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News: Bruno Souza on Sun Java Open Source controversy

  1. Bruno Souza has responded to Onno Kluyt of the JCP, who recently asked what the open-sourcing of Java would make possible that people can't already do today with Java.

    "Stop saying that 'Java is not Open Source,' and realize that 'Sun's implementation is not open source.' Even better, stop saying that 'Our implementation is open source,' it is not you know that, and this is OK, we're not blaming you, we want to work with you." Read Bruno Souza's answers to Sun's Onno Kluyt, who recently asked what the open-sourcing of Java would make possible that people can't already do today with Java.

    See the full article Bruno Souza to Sun: "Stop Saying That 'Our Implementation Is Open Source,' It Is Not"

    Threaded Messages (19)

  2. Don't Feed the Sys-Con Trolls[ Go to top ]

    That text by Bruno was written in November. Sys-Con are trolls. Doesn't make Bruno's comments any less perceptive, but I see no reason to treat it as a new controversy.
  3. Support for US[ Go to top ]

    We are support you dude. Nice that you post it. I am from Indonesia, and the leader of JUG Indonesia get problem with this too. We cannot make Java become the premier technology inside our country. We called it the "banci" technology. Just because the JVM is not like we want.

    For Sun: be a man. do it or not.

    Change the SCSL to SPL is a good way I think.

    Frans Thamura
    JUG Indonesia Leader.
  4. Support for US[ Go to top ]

    Thamura,

    Thanks for your support on Bruno claims, I also agreee with him in almost 100%. As you can see, I just dont want too much government politicals intervention in out IT field.

    PS: TSS, please let us to preview our posts !
  5. Support for US[ Go to top ]

    I am from Indonesia, and the leader of JUG Indonesia get problem with this too. Frans Thamura JUG Indonesia Leader.

    So Frans, you are THE JUG Indonesia Leader? Does your voice then, represensent JUG Indonesia community or it is just your own?
    We called it the "banci" technology.

    Frans, are you using this "banci" technology? Like making a living out of it? My understanding is that "banci" refers to a street term for those not manly enough to stand their own ground, though "banci" may officially mean bi-sex or trans-sex literally.

    So, if you are using this "banci" technology, even (in case of)providing commercial solutions on this "banci" technology, what does it make you??

    In case of (just in case, I am guessing here) that you do provide solutions based on this "banci" technology to your customers (again I assume you do have customers who pay you fees for solutions to their challenging situations, and I think that would be a fair guess, considering you call yourself the "JUG Indonesia Leader"), would it make your solutions provided as being less than on par? That is your solutions are "banci", to use your own term?? Then would this "banci" solutions of yours justify their fees charged?? Following that line, wouldn't you agree that charging sub-par solutions is an act of "banci", then??

    So, Frans, what does it make of you then?
    Just because the JVM is not like we want.For Sun: be a man. do it or not. technology.

    Well, the JVM specification is freely available. Its implementations are also freely available. It's source is open, whould that mean 'open source' then? I don't know. I do know the Sun's JVM source is freely and openly available, in the sense I can download it and look at it at my own pleasure pretty much free of charge (minus the cost of downloading it).

    So you are not happy with the JVM implementation by Sun. Fine. Then WHY do you not come up with your own implementation, then? Certainly the spec. is available (if you want to stick to the spec., it's there for you to peek anyway you like). Be manly enough to do your own, that way you can have it anyway you wish it be. Hey, you can even peek at what Sun has done on their JVM implementations, probably can even 'steal' some ideas from there, too. I am sure you can do it on your own, I doubt that "JUG Indonesia Leader" is lacking the technical skill to build his own JVM implementation. It's probably more an issue of willingness. So no need to call Sun JVM technology "banci", particularly if you are not "manly-enough" to do it yourself.

    At least Sun comes up with something decent for most of us using its JVM. It may not perfect for everyone (certainly not you, at it seems), and certainly has it own shortcomings. But it's FREE! As such I am very graceful to Sun for what they have done. I certainly use their JVM and find it quite decent for most of my work on Java related projects.
  6. Support for US[ Go to top ]

    Well, the JVM specification is freely available. Its implementations are also freely available. It's source is open, whould that mean 'open source' then? I don't know.

    Maybe you should look at the official definition of Open Source. For example here: http://www.opensource.org/
  7. Support for US[ Go to top ]

    Well, the JVM specification is freely available. Its implementations are also freely available. It's source is open, whould that mean 'open source' then? I don't know.

