and putting it into an 'alien' environment, we are able to detect new problems, and fix them. That process is making GNU Classpath stronger.

See, I'm not aware of anyone being able to legally do that with Sun's code. So I'd expect it to be a mess, from my experience with some OpenOffice Java libraries I've seen. The mess comes from the code not being under public scrutiny, so there is no need to make it work in alien environments, there is noone rejecting dumb patches, etc.

To put it simply, 'working' code is not good enough for GNU Classpath. It needs to be 'working and well-written', because we'll be stuck maintaining that code for years. And we'll be taking that code to where no Java code has been before.

Please also note that I'm not saying that all of GNU Classpath's code is superbly well-written. For example, Jikes 1.21 spews out a ton of warnings compiling the class libraries. But those areas where GNU Classpath is sub-par, we can fix, because they are out there in the open, and other developers can help us make it better. That tender, love and care GNU Classpath receives from various participants is a crucial long-term advantage it has over Sun's class library: it has a community of people wanting to make it better. And that's what matters: the long term.

Sun is more than welcome to join in the fun, and put their code on the table, of course. It would be nice if they decided to contribute their libraries to GNU Classpath, sure. Hey, I'd be glad to merge in some GPL-compatible ORB into Kaffe, and if Sun would want to make that easier by contributing theirs, sure.

But that is not going to happen, no matter how many open letters get written by anyone. Sun has been repeatedly asked, at least since 1996[1], to open up their code, or to at least clear up the legal ambiguities surrounding Java. They have refused to listen. Sun knows very, very well what 'open source' means. And they do not want it for their Java(TM) implementation. Period.

So if you want an open source runtime, forget about begging Sun to put one in your lap. That's a waste of time. Don't write open letters. Do what you do best: code.

As a side note: you can never write non-trivial software that makes everyone happy. There is always some area where you need to make decisions, and decisions mean that you pick between alternatives, leaving people who would have preferred the other alternative to do their own thing. That's life. Sun's class libraries are not making everyone happy, either, judging by the bug database. That's normal. The difference is that with free software you can actively do something about it, while with non-free software you are at the mercy of your vendor.

They will never open source Java in the way the *mustache* wants it so a compromise seems the best move.

The fundamental issue is freedom. If that's the case, it would be pointless to make compromises on freedom. It's simple: Sun does not want to give you the freedoms of free software with their implementation. There is nothing in it for them if they free it up. Free software developers, on the other hand, have no incentive to give up their freedoms in order to make Sun happy.

If it's not enough to determine Sun to look into it and make it happen than some from Jakarta's chair should take ObjectWeb and any other OS java initiative by hand and make an open letter or something. At least we would get an answer to that.

They've looked into it. Actually, his proposal is not radically different from what ESR or IBM proposed. Sun rejected that. Various people have written open letter with zero effect. Open letters are a waste of time. They have not worked in the past, there is no reason why they should work now.

As long as Sun's has no competition in the 'cross-platform' field, that's not going to change. Fortunately, there is Mono, Python, DotGNU and Perl6 to give Sun some things to think about what went wrong, say, 5 years from now. I'd expect Sun to open source their legacy Java(TM) technology around 2010, not earlier. But then of course, Java(TM) will not matter much to anyone in 2010. It will be no different than the opening up of old Unix code by Caldera or of some old compilers by Watcom.

If you want a different future for your code, like I do, you know where to look.

cheers,
dalibor topic

[1] http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-09-1996/jw-09-javaqa.html

I know what you mean. Stil ...

too many versions, too many issues of portability will arise. To be frank Linux hasnt thrown out Windows completely because of one of theses reasons of too many versions and no standard place / vendor to go to.
   I dont want java to be like that and then keep on solving issues when u share libraries with other vendors. Even if we want to keep a control on the complied class format - once u make it open source - nothing remains in control so its a over kill and there has to be one place - be it SUN to keep the standard version of java.
   Open source has limitations and this is one of them - no one place to go for standard version.
   I know people will disagree - well thats why we r posting our views :).

Open source has limitations and this is one of them - no one place to go for standard version.

It is not Open source limitations, versioning is JAVA limitation.

Thanks for asking, but I don't need Sun's code, personally. It would be nice, if Sun decided to contribute to GNU Classpath, or to release their code under a GPL compatible license, or came up with whatever collaboration model that pleases them. But it's not necessary for Kaffe. If they do it, cool, if they don't, well, it's their code in the first place, they can license it as they wish.