    Maybe you should look at the official definition of Open Source. For example here: http://www.opensource.org/

    While I tend to point people to the same place regarding Open Source, the only thing that makes it official is that they got the domain name ;-)

    There are several different things: Java, the JDK, the JRE, the runtime libraries, and so on. Each of them meets some of the characteristics of Open Source (again, according to the attributes listed on opensource.org), but I would agree that none is actually Open Source.

    If you want an open source Java implementation, you can always go donate your time and/or money to GNU Classpath.

    Peace,

    Cameron Purdy
    Tangosol, Inc.
    Coherence: Shared Memories for J2EE Clusters
  8. Support for US[ Go to top ]

    The biggest problem is not JVM itself - standart class library IS the problem.
  9. Don't Feed the Sys-Con Trolls[ Go to top ]

    Simon,

    Seens like I did not a good previous search, I am one month late !. Thanks for the links, I will read it.

    Anyway, my concerns is not so about Open Source Java or not, despite I fully supports any effort to convince Sun to do it. Actually I think there are many other issues brazilian government needs to address before any concerns about open source java. I know here is not the best place to discuss it, but I just finish this so here we go...

    Perhaps I should ask Bruno about this but I would like to understand why his brilliant community does not suggest other priorities to our government.

    I am not a lawyer, so certainly I am missing a lot.. Anyway, here are my points:

    Despite any legal issue (patents, intellectual property, etc) , I does not see how open source Java could help brazilian government to improve their Java projects. I mean,
    the focus right now should be to provide high quality solutions (code, documentaton, etc) that really meets the government business requirements.

    I have been working on dozens government projects and I have to admit the scary bureaucracy sometimes allow contractors
    to deliver "solutions" totally out of scope, infested with bugs and worst : without a clear business objective requirement.

    So there are problems with the government management / executives that are unable to define their own business objectives (not ideological objetives, please !) and also sometimes to select the best contractor. But we do have a lot of problems with some contractors too, unfortully in part because we (I hate to admit it) still have suspects contracts anywhere.

    Just look at any big state bank buying lots of J2EE costly licenses for web based applications (their use only a web container), 2 or 3 imcompatible enterprise portal solutions (in the same bank!) they never used or even big Risc servers instead of any other cheaper (and better) hardware/OS solution.

    Perhaps if we should (together with other actions) open our government services contracts to another markets to have a better competition between contractors we would improve a lot these IT projects and even reduce the corruption level. And we do have a lot of talented professionals, many lacking
    better opportunities to work / learn so we do not have to fell fear of any external competition cause we CAN work for/with them.

    Government should invest in education to improve IT worker skills instead of trying to reinvent the world software market.

    Open source is a revolution that there is no owner. Also, private companys and government usually needs legal guaranties to any issue their software can eventually cause. So who they should ask in case of bugs or any damage ? Our society is capitalist and seems like we will continue this way for many time until there is a better way.

    Conclusion, Open Source is great, but defintly is not a panacea. Our government should do their home work first and let the OOS comunity to keep doing their suberb job, including Bruno´s iniciative. If there are guys working
    on OSS iniciatives it should be totally apart from government objectives, at least until government solve their worst problems first. In the near term, our government really needs some talented IT executives to do the hard work and not pushing OSS iniciatives like a panacea for all their problems. Paying licenses for quality code and services is much better / cheaper than alowing sometimes simply incompetent and even suspect contractors working on top of OSS stack.

    Here another suggestions for issues Bruno mentioned :

    1) About software distribution and the law :

       There are some worldwide (realy) big corporations using comercial and open source software from many suppliers. Lots of licenses to manage. If they hire a new employee, all this guy need to do is to open an corporate wide instalation application, do an authentication and install all the software the company allows him to use.
       
       Despite what OS (Windows, Linux, etc) he prefeer to use, using this application he is able install, uninstall, know about software dependencies and being notified about software updates. So the company can manage their licenses, their employees can use what is needed based on their profiles and the software suppliers can make money or just be proud if they are open source.
       
       My questions: Why government does not try to manage their software licenses like the world biggest corporations already do ? If JRE is free, why is necessary to open source Java here ?

    2) About to port it to other systems:

       I dont know Brazilian Electronic Voting Machine architecture (the example Bruno cited) but if it is a specific hardware/OS, certainly a JVM porting iniciative is necessary. But from a business perspective, it does not make any sense for anyone, except the hardware vendor.. Ok, I know it was just an example but solutions architects should choose hardware based on open stardards or justify paying the cost for using "specific" (proprietary) stuff.
       
    3) Having the rights to use it in the future:

       
    The Brazilian Government is using Java for many of its systems. How can we guarantee that we'll have a compatible implementation of Java if (for example) a resolution from the US Administration forbids Sun to do business with Brazil?
       