What would be way more helpful than asking Sun to do GNU Classpath a favor, would be if open source developers writing Java code try to use GNU Classpath based runtimes[1] ocasionally for testing, and help us fix our bugs, and hey, if you are not tainted, maybe contribute a patch or two. We're a friendly bunch. If you care. If you don't, no problem. You may care next year, or never. I appreciate your work on writing free software nevertheless. I've seen a lot of nice Java code out there. [2]

It's like with Linux. I don't recall people sucessfully begging Sun to release SunOS/Solaris under reasonable licensing terms back in the 90-somethings[3]. Sun still hasn't decided what they want to do with Solaris source code, 13 years after Linux was first released. I believe that begging Sun to give away their 'crown jewels' is just a waste of time. If you want to be free, you've got to make the effort to liberate yourself. Or you can wait till someone does the hard work and jump on the bandwagon then :)

The only huge part missing is CORBA, we've got everything else developing rapidly. I'm working on making JacORB build with Kaffe, and that would be the end of that problem. We may have to rewrite the org.omg classes, as the OMG license is a rather unpleasant one. But that's not a big issue. Swing is happily coming along in Classpath, so is AWT, and most of the other stuff like crypto, or sound is covered by third party projects like GNU Crypto & Tritonus. Once all the blocks are in place, we'll have the first 90% covered: API availability. the other 90% will be API quality & compatibility, and Classpath could need a few more hands for that ;)

See http://www.kaffe.org/~stuart/japi/htmlout/h-jdk14-classpath.html for up to date API coverage in GNU Classpath. Come to #classpath on irc.freenode.org if you want to know more. Read Planet Classpath on http://classpath.wildebeest.org/planet/ if you want to keep up to date.

In any case, see you sooner or later on a free runtime running GNU Classpath ;)

cheers,
dalibor topic

[1] IKVM, Kaffe, Gcj, SableVM, JikesRVM, ... there are enough runtimes for everyone. Most of them take Java code to 'anywheres' where no WORA has been before. They are not ready for the masses, though. Chances are they won't work out of the box for you with your particular code. Chances are things will break. Chances are we'll have a good time fixing them, if you care about the fix.
[2] I've also seen a lot of horrible, unportable Java code. Code that still imports sun.* packages in 2004 should be burned on a stake with a pitch fork in it.
[3] http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980810S0019

Dalibor:

I believe that begging Sun to give away their 'crown jewels' is just a waste of time.

You are so right.

And one of the main reasons why Sun never will accept Strachan's idea is that they want to stop the JLCA (Microsoft Java Language Conversion Assistant). They have given up to protect Java (per force), now they want to protect the thousands of Java applications out there. An Open Source rt.jar would allow Microsoft to update the JLCA and making it possible to effortless port/convert Java apps to C# en masse.

Regards
Rolf Tollerud

They have given up to protect Java (per force), now they want to protect the thousands of Java applications out there.

Free software does not need artificial borders to keep it nicely separated into small, isolated islands. I don't want to have my Java code protected from .net, Perl, or whatever platform some marketing machine declares as the enemy-du-jour. I want to be able to take my investment in the code I wrote in Java as I move around platforms using the best tools for the job along with me.

cheers,
dalibor topic

interesting, but the open source zealots will never accept it.
They'll just smell blood and go for the kill, which is abandoning all control over the JLS and the Java brand to them so they can destroy the platform at their leasure and pleasure.

interesting, but the open source zealots will never accept it.They'll just smell blood and go for the kill, which is abandoning all control over the JLS and the Java brand to them so they can destroy the platform at their leasure and pleasure.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Sun is foolish to even respond to these losers. Give 'em an inch...

Man, for every time I've complained about shitty, slipshod code or non-existent documentation and been told to "fix it [my]self" I now get to hand it back to you fanatics. You want Java? Do it youself, you twit! The specification is OPEN - stop begging like spoiled children. You want Sun to give you Java because you DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY to design your own language. "13 years on" we still don't have an open-source alternative to C/C++ (and not likely to get one except "catchup" versions of Java and C#, without the latest features/bugfixes/improvements).

Pathetic, plain and simple. <baby_voice>I don't have a language with license terms I want. BAHHHHHHHH. Why won't Sun give me what I want. BAHHHHHHH I'm so tired of buffer overflows and interpreted, write-once code. Why can't I use a real language with my favorite licensing terms? BAHHHHHH</baby_voice>

You talk the talk with your "open source" fanaticism. Now, STFU and walk the friggin' walk. Ah, but this is where the "rubber hits to road," no?

Dereck, that was hilarious and classic! LOL

You want Java? Do it youself, you twit! The specification is OPEN - stop begging like spoiled children.

Noone I know in the free runtime community is begging Sun for anything. The only begging you see comes from people who do not implement their own runtimes.

You want Sun to give you Java because you DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY to design your own language. "13 years on" we still don't have an open-source alternative to C/C++ (and not likely to get one except "catchup" versions of Java and C#, without the latest features/bugfixes/improvements).

Sorry, kid, the world has changed since your last holiday outside. There are tons of open source languages implementations. Just because you are unable to fix something yourself, does not mean that the more capable developers people out there can't do it.

You talk the talk with your "open source" fanaticism. Now, STFU and walk the friggin' walk. Ah, but this is where the "rubber hits to road," no?

Well, of course, that's what's happening. People who don't like Sun's licensing terms are writing their own implementations, and trying to make them really good.

Nothing to see there. Move along. Go play somewhere else, kid.

Move along. Go play somewhere else, kid.

Very typical. We'll see how it "shakes out." Enterprise developers ("kids") don't care for your type of fanaticism. What works, works. BS walks, as does half-ass implementations. And endless fights over "who is free and who isn't." Sun has a practical license and gives tons to the "OSS community." For that they are lambasted.

Interestingly enough the people least attacked by fanatical OSS zealots are the Oracles who don't get in bed with these freaks. As I said - give 'em an inch.... Maybe it should be "Give 'em an inch and your job, your work, your cares about quality, are 'kidstuff' out of the realm of the _real_ developers."

Bah - losers, losers everywhere. And Topic is the first on every Java page. Hey, you even _have_ a job? No - don't answer that. Don't want to know. I'll go back to sucking my thumb. Offkayy?

Dereck, open source software (OSS) does not imply Free (freedom) software such as GNU project, and as noted by others, it does not mean free (of charge) either. IBM does OSS, Sun does OSS, Borland does OSS, and I am sure people can list a few more their favourite commercial vendors who do OSS too. And not so surprisingly, the sum of all the activities forms a kind of movement, a kind of "community". In this community, there are people who are paid to do OSS, who do OSS because they need to, and those who do it for fun.

So the sour attitude towards OSS in general seems to be rather misplaced. Further, calling names and degrading people only convey anger. They do not contribute much value to a rational conversation.

On the topic: having a cleanroom implementation of JDK or JRE that passes TCK will have many advantages to a programmer in general. E.g., for testing and comparison purposes. If it has a flexible license scheme, then it is be great too. It is easy to see why people favour the least effort road (having Sun on board) if it is possible, after all, the time for coding is a precious resource too. And when people like Classpath or GCJ who use their precious time to create some software for the community, I would prefer to give them encouragement and constructive comments.

Finally, on a slightly philosophical point: perhaps the reason why an open-source Java becomes important is because it is an attempt / effort to secure the current investment in it, i.e., 'future-proof'. If for some reasons, Sun disappears from the horizon, or simply loses interests in Java and decides to sell it to a less-capable company which essentially halts the progress of Java development, where do the rest of Java community go? Surely it can be argued that from what we have (JCP, other big vendors, and Java specs), it is likely that Java can live on. Some people might join force to steer the direction, produce a new implementation (which may be a cleanroom version too).

However, we also shouldn?t forget this openness we enjoy now, came from negotiation, not merely given.

Move along. Go play somewhere else, kid.

Very typical. We'll see how it "shakes out." Enterprise developers ("kids") don't care for your type of fanaticism.

I'm sorry to mislabel you as 'kid', then, I assume that hurt. From the way you chose your words, I assumed that you were another teenage /. troll.

Have fun,
dalibor topic

I don't think the problem is Sun should open source this or that. It would be enough if all specs and tcks where gpl'ed or something alike, so that anybody can build alternative implementations.

I don't think the problem is Sun should open source this or that. It would be enough if all specs and tcks where gpl'ed or something alike, so that anybody can build alternative implementations.

Could not agree more. What those noisy guys do not get from the current model is the power to destroy the Java, and they are crying for the option with a beautiful cover: open source.

Every methodology has its limitation. When somebody claims a methodology is perfect for everything, we need to dig out the purpose behind the claim.

I think Sun's Java is just free enough that there is not enough intrest in OS Java implementations.

IMO the best thing would be if Sun charged a reasonable price for the JDK (including a right to distribute the JRE). From those who are not intrested in a (realy) open but a bit advanced Java, Sun would get funds to finance their costs and the other part of the developers would engage more in Kafee/ClassPath.

Currently it's the opposite. Nobody pays the company Sun for what it does and at the same time nobody gives the OS guys the intrest and respect they deserve. For .Net it's of course different - from both sides.