       Man, if there are a little possibility of this happen in the future, its better to forget about doing business ;)
    The can sobretax our goods, give billions of subsidies to american companys and even blocking our goods but this is virtually impossible, unless brazilian government choose to sell sensible militar equipament to North Korea, Iran or Cuba, just to irritate US. Unfortully seens like there are some people thinking this way in our government, but since we already are a democracy, we will take care of this kind of guys in next elections...Beside this, there are some rules in world trade that even US should respect.
       
    Regards
  10. Java & Brazil[ Go to top ]

    No problem, Rodolfo - it's just a lesson to stop trusting Sys-Con as a news source...

    Your comments about Brazil are interesting. I'm no expert on this but find Brazil's current approach to ICT policy exciting. To understand why the Brazillian government cares about open source generally, I suggest the blog I wrote after hearing Gilberto Gil speak on the subject - it's about sovereignty, not just saving money.

    Having an open source policy seems a matter of good sense for a government and the question I have been asked by the Brazillian government has been whether the Java platform fits into that paradigm. My view is that it does (and that the Java approach to freedom pre-dates OSI) - the JCP provides sufficient openness and Sun provides sufficient underwriting - but that having a GPL-licensed JRE should give them even greater confidence in the platform.

    You comment on Javali - it's worth looking at the whole project. The JRE effort is just one of about 10 open source projects implemented for the Java platform in support of Brazil's ICT goals, so I think Bruno's project is already making the sorts of suggestions you'd like to the government.
  11. Save Java From Going Open Sores ![ Go to top ]

    I don't want Java to become a toy with handreds of kids
    messing up all those APIs, and guess what, if you don't have the nerve to learn every possible crap they will certainly come up with then you will be considered outdated.
    I want a solid professional source of control for Java, period.
    There are a lot of companies out there with solid libraries, scientifically based with industry strength and experience and they let only the top of their poeple design, manage, document and extend those libraries.
    I'm sick of all those spar time developed libs that nobody can count anymore and they are groing like an epidemy.
    Don't be misled, you'll be surprised at how many "Java" newbies have committed into open source projects.
    Java open source, that will be the perfect nightmare.

    Fidel.
  12. Java & Brazil[ Go to top ]

    No problem, Rodolfo - it's just a lesson to stop trusting Sys-Con as a news source...

    I got it ;)
    I suggest ... after hearing Gilberto Gil speak on the subject - it's about sovereignty, not just saving money.

    Gilberto Gil is certainly one of best musicians in the world . He deserves all our respect and admiration. But once in government, he is being worst than anyone could imagine. In fact is totally ironic having a liberal like he now preaching for government regulations in fields like journalism and even movies production. Just an example: here

    Actually, the real power lie with Mr. Jose Dirceu and his thoughts does mention clearly a strategy to cut costs (witch makes sense, after all).
    Having an open source policy seems a matter of good sense for a government

    I totally agree. But our history show us Brazil government policies has been wrong so I really hope they should give focus on his own weakness before having pushing OSS like a panacea for sovereignty, governance efficiency and democratic citizen access to IT.

    BTW, probably we pay the biggest taxes and interest rates in the world but we dont have any decent public service here (education, security, health, etc) so it is because this I am against our
    bureaucracy. So, let them at least reduce it first and after this we can start talk about hot topics like OSS...
    ...so I think Bruno's project is already making the sorts of suggestions you'd like to the government .

    I dont have any doubt of this but I think he could cut all these "government speak" from his talks. After all, he is THE Javamen here, he has all the merits of build our community and I hope he dont be so influenced by our political s like seems by reading his thoughts.
  13. Brazil[ Go to top ]

    Interesting, back to 86 (or 87?) when I first saw Brazil, I was very impressed about the description of the bureaucratic and authoritative state and since them I usually associate this film to the real Brazil state.

    Perhaps it was because at this time I was an "office boy" and having to visit each government office to get papers and more papers...

    But just now I realized Brazil (from the film perspective) is actually "an utopic place of freedom, happiness and life".

    It really can be this, I hope so...
  14. why should Sun open source their code?[ Go to top ]

    Why doesn't the community ask BEA or IBM to open source their VMs? What makes Sun's VM so special that Bruno et al. want to see it open sourced? It's certainly not the best VM out there, the code is already on the web and most of all what is it that the community gain in having Sun put it out with an OSS license? The specs are public anyone is free to implement a VM (eg. http://www.kaffe.org/). I think Rob Gingel put it well at the last javaone ('04), "if open source is the solution, then please tell me what the problem is".
  15. why should Sun open source their code?[ Go to top ]

    Actually if you read the original posting Bruno made back in November (which Sys-Con erroneously describe as 'recent') you'll find he is saying exactly this, and if you look at the Javali project you'll find it does indeed include finishing and certifying Kaffe and GNU/Classpath. And if you read any of the items this 'story' refers to you'll find it's actually answering Gingell's question as repeated by Kluyt.
  16. There is no fight to see here[ Go to top ]

    Simon's right.

    The Sys-Con article wraps it up as a hot bit of controversy, while the original is simply a nice write up of some of the problems that GNU Classpath helps solve, and it nicely accantuates the point that Sun does not need to hand over their crown jewels in order for a compatible open source Java implementation to happen, everyone would love to be compatible with Sun's implementation of Java, and so on. It is an invitation to work together to achieve those goals, and not an invitation to a fight.

    We had some good time discussing Sun's position, fears, and hopes with Onno Kluyt during the free runtimes summit in Boston in November, and I think it would be very nice to work together with Sun to get a free Java stack (Kaffe/GNU Classpath/GNU JAXP/gcjx/Tritonus/GNU Crypto/GNU regexp/JacORB/...) compatible with Sun's implementation.

    There shouldn't be just one open source implementation, of course... I'd love to see the same stack based on gcj, IKVM, JamVM, SableVM, IKVM, JikesRVM, ORP, Cacao, etc. being compatible with Sun's implementation. Kaffe could serve as a nice way to pave the road for other free runtimes to follow, and bring Java where no non-free VM has been before ... 'run anywhere'.

    I'm not a fan of pushing Sun around to do this or do that with their own IP. They may join the people working on free software java runtimes one day, and would be very welcome to do so, but in the mean time, it would be nice to work together to make our implementations mutually compatible.

    cheers,
    dalibor topic
  17. why should Sun open source their code?[ Go to top ]

    Why doesn't the community ask BEA or IBM to open source their VMs? What makes Sun's VM so special that Bruno et al. want to see it open sourced? It's certainly not the best VM out there, [...]".

    So who's JVM is the "best", BEA's or IBM's? I think Sun's JVM has come a LONG way and, unlike BEA's and IBM's, is up to date with respect to J2SE 5. If you look at BEA, all they wrote was the JVM, they still leverage Sun's class libraries so the HUGE class libraries is the problem.

    What would be nice if Sun open source the class libraries. They'd obviously still control the JVM spec (java) and the actual Java language that Javac compiles to bytecodes and the JVM interprets.

    The only "problem" I see is what happens when people start extending or changing the public interface of the core java.* hierarchy? Fixing bugs, optimizing internals is fine but once the public interfaces start changing then what? Can a Java implementation be called Java if it extends the class libraries as Microsoft did? I mean will Sun's Java J2SE certifcation tests fail?

    But *something* needs to be done to get Java distributed with all versions of Linux. Otherwise 5 years from now kids with computer science degrees will still be programming in 'C' or 'C++' because that's what all the Linux hackers use!
    Or worse they will use the Microsoft .Net Linux starter kit, better known as Mono(http://www.mono-project.com).
  18. Hello,

      Allow me to highlight the Viva - Open Source Java Strategy/Policy Links page online @ http://viva.sourceforge.net/strategy.html for some more insight into the ongoing open source Java debate .

      - Gerald

    ------------------------
    Gerald Bauer
    Thinlet World - http://thinletworld.com
  19. Hello,  Allow me to highlight the Viva - Open Source Java Strategy/Policy Links page online @ http://viva.sourceforge.net/blahblah.html for some more insight into the ongoing open source Java debate .  - Gerald

    I know you think your part of the solution but Open Source zealots really are part of the problem. Can you imagine people from Sun, a corporation, sitting down with you and getting anywhere? Can I ask, why doesn't your site ask IBM to Open Source *their* implementation? Why is Sun, Java's creator, the bad guy?

    Open Source Java is very tricky. Do you really want Java to become like Linux? RedHat Linux kernel/OS is different enough from SuSe Linux to be a real problem. RedHat even ported Linux 2.6 features into Linux 2.4. So RedHat Linux is it's own hacked OS.

    Now apply the above scenario to Java. Currently I'm 100% sure my code will run on IBM, BEA and Sun's JVM. We need a license that says you can do what you want with Java but to be called Java you need to pass all of Sun's JVM tests. What license would that be?
  20. Freedom on Java[ Go to top ]

    Open Source or Not. Java still Rock. But, why don't we make it as free as life. Will the future of java is Javali community rather than Java community?